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Is anyone else as ridiculously excited about electric bikes as I am? I know they don't have the range just yet to be more than just a curiosity to those of us with long commutes, but they will before long. I'm not asking for much, 150 mile range and $6k would have me in a dealer forthwith. I'm not sure why I'm digging on electric bikes so much. Maybe it's because I like riding but don't really get the appeal of the sound a motorcycle makes? Perhaps I like electric bikes because of the ease of maintenance? My fascination could be a result of what seems to be a better performance and styling potential with electric bikes than their internal combustion brethren. How can you not love no gears and therefore never being in the wrong gear or at the wrong RPM for a turn? The most promising real world bike right now, in my opinion, is the Brammo Enertia. For under $8k you get a bike that weighs 324lbs, looks good, a 40 mile city, 20 mile highway range, and a 60+mph top speed. Yeah, I know, the range isn't great for a long distance ride, but most people could easily commute to work, charge the bike, and commute home. The Enertia has a built in battery charger that just takes a standard 10amp, 115v outlet to charge the batteries from dead to full in 4 hours. The other main contender for the "actually affordable by normal people while maintaining some semblance of range" is the uncleverly named Zero from Zero Motorcycles. The Zero features a top speed of 55mph, 55 mile range city, not listed but much less on the highway, 270lbs total weight, and all for the low low price of $9950. The Zero isn't going to win any beauty contests, but it is available in 3 different configurations: Off Road, Street, and Dual Sport. Like the Enertia, the Zero recharges from a standard 10amp, 115v outlet in 4 hours. In the realm of retardedly expensive bikes with tons of power and no range you'll find things like the Mission Motors One and the Motoczysz E1pc. Both bikes sport no range, 150mph+ top speeds, ridiculous on-track performance, and $65k+ stickers. At any rate, please tell me that there are other people who can't wait for the price to come down a little more and the range to go up a bit. I mean, how could you possibly not want to throw your leg over a loving real life tie fighter? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XKbwWfbxNU
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Dec 30, 2009 21:19
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Honestly, no, I'm not excited. I'm not threadshitting either, I've given it a lot of thought, and really tried to make myself excited for electric bikes over the past few years. The complete lack of sound, smells, and general racket that a gasoline engine makes seems really disappointing to me. Also, theres a beautiful complex symphony of parts and actions involved in a running gasoline engine that just isnt reproduced in an electric motor. Shifting gears is also fun. It really sounds like a lot of Ducati-owner-esque "you just dont get the SOUL MAN" bullshit, but really, thats what it boils down to for me. I'm dreading electric bikes, actually. Propane/CNG/Hydrogen power? BRING THAT ON. Its all the fun of internal combustion without the emissions.
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Dec 30, 2009 22:04
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Phat_Albert posted:Honestly, no, I'm not excited. I'm not threadshitting either, I've given it a lot of thought, and really tried to make myself excited for electric bikes over the past few years. The complete lack of sound, smells, and general racket that a gasoline engine makes seems really disappointing to me. This nails it for me. I'm a sucker for sound and theater and raw machinery. I'm excited for electric motorcycles for those that are excited for them, but they don't move me.
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Dec 30, 2009 22:14
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixAHUWgBKsw Maybe when it hits this Point :P http://dalefranks.com/cycles/index.php/2009/12/electric-motorcycles-are-not-practical/ This guy did a good job of explaining why its just not yet a good idea, and hes right. until someone comes up with a better battery, electric bikes are never going to advance to being normal.
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Dec 30, 2009 22:19
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I'm with everyone else on this. Not particularly exciting, I actually dislike the thought of not having a gearshift. No fun. Also, these have a long way to go. Battery technology is going to have to improve a lot before these are viable. The ones you describe now are silly, all you've bought is an incredibly expensive and possibly better looking scooter.
