|
The only time I watched Reloaded and Revolutions was in theaters back when they first came out, I was much younger than and I didn't remember the story line so I thought it'd be nice to watch these two again. I just finished the two movies and there were still some things that I just didn't understand. I was hoping someone out there could tell me about the storyline. What were the purpose of the ships, such as the ones Morpheus had? I think their purpose was to roam around and to free people from the Matrix, right? Why was Morpheus' ship seemingly understaffed (no gunmen), whereas in Revolutions, we see that the other captain (not Niobe, not Morpheus) had a medical staff, gunmen, weapons, etc? Why can't the people enter the Matrix from Zion again? Why do the machines have to drill through the entire Earth to get to Zion? Why not just barge in through the front door? Surely the machines must know how to get there if they've destroyed Zion five or six previous times already. The main commander in charge mentioned something about a defense system, but why does this matter to the machines when they can just make more bodies to throw against it? Eventually the humans would be overwhelmed from the sheer amount of machines throwing themselves against the gates, ammo would run out, or something. Why exactly does the Architect give Neo the option to save 23 people to rebuild Zion? I mean, wouldn't it be in his best interests to just completely wipe out all Zion after Neo resets the code so that there is no human insurrection? How do the machines think? All as one, controlled by the Machine God or whatever, or individually? It seems like they were all controlled as one, but who knows. Furthermore, let me get this straight: The Machines created the Matrix, the Architect and apparently the Oracle. The Architect then created every other program. At the end of the last movie, Neo tells the Machine King that they've lost control of Agent Smith and can't stop him. Well, if the Machines created the Matrix, why can't they, you know, pull the plug and create another Matrix? If the Oracle is a program that either the Machines or the Architect created, keyword being that she is a program, then why does she help Neo and crew? From what I understand, she's not an exiled program or a rogue program like the other ones (Keymaker, Frenchman, etc), so why doesn't she obey the rules of the Matrix and help the Machines? It seems like the movie is trying to say that we do things because we must, because it is our purpose, but at the same time, we have a choice. An example of this is in Revolutions when Neo and Trinity are flying to the Machine City and Trinity tells Neo that if he says they can make it then she'll believe him, and Neo says "we'll make it, because we must." How exactly does this work out? You can't exactly have a choice in doing something that you are purposed for. At the end of the third movie, Agent Smith is staring down at Neo and for the first time ever, he calls him Neo instead of Mr. Anderson. Then Neo gets up and Agent Smith starts freaking the gently caress out. Is he freaking the gently caress out because Neo is standing up again, or is he freaking the gently caress out because he didn't say what he said (as in the Oracle said it through him)? Finally, why does Neo let Agent Smith assimilate him at the end? I mean, he can't know that the machines are going to jolt his body with 1.2 GIGAWATTS of power when he dies to destroy Agent Smith. Thanks in advance! Ziir fucked around with this message at Nov 07, 2009 around 17:49 |
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 17:45 |
|
|
|
| # ? Nov 20, 2009 22:19 |
|
|
The Matrix saga is one of the greatest stories ever told and Matrix: Reloaded is the greatest film created in cinematic history. For far too long I've had to endure barbs, jokes, and ignorance flung around at and around these excellent films. No longer. I am standing up to defend these films against all criticism (except two, see below), complaints, and misunderstands. I shall defend casting choices, plot devices, the inherent complicated philosophies inside the film, the pacing, the ending of Reloaded, and anything else your mind has to say. I'm drawing a line with my samauri sword in the metal surface of 01 City. The attacks will be ignored no longer. The protection and validation will include The Matrix, Matrix: Reloaded, Matrix: Revolutions, The Animatrix, the cutscenes of Enter the Matrix, and the beta of Matrix Online. I would defend the comics but I've (somehow) been unable to read them yet. The actual games Enter the Matrix and Path of Neo will not be defended as they are shoddily made and is not up to the standard of the rest of the Wachowski's vision. Matrix Online post-beta? You're loving on your own, dicks. The two issues I will not defend: 1. The use of humans as batteries. For this discussion we will assume that this information from Morpheus was incorrect and the Machines were actually using the human's brains for processing power and that the Matrix was actually stored partially in the brains of the enslaved humans. This is how it was allegedly explained in the original script (Warner Brothers thought it was too cerebral), and given how much poo poo Morpheus has wrong, it's no surprise he was wrong about this also. 2. The special effects in the Zion battle scene in Revolutions are unforgivable for a a movie trillogy such as the Matrix. But that's it. The rest is flawless. To start us off, here is an essay I wrote awhile ago about how the Matrix saga is actually an atheist manifesto. So ask away. I'm off till the weekend at which time I will go visit my family and will need a nice escape now and then to get me through the week. So ask away. Let the war begin... The Matrix and Religion I've been constantly amazed over the years at the amount of people who continue to believe that the Matrix Saga is pro-religious or, more specifically, a parallel to Christianity myths. As an atheist who has religion pushed down my throat daily in this country it was personally vastly annoying to me that people took such an anti-religious, anti-dogma film and tried to turn it into a generic retelling of Jesus’ resurrection and sacrifice. Especially since it was based mostly on surface elements such as “a friend betrayed him”, “the second coming of the One was foretold”, and “a resurrection” Also it was frustrating because the films were clearly much more anti-authoritarian, and anti-dogma than anyone gave it credit. One would be hard pressed to be anti-authoritarian and overtly religious. In fact, it’s virtually impossible since refusing to have faith just for faith’s sake is a tenant of religion. Since the atheist point of view is virtually unheard in America, these thoughts haven’t really been published anywhere. This is broken into two portions. The first portion follows the journey of Neo and his rejection, possible failure, and the complete impossibility of him being a messiah in any religious or spiritual sense of the word. The second portion details my personal interpretation of the films in their relation to religion. As a rabid fan of the mythology of the Matrix this is not in the least my only interpretation of the Matrix and in no way am claiming that this is anything near what the Wachowskis actually intended. Two of the great things about the Wachowskis are that they’ve created such a fantastic work of art that can be interpreted in so many different ways and that they’ve allowed us their silence to create those interpretations. Since I so thoroughly hate dogma, I’m not saying this is set in stone in any way. I’d love feedback from anyone and everyone who reads this. I’ve only written this because I feel so passionate about this mythology, thus any dialogue on the subject is welcome. My opinions can be changed. Right now, what follows, are those opinions. All feedback is welcome. 1. Neo’s Journey A common misconception is that Neo is an analogy for Jesus, or in some way a messiah and saviour for mankind. It is true, the first film portrayed him as a messianic figure, at least in theme if not word. Was that messianic figure Jesus? Sure, that interpretation is valid. As much is Neo = Allah, or Neo = [Whatever Uber-Hero You Want]. In the 1st installment, Neo is our saviour. He could be any religious or mythological figure of hope and sacrifice. The most common reason I’ve heard for the belief that Neo = Jesus is the resurrection at the conclusion of the 1st installment. But if one looks deeper into the actual resurrections in both the Christianity myth and the Matrix myth, they are vastly different. Jesus is brought back to life because he’s the Son of God. He is Holy. God resurrected him. That makes sense since he’s the messiah. In the Matrix myth, Neo is not brought back by God or even by a proxy for God (i.e., Dues Ex Machina). He is brought back by another human. Not only that, but he’s not resurrected by that human for any grand purpose. The dogmatic figure, Morpheus, didn’t bring him back. Trinity did. Trinity didn’t want Neo to live so he could end the war or destroy the Machines or be the Saviour of Humanity. She wanted him back because she loved him. Not a love one has for a Saviour but a love a woman has for a man. A kiss by a romantic loved one is much more akin to a fairytale like