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This is my piece of poo poo cheapo car, I picked it up for £50 about 18 months ago because MY WIFE was going to start learning to drive. Dumbass mistake #1. Click here for the full 798x600 image. I got it so cheap because the previous owner thought the drive train was about to poo poo itself. Mysteriously the scary rattling sound stopped when I cut the broken wheeltrims hubcaps to you foreigners off & drove away cackling. I then parked it up & waited for my wife to start learning, and a couple of weeks ago I started trying to get it back on the road. So far I've done a full service & tracked down what must be the rarest radial tyre size on the planet (Citroen  ) then yesterday I took it for an MOT. (Mandatory yearly inspection)  The important bits are as follows: Colour: purple Both headlights out of alignment D/S front brake binding both rear brake hoses deteriorated Colour: purple one of the brake pipes running front to rear is corroded Handbrake is poo poo (43% efficiency) It even came with a set of advisories, which are non-failure warnings, I've got the following: Fan belt wear pulley noises Surface corrosion front brakes Surface corrosion exhaust system So, not bad for being mis-treated by an idiot, then purchased & left to sit by another idiot. I've decided I'd like to put it back on the road rather than scrap it, so here goes. I've never done drum brakes before, or bled brakes, so this'll be a learning experience for me, plus it's an excuse to buy some proper tools, as most of mine are bent screwdrivers. Shopping list: Front discs & pads Rear, won't know until I get the drums off, but I'll need new nuts, thrust washers, dust caps minimum Hardline to replace corroded Rear flexible brake lines one-man brake bleeding kit. I've ordered most of that, best make a start on the rear drums, then I'll know what else to buy.  Click here for the full 800x600 image. Dust cap, the wheel actually seats on this. According to Haynes, purveyor of fine automobile manuals, I need to gently work this off with a screwdriver & hammer.  Now this I'm familiar with.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 14:15 |
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| # ? Nov 20, 2009 22:41 |
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40 minutes later... Click here for the full 800x600 image. "Replace if damaged" Yup, glad I ordered a new pair. What does that reveal?  Click here for the full 800x600 image. Nut, edge of which has been driven into that little gap there. Please fill in the technical terms yourselves, I do not know them. Manual says to use a coldchisel to clear that out then undo the nut. Out come the bent screwdrivers again, I have no coldchisels. I've picked up a new 1/2" socket set, because I needed one, plus a proper old fashioned bendy torque wrench. Unfortunately the longest bar in the set is still only about 12", not nearly enough to budge this nut. I'm now stuck, as I either need a fairy godmother to turn up with an impact wrench, or a piece of pipe to give me a bit more leverage. Suggestions please, do I need to go out & buy a 2 foot breaker bar, or is there a trick to this? Also, anyone doubting my idiocy should know these photo's were delayed 20 minutes while I figured out how to prime the handpump on my tub of swarfega. Edit: I'm off to buy an 18" breaker bar, I found one near me for £12. Cakefool fucked around with this message at Nov 07, 2009 around 14:40 |
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 14:23 |
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Yeah, you're on the right track. If it still won't come undone, either find a fatter person to lean on the breaker bar, or see if you can wedge it against the ground and drive the car a foot or so to crack it off.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 15:12 |
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InitialDave posted:Yeah, you're on the right track. If it still won't come undone, either find a fatter person to lean on the breaker bar, or see if you can wedge it against the ground and drive the car a foot or so to crack it off. Found a 2-footer for £2 more:  Click here for the full 800x600 image. That was buttery, it just came right off. I'll try science more often. I have now purchased 50% of the curbweight in tools I'm sure. Right, handbrake off, handbrake hurriedly back on, chock opposite wheel, handbrake off again. Drum rotates freely & feels loose but won't come forward. I understand the shoes can wear a lip inside the drum & that's what's stopping it coming off. Time to consult the Haynes again (who am I kidding, without it I'd be on fire or torn in half now). Haynes says to: "...fully slacken the handbrake cable adjuster nut, to obtain maximum free play in the cable." Of course, this being such an obvious thing, they have neglected to give me a pretty picture for this step.  Click here for the full 800x600 image. Am I right in thinking the corroded-to-death metal nut is the adjuster I need?