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Dec 30, 2009 22:20
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They also are not any good for people who do more than commute. If I want to do a 300 mile day on an electric bike, there isnt a viable option right now. Really, as I mentioned before, I want to see CNG/LP/Hydrogen technology take off. Current engines can be retrofitted to use it, so we dont have to give up our beloved bikes, and the infrastructure isnt too far off for filling/swapping tanks. Granted its not too far off for swapping batteries, but that assumes a total shift in motorcycle propulsion to really make it worth while. Where I really see electric taking off is in the downtown runabout category. There are already plenty of places that rent electric scooters for sightseeing and such. Stop and go, low mileage use is where our current battery technology really hits its sweet spot. I think we're a long way off from a viable electric Goldwing, or true electric sportbike. Beve Stuscemi fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Dec 30, 2009 |
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Dec 30, 2009 22:25
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I know that electric bikes don't have the soul and passion you guys are looking for, but do you honestly enjoy the racket motorcycles make? As for not being able to commute on them, how so? If your commute, like mine, is farther than the range of the bike then yeah, of course, but what would make them not viable for the majority of people with a commute under 20 miles?
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Dec 30, 2009 22:33
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frozenphil posted:As for not being able to commute on them, how so? If your commute, like mine, is farther than the range of the bike then yeah, of course, but what would make them not viable for the majority of people with a commute under 20 miles? Personally, if I was intentionally limiting myself to a vehicle with a range of 20 miles I'd buy a bicycle or a Husky 510. It's like that uneasy feeling you get when your reserve light comes on your bike. "OK Pal, you've got 20ish miles to find gas". Only you are always on reserve. Plus you can't change your plans up, 'I'll come over after work' is only viable if they are on the way home, etc. There are situations it would work in, but I can't imagine spending the kind of money to do that. Plus if it comes down to just a simple boring commute vehicle, it's a long way from making more sense than spending $500 on some clapped out old Honda that will outlive myself and my children. I buy bikes because I don't like boring and utilitarian. Electric motorcycles are a long way from getting there for me. Though they are making progress, which is fun to watch. Really, I'm with the consensus and James May. Bring me Hydrogen fuel cells.
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Dec 30, 2009 22:39
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frozenphil posted:I know that electric bikes don't have the soul and passion you guys are looking for, but do you honestly enjoy the racket motorcycles make? The real question here is you DONT enjoy the racket of a motorcycle? If not, you need to experience some gnarly 2-strokes, and flatslide carbs, and V-4's, and desmodromic valvetrains, things like that. As for commuting, as has been menioned, you are always on reserve. You cant push it to the nearest gas station. Well, you can, and then wait for 4 hours while it charges, and you cant just have someone come by with some spare batteries or something like that. If your commute is 100% planned out, well within the limits of the bike, AND comes with a reasonable guarantee that it will never change or deviate, then yeah, commuting on one is fine.
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Dec 30, 2009 22:43
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frozenphil posted:do you honestly enjoy the racket motorcycles make? Yes, I do. The glorious scream of my GS as the tach moves closer to the redline never fails to put a smile on my face, and the deep drone sound of my ST at full throttle gives me a stiffy every time. frozenphil posted:As for not being able to commute on them, how so? If your commute, like mine, is farther than the range of the bike then yeah, of course, but what would make them not viable for the majority of people with a commute under 20 miles? In a case like mine where the drive to work is just over 10 miles one way an electric bike could work, but I might be screwed if something came up and I had to run downtown or to the south side and back to take care of some things. Don't get me wrong, I do like the idea of 100% electric vehicles, but I don't think I'm personally ready to own one yet.
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Dec 30, 2009 23:04
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I'm currently interning for these guys. http://www.brooklynmotorized.com/ Haven't gone public with anything yet though.  e: Also I think the sound of an electric bike could be just as enticing as a motor powered one. Though nothing can replace a proper backfire, but maybe future bikes will shoot lightning as in Akira. eggyolk fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Dec 30, 2009 |
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Dec 30, 2009 23:31
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You're the partially obscured dude in the sunglasses, right?