Sleeping Beauty than to any religious fable. For Neo’s part, we must assume that in some part of his mind he chose to be resurrected. Choice is a major theme running through the saga. Since he allowed himself to die in the first place, it must be within his choice to stay dead. The question is “Why” did he choose to be resurrected? It surely wasn’t to be a Messiah for humanity. Whether or not one believes Neo was a Jesus-figure, it’d be hard to argue that it was a role that Neo at all embraced. Again, it’s Morpheus’ role to embrace him as the Saviour. As Neo put it, “I’m sorry, I’m just another guy.” Neo allowed himself to be resurrected because he loved Trinity. It’s a story of love, impassioned love between a man and a woman, not of a Holy intervention. So already, even within the very 1st installment something isn’t adding up. Neo is wildly unholy. At the start of the first installment it’s revealed that he’s broken many, many laws. Sure, only white collar crime, but he more than makes up for it as he and his girlfriend go on an impressive killing spree an hour later. Remember, Neo and Trinity don’t only murder “Machines”, they murder the Blue Pills that become Agents; they kill Blue Pill security guards. They kill generally anyone who gets in their way. Neo has killed human beings. And that doesn’t even bring up the issue of whether or not ending Machines is equally reprehensible. As we learn in the 2nd and 3rd films, the Machines feel love, feel compassion, believe in karma, and want to protect their offspring. Yet Neo ends as many as he can. I don’t remember Jesus storming the Roman Palace and taking out everything that moved to rescue John the Baptist. Most of the nuance of the story were lost on the American psyche which only saw Cypher’s betrayal and a resurrection and instantly read it as shorthand for a Jesus analogy. A betrayal and a resurrection does not necessarily equal messiah. Although to be fair, given the morals of most American movies and the black and white nature of the conflict in the 1st film, it’s easy to see why many people believed Neo was a stand-in for Jesus. In 1999 I believed it myself. Then the Wachowskis pulled off one of the biggest story twists in cinema history (and IMO, do not get nearly enough credit for it) by obliterating the messianic status of Thomas Anderson in Matrix: Reloaded. The twist was so incomprehensible to the majority of the audience that they didn’t only not “get” it, they didn’t even notice it. Instead the mainstream audience—including most critics—were left in a confused haze where they felt the second film didn’t make sense or just wasn’t good. To be fair to these people, the twist is a big one. In cinema history it would be the equivalent of if Empire Strikes Back painted the Empire as a perfectly good solution to a crumbling Republican and the Rebellion as possible terrorists. As the film begins we see Neo’s exhaustion. As he says, “I just wish I knew what I was supposed to do.” This is a man who has been pushed into a messianic role by Morpheus and the civilians of Zion (and the American movie-going public) but without a God talking into his ear. No wonder he doesn’t know what to do. The man who freed him believes he’s the second coming, the civilians of Zion worship him like a living God, and all Neo wants is to have sex with his beloved girlfriend and to be left alone. Over and over he denies what people want to push on him. He tells The Kid, “I didn’t find you… You save yourself.” Instead of promising to protect Zionist’s children in the Matrix, all he can muster is a feeble, “I’ll try.” One of the scenes that seemed to annoy the mainstream filmgoer the most was the “rave scene”. Many people argued that it was so bad that is shouldn’t have even been in the film at all. Others simply didn’t like it and found it boring. What they fail to realize is that the scene is integral to the entire Matrix story. Here we have a scene of dirty, wet, multi-cultural naked humanity in hedonistic pleasure. It’s a filthy scene brimming with human sexuality. Filthy isn’t to imply “wrong” in the religiously moral way, but filthy as a counterpoint to the sterile environment of the Matrix. Those dirty feet in the mud, the thin clothing that stuck to the bodies from sweat and water, body parts of all kinds, fondling, grasping, holding in one giant mass of semi-naked humanity. You can nearly smell the aroma of sex off the celluloid. This is not a scene that implies “safe sex” or condom use or wedlock. It implies orgy. This is humanity, people, horny, wet, passionate, loving, intense, incredibly raw people. If that wasn’t enough to drive the point home, we have Neo making love to his girlfriend (no wedlock here either) on what looks to be an altar. This is a scene that puts humanity’s true nature diametrically opposed to everything the Matrix represents. Humanity is reckless, dirty, and out of control. The Matrix is: order, sterility, and control. Lets face it, the rave scene is out of a fundamentalist Christian’s worst nightmare. Sex and intimacy with Trinity is all Neo wanted for the first thirty minutes of the film. The offerings from his followers were left where they were placed, getting only a haunted look from Neo. After the sex, Neo returns to the Matrix to meet the Oracle and walks through an alley filled with every religious idol and icon under the sun being sold on the cheap in a flea market setting. The speech with the Oracle continues the change of Neo from Messiah to man. Neo lacks divine wisdom, hence his confusion of what to do, but he is a very smart man. He figures out the Oracle is a program and comes to a startling conclusion—both for him and for the audience. She might not be there to help him. In fact she might be BS’ing him at that very moment. But he still does what she tells him—to go see the Merovingian-- because, basically, he doesn’t have any better ideas. Neo then encounters Smith again. Here we get a very interesting speech about purpose. Without purpose, what do we have left? This question isn’t answered, perhaps because the answer is too bleak even for a film as subversive as Matrix: Reloaded. Or perhaps it’s implied that once one accepts there is no inherent purpose in life they are free to choose whatever purpose they desire. There are many implications from that which I won’t go into here. What it boils down to in this scene is that no one knows what to do. Smith is no longer an Agent, has no purpose but doesn’t want to be deleted. Neo doesn’t know why he has God-like powers in the Matrix. We have these two entities staring at each other and neither has a true goal in mind. So they fight. This is a human response. In religion there is a right and wrong, a path. There is no path here. Smith has nothing left, he decides to try and take Neo’s free will, his perceived purpose, by turning him into a Smith copy/slave. So he attacks him. So Neo fights back. But neither is really fighting for anything, at least nothing they understand. The deconstruction of Neo’s “path” as well as the meta-destruction of a major film convention continues with the meeting with the Merovingian. Here the Merovingian gives it to Neo straight. Neo, Trinity, and Morpheus have no idea what the Hell they’re doing. The One’s “path” along with the film’s plot is being dictated to the three, but without them having any idea why they’re doing what they’re doing. All they’re doing is following directions. They haven’t made any true choice yet, in fact they haven’t even expressed free will in the Matrix. This is brilliant on two levels. On the first, meta-level, it’s brilliant because generally that’s how movies work—usually the plot advances by advancing the plot. Hero goes from Point A to Point B so he can get to Point C. But here the Merovingian does the impossible. He tells them to get a clue and refuses to allow the plot to go forward—refuses to let them continue to wander aimlessly from Point A to Point B. This is resolved in one of the most wonderfully strange scenes in a mainstream movie: the Hero has to cheat on his beloved girlfriend with a beautiful woman for the common good. If this happened in a generic Lynch movie it would be hailed as brilliant. Here it’s mostly overlooked. It shouldn’t be. It shows they’re still just following directions. They’re still obeying and obeying blindly at that. It boils down to “Do what I say and you may continue.” Neo doesn’t cleverly trick Persephone somehow to get out of the kiss, Trinity doesn’t beat it out of her, and Morpheus doesn’t break out the Keymaker with guns blazing. Instead Neo says, “… Alright.” And after an awkward first attempt gives it his all. Sure, it’s only a kiss, but what’s profoundly important is that the kiss is there. This is not the way one builds a messiah. Not that Neo kissing Persephone makes him incapable of being a saviour, but as a scene in a film—and such a deliberate scene-- it’s just not a logical step to building a messianic figure. Yet paradoxically it shows Neo making a choice of sorts, and that choice is choosing his “obligation”, his “path”, over Trinity. Of course it’s “only a kiss” as Persephone purred. But as many “only” things, it’s the first compromise Neo has to make to his love for Trinity. Potentially it could lead to a slippery slope where the messianic role thrust upon him destroys his love