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Almost all of the hardcore Christians I know are Republicans. And almost all of them are against universal health care. Why is this? Jesus is very clear in the Bible saying that it is the responsibility of Christians to provide for all to the best of their ability. If you have the power to prevent the death of another human, but refuse out of personal interest, you are not being a good Christian. Did Jesus ever refuse to heal a sick person because they couldn't repay him? Luke 10:25-37 posted:25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 18:17 |
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| # ? Nov 20, 2009 22:18 |
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Because Jesus was acting as a private charity, not the government. This is really important for some great reason.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 18:33 |
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They're opposing it because they are Republicans, not because they are Christians. The Republicans have built up this big image of being pro-capitalist, pro-christian, etc... and by buying into one part of the party (for faith reasons) the fundamental Christian base has also bought into a large part of what the party is about. There is a healthy Christian-left in the world (and in America to a degree), the problem is that right-wing American Fundamentalists make the most noise while other groups are busy running soup kitchens, donating to charities, volunteering abroad, etc... I have yet to hear a Christian arguement against UHC except when I was trolling some Fox News streaming site around the time of the tea parties and said that Jesus was a socialist because he wanted to help the sick and poor I was promptly told that Jesus was not a socialist because he didn't want to do it via the government, then I got kicked out of the chat.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 18:37 |
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Their minister probably told them to vote that way just like they tell them to vote for all sorts of stupid poo poo, at least that's how it works in a LOT of baptist churches. Minister tells you to vote, you probably vote that way. Its not a christian thing though I figure, just conservative. I'm not religious, just based on experience of my relatives churches.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 18:46 |
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Christianity in the United States seems to view the federal government as some sort of new Roman empire (and Obama as some sort of Emperor Nero) since the state rejects their god (by way of separation of state and church). This line of thinking meshes well with the libertarian contempt of the state. The result is that you see Christians confusing libertarian values for Christian ones.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 19:12 |
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Because Jesus hated big government and taxes. It says it right there in the bible next to "own a shitload of guns" and "invade brown countries". You're not going to get a good answer because there is no good answer. Anybody who points to Christianity as the reason they hate UHC is either ignorant as hell or outright lying to you.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 19:17 |
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Vilerat
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Ronald McReagan posted:Because Jesus was acting as a private charity, not the government. This is really important for some great reason. EDIT - my suspicion is that they are willing to force others to conform to their religion by law, but aren't willing to force themselves to do so.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 19:21 |
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Nimbokwezer posted:This is the first answer I could think of. But then they jump at the chance to encode their religion into our laws when it comes to issues like gay marriage. If someone could point out why that's not hypocritical, I'm all ears. Hmm... owned. Yeah, you pretty much just owned every opponent of universal health care who also calls themselves a Christian. Nice work, I'll definitely be using this argument in real life.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 19:28 |
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RobotEmpire posted:Hmm... owned. I would bet that most rabid Christians have never actually sat down and read the bible cover to cover. They just do what  tells them to do.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 19:37 |
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I think you're creating a false dichotomy: either you believe in the proposed US Universal Health Care or you hate people and you don't want them to be helped. In reality, it's a much more complicated issue, and there's a spectrum of opinions on the issue. Boiling it down to "all or most Christians oppose legalizing same sex marriage and don't want to provide health care to people who need it" helps no one, as it just isn't true. A common argument against UHC, for example, is that it nets a lower quality health care system overall. Whether this is true or not is up for debate, but the point is that people can oppose UHC while still - in their minds - looking out for the greater good. If you care about my personal opinion, I'm a Christian, I support same-sex marriage, and I think some form of UHC is necessary, although perhaps not the system being proposed in the US .
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 22:13 |
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I believe you may be confusing Christianity with Supply-Side Christianity. http://www.buzzflash.com/contributo...17_franken.html
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 22:28 |
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Catholics are all about universal health care; despite what American evangelical protestants like to say, Catholics are Christians too.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 22:33 |
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American Evangelical Christianity isn't really related all that closely to the bible.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 22:38 |
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Just world hypothesis. Bad things happen to bad people, people get what they deserve. Sick people should have tried harder not to be poor. If anyone thinks anything evil it's pretty much always the just world hypothesis.
