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Loving Africa Chaps
Dec 3, 2007

We had not left it yet, but when I would wake in the night, I would lie, listening, homesick for it already.


With all the accountant chat that crops up in the main thread i thought it's high time we had a place to properly discuss the finances of football. Increasingly in the english game it is the clubs financial performance that dictates where it is likely to end up in the table. With new stadiums on the cards for several clubs and administration looming for others lets looks at a summary of the current Premier league.

Arsenal
Revenue: £313.3m
Pre-tax profit : £45.5m
Debt: £318m
Notes: - Revenue boosted by £80m generated by sales of flats in highbury square
- Wage bill continues to rise
- Possible takeover may lead to increase in debt

Aston Villa
Revenue: £75.5m
Pre-tax profit: -£0.8m
Debt: 0?
Notes: - Good potential for growth if they claim 4th spot this year

Birmingham
Blackburn
Bolton
Burnley

Chelsea
Revenue: £206.4m
Pre-tax profit: -£44.4m
Debt: 0?
Notes: - Huge wage bill
- Will plantini except they are debt free?
- Abramovich still vital to their running

Everton
Fulham
Hull

Liverpool
Revenue: £161m
Pre-tax profit: -£42.6m
Debt: £359m
Notes: - Owners unwilling to invest
- New stadium will increase club debts
- Each renegotiation of loans pushes interest payments upwards
- Possibly no champions league next year

Man City

Man Utd
Revenue: £256.2m
Pre-tax profit: -£44.8m
Debt: £649.4m
Notes: - Absolutely eye-watering debt with interest payments to match
- Losses bound to effect transfer budget soon

Portsmouth
Revenue: £70.5m
Pre-tax profit: -£16.9m
Debt: £80m
Notes: - Ownership farce means they have several people who own areas key to the club and no one who can put cash into the club, probably the only thing that can stop fratton park being turned into flats
- Relegation to championship is almost certain to seal its fate
- Court hearing in February to determine if it should be declared bankrupt

Stoke
Sunderland

Spurs
Revenue: £114.9m
Pre-tax profit: £39.8m
Debt: £0
Notes: - currently in great financial health without Champions league football
- new stadium will saddle club with large debt and possibly wipe out profits

West Ham
Wigan
Wolves


It's going to be very interesting in the next few years to see how this all plays out. As much as we Arsenal fans like to be smug, the revenue from highbury square is going to dry up this year and we'll not be as well off as before. Tottenham look in a great position but if they are saddled with 300million of debt from a stadium and miss out on the champions league it could get messy. Liverpool fans better pray that any new stadium is paid for in cash as an extra £300million of debt will cripple the club even more. The sheer size of Utd's debt means they would stand no chance of reducing it in time to avoid punishment from plantini if he gets what he wants.

One thing is clear, the troubles of clubs bought in highly leveraged deals mean we are unlikely to see it again. It has crippled two big clubs and is likely to bankrupt two others.

Anything people want me to add to the OP i will.

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Pissflaps
Oct 20, 2002



The Archbishop of Banterbury



Lyric Proof Vest posted:

Anything people want me to add to the OP i will.

the cost of pies at each top flight ground

tbp
Mar 1, 2008



*laughs at portsmouth*

But seriously Liverpool isn't looking so good lately so I have no room to laugh

Loving Africa Chaps
Dec 3, 2007

We had not left it yet, but when I would wake in the night, I would lie, listening, homesick for it already.


Pissflaps posted:

the cost of pies at each top flight ground

ill do it for the emirates after the next home game, everyone else can supply the rest

msj817
Apr 1, 2003

Please help me help you forget about Jozy.

goodvisiontoucan posted:

*laughs at portsmouth*

But seriously Liverpool isn't looking so good lately so I have no room to laugh

Tom Hicks just sold a huge chunk of his claim of the Rangers, and has lost controlling interest. I suspect he isn't far from doing this with the Stars and Liverpool. He's a common target of local media interest here, and he is beyond flat broke. Begone you bastard.