with Trinity. In one of the greatest ironic meta-moments in film, the reward for doing what one’s told to do to continue the “path”-- and the plot-- is the most elaborate, over-the-top car chase ever put on film. It’s unclear until the finale how much stock to put in the words of the Merovingian. Neo, led by Morpheus’ prophecy, continues down the “path of the One”. He is on the messiah fast-track so to speak. The prophecy’s working are vague. A key is needed. A door needs to be unlocked. Only “The One” can do it. “The One” must return to “The Source”. Like most religious texts it doesn’t go much into specifics on the “how” and “why”, but—again like most religious texts—the ending, the reward, could not be clearer. Do what you’re supposed to and the war will be over; Heaven, so to speak. How does “The One” returning to “The Source” free billions of humans, destroy the Matrix, and defeat the Machines? If you asked Morpheus I’m sure he would say, “Have faith.” Sound familiar? Neo does what he’s told, follows the ancient prophecy and that brings him to the Architect. Here two major things occur that destroys the notion that Neo is a Jesus-figure, a messiah, or any sort of religious or spiritual savior. The entirety of the Architect’s speech is to reduce Neo back to what he really is: just another guy. The fascinating aspect is how well it demolishes the concept of religion without most people catching on. The first major revelation: the Prophecy is a hoax, another system of control, a way to authoritate over human beings. This is astounding and subversive. All of the quasi-religious imagery, the mixed and vaguely defined “path of the One”, the reverence of faith; it is all disassembled. None of it is true. If Neo IS a proxy for Jesus Christ, and faith in the prophecy CAN be considered faith in religion then Architect disassembles the concept of faith. The Architect is saying, “Religion was never meant to get you to Heaven. It was meant as a form of control to keep you in line.” After that implication it’s tough to see the Matrix saga being viewed in any way advocating or promoting Christianity or any other religion. That is an atheist point of view. God doesn’t exist, you will not be saved, religion is the opiate for the masses. Every success was allowed, every decision guided by the system. No one is tending the light at the end of the tunnel. The Architect virtually admits to using most human’s need to have faith in something the exact same way that people in power all throughout history have used it: to get what they want, whether that thing is blowing yourself up as a suicide bomber or putting money in the collection plate or returning to the Source. Neo cannot be a spiritual or religious savior in the Matrix mythology because the entire concept was orchestrated as another system of control. Yet as Neo so “adequately puts it” “the problem is choice”. He still has to make a choice. He cannot be a messiah in the true sense of the world. The best he can do is allow Zion to be destroyed then rebuild it so it can be destroyed in the future. That is the true path of the One. Not Heaven, not peace, only submission to the system. At this point Neo can still choose to resemble a messiah, even if it’s a failed one. All he has to do is finish the path put in front of him. The choice could not be more clear: save every single person on the planet or let the entire species of humanity die and try to save his girlfriend. What an easy choice for a messiah. Neo doesn’t even have to get up on the cross for this one. All he has to do is let Trinity and Zion die, then “break out” 23 fresh Red Pills from the Matrix who know nothing about this reality, take them to a newly cleaned up Zion, be their defacto leader, and tell them that one day someone in the future will be born who will free everyone. Talk about a false prophet. But Neo isn’t the messiah. He’s not “The One” in any profound, spiritual sense. He is not a Saviour. He’s just a man. And that’s why, without a second thought, he walks out on all of humanity—the thousands in Zion, the billions in pods, and even the Machine civilization that will face a catastrophic system crash if he doesn’t return to the Source. He walks out on all of them for a single woman that he happens to love deeply. At that point anyone who tries to hold onto a Neo is Jesus or any sort of messiah ideal is just deluding themselves. The film could not make it more clear. When Jesus Christ was told to sacrifice himself for the sins of all mankind, I don’t remember him saying, “Let ‘em die” and then taking off with Mary Magdalene. In retrospect of course the prophecy wasn’t true. That’s why it’s so vague, why it never had to make actual rational sense. The true answer isn’t “have faith”, it’s “this is clearly not true”. Another major piece of fallout from this is the total destruction of the character of Morpheus. It’s no coincidence that he’s a central character in the mythology up until the point that the prophecy turns out to be a hoax. He’s a man who’s based his faith on a religion that has demonstrably been proven not to be true. We saw it in his eyes in the first film when he believes Neo has died. We see it in his eyes in the second film when it’s proven the prophecy was a hoax. What does the religious zealot have if his faith has been proven, without a shadow of a doubt, to be false. The answer is nothing, hence Morpheus’ role in the third film, a glorified co-pilot for the majority of his time on film. He literally has nothing else to do. No wonder the response to the films was so divided. Storytellers and especially filmmaker’s just don’t do things like that. As an example, imagine Frodo throwing the ring into Mt. Doom after his exhausting journey to Mordor, only to realize that’s actually what Sauron wanted all along and now Sauron has the ring back and is going to destroy all of middle-earth. The majority of the third film deals mostly with two ideas: 1) There is no Us and Them, there is no “With us or against us.” There are good programs and bad programs, there are good people and bad people. 2) Life without the prophecy, without faith, dealing with reality, without the flight and fancies of the Matrix. There’s no kung-fu and wire-fu in the Neo/Smith fight in the real world. It’s not graceful, it’s not orchestrated with techno pop. It’s a real fight. Two men clumsily hitting, getting bloody, choking each other, desperately grabbing any weapon for an upperhand. This is a secular fight. No grace, no meaning, only desperate, dirty fighting for surivival. The Matrix is virtually unseen for the entire third film. I’ll go further into why a bit later. Right now we need to address the sacrifice Neo makes at the end of the third film. Again the religious people came out seeing what they wanted to see. Neo is Jesus, Neo sacrificed himself for all of humanity, a savior, a messiah. Lets look deeper into the exact choice Neo made and, more importantly, the circumstances surrounding that choice. Remember, these films always want to expose the “Why”. Did Neo sacrifice himself to Smith as a Savior or as a man? Clearly he did it as the latter. Look what it took to make Neo decide to sacrifice himself: his adored lover is dead, he is blinded, he’s hundreds or thousands of miles away from any help, his ship is destroyed, all of his friends in Zion are either dying or about to, Smith has destroyed the Matrix and is about to kill everyone attached to it along with the machine civilization. That’s what it took for him to sacrifice his own life. It doesn’t take a Holy messiah to make that call. Any person in that position would do the exact same thing. It wouldn’t even take much bravery. It could be argued that Neo and Smith played out a double suicide more than anything else. Remember Smith’s line after he’s absorbed Neo, in a voice so vulnerable it sounds like a scared child, “Is it over?” He never knew what he was fighting for or even if he had won or lost. All he knew was that he wanted out of the Matrix. Yet inhabiting a human’s body in the real world wasn’t his cup of tea either. So then what? Fight until you’ve destroyed everything or until everything destroys you. Perhaps the Merovingian was right all along and there was no choice, only cause and effect. Not a single time in any of the three films, the 9 animated shorts, the Matrix Online or in any official Matrix canon does Neo say, “Yes, I’m the one. I will save you.” In fact he spent three films saying exactly the opposite. Zion, the people who need to believe in something, and the movie-going public are the ones who thrust that upon him. He died—perhaps committed suicide (what a fine line between martyrdom and suicide)—for reasons that are truly human. He had lost everything, felt he had no choice, and was tired. As he said so firmly to Smith before their final battle, “It ends tonight.” (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 17:55 |
|
|
 whoa magicfrog fucked around with this message at Nov 07, 2009 around 18:08 |
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 18:05 |
|
|
Ziir posted:
As I remember it, if this wasn't the case the enslaved human crops will start failing. Humans need hope to continue being useful to them. Ziir posted:Machine king I always thought the machine king was just the physical embodiment of the architect. 