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| # ? Nov 07, 2009 23:51 |
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I'm surprised no one mentioned this yet: There is/was a part in the current healthcare bill that is or could be interpreted as allowing for federal funds to be used for abortions. Of course that vocal minority of christian pro-lifers picked up on this one small section and made it as their end-all be-all of the bill. Pretty clear cut for them, regardless of any other changes (good or bad) that could come from the bill. I'm more than supportive of the right to abortion, but if removing that passage from the bill would enable it to pass, then I would concede that loss, at least temporarily. And personally, I don't think one can reconcile capitalism with christianity.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 01:16 |
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Ibsen posted:I'm surprised no one mentioned this yet: There is/was a part in the current healthcare bill that is or could be interpreted as allowing for federal funds to be used for abortions. Of course that vocal minority of christian pro-lifers picked up on this one small section and made it as their end-all be-all of the bill. Pretty clear cut for them, regardless of any other changes (good or bad) that could come from the bill. The Christian radio I listen to uses the "government funded abortions" argument almost exclusively. While I don't agree with the reasoning, I understand it. If you truly believe that abortion is the same as murdering a newborn, how could you possibly support a plan that you perceive as aiding that practice? However, there are other issues that have been brought up, as well. There are flaws in the plan itself and its complexity that have nothing to do with fundamental issues of Christianity. There is the fact that the government will be requiring citizens to purchase something for their own good that they may not be able to afford and can fine and / or jail you for not complying. There is the fact that it is > 2000 pages and hasn't had time to be fully analyzed and it is being fast-tracked. They would like more time to read and understand all of its implications.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 02:18 |
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Just world hypothesis. No. Christians (unless they ignore the Bible) understand that Jesus actually promises things will be harder for his followers in this world. It will suck, you'll get oppressed, get fired, get sick, just like everybody else and probably be stepped on by a secular world. Those guys in the new testament had pretty rough lives, but they still loved Jesus and kicked off his church. Paul did his best work while in prison. You get your goodies in Heaven.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 02:22 |
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I think it is generally because they assume if Republicans are "right" about things like same sex marriage and abortion they are right about everything else too. They equate being Christian with being Republican, so opposing the Republican party is opposing Christianity. As a Christian and a liberal I think it amounts to gullibility and laziness.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 02:39 |
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Kevlar v2.0 posted:I myself am not a Christian, but I'd like to hear some reasons against universal health care from a Christian point of view. It seems pretty clear to me from the scripture that providing health care for all would be doing exactly what Jesus wants us to do. I am a Christian and I support universal health care, but I don't think that being a Christian requires you to either support or oppose health reform. Jesus and the apostles taught next to nothing about the role of government. They taught us the end goals (justice, compassion, spiritual renewal through faith in God, forgiveness), but they taught us how to achieve those things as either individuals or as communities of believers. We don't have a prescription about how to achieve those goals as either voters or political leaders. A Christian might oppose the health plan because he believes that it would hurt the overall quality of health care, or because he thinks it would cause additional suffering by increasing unemployment, or because he thinks that it would be dangerous in principle to have the government managing large parts of the economy. To me, it's as large of a leap to say "Jesus taught us to care for the sick, therefore we should raise taxes and set up a universal health care system" as it as to say "Jesus taught us that a man may only divorce a wife for reasons of sexual immorality, therefore we should change the law to make that the only legal reason for divorce" or to say "Jesus taught us to care for the poor, therefore we should raise the minimum wage to $9 an hour."
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 05:17 |
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Giant Squid posted:To me, it's as large of a leap to say "Jesus taught us to care for the sick, therefore we should raise taxes and set up a universal health care system" but it's not like that, it's more like "Jesus taught us to care for the sick and poor, therefore we should do something about all these poor people dying because they can't afford healthcare" and the American brand of Christianity is likely to respond with crap like "they got sick because they didn't pray enough" or "if they pray more then God will give them money" Mahatma Gandhi posted:I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. The materialism of affluent Christian countries appears to contradict the claims of Jesus Christ that says it's not possible to worship both Mammon [false god of riches and avarice] and God at the same time.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 05:37 |
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Griz posted:but it's not like that, it's more like "Jesus taught us to care for the sick and poor, therefore we should do something about all these poor people dying because they can't afford healthcare" OK, so what should we do? Your opinion about how effective UHC is has nothing to do with questions of right and wrong. It's a matter of whether or not you think a particular law is a smart way of reaching a certain goal. Let me give another example: Christian 1 says "We should have UHC so that everyone can have health care. That will help the poor." Christian 2 says "We shouldn't change the system because UHC will increase unemployment and lower the quality of health care. That will hurt the poor." Both Christians could use the same scripture to justify their positions, but neither one has any business doing that because Jesus did not teach us much of anything about what the government should do. quote:and the American brand of Christianity is likely to respond with crap like "they got sick because they didn't pray enough" or "if they pray more then God will give them money" You're painting with a really, really broad brush here, and your quote only applies if you're already convinced that the only people who oppose UHC are selfish assholes who don't give a piss about their fellow man. The overwhelming majority of Christians who are against UHC aren't against it for any religious reason, they're against it because they don't think it will work or they oppose government programs on principle. I'm just arguing that you can't really justify or oppose a program like this in any sensible way by using the Bible. Giant Squid fucked around with this message at Nov 08, 2009 around 06:01 |