Tom Hicks business model ITT:
1. Buy sports team
2. Build new stadium
3. Don't reinvest in team
4. Leave team in shambles

Starbucks
Jul 7, 2002

I think the most important thing is a head, not only for a footballer but for any person.


Lyric Proof Vest posted:

ill do it for the emirates after the next home game, everyone else can supply the rest

Pies are about ~£3 or so I think, honestly I never really buy anything there except a pint and maybe a coffee.

Stim
Sep 6, 2006

We are not feeling edgy; the system is feeling nervous.


msj817 posted:

Tom Hicks just sold a huge chunk of his claim of the Rangers, and has lost controlling interest. I suspect he isn't far from doing this with the Stars and Liverpool. He's a common target of local media interest here, and he is beyond flat broke. Begone you bastard.

Tom Hicks business model ITT:
1. Buy sports team
2. Build new stadium
3. Don't reinvest in team
4. Leave team in shambles

You can eliminate Part 2 sometimes. His history with Corinthians is disgusting. It's pretty amazing to look back and see how Liverpool turned down DIC but accepted Hicks.

Some good but now outdated links:
Forbes' Most Valuable Soccer Clubs
Deloitte Football Money League

Milan are currently in pretty good shape financially. Galliani has taken steps to ensure we are run debt free and he's promised that we won't invest any money we don't actually make. I'm not sure if we reached that point but selling Kaka and getting his wages off our books did help. Nesta, Dida, Pirlo and Ronaldinho all have large wages but these will be gone in a few seasons. Seems like we've already started to prepare for any rule changes Platini brings in.

Even though Serie A has financial problems the major clubs are not overburdened with debt. Roma have some financial problems but they aren't nearly as bad as they were a few years ago. I guess Serie A learnt it's lesson when Fiorentina and Napoli ceased to exist and many other clubs were nearly bankrupt. This may change with new TV deals and new stadiums being built.

What's the situation in Spain right now? I was under the impression most clubs owed the banks millions and would be forced to pay up soon.

Luigi Thirty
Apr 30, 2006

Emergency confection port.


How many English clubs have gone under this year? Just King's Lynn down in the NPL or were there some more nobody's heard of?

JingleBells
Jan 7, 2007

Oh what fun it is to see the Harriers win away!


Luigi Thirty posted:

How many English clubs have gone under this year? Just King's Lynn down in the NPL or were there some more nobody's heard of?

Fisher Athletic were wound up in May, they like King's Lynn (and Pompey supposedly) owed money to the taxman, who's pretty much the only creditor you have to pay there and then else no more football.

Bland
Aug 31, 2008


Winner Of The TRP I dont actually remember the contest im pretty high right now here's your venkys tag




Nobody do Sunderlands finances, it hurts too much

FullLeatherJacket
Dec 30, 2004
Chiunque puņ essere Luther Blissett, semplicemente adottando il nome Luther Blissett



quote:

Will plantini except they are debt free?

Hold me closer, Tony Cantolar.

Vando
Oct 26, 2007

I want to be one of
those madmen


I am far far too aware of the precise state of Ebbsfleet's finances, and it is Not Good.

Though it does make me wonder quite how all the other BSP sides are still going because gently caress me our playing budget is tiny.

kcer
May 28, 2004

Today is good weather
for an airstrike.


Bland posted:

Nobody do Sunderlands finances, it hurts too much

It's all rainbows and lollipops on the Wear compred to Newcastle

Stim
Sep 6, 2006

We are not feeling edgy; the system is feeling nervous.


Maybe somebody can help me here. Merthyr Tydfil FC faced closure a few months ago. The chairman essentially didn't want to put any of his own money into the club anymore and said he would sell the club if people tackled the debt problem (around £315,000). For some reason he turned down several offers and opted to put the club into administration instead, which left the future uncertain.

The club managed to eventually survive after supports lobbied the High Courts in London. What I can't understand is why some chairmen are so eager to put the club into administration instead of selling? Is there some kind of personal benefit to them?