|
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 18:24 |
|
|
moana posted:Too many loving words How about putting some effort into that post and writing up a summary? Edit: Okay I read the essay and found it to be better written and more insightful that I had assumed it would be. Though the introduction could have benefited from an actual thesis statement because you do actually end up making the argument that while Neo appears to fulfill his messianic role in the 3rd film, he is in fact no real savior because he was exhausted, blinded and lost Trinity, turning his "sacrifice" into more of a suicide. 3 Tablets Daily fucked around with this message at Nov 07, 2009 around 19:31 |
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 18:42 |
|
|
3 Tablets Daily posted:How about putting some effort into that post and writing up a summary? Summary: The Matrix trilogy is pretty much the best thing ever because Neo is Jesus and Jesus is awesome.
|
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 18:46 |
|
|
Wasn't that shitstorm of a response a re-post?
|
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 18:52 |
|
|
moana posted:What the hell? I can't tell if this is some kind of troll or whatever but this has absolutely nothing to do with what I asked.
|
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 18:53 |
|
|
DefenseSupportParty posted:Summary: The Matrix trilogy is pretty much the best thing ever because Neo is Jesus and Jesus is awesome. That's what I took from it. Personally I didn't mind the second two movies, and I thought the graphics in the Zion scene were pretty awesome. For the OP's questions: What were the purpose of the ships: They were used to hack into the Matrix and free minds etc etc. People probably didn't want to join up with Morpheus because they thought he was nuts. Why can't the people enter the Matrix from Zion again: In the first movie they said that they had to approach the surface so that they could broadcast their signal. Why do the machines have to drill through the entire Earth to get to Zion? Why not just barge in through the front door: The front door had pretty serious defenses from my understanding. But they did eventually come in through there. Why exactly does the Architect give Neo the option to save 23 people to rebuild Zion: That was the point of the entire scene. You can't have a Matrix that works without rebellion, it just doesnt work. So they allow Zion and the One to exist to balance out the system. How do the machines think: They didn't really get into this. If the Machines created the Matrix, why can't they, you know, pull the plug and create another Matrix: They would lose all of their currently plugged in human crops. If the Oracle is a program that either the Machines or the Architect created, keyword being that she is a program, then why does she help Neo and crew: See above, the Oracle exists so that the rebellion can exist so that the Matrix can exist. How exactly does this work out? You can't exactly have a choice in doing something that you are purposed for: "What will really get your noodle later is, would you have knocked over the lamp if I hadn't said anything"  Is he freaking the gently caress out because he didn't say what he said (as in the Oracle said it through him): That is what I assume. Finally, why does Neo let Agent Smith assimilate him at the end: Movie Magic.
|
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 19:06 |
|
|
When I have kids I'm not going to tell them there were sequels to The Matrix
|
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 19:09 |
|
|
I knew that by the time I was finished answering these, some goon would come along and beat me before I hit submit, but i'll go ahead and post this anyway. I'll give answering these a shot. I know I can answer a few of them at least, though I haven't seen the movies in years. Look for my answers in bold. What were the purpose of the ships, such as the ones Morpheus had? I think their purpose was to roam around and to free people from the Matrix, right? Why was Morpheus' ship seemingly understaffed (no gunmen), whereas in Revolutions, we see that the other captain (not Niobe, not Morpheus) had a medical staff, gunmen, weapons, etc? The purpose of the ships was to free people from the matrix and also patrol around Zion as a defense. If you remember, when they free Neo from the Matrix, he pops out in chamber underneath the location of his, I dunno, farm tube? I'm not sure why Morpheus seemed to have an undermanned ship. There may have been different ships with different capabilities, or it could have been that Morpheus was out of favor with the general, who probably assigned crews. Why can't the people enter the Matrix from Zion again? If they entered the Matrix from Zion, the machines would have been able to trace them and find the location of Zion. Why do the machines have to drill through the entire Earth to get to Zion? Why not just barge in through the front door? Surely the machines must know how to get there if they've destroyed Zion five or six previous times already. The main commander in charge mentioned something about a defense system, but why does this matter to the machines when they can just make more bodies to throw against it? Eventually the humans would be overwhelmed from the sheer amount of machines throwing themselves against the gates, ammo would run out, or something. The machines drill through the earth as a means of avoiding the main door, as it's very heavily defended. The machines are vulnerable to EMT's, and I imagine the area around their entrances were heavily fortified with multiple EMT's, which would just decimate the machine army. So they drill through to surprise Zion. They don't exactly know where Zion is, iirc, as there is still a lot of ground to cover around the center of the earth. Why exactly does the Architect give Neo the option to save 23 people to rebuild Zion? I mean, wouldn't it be in his best interests to just completely wipe out all Zion after Neo resets the code so that there is no human insurrection? I'm not sure exactly, but I think it had something to do with either A: the Architect knew that Neo would eventually win and tried to fool Neo into giving up rather then continuing the fight and winning, or B: this has all happened before and the Architect was just going by his programming. How do the machines think? All as one, controlled by the Machine God or whatever, or individually? It seems like they were all controlled as one, but who knows. Hive mind Furthermore, let me get this straight: The Machines created the Matrix, the Architect and apparently the Oracle. The Architect then created every other program. At the end of the last movie, Neo tells the Machine King that they've lost control of Agent Smith and can't stop him. Well, if the Machines created the Matrix, why can't they, you know, pull the plug and create another Matrix? Agent Smith was beginning to manifest beyond the Matrix iirc, and if he was successful he would have completely destroyed the machines. It's either this or the fact that the Matrix is everything for the machines. It's not only the program the machines use to keep the humans alive, it's all the humans they are farming and all their programs too. So they can't exactly pull the plug, as that would kill all the humans and leave the machines with no power. If the Oracle is a program that either the Machines or the Architect created, keyword being that she is a program, then why does she help Neo and crew? From what I understand, she's not an exiled program or a rogue program like the other ones (Keymaker, Frenchman, etc), so why doesn't she obey the rules of the Matrix and help the Machines? It was her programming to help. There are allusions to what happens in the movie as just continuing on and repeating ad nauseum. I think it was her purpose to help as much as she did and then do no more, which she did. But then Neo become more then what had happened in the past. It seems like the movie is trying to say that we do things because we must, because it is our purpose, but at the same time, we have a choice. An example of this is in Revolutions when Neo and Trinity are flying to the Machine City and Trinity tells Neo that if he says they can make it then she'll believe him, and Neo says "we'll make it, because we must." How exactly does this work out? You can't exactly have a choice in doing something that you are purposed for. I think you pretty much have the message the Wachowski brothers (or is it the Wachowski siblings now? I can't remember if one of them went ahead with the sex change) wanted to give. Everyone has a destiny, or a fate, and you can choose to except your fate or you can choose to change your fate, but everyone has a destiny. At the end of the third movie, Agent Smith is staring down at Neo and for the first time ever, he calls him Neo instead of Mr. Anderson. Then Neo gets up and Agent Smith starts freaking the gently caress out. Is he freaking the gently caress out because Neo is standing up again, or is he freaking the gently caress out because he didn't say what he said (as in the Oracle said it through him)? Both I imagine. Just the fact that everything didn't pan out as he believed it would was enough to make him freak out. Finally, why does Neo let Agent Smith assimilate him at the end? I mean, he can't know that the machines are going to jolt his body with 1.2 GIGAWATTS of power when he dies to destroy Agent Smith. Because he sacrificed himself to save his people. He accepted his death knowing that he would save his people in death. He didn't know the machines were going to revive him, but he was cool with dying. The machines just revived him because he also saved the machines. The movie has a lot of parallels to Christianity. Edit: BobX had some good answers too. In particular, I forgot about needing to approach the surface to broadcast, but they can also get tracked through the signal. So there are actually a few reasons they don't just broadcast from Zion. Also, I kind of alluded to it, but he said it better. The matrix wouldn't exist with out rebellion, so the rebellion is allowed to exist. Before it gets to powerful they shut the rebellion down, offer the current "the one" the option to save 23 and start again. Every time until Neo the one has agreed with it, doubting himself and believing acceptance is the only way to save his people. Edit2: also what he said about Morpheus was half true. His views were out of favor with the mainstream, which affected how many crew members volunteered. But Morpheus was also incredibly respected and was probably the most popular guy in Zion. Doesn't he give the speech during the big underground sweat party? Also, I think he convinces some of the counsel to let him do some stuff because they respect him so much, and partly believe/hope that he is correct. ShowTime fucked around with this message at Nov 07, 2009 around 19:21 |
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 19:13 |
|
|
Ziir posted:What the hell? I can't tell if this is some kind of troll or whatever but this has absolutely nothing to do with what I asked. I think it's actually going to be the closest thing you can get to a coherent explanation of the later two matrix films. I made a similar thread to yours a few years ago. I concluded it just doesn't make any real sense at all. So don't waste your time trying. Just try and forget anything after the first film.