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Dec 30, 2009 23:56
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Phat_Albert posted:The real question here is you DONT enjoy the racket of a motorcycle? If not, you need to experience some gnarly 2-strokes, and flatslide carbs, and V-4's, and desmodromic valvetrains, things like that. Not really, no. I've spent my fair share of time around hopped up Kawasaki and Suzuki 2 strokes, Ducatis, and all manner of standard engine bikes. Sound is subjective and I happen to be of the opinion that bikes just don't sound that good. If you just flat out aren't interested in electric bike tech what-so-ever, that's one thing, but I think some of you are missing the point of this thread. This isn't about whether or not current electric bike tech is viable. This thread is about whether or not the entire idea of an electric bike is viable. No one would argue that electric bikes are viable for the masses currently, but they will get there and for some people are already there now. Once we have the battery technology for, say 500 miles on a charge, would you care then? What would it take for you to care about electric bikes?
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Dec 31, 2009 00:19
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frozenphil posted:Not really, no. I've spent my fair share of time around hopped up Kawasaki and Suzuki 2 strokes, Ducatis, and all manner of standard engine bikes. Sound is subjective and I happen to be of the opinion that bikes just don't sound that good. For someone with great taste in cars, you have terrible taste in motorcycles. I love internal combustion, especially on motorcycles, nothing an electric bike could ever do will make me as happy as slamming gears on a I/C bike.
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Dec 31, 2009 00:35
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frozenphil posted:Once we have the battery technology for, say 500 miles on a charge, would you care then? What would it take for you to care about electric bikes? I dont know, really. It would take something really amazing above and beyond internal combustion powered bikes to make me consider one. Are electric bikes in general a viable form of transportation? Yes, assuming that the infrastructure to swap your dead batteries for charged ones is in place. That also assumes standardization of batteries, and connections. Which assumes a battery technology advanced enough to make all this feasible. Lots of assumptions. 20 years in the future? Yeah, I can see it. I still dont think they will be as exciting as their gas burning counterparts, but if the infrastructure and technology is there, I dont see why they wont be viable and successful. However, dont discount what people like and dont like and how it dictates the motorcycle world. There have been more than a few attempts at automatic transmissions in bikes, and they have all pretty much been failures, as the motorcycle community in general has spoken, and said that they dont want them. Scooters are the only market where automatic transmissions are successful. The motorcycling community may just speak with their wallets and say no to electric bikes, relegating them to scooter use only or something similar.
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Dec 31, 2009 00:41
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frozenphil posted:I know that electric bikes don't have the soul and passion you guys are looking for, but do you honestly enjoy the racket motorcycles make? Yes, old man Phil, I enjoy the "racket" bikes make just like I enjoy the racket my car makes.
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Dec 31, 2009 01:47
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Phat_Albert posted:However, dont discount what people like and dont like and how it dictates the motorcycle world. There have been more than a few attempts at automatic transmissions in bikes, and they have all pretty much been failures, as the motorcycle community in general has spoken, and said that they dont want them. Scooters are the only market where automatic transmissions are successful. The motorcycling community may just speak with their wallets and say no to electric bikes, relegating them to scooter use only or something similar. That's the thing, though. The one speed transmission on an electric bike is there for a reason, it doesn't need a transmission. Automatic transmissions on an ICE motorcycle are failures because they take away control in a vehicle that requires the user to be in control for stability reasons. Citing a lack of gears on an electric bike as a con is like citing a lack of pistons in a rotary engine as a con. FuzzyWuzzyBear posted:Yes, old man Phil, I enjoy the "racket" bikes make just like I enjoy the racket my car makes. Don't get me wrong, I love the sound of a rumbly v8. There's nothing close to that in the motorcycle world. Bikes sound either like an ATV (Ducati), truck with no mufflers (Harley), or a fartcan equipped Honda (everything else). Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I mean, if people didn't like that fartcan sound out of their Civic there wouldn't be so many exhaust options out there for them.
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Dec 31, 2009 04:01
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I'm all for alternative propulsion, be it bike or car, but I want to be able to fill it up in ~5 minutes and get on with it like I can with a gasoline vehicle. And I want to be able to do it in the rear end end of nowhere. Cause what the gently caress am I gonna do with a bike that I can't refill in buttfuckistan, Russia?
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Dec 31, 2009 04:12
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redscare posted:I'm all for alternative propulsion, be it bike or car, but I want to be able to fill it up in ~5 minutes and get on with it like I can with a gasoline vehicle. And I want to be able to do it in the rear end end of nowhere. Cause what the gently caress am I gonna do with a bike that I can't refill in buttfuckistan, Russia? Ride it like 99.9% of the rest of motorcycle riders?