Bovril Delight
Feb 22, 2005



Who is going to buy Portsmouth? They've been sold twice already and are a financial nightmare.

Total Meatlove
Jan 28, 2007


Rangers died, shoujo Hitler cried ;_;


No one with sense. They'll wait until they go into Administration, pay pennies in the pound on their debt, buy the club cheap and then invest.

Stim
Sep 6, 2006

We are not feeling edgy; the system is feeling nervous.


The Guardian posted:

Sacha Gaydamak, the former owner of Portsmouth who says he is owed at least £28m by the club, has demanded that the current proprietor, Ali al-Faraj, tell him when he will be paid and has cast doubt over who is in control at Fratton Park.

Speaking to the Guardian last night the Franco-Russian businessman revealed he feels "frustrated" at the confusion on the south coast, and that he wishes to know the identity of the "ultimate beneficial owner" as he is finding it difficult to engage in dialogue with the correct parties in regard to recouping his money.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/...inding-up-order

It says later in the article that there is a timeframe for paying him some of the money but some of it is still disputed. Pretty amazing that he doesn't know who owns the club.

dkj
Feb 18, 2009

USMNT USMNT USMNT USMNT USMNT USMNT


How are Manchester United so far in debt? Considering how much they usually spend on transfers, the L80mil they got for Ronaldo, that seems like years and years of debt accumulation.

Is it really just Veron type deals that are doing this and large wages, or is there something I'm missing?

Pissflaps
Oct 20, 2002



The Archbishop of Banterbury



dkj posted:

Is it really just Veron type deals that are doing this and large wages, or is there something I'm missing?

The club owes the money that the club's current owners had to borrow to buy the club. Or something.

dkj
Feb 18, 2009

USMNT USMNT USMNT USMNT USMNT USMNT


Pissflaps posted:

The club owes the money that the club's current owners had to borrow to buy the club. Or something.

They borrowed the money to take over the club and thats now the clubs debt?

Starbucks
Jul 7, 2002

I think the most important thing is a head, not only for a footballer but for any person.


dkj posted:

They borrowed the money to take over the club and thats now the clubs debt?
Pretty much, wonderful isn't it!

dkj
Feb 18, 2009

USMNT USMNT USMNT USMNT USMNT USMNT


Starbucks posted:

Pretty much, wonderful isn't it!

Kind of funny since the next person to take it over will have to borrow money to cover this debt.

Der Shovel
Dec 26, 2003

Keep on dancing, Moomin

dkj posted:

Is it really just Veron type deals that are doing this and large wages, or is there something I'm missing?

Yes, you are missing something. That little something is Malcom Glazer buying the club by essentially borrowing the money with the club he didn't at the time own being used as collateral. I'm surprised you haven't heard about this as it's been talked about a lot.

Loving Africa Chaps
Dec 3, 2007

We had not left it yet, but when I would wake in the night, I would lie, listening, homesick for it already.


dkj posted:

They borrowed the money to take over the club and thats now the clubs debt?

Its just like a mortgage. You borrow money against its value in order to buy it but in this case instead of your income paying off the debt its the house.

Zero Star
Jan 22, 2006

Robit the paranoid blogger.


This will probably sound stupid, but what happens if Portsmouth are made bankrupt? Will they have to resign from the league and start again at the bottom, the way Accrington Stanley and Aldershot did? And if so, how will it affect the way teams get promoted into the Premiership?

Loving Africa Chaps
Dec 3, 2007

We had not left it yet, but when I would wake in the night, I would lie, listening, homesick for it already.


Zero Star posted:

This will probably sound stupid, but what happens if Portsmouth are made bankrupt? Will they have to resign from the league and start again at the bottom, the way Accrington Stanley and Aldershot did? And if so, how will it affect the way teams get promoted into the Premiership?