|
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 19:15 |
|
|
3 Tablets Daily posted:How about putting some effort into that post and writing up a summary?
|
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 19:23 |
|
|
Yes we wouldn't want to critically analyze works of fiction, that would be insane. 
|
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 19:37 |
|
|
Bobx66 posted:Why do the machines have to drill through the entire Earth to get to Zion? Why not just barge in through the front door: The front door had pretty serious defenses from my understanding. But they did eventually come in through there. I'm not sure exactly how Zion was laid out but I think what the machines did was drill through the Earth into the "gate" of Zion which is like a separate area with their shipdocks or something. Meaning, they skipped the front door. Just a minor correction. ShowTime posted:The purpose of the ships was to free people from the matrix and also patrol around Zion as a defense. If you remember, when they free Neo from the Matrix, he pops out in chamber underneath the location of his, I dunno, farm tube? I'm not sure why Morpheus seemed to have an undermanned ship. There may have been different ships with different capabilities, or it could have been that Morpheus was out of favor with the general, who probably assigned crews. Again, another minor correction- I think the crews were on a volunteer basis. When they first show Neo in Zion in Reloaded, the kid he saved runs up to him and tells him that he's thought it over and he wants to join Morpheus' crew. ShowTime posted:Why can't the people enter the Matrix from Zion again? But they have destroyed Zion multiple times in the past. Why wouldn't they know where Zion is? Did they randomly forget or something? Keep in mind that the Architect tells Neo that they've "become increasingly efficient" in killing humans, so this must mean that they have physically been in Zion to kill these humans before. Plus, on the barging through the front door thing, so what if Zion is heavily fortified? This means nothing to the machines who can produce ten more machines for every one that falls. So they send the first wave at the door and boom, the guns kill them all. Then send the second wave, and make progress before dying. Third wave, fifth wave, etc. Then the humans get desperate and trigger an EMP. Great, now the entire defense is down because the defense system is affected by the EMP as well. Now the machines can waltz right into Zion. The humans didn't seem to want to use EMPs unless as a last minute thing. When Morpheus/Trinity and crew flew into Zion and used their EMP, the general was furious and then another swarm of machines just came anyway. ShowTime posted:It seems like the movie is trying to say that we do things because we must, because it is our purpose, but at the same time, we have a choice. An example of this is in Revolutions when Neo and Trinity are flying to the Machine City and Trinity tells Neo that if he says they can make it then she'll believe him, and Neo says "we'll make it, because we must." How exactly does this work out? You can't exactly have a choice in doing something that you are purposed for. That doesn't make sense though. Everybody has a purpose, therefore everybody must do what they do because they must. How can not not accept that the sole reason you are alive is to serve your purpose that you "must" do? But at the same time, Neo and Agent Smith are only what they are because they've accepted that the rules don't apply to them, correct? So this goes against the whole "purpose" thing too. Besides, I think the Architect explains that he didn't specifically write Neo's program, but that Neo is just some kind of truncation error that arose out of his inperfect code. ShowTime posted:Finally, why does Neo let Agent Smith assimilate him at the end? I mean, he can't know that the machines are going to jolt his body with 1.2 GIGAWATTS of power when he dies to destroy Agent Smith. Here's the thing I don't understand: Neo didn't save anybody. The machines saved everybody. Neo went in and fought Agent Smith and got his rear end handed to him. Then he let Agent Smith absorb him. Neo dies in the Matrix, Neo dies in real life. End of story. The only reason why Agent Smith was destroyed was because the machines decided to jolt Neo with 1.21 GIGAWATTS of power. How would this have been any different than if the machines had decided to jolt Random Joe turned into Agent Smith with power and rip him apart? Neo did not destroy Smith, he did not save his people. He fought a battle and lost. ShowTime posted:Edit2: also what he said about Morpheus was half true. His views were out of favor with the mainstream, which affected how many crew members volunteered. But Morpheus was also incredibly respected and was probably the most popular guy in Zion. Doesn't he give the speech during the big underground sweat party? Also, I think he convinces some of the counsel to let him do some stuff because they respect him so much, and partly believe/hope that he is correct. Yes, he gave a motivational speed to everybody in Zion, and throughout the movies it seemed like everybody did think he was a nutjob. Everybody except for the Council I guess, cause he did convince them to let him do his thing. Ziir fucked around with this message at Nov 07, 2009 around 19:43 |
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 19:38 |
|
|
Piearesquared posted:Wasn't that shitstorm of a response a re-post? edit: 7.2 words a second. Neat! Hazzardus fucked around with this message at Nov 07, 2009 around 19:55 |
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 19:53 |
|
|
Here are a couple thoughtful essays on the two sequels written from a modern myth perspective. There's no fake-posting here. http://www.wylfing.net/essays/
|
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 21:02 |
|
|
Ziir posted:Finally, why does Neo let Agent Smith assimilate him at the end? I mean, he can't know that the machines are going to jolt his body with 1.2 GIGAWATTS of power when he dies to destroy Agent Smith. The best explanation I read (on SA somewhere) on this is that Smith, after his semi-independence of the Matrix is really freaking the Machines out, who don't know how to deal with him. Neo is jacked in the Matrix and the machine king at the same time, imagine that the machines are hoping for him to win obviously. Neo realizes that he can't defeat Smith so he is going with the second best option; mutually assured destruction. Neo lets Smith try to absorb him, the Machines see exactly what happens and develop a way to get rid of Smith. As a special thank you, rino86 posted:I thought that, because neo was in at the source, the machines could access agent smith directly, and delete him, like a Trojan horse. I figured the whole process probably fried Neo's brain and killed him. This is exactly what I was trying to say. Namarrgon fucked around with this message at Nov 08, 2009 around 00:26 |
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 21:16 |
|
|
When does Neo get revived? How did I miss this? Also, what's this about electrocuting Neo's body? I thought Smith died because he absorbed Neo who was the exact opposite of him and it cancelled each other out.