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 15:27 |
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No, that'd be the fitting for your brake fluid line. Don't touch that. The handbrake adjusters are usually where the cables attach to the handbrake lever inside the car. remove the trim from around the base of the lever and it should be obvious.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 15:49 |
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SlapActionJackson posted:No, that'd be the fitting for your brake fluid line. Don't touch that. The fluid lines enter the drums at the top, you can just see it at the top. The book says the adjusters are at the drums, but yeah my previous BX & Xsara was adjusted at the handbrake. edit: there's a flimsy rusted metal locknut & a big plastic nut. I've loosened off the locknut and the plastic nut spins freely vs the drum, but not vs the cable. 2nd edit: I've got to change either drums, shoes or both, and then later I'll be doing the brakelines, am I better leaving any kind of adjustment until I've done the lines & fluid, or can I just crack on with the drums regardless? Cakefool fucked around with this message at Nov 07, 2009 around 16:14 |
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 16:10 |
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Are you sure about that? I know the French had a penchant for odd automotive design, but that bottom line really, really looks like a fluid line, and that top one really, really looks like a bowden cable. It also occurred to me that they might mean the star adjuster nuts in the drum. You can try that - access should be through a slit in the back or a lug hole in the front. Edit: Assuming you don't need to drive it anywhere between replacing the drums/shoes and lines, I'd just adjust it all at the end of the job. SlapActionJackson fucked around with this message at Nov 07, 2009 around 16:21 |
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 16:16 |
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I've got nothing to currently offer but I always love to see someone get into the world of DIY. I'll help on any advice I can offer
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 16:22 |
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Yes, the lower one is the handbrake cable. This is what it looks like inside: Click here for the full 640x480 image. And yes, if you're replacing bits, do all your adjustments at the end unless you really need to drive the car to go get parts. Hold the cable outer still, wind the adjuster up/down to get the right tension, then fasten the locknut against it.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 16:37 |
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Huh. loving French.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 16:38 |
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Right, just to confirm where I am before I let the brake equivalent of magic smoke out, there are two pipes going into the drum, one rigid one at the top, one thicker, flexible one at the front. The thicker one has the locknut & plastic nut, as shown before, runs to the centre of the car & disappears inside, roundabouts the handbrake area  The hard line, the one I've not touched yet, runs up the suspension arm, joins to the perished rubber hose I'll need to replace when it turns up, then becomes rigid (hurr hurr) again for the journey up to the engine bay, whereabouts the master cylinder lurks. Pics, sorry for the failing light but I have not the luxury of a lit garage.  Click here for the full 800x600 image. Top of the drum, hardline, hydraulic line by my estimation.  Click here for the full 800x600 image. Here you can see the hardline disappears up, loops back, becomes a rubber line. Below that, the thicker handbrake cable as I understand it.  Click here for the full 800x600 image. Finally, shot of the handbrake cable. Also, the tube of copper grease I bought turns out to be copper silicone gasket sealer, because the boxes are almost identical. Huh. Edit: InitialDave to the rescue. Now I need to poke it with a screwdriver to back the shoe off apparently
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 16:48 |
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Cakefool posted:Edit: InitialDave to the rescue. Forgive the doublepost, but this is live action French car maintenance right here.  Click here for the full 640x480 image. Am I right in thinking I need to get the screwdriver through a bolt hole, engage the hole circled & push inwards to get the shoe out of its groove?
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 17:11 |
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Cakefool posted:Now I need to poke it with a screwdriver to back the shoe off apparently The cable pulls at the bottom of the internal lever, which pivots on a spacer just below the slave cylinder to push the upper end of the rear shoe out into the drum. The opposing force, via the spacer, pushes the upper end of the front shoe out into the drum. There is a limiter peg near the bottom on the internal lever which prevents the shoe retracting more than it should, regardless of how slack the cable is. With a fully-slackened cable, turn the drum so that a wheel bolt hole is at about the 4-5 o'clock position (UK passenger side - 7-8 o'clock on UK driver side). Poking something through the hole onto the handbrake internal lever (not the shoe itself) and giving it a smack should see the lever pop back behind the shoe, letting the shoes back off to their absolute limit. You should now be able to pull the drum, and indeed pretty much have to - I don't think it's possible to reposition the lever's limiting peg correctly behind the shoe without having the drum off.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 17:11 |
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Cakefool posted:Forgive the doublepost, but this is live action French car maintenance right here. No, that little "lump" you can just see on the inner lever.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 17:12 |
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Ah, I'm having a go at the wrong arm, more like  Click here for the full 640x480 image. Wallop inwards? Edit: that'll be tomorrow, It's dark & I think I need to slacken the handbrake cable some more. Cakefool fucked around with this message at Nov 07, 2009 around 17:22 |
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 17:17 |