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 05:57 |
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Giant Squid posted:OK, so what should we do? Your opinion about how effective UHC is has nothing to do with questions of right and wrong. It's a matter of whether or not you think a particular law is a smart way of reaching a certain goal. There's no right answer to that, but they could start by actually trying to do something about the problem instead of just raising absurd objections to everyone else's attempts. quote:The overwhelming majority of Christians who are against UHC aren't against it for any religious reason, they're against it because they don't think it will work or they oppose government programs on principle. I'm just arguing that you can't really justify or oppose a program like this in any sensible way by using the Bible. The overwhelming majority of American Christians don't actually follow the Bible unless it's convenient to them (like the people who protest outside abortion clinics and then go in themselves when they accidentally get pregnant). Religious teachings are less important than the ridiculous lies being fed to them by corporate-funded politicians who pretend to be religious in order to attract more votes.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 06:14 |
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Kevlar v2.0 posted:Almost all of the hardcore Christians I know are Republicans. I'm assuming you hang out with a lot of hardcore Christian Republicans then. Odd taste in friends.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 06:21 |
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Griz posted:There's no right answer to that, but they could start by actually trying to do something about the problem instead of just raising absurd objections to everyone else's attempts. Lowering taxes so that everyone has more money to spend on health care would be "doing something" but I don't think you'd like that solution very much. (And neither would I.) Again, this has next to nothing to do with religion and everything to do with how angry you are that they oppose your political beliefs. quote:The overwhelming majority of American Christians don't actually follow the Bible unless it's convenient to them (like the people who protest outside abortion clinics and then go in themselves when they accidentally get pregnant). Religious teachings are less important than the ridiculous lies being fed to them by corporate-funded politicians who pretend to be religious in order to attract more votes. You're essentially making the other side into cartoon characters. Both sides use the standard "our opponents are against us because they're all easily persuaded idiots being led around by the nose" line too much anyway. The bottom line is that this question doesn't have a good answer because religion doesn't have a whole lot to do with why some people oppose UHC. Giant Squid fucked around with this message at Nov 08, 2009 around 06:35 |
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 06:32 |
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I'm catholic and I support UHC. THREAD DESTROYED
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 06:58 |
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Kid Awesome posted:I'm catholic and I support UHC. But you're not a "real" Christian, you just follow the orders of a man in a pointy hat. Us true, Protestant Christians only go by the Bible. 
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 07:01 |
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Griz posted:... and the American brand of Christianity is likely to respond with crap like "they got sick because they didn't pray enough" or "if they pray more then God will give them money" Griz posted:The overwhelming majority of American Christians don't actually follow the Bible unless it's convenient to them (like the people who protest outside abortion clinics and then go in themselves when they accidentally get pregnant). Religious teachings are less important than the ridiculous lies being fed to them by corporate-funded politicians who pretend to be religious in order to attract more votes. I was going to try to respond to this obscene stupidity, but instead I'll just post these links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man http://www.theskepticsguide.org/res...lfallacies.aspx
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 07:11 |
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People who self-identify as religious are more likely to support Republicans. Republicans don't support universal health care. Thread closed.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 07:15 |
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Imaduck posted:I was going to try to respond to this obscene stupidity, but instead I'll just post these links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man http://www.theskepticsguide.org/res...lfallacies.aspx It's not a strawman if people actually believe it and have been criticised for it by religious scholars - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_gospel
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 07:15 |
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Nesnej posted:Christianity in the United States seems to view the federal government as some sort of new Roman empire (and Obama as some sort of Emperor Nero) since the state rejects their god (by way of separation of state and church). This line of thinking meshes well with the libertarian contempt of the state. The result is that you see Christians confusing libertarian values for Christian ones. Warning: Speculative Theories Ahead Also, many confuse capitalist values for Christian values. And they confuse nationalism for religion. Now, the reasons for that are complicated. I'd say it has mostly to do with having that thinking ingrained and into their psyches since childhood and reinforced during formative years. It's not exactly that most people are idiots as you commonly hear, but that most haven't been "taught" how to think for themselves or question their world, or world views. I guess most people are ignorant is more correct than most people are idiots; they can't think in a complex pattern because they were never exposed to the concept or taught how, and what they were exposed to runs counter to the concept. If all you hear is, "This is the only way things work, there is no alternative," throughout most of your early and young adult life, you've been molded into a certain format, and breaking the mold is difficult to impossible. Jimi Hendrix fucked around with this message at Nov 08, 2009 around 11:45 |
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 11:41 |
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Kid Awesome posted:I'm catholic and I support UHC. And there is no political party out there for you, and since most people would rather conform to existing, prepackaged views, anyone who considers themselves first and foremost Christian would be inclined to go along with party lines and oppose UHC regardless of "details".