|
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 21:29 |
|
|
Krenzo posted:When does Neo get revived? How did I miss this? They don't shoe that Neo is alive, but the Indian girl asks the Oracle if they'll ever see Neo again and she smiled and says she thinks she will which means yes in Oracle speak. Smith stuck his hand in Neo and turned him into Smith 2. Smith 1 then asks Smith 2 if it's over, and he nods. The scene then cut to real life Neo and it shows the machines shocking him, which causes all of the Smiths to blow up. Ergo, why didn't the machines just shock Random Joe that was still connected to the system? Furthermore, Neo died in real life when he was absorbed. Doesn't this mean every other human that was absorbed is dead? Ziir fucked around with this message at Nov 07, 2009 around 21:42 |
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 21:40 |
|
|
I thought that, because neo was in at the source, the machines could access agent smith directly, and delete him, like a Trojan horse. I figured the whole process probably fried Neo's brain and killed him.
|
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 22:11 |
|
|
magicfrog posted:
At least it makes loving sense now though.
|
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 23:00 |
|
|
Ziir posted:Ergo, why didn't the machines just shock Random Joe that was still connected to the system? Random Joe isn't directly linked up to the Machine King. So why didn't the MK link up with a random Joe? gently caress if I know, maybe they were simply too late. It does seem like Neo is the only non-Smith left at the end.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 00:27 |
|
|
ShowTime posted:
Hate to be nit picky because of some offhand comment that wasnt even the op but so you know this was just internet rumor. Larry is rumored to crossdress but isn't transgendered or anything. He just looks kinda girly.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 00:49 |
|
|
I liken Something Awful to be a little like the Wachowski Brothers' Matrix universe. First, you have Lowtax, who is like the architect or whatever his name his. Like Gabe Newell, Lowtax types and weaves the matrix with his skilled programming. Now, the Admins are kinda like the Agents. They are very powerful and influential, and they aid Lowtax in the running of SA. By contrast, the Mods are the sentinels. They're a little further down the heirarchy but they have their own power and are formidable beings. The rest of SA are the robots. They are cold, calculating, and generally ascended beings. We've surpassed most normals by choosing logic and turning to an elevated worldview. FYAD on the other hand is Zion. The Forums creators (Lowtax) knew that the forums could not survive if not for a depository of poo poo, filth, human disease spreading and disgusting ideas about the relevance of a man's anus. So the architect created FYAD and lets his agents do the bannings. New posters don't come its simply the same posters who rereg year after year after being banned (like the architect explained to Neo in the 2nd matrix). FYAD will be 'deleted' again on December 31, 2009, but of course will be back and with the same reregged posters as before. The cycle continues, as we of higher understanding can be rid of their filth and enjoy the logical humor values inherent to typos in thread headings and poorly rated "newbie" threads.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 01:15 |
|
|
My favorite thing about that matrix was the mech battle. Let's make these Aliens style suits that carry machine guns. Let's not give them any armor, though. In fact, let's make the entire front open so a kid with a bb gun can take one down. And the squiddies? Yeah, let's float around in a circle rather then just descend and blow poo poo to hell with our lasers in a mater of seconds.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 01:19 |
|
|
ChuckMaster posted:And the squiddies? Yeah, let's float around in a circle rather then just descend and blow poo poo to hell with our lasers in a mater of seconds. Remember, the machines probably care as little for their squids as we care for our bullets.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 01:22 |
|
|
anne frank fanfic posted:SA is The Matrix If you read this in your mind with the Architect's voice it sounds really cool. And yeah there are probably a million different ways the machines "could" have gotten rid of Smith and kept their matrix scheme going, but I like the sequels because they are fun to watch (2 more than 3, however), if you don't try to analyze them.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 02:51 |
|
|
I always have had trouble with the notion of the machines using humans as batteries since this was so difficult to do via the matrix (I seem to remember that several matrixes had failed before). So if they want the bio energy to sustain their civilization why not just harvest huge quantities of cows or other large mamals instead and use their bio energy?
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 02:54 |
|
|
RagnarokAngel posted:Hate to be nit picky because of some offhand comment that wasnt even the op but so you know this was just internet rumor. Larry is rumored to crossdress but isn't transgendered or anything. He just looks kinda girly. The director's commentary for Path of Neo is a pretty strong indicator that he/she is definitely into crossing gender boundaries.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 03:01 |
|
|
anne frank fanfic posted:I liken Something Awful to be a little like the Wachowski Brothers' Matrix universe. First, you have Lowtax, who is like the architect or whatever his name his. Like Gabe Newell, Lowtax types and weaves the matrix with his skilled programming. Now, the Admins are kinda like the Agents. They are very powerful and influential, and they aid Lowtax in the running of SA. By contrast, the Mods are the sentinels. They're a little further down the heirarchy but they have their own power and are formidable beings. How do you explain BYOB?
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 03:10 |
|
|
I'm not trying to analyze poo poo, just trying to get answers to some plot holes.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 03:15 |
|
|
Namarrgon posted:Remember, the machines probably care as little for their squids as we care for our bullets. So what you're saying is that there's a serious surplus of squiddies, and the way the machines are allowed to get rid of them is to lose them in combat? So it wasn't really an attack, but more of a tax write-off operation? Ziir posted:I'm not trying to analyze poo poo, just trying to get answers to some plot holes. Easy: It wasn't written all that well. Hence entire threads and characters disappearing.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 04:12 |
|
|
ChuckMaster posted:So what you're saying is that there's a serious surplus of squiddies, and the way the machines are allowed to get rid of them is to lose them in combat? So it wasn't really an attack, but more of a tax write-off operation? He's saying the machines had no care for each individual machine. We don't care how many bullets we waste, they don't care how many machines they lose.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 05:12 |
|
|
DefenseSupportParty posted:How do you explain BYOB? They're the club of failed and exiled programs. Shivadas is The Merovingian.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 05:20 |
|
|
Oh God, I hated the sequels. I'm not going to psycho-analyze them because honestly there is nothing to analyze. I've seen a number of amusing videos on the web where they break down EXACTLY what the Architect is saying with his wordy pompous talk, and it breaks down to be nothing. There is no meaning to half of it, just wordy speeches for the sake of it; it's like Star Trek technobabble, but worse. Honestly, I think the "point of no return" for the quality of the Matrix happened the very moment he showed up; until then I was holding out hope it'd get back on the awesome train (I mean, they JUST had an awesome car chase!) but, nope. It was the beginning of the end. That said I watched the first movie again a long time later and noticed that I actually still enjoyed it, despite almost coming to hate it because of the sequels. The original had a very film noir kind of quality to it, where they really cared about each and every shot and you never knew what was around the corner in the grungy world of the Matrix; it became nothing but slick packaging afterwords. They should have stopped at the first movie. Anyway, here's my crack at a few things that Matrix nerds might try to explain away, but I feel with 100% accuracy are just bad writing or plot holes. Ziir posted:What were the purpose of the ships, such as the ones Morpheus had? I think their purpose was to roam around and to free people from the Matrix, right? Why was Morpheus' ship seemingly understaffed (no gunmen), whereas in Revolutions, we see that the other captain (not Niobe, not Morpheus) had a medical staff, gunmen, weapons, etc? Bad writing: The "brains" behind the series simply decided 'You know it'd be cool and we could cross-market this with our video game if we put all kinds of gun turrets on the ship and made it into a military vessel! Awesome!' In the original the purpose of the ship was to sneak up to broadcast range and hack into the Matrix for the purpose of freeing people or doing damage in cyberspace. As stated the ONLY weapon they had remotely worthwhile against the teeming hordes of machines was the EMP; trying to avoid detection was paramount before this. That's why there was tension when even one of the things was out there. And yes, while I might have sounded sarcastic, I honestly believe a good chunk of the reason of adding turrets was to cross-market. That's why Morpheous becomes