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Dec 31, 2009 04:31
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frozenphil posted:Ride it like 99.9% of the rest of motorcycle riders? Well that's a silly thing to suggest
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Dec 31, 2009 04:41
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redscare posted:I'm all for alternative propulsion, be it bike or car, but I want to be able to fill it up in ~5 minutes and get on with it like I can with a gasoline vehicle. And I want to be able to do it in the rear end end of nowhere. Cause what the gently caress am I gonna do with a bike that I can't refill in buttfuckistan, Russia? I think you answered your own question there champ.
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Dec 31, 2009 04:44
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frozenphil posted:Don't get me wrong, I love the sound of a rumbly v8. There's nothing close to that in the motorcycle world. 2009 Yamaha R1 with the crossplane crankshaft? I'm not enough of a car guy to know, but a bunch of people have said that they sound like V8s because of the firing order. All I can say is they sound like thunderous awesome when flat out on a track, a video of a stationary one unfortunately doesn't even come close http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN73zQ9hVaU FlyinDoc fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Dec 31, 2009 |
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Dec 31, 2009 05:48
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Funny that this shows up today as well http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2009/12/10-reasons-why-you-should-be-e.html
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Dec 31, 2009 06:44
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You want tie fighter? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8tkVSKb77Y No electric will ever sound like that. That hell for leather article is horrible for a variety of reasons, which I'm far too lazy to really break down now. But the vast majority of it is just retarded BS. frozenphil posted:That's the thing, though. The one speed transmission on an electric bike is there for a reason, it doesn't need a transmission. Automatic transmissions on an ICE motorcycle are failures because they take away control in a vehicle that requires the user to be in control for stability reasons. Citing a lack of gears on an electric bike as a con is like citing a lack of pistons in a rotary engine as a con. Actually, shifting gears is sort of a big part of the appeal of a motorcycle. It involves you in the operation of the bike, gives you another tool when it comes to how you manage power and engine braking to the ground. There's no backing it in on an electric bike... Finally, how do you track one of these motorcycles? I buy bikes for that alone, and know many other riders that no longer ride on the street. There is no practical, good, electric bike out there. The MotoCzyzc is unobtanium, just like all of his other bikes, and the only other option out there is the Killacycle, which is a drag bike. Cool, don't get me wrong, but not the tool I'm looking for. Hydrogen is loving horrible...your fuel disappears if you let it sit for any significant amount of time? Not to mention how resource intensive getting hydrogen is. Plus they're hideously expensive, their range sucks, they don't have anywhere near the versatility or the power of a modern bike, they require long fill ups, they don't have any sort hop ups or upgrade paths, blah blah blah. Here's my challenge to the electric motorcycle people: If electric engines are so amazing and the future, make one that performs as well as a normal motorcycle. That's it. Just make one that will outperform a normal, ICE bike, by a significant margin. Thus far, the only place it's happened that I'm aware of, is in really low displacement offroad racing (125ccs and under), because the batteries tech is good enough to make it last a race, and the instant power from zero RPM is a significant advantage over the high strung small displacement bikes. Hydrogen is a joke anyways...your fuel goes away if the tank sits, and it's incredibly resource intensive to harvest it. What's the appeal?
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Dec 31, 2009 08:47
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Electric motorcycles are good for ninja assassins. 
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Dec 31, 2009 10:23
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Z3n posted:Actually, shifting gears is sort of a big part of the appeal of a motorcycle. It involves you in the operation of the bike, gives you another tool when it comes to how you manage power and engine braking to the ground. There's no backing it in on an electric bike... But that rotary engine doesn't have pistons it's not a real engine! When you make infinite torque from 0 RPM you don't need a transmission to manage power. A bike that doesn't require you to shift gears to stay in the meat of its powerband, because its always in the meat of its powerband, frees you up to do things like control your brakes and steering input to a finer degree. Imagine a bike that puts the rear brake control on the handle bars. Now you can actually trail brake in a hard right hander. quote:Finally, how do you track one of these motorcycles? I buy bikes for that alone, and know many other riders that no longer ride on the street. There is no practical, good, electric bike out there. The MotoCzyzc is unobtanium, just like all of his other bikes, and the only other option out there is the Killacycle, which is a drag bike. Cool, don't get me wrong, but not the tool I'm looking for. You track an electric bike just like every other bike. I mean, what's different? You have to carry some spare batteries? Really, what's different? The power is already there with bikes that you can purchase (at a ridiculous price, yeah, the technology is still new) like the Mission One. Your entire argument boils down to something that I previously addressed, you don't like electric bikes because of the current state of the industry. What changes for you when electric bikes are widely available? What changes when electric bikes do perform on an equal playing field with ICE bikes? Does not worrying about your engine maintenance between laps appeal to you? Do you like the idea of being able to position the majority of the bike's weight in the chassis wherever you deem best so the suspension can work to its fullest? As I've said, don't debate the current state of the industry, look to the future and ask yourself, "what is the potential for these bikes"?. quote:Hydrogen is loving horrible...your fuel disappears if you let it sit for any significant amount of time? Not to mention how resource intensive getting hydrogen is. I bet someone used this same argument a hundred years ago when gasoline was in its infancy. It probably went something like this: "Wait, you want me to power my auto with explosions?! You mean to tell me that your petrol turns to unusable varnish after a few months in storage? Not to mention how resource intensive it is to extract it from the ground and refine it." "No, good sir, I'll stick with safe and affordable steam." quote:Plus they're hideously expensive, their range sucks, they don't have anywhere near the versatility or the power of a modern bike, they require long fill ups, they don't have any sort hop ups or upgrade paths, blah blah blah. Oh, so in order for electric bikes to be viable in your eyes they need to completely revolutionize the sport? Do you not think that sounds like a ridiculously high standard for viability? What's wrong with being competitive? What's wrong with allowing the racing industry to cast off the mantle of wasting resources and adding to pollution in the eyes of many people who aren't in to motorsports? What's wrong with using racing to further developments in electricity for automotive applications, the exact same thing that motorsports did and does for gasoline and ICE?
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Dec 31, 2009 16:11
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We get it dude, you have a giant boner for electric bikes, despite the technology being completely in its infancy and anything truly streetable, that is with a useful range, is still vaporware or unobtainium. You can't ignore all the arguments against electric bikes just by saying BUT LOOK AT THE FUTURE. If we all kept looking for the future, we'd still be expecting flyin DeLoreans to be around in 5 years.
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Dec 31, 2009 17:44
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redscare posted:We get it dude, you have a giant boner for electric bikes, despite the technology being completely in its infancy and anything truly streetable, that is with a useful range, is still vaporware or unobtainium. You can't ignore all the arguments against electric bikes just by saying BUT LOOK AT THE FUTURE. If we all kept looking for the future, we'd still be expecting flyin DeLoreans to be around in 5 years. Vaporware? You can buy one right now for under $8k that will take you 40 miles at 65mph. The arguments against electric bikes are against the current crop of electrics bikes and then extrapolated as if there will be no advancements. No one in this thread is saying "current electric bikes are crap". They are saying "all electric bikes are crap and I will never be interested in one" and I'd like to find out why. "I like shifting gears, even if I don't need to." "I like the sound of an ICE." The why, it seems, is something as dull as soul and passion no matter how much you protest otherwise unless a real argument is presented outside of those two things. Range and speed are real arguments against the current crop, but not against what we know the future holds.
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Dec 31, 2009 18:00
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What's all this homo talk about sounds? Function, not fashion. For shifting, well yes it's pretty fun but not integral, and I'm sure they can outfit electric bikes with some sort of shifter. As for all automatic bikes being failures, well you'd have to talk to the fjr1300 auto as well as the new VFR which is/can be auto. Also look at all the dirt guys going with recluse clutches. Oh and the scooter crowd would flock to them I'm sure. Other than that, electric bikes have a looooooooonnnnnnnnngggggggggggg way to go before I would consider owning one. They in no way even come close to comparing to a modern affordable motorcycle. To really be comparable, the price would have to be roughly the same as the ICE bikes they were competing against. They would need to have a 1000+ mile range, city or highway, before needing to charge. Also the charge time should be within 4-6 hours on a regular wall plug in. Lastly, they would need to be as light or lighter than whatever bike they were competing against, this probably holds more for the dirt bikes and sport bikes rather than cruisers. Until they have a lighter, long range, easy to charge, affordable, and has the same or more performance than my CBR600RR, they can get hosed. And I don't see any electric bike coming out like that any time soon.