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Cakefool posted:Ah, I'm having a go at the wrong arm, more like
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 17:25 |
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Round 2 will begin about 8am GMT, for anyone not dying of boredom out there
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 17:29 |
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I'm always surprised at how good these MOT records are. Most of the private inspection garages around here would never find a weak handbrake. I wonder how they arrived at that particular efficiency figure.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 18:00 |
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Seat Safety Switch posted:I'm always surprised at how good these MOT records are. Most of the private inspection garages around here would never find a weak handbrake. I wonder how they arrived at that particular efficiency figure. My handbrake hasn't worked in years and the inspection shop here never says anything about it. I get my car inspected at the ghetto exhaust shop, they just make me pay for new exhaust hangers and gaskets every once in a while and ignore anything else.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 23:44 |
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Seat Safety Switch posted:I'm always surprised at how good these MOT records are. Most of the private inspection garages around here would never find a weak handbrake. I wonder how they arrived at that particular efficiency figure. Probably a similar sort of system to how they do foot brake tests here (Australia). They have a thing that sits on the passenger seat (accelerometer and poo poo probably) and another thing that goes on the brake pedal which I assume is a pressure sensor. They drive it and hit the anchors. End result either a pretty graph or a boring number. French cars have always been a mystery to me. They just seem so different somehow. You are doing well. Drums are dead easy once you have done them a few times. To be honest I use three tools for assembly / disassembly for shoe service. A screwdriver, a pair of needle nose pliers and my hands. Of course for pulling off the hydraulics etc. I use spanners. We had a cheap car for my other half to learn to drive. I'm in the process of stripping it for parts currently. The car I was driving is being given to a relative in exchange for some house repairs. To be honest they are repairs I was going to do anyway, but he offered and I just want to get the car out of the yard. I would have given it to him if he had asked. Our current car is a bit of a problem. Now that we have moved interstate, it is on the prohibited list of vehicles for her to drive when she gets off her learners permit on to her provisional license. Apparently V8s are not good for new drivers here. Even a not-powerful one in a luxobarge trying to pass as a sports model. Back on topic. While you have all that poo poo apart on your wheels are you going to inspect and repack the wheel bearings? The headlights and binding brake should be poo poo easy to fix. The other ones need parts but are also easy. Go for it man, and give your missus a car to track and trash, er I mean learn to drive in.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 23:56 |
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Give the drum a few solid whacks with a 2 kilo mallet.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 01:19 |
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Brake & I assume handbrake power are tested with a 'reverse' rolling road. Wheels are bought up to speed with the rollers, then brakes are applied. Braking power is measured thusly. Handbrake is tested from a stop. It's fairly obvious now I haven't given the cable any slack, I need to unseize the plastic adjuster nut without loving it. Worst case I need new handbrake cables. The plan is for the missus to learn in this, get a few months driving under her belt, then swap into my 206 wagon, cause she's 5 months pregnant & the wagon is safer. I'll take over this for a while, then I might accidentally find a Volvo 240 for sale somewher. Guess all that wrenching experience will come in handy huh? Anyway, work will get back underway after my healthy nutritious breakfast of fried eggs & fried leftover cheesy mash.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 07:39 |
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Right, 3in1 penetrant (which smells like bugspray btw) has done it's magic overnight, so I had at the adjuster nut with molegrips & spanner. I worked it back & forth over the quarter turn until it freed up then gradually worked it up the threads. Click here for the full 800x600 image. I got some adjustment, then gave it some welly, pushing the handbrake lever behind the shoe as Initial Dave described:  Click here for the full 800x600 image. Success!  Click here for the full 800x600 image.  Click here for the full 800x600 image. How the gently caress Spiders got inside my drums I'll never know, I can only assume they crawled in on the assembly line during one of many periods of industrial action. Drum off, looks like there's plenty of metal left there & no sign of cracking. I'm glad I haven't ordered drums yet, I hadn't realised the bearings were in there, another thing I'd have had to buy & probably pay someone to press in. I figured out the shoe retaining pin/spring jobby, Haynes says to turn the nut with pliers, in fact it's easier to push the nut & turn it from the back. So then I levered the leading shoe off, flicked the spring off & withdrew the whole assembly, revealing a leaky cylinder.  Click here for the full 800x600 image. This here will have to be fixed, but nothing I've seen so far shows why the handbrake performance is so poor, I can only assume poor adjustment/slack cables. I'm considering ordering a pair of new cables, lets see how much they are.. £8.75 each from GSFcarparts. I'm tempted, just for peace of mind, I'd hate to put all this back together & fail again because of sloppy cables. Wheel cylinders are £16 each, do I need to buy or re-build?
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 09:30 |
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Being purple fails the MOT?
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 09:38 |
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Cakefool posted:Wheel cylinders are £16 each, do I need to buy or re-build?