a non-character in the entire last half of the abomination of a 3rd film, replaced by the stars of the very lackluster video game. Seriously. Ziir posted:Why can't the people enter the Matrix from Zion again? They had to get close enough to the surface to be in "broadcast range." Ziir posted:Why do the machines have to drill through the entire Earth to get to Zion? Why not just barge in through the front door? Surely the machines must know how to get there if they've destroyed Zion five or six previous times already. The main commander in charge mentioned something about a defense system, but why does this matter to the machines when they can just make more bodies to throw against it? Eventually the humans would be overwhelmed from the sheer amount of machines throwing themselves against the gates, ammo would run out, or something. Before the sequels, it was assumed that they could simply keep firing EMP after EMP down there outside the gate, which would have been an extremely good defensive tactic; thus they needed the codes to get past their defenses. In the sequels, who the hell knows. The entire last fight was a chaotic mess of machines flying in patterns for no reason and humans standing there spraying fire randomly at them in machines with no armor. There were about a hundred different ways they could have both fought a ton smarter, but the writers were apparently not good at coming up with an interesting battle strategy. Ziir posted:Why exactly does the Architect give Neo the option to save 23 people to rebuild Zion? I mean, wouldn't it be in his best interests to just completely wipe out all Zion after Neo resets the code so that there is no human insurrection? The reason he gave is that basically they needed someone to find, and let out, the "anomaly" that was Neo, which is pretty drat retarded and doesn't mesh at all with the original film. None of it does. The whole Zion being destroyed tons before doesn't mesh, the whole Neo being a repeated event doesn't mesh, etc. The agents would never had a reason to do anything they did, nor would the bullshit about Smith being the "anti-Neo" if it's happened tons of times before. If this was the outright intention of the machines to have this happen, why on Earth would they be going so far out of their way to do things like kill the Keymaker? Oh that's right, they wouldn't. Any explanation I've ever heard is so painfully illogical and doesn't mesh with anything else, that honestly the best answer I can give you is *cough* BULLSHIT *cough*. Ziir posted:How do the machines think? All as one, controlled by the Machine God or whatever, or individually? It seems like they were all controlled as one, but who knows. Despite their battle strategy, it was pretty proven even in the original that they all think individually, even the Agents had wavering personalities. Of course this slight atmosphere gave way to the incredibly, incredibly pointless "What is love" programs and their daughter that had zero point to the whole movie to take this to it's logical extreme. Especially since the parents were, apparently, effectively a sub-routine to manage waste and some kind of filing system. Yeah. Think about that for a moment. It's like if your Windows folder knocked up your trash compactor setting box and somehow had a kid that can create rainbows. Just think how painfully, terribly stupid that is. In the first movie it seemed that Smith hated being in the Matrix - loathed it in fact - and that he had a machine body outside (or at least existed in a machine-centric part of cyberspace) of it that he wanted to get back to, or that was the implication. That he was an intelligent AI with a role of Agent, jacking into it in a manner similar to the humans. That is far, far less brain damagingly stupid. Ziir posted:Furthermore, let me get this straight: The Machines created the Matrix, the Architect and apparently the Oracle. The Architect then created every other program. At the end of the last movie, Neo tells the Machine King that they've lost control of Agent Smith and can't stop him. Well, if the Machines created the Matrix, why can't they, you know, pull the plug and create another Matrix? Well from what he claims (shockingly consistent with the first movie for a change) is that they tried creating the Matrix a bunch of different times, in different versions of perfection; they weren't malicious. But everyone kept rejecting the program. So the Oracle was created for the very last version - the one in the movies - as purely a kind of "human understanding" system. Supposedly, if they pulled the plug on it, it'd killed everyone in the field, damaging their power supply. Why they couldn't just do some serious high level hacks or storm the system with every available AI to kick Smith's rear end, however, I can't tell you. Ziir posted:If the Oracle is a program that either the Machines or the Architect created, keyword being that she is a program, then why does she help Neo and crew? From what I understand, she's not an exiled program or a rogue program like the other ones (Keymaker, Frenchman, etc), so why doesn't she obey the rules of the Matrix and help the Machines? Originally it seemed that, as a human interface program, she actually started learning from and sympathizing with her subjects. However the Architect scene again shoots this in the foot by stating that it is her GOAL to guide the anomaly to the keymaker to start the whole process. Of course, she claims that THIS time she had a change of heart but really, after X # of times is that sensible? No, it's not. Basically every single thing in the movie stops making sense if you watch the architect scene. Ziir posted:It seems like the movie is trying to say that we do things because we must, because it is our purpose, but at the same time, we have a choice. An example of this is in Revolutions when Neo and Trinity are flying to the Machine City and Trinity tells Neo that if he says they can make it then she'll believe him, and Neo says "we'll make it, because we must." How exactly does this work out? You can't exactly have a choice in doing something that you are purposed for. After the first movie, which had to do with belief in a kind of pop-psych kind of way, they decided to take that element to a ludicrous extreme and try to make the whole film about "purpose vs choice." However, again, if you watch any one of a hundred dissections of those scenes by non-fan boys, they really just talk in a circle and use a ton of words that actually mean the same drat thing one after another, to try to sound fancy without saying anything at all. So really you could try to explain this in a hundred psychological ways, which is why there are die-hards out there that love these sequels because they SOUND intellectual without actually being so, and contain no real point to this paradox. I think ultimately they try to say choice/free will wins, though. Ziir posted:At the end of the third movie, Agent Smith is staring down at Neo and for the first time ever, he calls him Neo instead of Mr. Anderson. Then Neo gets up and Agent Smith starts freaking the gently caress out. Is he freaking the gently caress out because Neo is standing up again, or is he freaking the gently caress out because he didn't say what he said (as in the Oracle said it through him)? He's freaking the gently caress out because he saw the future, and knows he's about to die, but can't figure out how or why. Of course, that includes the audience, who probably couldn't figure out how or why he died even after he did so. I've heard a million different things from the master Smith merged into Neo then they killed him, to "the positive died so the negative had to die" and every one of them is muddled and unclear. Ziir posted:Finally, why does Neo let Agent Smith assimilate him at the end? I mean, he can't know that the machines are going to jolt his body with 1.2 GIGAWATTS of power when he dies to destroy Agent Smith. See above. It makes no sense, but it's about on par with Smith suddenly flying despite having not taken anyone that can fly's powers. Also about as much sense as the final showdown with thousands of Smiths basically being a couple of people flying around fighting like pissed mosquitoes. Or suddenly having Neo turn into a Jedi that can kill armies with his mind in the real world because part of his brain is copied in the mainframe.. I mean, huh? (I almost bought this if he literally had a cyber copy trying to help his real self, but of course, that's now how it worked.) Oh yeah and why can a hovercraft suddenly shoot so far up in the air that it goes ABOVE THE SKYLINE? It's a loving hovercraft. Ziir posted:Thanks in advance! Sorry if you weren't looking for a practical take on the whole thing and wanted the perspective of a major Matrix nerd. Just they are such examples of TERRIBLE sequels to an excellent movie, they are actually kind of fun to just spot flaws in them. ChuckMaster posted:My favorite thing about that matrix was the mech battle. I like the kind of hilarious point I saw in another Matrix review video of the fact that the mech ammo crews carried big rear end laser cannons for defense, to power machine guns. Seriously, what kind of screwed up logic is that? rino86 posted:I thought that, because neo was in at the source, the machines could access agent smith directly, and delete him, like a Trojan horse. I figured the whole process probably fried Neo's brain and killed him. Hilarious fate of our heroes check: Tank: Killed off screen due to disputes Trinity: Killed by a safety beam in a manner that made me crack up thinking about the bloody "kiss me" scene from National Lampoon's Loaded Weapon. Neo: Killed by who-knows-what-the-gently caress. Like I said there's like ten different theories, but really, you have to have a theory why the MAIN CHARACTER DIED? Morpheous: Reduced to the role of an extra for the last half of the film Smith: Totally dies by having a spaz attack. Niobe: "Who is this and why the hell do we care?" of course, heroically survives and flies like she's force-powered out of nowhere. Oracle: Causes Smith to have the most hilarious laugh in movie history then bows out until the stupid rainbow scene. Seraph: Pointlessly does nothing. What he's done all along. The Train Man: Who is he? What does he want? What role does he have to play? Don't know, don't care, and none. The little girl: She makes a rainbow, isn't that special? Must be her trash compactor genes. All the other Rogue programs: What's that, everyone liked the Ghosts in the first one? Or the other characters? Good because they're getting 2 seconds of cameo time. Adios. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at Nov 08, 2009 around 06:37 |
