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Seeing as how we have quite a few people who have joined the military out of their free will, I was wondering where all the people who have been forced into service are. Like many other Finns, I served in the army and the air force, but I wanted to be a bit special so I stayed for 12 months instead of the minimum of 6 and became an NCO  (we don't really get a cool hat).I think conscription is a valid system for some countries, like Finland. It allows us to have a large reserve which can be used in guerilla warfare in case Russia decides to go batshit insane and run over our professional forces. It also gave me something to do when I didn't accepted into university.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 13:50 |
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| # ? Nov 20, 2009 22:41 |
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Personally I think civil service should be mandated for 1 year after graduating high school (or whenever you drop out) before college. I'd allow people to choose between military, red cross, building homes or other construction jobs, that sort of thing. this would give everybody a basic set of skills like first aid, stress management, that sort of stuff, hell even just money management could be worked in.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 16:47 |
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Did my 9 months in the German Luftwaffe back in 2003. Three months of basic where we got worked over good, six months of sitting in an office pushing papers and (mostly successfully) evading anything physically challenging. If you can't tell, I think the last six months were pretty much a waste of time, and I think the German military at large could do without us draftees. But I support the draft for getting people through basic training, because I think it cracked me out of my shell, improved my attitude and gave me something that felt like an achievement. It's too bad all that good drill went to immediate waste afterward. (Also, we allegedly can't get rid of the draft because we need the cheap labor of the objectors to keep our hospitals and retirement homes running. Dunno how true that is, though.)
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 18:23 |
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Elendil004 posted:Personally I think civil service should be mandated for 1 year after graduating high school (or whenever you drop out) before college. I'd allow people to choose between military, red cross, building homes or other construction jobs, that sort of thing. This is pretty much exactly what I think.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 18:26 |
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My father and I argued all the time about this in the US. I figured any military professional who went through the draft era would be violently against it, but he believed that it brought in a huge variety of people with skills and experiences that volunteer recruiting never would have. Also he believed that the discipline problems were over-exaggerated (keep in mind he was Navy, not a grunt), and the fact that a fairly true cross-section of the American population* was involved in a war would help restrict military adventurism. I think we get a broad variety of skills from our NG and Reserve component (as anyone who've seen them improvise and build some poo poo up can attest), and I don't think the discipline problems will be manageable considering the mammoth ones already involved in managing people who actually volunteered. And you need only see how quickly and easily the American population jumped on the last two wars to disprove his last point. *excepting the usual rich pricks and future Republican politicians that always dodged it, of course
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 19:05 |
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I think mandatory conscriptions like Finland's 6 month service is outdated. It's great if you want to call up vast numbers of minimally trained reserves on short notice, but minimally trained reserves are ineffective at fighting a modern war. Maybe it's still prudent for Finland or Israel, given the threats that face those nations, but it makes little sense for US or UK, and I think the usefulness is highly debatable in Italy, Germany, etc.Elendil004 posted:Personally I think civil service should be mandated for 1 year after graduating high school (or whenever you drop out) before college. I'd allow people to choose between military, red cross, building homes or other construction jobs, that sort of thing. grover fucked around with this message at Nov 07, 2009 around 20:22 |
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 20:17 |
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Gatac posted:Did my 9 months in the German Luftwaffe back in 2003. Three months of basic where we got worked over good, six months of sitting in an office pushing papers and (mostly successfully) evading anything physically challenging. Was the office work your own choice or does it happen to all conscripts? In the Finnish system everyone starts their specialized training after basic, so jaegers and the like would still spend quite a lot of time in combat training, while scribes would be the ones pushing papers.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 20:53 |
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Hagetaka posted:... the fact that a fairly true cross-section of the American population* was involved in a war would help restrict military adventurism. This is, I think the most compelling argument for conscription. Opposition to the Vietnam War only became massive once the middle class got worried about having to become personally involved. There will always be the well-connected who end up in cushy posts flying interceptors and polishing their helmet for inspection stateside, but we don't legalize theft because some fraction will get away with it anyway. As it stands in America, poverty is the new draft and the owning class doesn't have to give a gently caress where the army gets sent because it's not them that's going. To our foreign readers, what were interactions like between the conscripts and the "lifers"?
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 01:53 |
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The Finnish conscript system is probably the most inefficient and most ridiculous way to maintain an army. The training is outdated and generally laughable. Completely wasted a year of my life there. There really is no good argument for a conscript army. It's about time this country got rid of it as well.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 02:50 |
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The United States fights entirely too many foreign wars for us to morally justify mandatory civil service. I'd personally hate our country if we did that. gently caress that noise. edit: To clarify, it would be hosed up to conscript people and say "here's your gear! Go fight this war for a year and we'll be done with you!" Also, it would cost an epic amount of money to conscript everyone coming out of highschool. It's not feasible and somewhat retarded in my opinion. I guess I'm not surprised to see a coast guard push that poo poo (just kidding (maybe not)). Railroad Player fucked around with this message at Nov 08, 2009 around 02:57 |
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 02:54 |
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grover posted:Why not just mandate everyone join Boy Scouts and/or teach that stuff in high school? Let the free market determine the other stuff. We don't need unskilled conscripts trying to build homes, professionals should be doing that. Assuming the conscripts are getting paid for their work, it would probably be more economical, as professionals would work faster and better. Every job site can use a guy to haul poo poo around and learn basic skills. Plus the boy scouts suck and are god loving faggot-haters.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 02:57 |
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I'd be fine with some level of mandatory vocational training for anyone not attending college, including high school dropouts. The issue is how to punish non-compliance. Lack of voting priviledges probably won't mean two shits to most people. edit- also it's about time the loving US government mandated registration for 18-year old females as well as males. Why isn't there a lawsuit about it already?