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 11:08 |
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The left (first) cylinder is completely prolapsed, there's no hope for that. The second looked good, but oozed from a tiny crack when I started on the brake hoses. 2 new cylinders it is then. While I was at the other side, I found why the braking at the rear may be poo poo:  Click here for the full 800x600 image. Inferior French Adhesives  Click here for the full 800x600 image. RHS Handbrake cable. The plastic adjuster nut is missing, it collapsed under force & the dog carried it off. This is why I couldn't adjust the right hand side, Had to take it off at the handbrake end. I need 1 handbrake cable now, a pair of cylinders & a complete set of shoes. I started on the brake hoses, reasoning that even if I don't have the parts I can make sure they all come off at least. I didn't count on needing to buy a brakehose spanner, that's a job for tomorrow. Any ideas how I size a brakehose spanner? I managed to get 2 of the spring-plate-holding-nuts loose, the front right & rear left. The rear right is starting to round off so I've soaked it & left it. The front right I physically can't get to -  Click here for the full 800x600 image. This but on the other side - I can't even get a picture. I eventually found a way to get the spanner to it, but can't put any pressure on. I've soaked them as well, I'll have another go tomorrow. Next up is borrow a 2nd set of axle stands & start on the front brakes. I've done fronts before on another car, nothing too difficult there, right?
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 13:03 |
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Cakefool posted:Any ideas how I size a brakehose spanner? Put a normal open-ended spanner over the bit you need to undo. Whichever one fits best is the size you need. Don't be tempted to use that spanner to actually undo the brake hose, it'll probably just chew it up.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 14:23 |
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Right, I've ordered £150 worth of brake bits, which feels stupid but the body & engine are in pretty good condition so it's an investment right?  I need to At some point in the future this'll need a clutch job, I think I'll need to go somewhere with an engine hoist. I'll have a look at the gear linkage as well then, it's a bit sloppy. I also need to have a go at adjusting the headlights up - it sounds a silly little thing to worry about but it's a failure point & I've no real idea how to adjust them properly - what pattern I'm expecting to see. Ah well. The manual recommends 'Total Universal brake & clutch fluid', but doesn't say how much. Will dot4 do? about a litre to flush & bleed the whole system? Cakefool fucked around with this message at Nov 08, 2009 around 14:31 |
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 14:28 |
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Cakefool posted:Any ideas how I size a brakehose spanner? If you're replacing the pipe, jut snap/cut it off near the union and get a socket or ring spanner on it. One tool I have that's really useful for these is a Stanley adjustable spanner-cum-molegrip. It still has parallel faces like a spanner, but can be clamped really tight onto things - the only trouble is that at 10", it's a bit unwieldy in tight spaces. quote:Next up is borrow a 2nd set of axle stands & start on the front brakes. I've done fronts before on another car, nothing too difficult there, right?
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 14:31 |
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InitialDave posted:If you're replacing the pipe, jut snap/cut it off near the union and get a socket or ring spanner on it. Thanks, you've reminded me I'm replacing the pipes either side of the most hard-to-reach one, both flex & hardline, so I'll just butcher that one off when I get the replacement bits.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 14:34 |
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Update: Not dead. All the brake bits I've ordered turned up, but I forgot to order new hub nuts, so I'll need those before I finish. No-one near me has or has heard of a brake spanner, not even when shown the new hose. My french-car-go-to-guy said molegrips, so I bought a new pair, I had to hammer the last pair back together. I've got an eezibleed kit for the brakes, that'll make that job less hassle. I've also been told Dot3, so I've got some of that waiting. I tried to make a start on the front discs & pads while I was waiting for bits to turn up, the discs are held in with a torx screw, requiring a T30 impact driver, guess what bits aren't in my impact driver set? I ended up buying a T30 bit for my old 3/8" socket set & hitting that. The screw is chewed so I need a replacement but it came out. The pads are held in with 2 long pins, requiring parallel pin punches, yet another thing I'll have to buy as screwdrivers aren't doing this at all. This job has ceased to be amusing, but I'll have to finish it now, it needs reassembly before they could even drag it off for scrap
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| # ? Nov 14, 2009 12:02 |
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Cakefool posted:
That's because it's not called a brake spanner. It is a Tubing Spanner. Googling the American phrase "tubing wrench" will show you exactly what you need... Hope this helps. I know how much I love mine. 3/8 and 7/16 double ended. Awesomeness. Molegrips to install anything new make AI cry. Molegrips are for deconstructing things...
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| # ? Nov 14, 2009 23:46 |
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Sponge! posted:Molegrips to install anything new make AI cry. Molegrips are for deconstructing things... Like the frozen nuts on my solid lines in the Datsun. 30 years of corrosion. Edit: what stud pattern is that? 3x100? Knowing the French it's probably even more unusual; 3x111 or something MisterSparkle fucked around with this message at Nov 15, 2009 around 00:38 |
| # ? Nov 15, 2009 00:28 |
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In the future, put the wheel on before you crack the axle nut. It makes it a lot easier. Also, 6-foot long iron pipe "pussy bars" are dirt cheap at the hardware store and make any ratchet or breaker a piece of cake to use.
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| # ? Nov 15, 2009 03:17 |
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Sponge! posted:That's because it's not called a brake spanner. It is a Tubing Spanner. Googling the American phrase "tubing wrench" will show you exactly what you need... Aren't they called flare nut wrenches?
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| # ? Nov 15, 2009 04:50 |
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Raluek posted:Aren't they called flare nut wrenches? That's the correct term. I've done brake lines the easy cheater way, where you use a standard open wrench and clamp it down on the outside of the wrench with some Vice-Grips. It works well, up to a point.
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| # ? Nov 15, 2009 09:00 |
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So, this kind of thing? I've not started on the hoses yet so I've still time to get one. The hold up yesterday was not having anything to drift the caliper/pad pins out with, then not having the right sized allen key to get the rear wheel cylinders out - looks like a 4.5 allen, I have like a million partial sets of allen keys, non containing 4.5. As I write this I realise there is a complete set of T-handle allen keys on the shelf next to me. At eye level. gently caress. Anyway, I need a new disc retaining screw for the front I hosed yesterday, any idea where I'd get that without paying Citroen £10 each?
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| # ? Nov 15, 2009 10:42 |
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Cakefool posted:Anyway, I need a new disc retaining screw for the front I hosed yesterday, any idea where I'd get that without paying Citroen £10 each? If you're really that bothered, any countersunk set screw the right size would be fine. What thread is it?
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| # ? Nov 15, 2009 11:33 |
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Cakefool posted:So, this kind of thing? Yep! That one pictured is a bi-hex style, so it looks even odder than it should. But as long as it surrounds more than 180 degrees of the flare-nut in question, all is well! Edit: for the price, you could just buy a normal 10/11 metric 12 point boxwrench and spend a few minutes with the cutoff wheel and the bench grinder and make your own... Clamp it in a vise and heat and bend the handle for full effect...
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| # ? Nov 15, 2009 13:22 |
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More content. I was describing my fuckupery to someone at work, a landrover owner, and he had a pearl of advice for me. "Man up" So, new plan, identify anything in my way, remove it. If something is not co-operating, butcher it off & replace it. Front brakes:  Click here for the full 800x600 image. Pair of big horizontal pins need drifting out to remove the pads. Pack of pin punches purchased, this easy little job will be my half-way incentive for getting the rear brakes done. Rear brakes:Half my trouble back here was lack of access, so I had a good look around & removed the rear shocks & spare wheel carrier, much better. There's a short hardline on the rear swingarm, one each side. I need to keep these if possible, they're ok. After getting better access the rhs one came off pretty easy:  Click here for the full 800x600 image. Not a lot of fluid leakage, not too worried anyway, I'll be flushing the entire system. You can just about see the new handbrake cable there, not too hard to fit overall. With that out of the way I removed the cylinder bleed screw completely, giving free access to the bolts on the back. I've spent the whole of last week trying to find what fitting these are, in the dark after work. In the daylight it's obvious they're a 5mm caphead, so I brushed the mank out, hammered an allen key in & went to work. The cylinder took a little hammering from the rear to come out, then it popped free with a jaunty little 'spang', spraying brakefluid everywhere. Lovely. On to the other side, access hampered more by the exhaust. I've soaked the hangers so I should be able to move that out the way shortly, I managed to get the end of the long damaged hardline free & have started unclipping that all the way along to the master cylinder. The point of damage looks like someone hosed up jacking it up, I'll hammer the sill back into shape when all the lines are free. I've come in for a cuppa & to warm my hands up, then I'm back out, next jobs are: 1/ Remove the long hardline from the master cylinder, offer the new one up 2/ Remove both flexi hoses, the nut holding one to the length-of-the-axle hardline is completely rounded off so I'll see about butchering it off & replacing the whole hardline, an extra £20 but cheaper than failing the MOT again. 3/ remove lhs cylinder 4/ find new bolts for replacing the cylinders  Click here for the full 751x600 image. This is the rounded nut, the hardline is good but if the nuts hosed I need a new line. 
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| # ? Nov 20, 2009 11:04 |
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