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Dec 31, 2009 18:20
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Personally I'm holding out for a maturation of flying car technology.
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Dec 31, 2009 18:24
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Silver posted:Until they have a lighter, long range, easy to charge, affordable, and has the same or more performance than my CBR600RR, they can get hosed. And I don't see any electric bike coming out like that any time soon. Well, they hit most of those currently. The heaviest one I know of is 324lbs, they all charge in 4 hours from a standard wall outlet, and the affordable models are $8k and $9k currently. What we're waiting on is battery technology to improve enough to allow range and power. They can do power, but not range right now. With the amount of money going in to this field I don't see it being too awful long before we see a breakthrough in battery longevity. I'd bet that in 5 to 10 years we'll see 150mph and 500 mile capable machines. We're already past that speed barrier, we just need to get the distance.
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Dec 31, 2009 18:37
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I thought that speed barrier cost 65,000+ though. Yeah, maybe in 10 years I would look at an electric bike seriously, but I don't think anything will come out before 10 years that will scratch the modern day performance of a ICE bike.
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Dec 31, 2009 18:57
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frozenphil posted:But that rotary engine doesn't have pistons it's not a real engine! Uhh, you can still trail brake in a right hander with the standard motorcycle setup. If it were such a high priority to have the brake on the handlebars, you'd actually see people using them. The technology is there, it's easily available, but the only people who use thumb brakes are stunters. If this were a big concern, then it'd be the first mod that people do off the showroom floor. The complaints with standard setup are almost always limited to people who haven't had a lot of experience with riding. There are a handful of exceptions, but the vast majority of riders (easily 99.9%) are having zero problems with using the rear brake in any corner. In fact, removing the rear brake and telling people to just lean the fucker would probably save a lot of accidents. The point that I was making that you completely missed is this: Sometimes you don't want max power at zero RPM. I will intentionally shortshift a bike to keep it out of the power if I'm in a situation that demands more finesse. You don't want 90 foot pounds of torque at 35mph coming over the top of T5 at Thill or when you cross over a slick manhole cover. Go ride a CBR1000RR once you feel comfortable with it, and try and get it up to peak power and then ride it around as if that's normal. quote:You track an electric bike just like every other bike. I mean, what's different? You have to carry some spare batteries? Really, what's different? The power is already there with bikes that you can purchase (at a ridiculous price, yeah, the technology is still new) like the Mission One. Track riding is going to destroy battery life. You are essentially either wide open or braking...I believe the Tesla lasted something absurd like 15 miles on the track, and that's with regenerative braking and way more batteries than any motorcycle will ever carry. What happens when you're racing for a weekend or at an open trackday, or you want to ride your bike to and from the track? It's just not going to happen. If you figure a 50% reduction in range due to track riding, I'd need 5 battery packs to make it through one day. At the moment, our electric infrastructure is incapable of holding up to thousands of people plugging in batteries to charge every night, much less people charging multiple battery packs at once. Hell, I'd have to run 5 generators just to power the charging of those 5 battery packs for hours. There'd be something ironic about using gas engines to charge batteries...not to mention the overall inefficiency of it. quote:Your entire argument boils down to something that I previously addressed, you don't like electric bikes because of the current state of the industry. Yes, because the current state of the industry controls what I can and cannot buy. Of course I'm not happy with electrics, they offer absolutely