Not sure, I think because they owe money to the taxman and there isn't a holding company as far as im aware portsmouth will cease to exist so a new team will have to form and play somewhere else then fratton park. I think it will mean one more promotion into the championship and the leagues below.

Jollzwhin
Oct 13, 2004

Just like watching Brazil

Depends whether they can hang on and go into administration or whether the winding-up order succeeds I believe. Haven't posted about City here yet because I don't have details about our most recent finances but I'll make an effort post when I find it.

Loving Africa Chaps
Dec 3, 2007

We had not left it yet, but when I would wake in the night, I would lie, listening, homesick for it already.


Jollzwhin posted:

Depends whether they can hang on and go into administration or whether the winding-up order succeeds I believe. Haven't posted about City here yet because I don't have details about our most recent finances but I'll make an effort post when I find it.

please do, i still don't understand exactly how your owners are funding you and how it differs to chelsea's situation.

Jollzwhin
Oct 13, 2004

Just like watching Brazil

Lyric Proof Vest posted:

please do, i still don't understand exactly how your owners are funding you and how it differs to chelsea's situation.

Now Abramovic has supposedly written-off his interest free loans, not a lot - although of course we have bigger pockets. We are also buying up nearby land to COMS as well (the long-term plan is to have the youth team and main team training grounds in the same place hopefully on the far side of little COMS (a small stadium to the side of COMS used for reserve games)) and this land is being moved into a holding company at the moment - but as I said, I'll effort post once I find our financial breakdown - there was a huge Deloitte breakdown of finances of all the Premier League clubs but I can't find it anywhere at the moment.

Stim
Sep 6, 2006

We are not feeling edgy; the system is feeling nervous.


Zero Star posted:

This will probably sound stupid, but what happens if Portsmouth are made bankrupt? Will they have to resign from the league and start again at the bottom, the way Accrington Stanley and Aldershot did? And if so, how will it affect the way teams get promoted into the Premiership?

If they owe money to the HMRC and there is no real proposition to pay them off then they will cease to exist. Portsmouth are a team which doesn't have too many assets either. The stadium is small and doesn't have many facilities which can be sold off, the training ground is poo poo and there aren't any players there who will get a big free. The club will probably need to be relaunched but as far as I'm aware there the FA has never inserted a team into the football league. In Italy, the Italian FA has the power to place a team in any lower league depending on their size (The relaunched Napoli were placed higher than the relaunched Fiorentina).

What's worrying for Portsmouth is the fact parts of the stadium and surrounding land are owned by different parties. If Portsmouth go bust then I would not be surprised to see a few property developers swoop in and develop the land.

Seksiness
Aug 24, 2006
I screwed your grandma and all I got was this lousy custom title... and herpes

If we go bust before the completion of the season do all the matches won and lost during the season get expunged from the record? It would shake up the final league positions quite a lot.

Quite honestly though we are hosed and I have no confidence in the official announcements from the club (embargo has already been reported as close to being lifted a couple of times) and now that we have a convicted fraudster looking over our books I am resigned to it not getting any better.

The stadium ground thing is interesting. When Sacha sold the club to Al Fahim an option was made for the property rights to be transferred over if a payment was made within a certain period of time, that period was missed and Sachas company has control over the property rights now. Not sure (details are very wooly) about what happened to these when the club was bought by Al-Faraj (who has never been to a game) but I remember reading that Al-Fahim was given a bollocking by Al-Faraj's advisors because he came out in the press saying he had full control of all the property rights, which he didn't, he only had the option to purchase.

Now Sacha is owed about £28million from the sale of the club and is getting pissed off that he has no idea who is actually paying him and where that money is coming from I can very clearly see a situation where property developers move in as soon as the club is declared bankrupt if just to recoup the money Sacha has lost.

I hate this season.

Eric Cantonese
Dec 21, 2004



Chicks dig me because
I rarely wear underwear.
And when I do, it's usually
something unusual.


Warning - Potential Navel-Gazing Alert...