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 03:00 |
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The only thing that should be mandatory in the US is making fat people hop on treadmills that power our grids. Then once they lose the weight they can leave. It's a p good idea. We could wean ourselves off of coal.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 03:02 |
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Railroad Player posted:The only thing that should be mandatory in the US is making fat people hop on treadmills that power our grids. Then once they lose the weight they can leave. It's a p good idea. We could wean ourselves off of coal. what if they have bad knees you didn't address this issue
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 03:03 |
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All fat people have bad knees.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 03:06 |
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Railroad Player posted:All fat people have bad knees. untrue some fat people don't have knees
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 03:07 |
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I'm sure some form of locomotive exercise could be engineered Maybe a warehouse full of Wii Fits
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 03:10 |
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Kuule hain nussivan posted:Was the office work your own choice or does it happen to all conscripts? In the Finnish system everyone starts their specialized training after basic, so jaegers and the like would still spend quite a lot of time in combat training, while scribes would be the ones pushing papers. My own choice, and I do know people who went on to more combat-y jobs or went into maintenance or crap like that. I was just too weedy - scored near perfect on the mental aptitude test, but the quarter after I was drafted they raised the physical standards so I wouldn't have gotten in - for much else, but basically the vibe I picked up from all the draftees in my unit afterward is that most jobs they have you do are this kind of thankless bitchwork. Six months aren't enough to get someone really up to speed, and knowing that that young idiot you're supervising will be gone afterwards to be replaced by a new, fresh idiot doesn't seem to be much of a motivation to teach us poo poo. Actually, it's really only three months: that's when you get the next batch of draftees in, and you need to take care of those, so by then you gotta have the first batch doing something that won't give you headaches. So, let me rephrase: I'm sure there are jobs where draftees who are in them for six months are actually useful, the problem is placing all the guys they can't use for those jobs. Maybe I have an overly negative view here, as paperpushing is much the same whether you're in or out of the military, but that's how I experienced it.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 09:08 |
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Ultimately, I think conscription is not morally justifiable. If a country wants to claim to be a free society, it has to allow peaceful dissent. Conscription denies this right. It is absurd to say that someone is free to believe a specific war is immoral, but forced to fight that war. If they refuse to serve and are imprisioned, they are being imprisoned for beliefs that are supposedly acceptable. If they cave in and fight a war they are morally opposed to, this is a particularly wrong type of forced labor. Because of this, I would hold that only social pressure should be used to encourage enlistment in the military.Hagetaka posted:I'd be fine with some level of mandatory vocational training for anyone not attending college, including high school dropouts. How about no one who can receive any sort of government benefits (welfare, unemployment, etc) before they have either completed your training program or had 2 years of work experience. If they can find decent work without it, then they don't need it. If not, then they should be getting training rather than any other benefit.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 14:05 |
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That's why I would offer non military options, like construction or red cross, or hell just be a janitor or a trash guy for a year whatever.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 14:30 |
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Yeah, I've always been a fan of a mandatory civil service requirement. I was always thinking 3 years... that grey zone from 18-21 after graduating high school. Before you go to college, you have to finish 3 years of civil service. Military, Postal Service, Works Project Administration, Americorps, Urban Renewal, or some kind of Green/Recycling gig. That way you have your choice on how to serve, but everyone serves. The problem nowadays in America is you have too many young people unengaged and uninterested in their government. I think that's a lot of the reason you saw such protest over Vietnam and less protest today. Frankly, today, for most kids, its not their rear end on the line, so what do they care? Make people feel invested in their government, make them feel like they have a stake in it, and you get more involvement and an overall better system. Roman citizens dedicated a full 15 years to the Republic. Of course, when they became an empire, they handed out a lot of free bread and slaughtered people in the Coliseum for the entertainment of the unemployed masses... hmmmm...
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 14:45 |
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andromache posted:Roman citizens dedicated a full 15 years to the Republic. Of course, when they became an empire, they handed out a lot of free bread and slaughtered people in the Coliseum for the entertainment of the unemployed masses... hmmmm... I'd watch that, hell I'd probably pay
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 14:47 |
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I did 12 months in the norwegian army's 2nd (of one!) mechanized infantry battalion and almost did a 3 month deployment to afghanistan but the government withheld the funds for the mission so we all got discharged instead! The norwegian armed forces will call up something like 50,000 people for conscription. Out of those 50k, MAYBE at most 6-8k will get called in, and out of those, at most 4-5k will actually do anything even resembling the 12 months you're supposed to do. And out of those 4-5k, maybe, oh, 2k will get posted to what is laughably called a combat unit. The rest are set to do menial lovely tasks like slave for the official army/navy/air force band (seriously a friend of mine carried their instruments for a year), or help one of our 15,000 majors redecorate their comfy offices where they sit all day and do nothing particular. For the vast, vast majority, going into the armed forces is a complete joke and an utter waste of 12 months that could be better spent going to school or having a job. Probably the best reason against doing your year in the army is the fact that you will be paid less than a murderer serving a "life sentence" in prison gets for his daily allowance or whatever its called. There were more than a few people called up at the same time as me who had to leave their steady jobs for a year and went from 25k NOK a month to 3,5k NOK a month. The whole point of conscription thing is to educate people in the army for a year and then send them into the Home Guard where you'll get called up every year for drills and poo poo but neither branch has enough money to do anything properly and barely anyone get called into the home guard anymore, and even if you do chances are you'll get a moldy uniform that you put into your attic and then you never hear from them again. Our armed forces are a joke and any sufficiently oil-hungry country could take out our entire armed forces with 3 well placed bombs. And they wouldn't even have to be big bombs. God I have so many stories
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| # ? Nov 14, 2009 01:41 |
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