nothing good. If they did offer something good, I'd probably own one. But they don't, and they won't, and it's going to be a decade or more, barring some amazing breakthrough in battery tech, that allows them to become even remotely comparable to ICE bikes. quote:What changes for you when electric bikes are widely available? What changes when electric bikes do perform on an equal playing field with ICE bikes? Does not worrying about your engine maintenance between laps appeal to you? Do you like the idea of being able to position the majority of the bike's weight in the chassis wherever you deem best so the suspension can work to its fullest? You act like electric motors are somehow immune to burning out or failing. You act like it's a superior solution to what we already have, and in most ways, it's simply not. At the moment, I could, on a bicycle, pick a direction and start riding. At the end of the day, I could probably go roughly 100 miles. All of the electric bikes out there would make it that same 40-50 miles, and then stop, and require a 8-12 hour charging cycle before they could go again. That's hilariously pathetic. I can outpace an electric motorcycle on a bicycle. quote:As I've said, don't debate the current state of the industry, look to the future and ask yourself, "what is the potential for these bikes"?. And thus far, the future is bleak. Barring amazing advances in battery tech, electric bikes are going to be heavy, with limited range, and a drat near unusable amount of power when you get to a significantly sized engine. They purposely gear literbikes way high to avoid newbies killing themselves, and they're already insane and more than capable when first gear ends at 105mph. If you gave someone 180hp at zero RPM, you would have a motorcycle capable of backflipping with 20% throttle. quote:I bet someone used this same argument a hundred years ago when gasoline was in its infancy. It probably went something like this: The problem with hydrogen is simple: You are talking about building an entire infrastructure that's going to require new filling stations, new transportation setups, new car tanks, and new engines. Or you have a dozen alternatives that require no change and could piggyback off of existing tech and infrastructure. And we extract oil from the ground for other purposes as well...there's no other purpose in making hydrogen, unless you count the explosive balloon market. quote:Oh, so in order for electric bikes to be viable in your eyes they need to completely revolutionize the sport? Do you not think that sounds like a ridiculously high standard for viability? No, I just want them to compete on even ground. You can whine about unreasonable standards, but if I'm going to buy x over y, it better have a selling point, and "better for the environment" isn't one that lists high on my radar, because me buying and repairing used bikes is far better for the environment than making a new one every time I want a new toy. quote:What's wrong with being competitive? What's wrong with allowing the racing industry to cast off the mantle of wasting resources and adding to pollution in the eyes of many people who aren't in to motorsports? What's wrong with using racing to further developments in electricity for automotive applications, the exact same thing that motorsports did and does for gasoline and ICE? Who's racing with electric engines? No one, because they're loving poo poo for racing. I'd love to see an electric class, but it's not going to happen, because you'd need enough batteries to sink the titanic in order to power a grid of 30 bikes for one race weekend. Electric bikes may be the future, they may not. But we need technological advance, and they had drat well better be equal to normal motorcycles before anyone but those who fap to zero emissions consider buying them. For normal people, a clapped out 500$ scooter will do better, go farther, be faster, and just be superior in every aspect. And it's got the brake on the handlebar. Z3n fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Dec 31, 2009 |
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Dec 31, 2009 19:15
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I'd like a bike that goes 50 feet before needing to stop for a decade to recharge and sounds like a power drill. What do you have in the $50-100k range?
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Dec 31, 2009 19:24
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Electric harleys make me smile.