One of the big questions that comes to my mind after reading all these posts and other articles is how profitable any football club can really be. I guess Spurs show that you can make some profit out of top level football, but if you looked at what else you could do with the money that it costs to run a club and keep it on the top level, soccer/football really isn't that great of an investment.

It seems like so many of the costs are endless and you don't have salary caps. For the most part, you don't have municipal assistance for infrastructure developments. All the money has to be generated on your own. In the meantime, your customers are picky, the media attention is intense, and your monetary layout doesn't necessarily get the results you would expect. There are probably a multitude of other niggling costs that I'm not thinking of either.

I could see how having a club would be a good part of a field of assets. For example, if you were an entertainment conglomerate or some other massive corporate holding company who could use the club for multiple purposes aside from the love of football. How often does that really happen, though? And that still doesn't take away from the fact that having top level football probably means seeing your money underperform as opposed to the other things you could be doing with it.

So unless you have a fan-owned club like Barca or Real Madrid, it seems like there is always going to be an eventual point where good football and good business sense conflict.

Stim posted:

What's worrying for Portsmouth is the fact parts of the stadium and surrounding land are owned by different parties. If Portsmouth go bust then I would not be surprised to see a few property developers swoop in and develop the land.

From a sheer numbers point of view, I wouldn't be surprised if it would make more sense to turn that land into some other kind of property development like a shopping center or an office park.

The Clit Avoider
Aug 11, 2002

El Profesional


Looks like that new stadium pompey were planning not so long ago is going to be a Tesco's

Luigi Thirty
Apr 30, 2006

Emergency confection port.


Gr31lly posted:

Looks like that new stadium pompey were planning not so long ago is going to be a Tesco's

Some non-league team got so far in debt they had to sell their stadium to get turned into a Sainsbury's and now play in their training pitch, I forget who.

Incitatus
Dec 16, 2005

Show me your Gen-O face.

Der Shovel posted:

Yes, you are missing something. That little something is Malcom Glazer buying the club by essentially borrowing the money with the club he didn't at the time own being used as collateral. I'm surprised you haven't heard about this as it's been talked about a lot.

Malcolm Glazer is horrible. Look at the illustrious history of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers to understand his ownership genius.

K U N T Z
Dec 29, 2008

The Lot Of You...

The Glazers' business model is borrow money using the club/ground as collateral then put themselves on the payroll.

So they get a fat paycheck and the club has to make huge interest payments.

Starbucks
Jul 7, 2002

I think the most important thing is a head, not only for a footballer but for any person.


You know the situation with Portsmouth really has me thinking about the "fit and proper" test. I mean if someone can buy the club without disclosing any funds, not actually paying anyone on time in the first year. The test must not be complicated at all, there is no clear evidence of fiscal security that I can see.


Really feel sorry for pompey fans, the owner has let them down, and in a way the fa has too, because more needs to be done to make sure poo poo like this never happens

Outrespective
Oct 9, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 3122 days!


Starbucks posted:

You know the situation with Portsmouth really has me thinking about the "fit and proper" test. I mean if someone can buy the club without disclosing any funds, not actually paying anyone on time in the first year. The test must not be complicated at all, there is no clear evidence of fiscal security that I can see.


Really feel sorry for pompey fans, the owner has let them down, and in a way the fa has too, because more needs to be done to make sure poo poo like this never happens

I think it's mainly there to stop someone like Mugabe coming in and buying Bolton.

Loving Africa Chaps
Dec 3, 2007

We had not left it yet, but when I would wake in the night, I would lie, listening, homesick for it already.


Outrespective posted:

I think it's mainly there to stop someone like Mugabe coming in and buying Bolton.

Mugabe would do much much better then a lot of owners. He'd put half the gdp of the country into the club to boost his ego

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Luigi Thirty
Apr 30, 2006

Emergency confection port.


Lyric Proof Vest posted:

Mugabe would do much much better then a lot of owners. He'd put half the gdp of the country into the club to boost his ego

Half of a pound is still 50p!

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