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 12:00 |
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Because they don't think, I guess. Most people never take the minute to sit and sincerely reflect on something. They don't try to reconcile the contradictions in their views, or consider what is best for the common good, or anything like that. And it's a majority, who simply fail to reflect; very strong opinions, for them, come before any real understanding.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 13:45 |
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Griz posted:It's not a strawman if people actually believe it and have been criticised for it by religious scholars - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_gospel You've picked a minority opinion and have applied it liberally to an entire group. You're asking a large group to defend a point of view that most of them don't believe. Even you're article agrees with the point that this is an uncommon viewpoint: quote:Within the Christian community, prosperity theology has been criticized as being antithetical to traditional biblical teaching INUYASHA posted:And there is no political party out there for you, and since most people would rather conform to existing, prepackaged views, anyone who considers themselves first and foremost Christian would be inclined to go along with party lines and oppose UHC regardless of "details". Seriously, the last few threads I've read involving religion have been nothing but circle jerks of people saying "hurr, look at this one example, it shows that all Christians are stupid morons who contradict themselves and hate everyone." I'm sorry you've had bad experiences with religion, and I can totally understand the atheist point of view. However, don't sit here and claim to me that you're being open-minded when you always minimize your opponents arguments down to the most selfish, evil, and contradictory viewpoints you can think up.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 16:40 |
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Caseus Maximus posted:
This lowers my opinion of religious people. The above statement implies that one is living well because of an expectation of reward. A truly good person should not need an incentive for doing what is right. From that statement you can infer why health care is still an issue in this country(USA). Fivethousandpyreals fucked around with this message at Nov 08, 2009 around 17:12 |
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 17:03 |
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INUYASHA posted:And there is no political party out there for you, and since most people would rather conform to existing, prepackaged views, anyone who considers themselves first and foremost Christian would be inclined to go along with party lines and oppose UHC regardless of "details". Ehh....you are aware that the majority of catholics are democrats, right? edit: The idea of saying people of X do Y, why is that? When X and Y are barely related is loving retarded to begin with. The OP should be ashamed of himself 
Kid Awesome fucked around with this message at Nov 08, 2009 around 17:43 |
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 17:37 |
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Just one thing: ANY kind of UHC >>> no UHC American exceptionalism at it's best: "We are too loving stupid to implement an universal healthcare system. The other developed nations are so much smarter than us and that's why they can get it to work." Congratulations. You are just giving every anti-American sentiment in the world more ammunition.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 18:05 |
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I'm Christian, more or less Libertarian, and HIGHLY opposed to any sort of UHC -- at least with our current political and economic climate. No, it is not because I sell insurance. Yes, a full-on UHC system would impact my business but I'd survive. My main issue is that we can't get ANY socialized system running correctly or efficiently. Cases in point: - Welfare is wrought with fraud and abuse, and is running a deficit. - Medicaid is needlessly complicated from an administrative and legal standpoint, and pays medical providers so poorly for their services they may as well work for free. - Medicare is also needlessly complicated, a financial Sarlacc pit for the government, is still not an effective solution to those who are its beneficiaries, and is like a huge stale croissant with all its layers of bureaucracy. - Social Security is going bankrupt. There's a lot of stuff in the healthcare reform bill that's good, like making private insurers offer coverage to everyone. However, the government plan is going to be a huge clusterfuck of stupid arbitrary rules that no one can understand. My opinion has nothing to do with either being Christian or being in the insurance industry. It's purely based on logic and past performance of government programs. It's really the equivalent of your not-so-bright uncle coming to you with yet ANOTHER "great investment opportunity" that hasn't been quite thought through.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 21:54 |
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The Jizzer posted:My main issue is that we can't get ANY socialized system running correctly or efficiently. Cases in point: Do you know what you are doing? You are telling the world that America is a disgrace to the industrialized world. That America is too incompetent to do what all other industrialized nations have achieved without major problems. Why do you hate America so much? Edit: Just look at the quote in my post... Hungry Gerbil fucked around with this message at Nov 08, 2009 around 22:07 |
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 22:04 |
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Hungry Gerbil posted:Just one thing: I've never heard this as an argument against implementing universal health care in the United States.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 22:06 |
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spcefrk posted:I believe you may be confusing Christianity with Supply-Side Christianity. This is quite fantastic, thank you for posting.
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| # ? Nov 08, 2009 23:10 |
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