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Dec 31, 2009 19:26
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frozenphil posted:That's the thing, though. The one speed transmission on an electric bike is there for a reason, it doesn't need a transmission. Automatic transmissions on an ICE motorcycle are failures because they take away control in a vehicle that requires the user to be in control for stability reasons. Citing a lack of gears on an electric bike as a con is like citing a lack of pistons in a rotary engine as a con. Thats not what I meant. I meant that the market rejected automatic transmissions on bikes because not enough people wanted them to warrant the cost of making them. That may or may not be the case with electric bikes in general, not their transmissions (or lack thereof). frozenphil posted:The arguments against electric bikes are against the current crop of electrics bikes and then extrapolated as if there will be no advancements. No one in this thread is saying "current electric bikes are crap". They are saying "all electric bikes are crap and I will never be interested in one" and I'd like to find out why. Dull is in the eye of the beholder, obviously. Are you honestly surprised that people arent interested in bikes that they consider dull? If future bikes hold no improvement in excitement, and only in range, are you surprised that people still arent enthused about them? Really, what it boils down to is that 99% of people own and ride bikes for fun. In the US, it is extremely rare to see someone who really relies on only a bike for their transportation. So, that being said, what you're saying, in car terms is "Hey, I know you love your Ferraris, and your muscle cars, and Lotuses and whatnot, but here is a prius with the gas engine removed. Its lightweight, and the suspension is upgraded so it handles great, why arent you guys excited?". How are you not understanding this? Then you go on to say that in the future, the prius will go as far as the other cars can go. Not exactly a recipe for excitement either. You want a real answer? I dont like electric bikes because everything is a tradeoff with them. You give up the beauty of the IC engine. Granted, some people dont care about that. So lets move on. You want more power out of your electric bike? Thats easy, new electronics and a different motor. Oops, now your range is down to 10 miles. Granted, an IC engine has trade offs for power as well, and their gas mileage suffers from it too, but the effect isnt nearly as great until you start making insane amounts of power. I'll give a real world example. I've massaged my Bandit from 100hp to 120hp, and the mileage hasnt budged any noticeable amount. Thats a significant percentage of power gained with almost no tradeoff. Sure, the argument can be made that it wasnt running efficiently at 100hp then, and that may be the case, but there isnt that gray area with electric motors. They run how they run for the most part, and getting more power out of them requires either more batteries (more weight, negating the power), or lesser range with the existing batteries. Its all physics, and there is no free lunch for anyone, obviously, but hinging the success of electric bikes on battery tech that has been SERIOUSLY JUST AROUND THE CORNER NOW ANY DAY NOW GUYS for the last 20 years doesnt cut it. Its a case of flying cars and living on the moon, and all that other tech that was "just around the corner" and would be here any minute now. It never panned out. Yeah, we have batteries now, and yeah, we're making advances, but to really make something great, to really make a bike that can run with the best of them takes batteries that you yourself admit arent here yet, and are of course just around the corner, just like they were 10 years ago. The onus is on you to prove why we should be excited about electric bikes, not the other way around. It should be patently obvious why people arent excited about them. They suck now, and until that magical battery tech shows up, they will continue to suck. Thats why Im not excited. In a nutshell 
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Dec 31, 2009 20:01
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frozenphil posted:Vaporware? You can buy one right now for under $8k that will take you 40 miles at 65mph. No, we don't know what the future holds. Wow 40 miles at 65 mph for $8k. Let's see, that means I can use it for commuting and nothing else. How useful. I wouldn't even be able to make to the nearest good riding road and back on 40 miles of charge (never mind actually riding said road). So yeah, its vaporware unless you're rich as hell and like blowing fat sacks of cash on expensive paperweights. Once they make an electric bike that some nutter can take RTW with the same ease as he could say, a KLR or a 60s chopper, then we'll talk. Oh and one thing nobody's brought up is weight. Batteries are loving heavy.
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Dec 31, 2009 20:37
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Z3n posted:Uhh, you can still trail brake in a right hander with the standard motorcycle setup. As much as I hate to argue against you because you're always here and a drat good resource, you're starting to sound like an old man. Just because motorcycles have had the rear brake on the right foot for a while now doesn't make it the ideal solution, I'd have to argue that you have more control with regards to breaking on a mountain bike than you do on a motorbike. Ok, sure, I've only been riding for a couple of months now but breaking with your foot is a loving pain in the arse, I don't know but maybe you enjoy hyper extension. I was riding my mountain bike the other day (on city roads, at a decent speed) I could manage my braking a shitload better with two fingers on the brake than I could ever do on my GS500.
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Dec 31, 2009 23:06
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Aargh posted:Ok, sure, I've only been riding for a couple of months now but breaking with your foot is a loving pain in the arse, I don't know but maybe you enjoy hyper extension. Maybe your brake pedal needs to be adjusted or something? I'm not just being an rear end, I'm being serious. I've never had a problem or pain from using a brake pedal on a bike, and neither has anyone else I know.
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Dec 31, 2009 23:08
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Raven457 posted:Maybe your brake pedal needs to be adjusted or something? I'm not just being an rear end, I'm being serious. I've never had a problem or pain from using a brake pedal on a bike, and neither has anyone else I know. Ok maybe I was being a little over the top with hyper-extension but it's not the most comfortable of moves.
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Dec 31, 2009 23:12
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