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 06:23 |
|
|
Ziir posted:Why exactly does the Architect give Neo the option to save 23 people to rebuild Zion? I mean, wouldn't it be in his best interests to just completely wipe out all Zion after Neo resets the code so that there is no human insurrection? It's been forever since I watched the movie, but I believe leaving 23 people alive allowed enough genetic diversity to prevent inbreeding. This is never stated in the film. Now, as far as the human insurrection, if you take into account the fact that the machines could take out the humans at any given time means that said insurrection is ultimately futile. Losing a few pod-humans here and there means nothing. The machines were instead guaranteeing that when the time came, and another anomaly (Neo, The One) popped up, there would be someone there to get him out and help him realize his potential so the whole process could be repeated. Ziir posted:Furthermore, let me get this straight: The Machines created the Matrix, the Architect and apparently the Oracle. The Architect then created every other program. At the end of the last movie, Neo tells the Machine King that they've lost control of Agent Smith and can't stop him. Well, if the Machines created the Matrix, why can't they, you know, pull the plug and create another Matrix? The machines created the Matrix, and then the Architect (which is supposed to represent some sort of logical arrangement to the world), and the Oracle (which instead represents the way we experience things, feelings if you would, or intuition). They designed the first Matrix to be what they thought the ideal human existence would be. Humans, however, could not accept that such a reality could exist, so that Matrix failed. The second Matrix was built on the myths of the pre-war humans, but that also failed. The Oracle then conjectured that the reason the two Matrix models had failed was because people weren't given a choice whether they wanted to accept this false reality or not. So the third Matrix model granted the humans a semblance of choice, with most accepting the false reality. The process had to be "reset" every so often in order to preserve the system, and this was accomplished by the anomaly. In essence, they use the anomaly to patch the system and retain its integrity. Edit: Oh, and they can't pull the plug on the Matrix because doing so would kill all the humans currently plugged into it, and those humans are their source of energy.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 09:52 |
|
|
Blazing Ownager posted:Anyway, here's my crack at a few things that Matrix nerds might try to explain away, but I feel with 100% accuracy are just bad writing or plot holes. It's not actually the bad writing or plot holes I mind; it's the way the sequels just pissed all over the rules and entire point of the first movie, most of which was spent creating a fictional world with consistent, beliveable behavior (except for the whole human-batteries thing, which was so dumb I just assumed it was a red herring and the real reason would be revealed later) Shorter First Matrix in a nutshell: 1. Bunch of humans live in simulated 1998 2. Real world run by robots and a few nutters who would rather live in real hell than simulated semi-paradise 3. Anyone who wants to leave can, simply by willing it. However the simulation is so good most people can't tell it's fake, unless you're a counter-culture type who doesn't truck with consensus reality. 4. Simulated world is almost perfectly materialistic, to the extent that even jacked in outside-humans and the Agents that run the place still have to follow the rules, they're just a little stronger/tougher/quicker than they should be. Nobody ever gets to violate the laws of physics, humans can even 'kill' agents if they sneak up on them. 5. It's possible for the computer powers to direcly edit the matrix, but it's not something they do lightly because it's impossible to do perfectly (you can have a 100% faithful physics simulator or have miracles, but not both at once, therefore duplicate cat) 6. Neo is "the one" because he figures out that you can go beyond just bending the rules but still playing the game to directly controlling the simulation, presuably by hand-editing the great database in the sky or whatever with his mind. He can fly, he can stop bullets, he can kill agents or at least kick them back to wherever they come from by willing it, he could presumably delete the matrix or turn everyone's hair blue or do anything he can imagine instantly. The ending of the first matrix changed everything, that was the entire point. The agents were no longer a threat, Neo wasn't just stronger than them he was infinitely stronger. But instead of dealing with that and having a sequel about the consequences of his new-found God status or the outside real world where he was still a schmuck, they just undid the ending of the movie and made him a guy who could fly for no particular reason., then added a bunch of rogue programs who also broke the rules but weren't omnipotent and lived in a consequence-free bubble somewhere inside the Matrix. Lame. quote:Before the sequels, it was assumed that they could simply keep firing EMP after EMP down there outside the gate, which would have been an extremely good defensive tactic; thus they needed the codes to get past their defenses. Nitpick: The computers didn't want the Zion access codes, Smith did. He even unplugged his secret-service headset thingy, so the other computers couldn't hear him try to torture it out of Morpheus, and when the other two agents came back into the room, they were surprised at what was going on. In the first movie the computers didn't seem to care much about Zion at all, they just shot up the ships when they tried to hack in and steal more humans. Smith on the other hand hated people, and wanted to kill the Zionists so he could quit his day job and go virtual fishing or whatever Agents do when they retire.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 10:10 |
|
|
Volute posted:6. Neo is "the one" because he figures out that you can go beyond just bending the rules but still playing the game to directly controlling the simulation, presuably by hand-editing the great database in the sky or whatever with his mind. He can fly, he can stop bullets, he can kill agents or at least kick them back to wherever they come from by willing it, he could presumably delete the matrix or turn everyone's hair blue or do anything he can imagine instantly. Someone posted something similar on SA here before, and it is important because due to this the sequels don't make any sense. Neo basically figures out that he doesn't have to adhere to the rules of the Matrix, because the Matrix is not physical reality. Imagine if you are playing a game of monopoly against 3 jackasses. You are all so deeply immersed in the game it has become close to your reality. If you lose you die. You are most definitely not on the winning side when suddenly you realise you are in fact playing a board game and don't would rather stay alive. You are almost broke so what do you do? Get your hand into the bank and cheat as much money as you want. Also you just kinda move your little plastic car around wherever you please. Your opponents have no idea what the hell just hit them because they are still to entrenched in the game. Within the context of the game, you are basically omnipotent. Now Reloaded fucks this up within the very first 5 minutes by giving your foes 'upgrades'. Imagine in our game of monopoly that all your opponents suddenly get hotels everywhere. That's very nice for them, but to you it's pointless, because you can get all the money you want from the bank and you can just teleport around. Hell, you can even go to the kitchen, grab a knife and stab on of the jackasses in the neck (basically what Neo does at the end of Matrix 1). So in the Matrix we have Neo who is capable of doing anything he wants, because he doesn't have to obey the Matrix rules. With this in mind the entirety of the sequels just don't make any sense.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 10:55 |
|
|
Namarrgon posted:Neo basically figures out that he doesn't have to adhere to the rules of the Matrix, because the Matrix is not physical reality. Imagine if you are playing a game of monopoly against 3 jackasses. You are all so deeply immersed in the game it has become close to your reality. If you lose you die. You are most definitely not on the winning side when suddenly you realise you are in fact playing a board game and don't would rather stay alive. You are almost broke so what do you do? Get your hand into the bank and cheat as much money as you want. Also you just kinda move your little plastic car around wherever you please. Your opponents have no idea what the hell just hit them because they are still to entrenched in the game. Within the context of the game, you are basically omnipotent.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 16:11 |
|
Rate Thread:
