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iceaim
May 20, 2001



Are there any Russian goons here that are familiar with the cost of living in Novosibirsk, Russia? I have a programmer there that does programming work for me and he's made some rather dubious claims about his living expenses. He claims that he can't survive of $2,000 a month in Novosibirsk, Russia and that $3,000 a month is "barely" enough to survive there. My system administrator is not buying it at all and is Russian-Ukrainian and has family in Russia.

Considering the fact that Novosibirsk is in Siberia I just can't imagine that the costs of living are as high as he claims. He's always loving complaining that he has no money in the beginning of the month and frankly it's starting to irritate the gently caress out of me and I'm going to confront him about his bullshit, but I need total confirmation that he is yanking my chain.

My admin says he's full of poo poo, but I need some confirmation from the goons.

For the record, I live in Hong Kong which has some of the most expensive property in the world and you can live decently off $2,000 a month if you're frugal. Although property is expensive, a lot of other stuff is more reasonably priced.

Edit: On top of working for me, his wife also works for an employer in Russia.

iceaim fucked around with this message at Feb 12, 2010 around 12:14

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NewTennMom
Jun 15, 2006
Quidam, I am.

A quick google search shows that he is probably full of poo poo. I found several sites that say it is the same, if not cheaper then the UK/Europe/Etc.

One site said average rent is about 500 US dollars for a nice flat.

iceaim
May 20, 2001



NewTennMom posted:

A quick google search shows that he is probably full of poo poo. I found several sites that say it is the same, if not cheaper then the UK/Europe/Etc.

The same (or less) as UK/Europe? From what I understand the UK (and Western Europe) is quite expensive, so this isn't exactly telling me much.

LogisticEarth
Mar 28, 2004

Someone once told me, "Time is a flat circle".


Well, $2,000 a month is $24k a year. Is there any kind of income tax or whatever over there? If they're paying $500 a month in rent for a decent two bedroom, $24k is probably alright, but combined with other expenses it probably doesn't leave a whole lot left over. He's probably not trying to jerk you around too much, just feels like he should be getting paid more for what he does. If he's asking for a 50% raise though (2k to 3k a month) that's just insane.

I'm not from Russia by the way, just extrapolating.

Soviet Stranger
May 5, 2008
LENIN PREDICTED THIS POST ->

iceaim posted:

The same (or less) as UK/Europe? From what I understand the UK (and Western Europe) is quite expensive, so this isn't exactly telling me much.

$2000 is about 1200 (pre tax). That is enough for an average flat in a good location (one bedroom in or around city centre) with bills (including luxuries like internet, tv licensee and mobile) as well as 50 to 100 or so a week for food and socialising.

Basically you wouldn't be able to save or buy tons of luxury items. But overall you could live a normal lifestyle, eat alright and go out on the weekends.

Not sure if that helps.

p.s. this website acts as if a lot of amenities are very cheap in Russia so unless food and property prices are mental he has mucked something up finance wise.

Soviet Stranger fucked around with this message at Feb 12, 2010 around 13:39

rookieone
May 25, 2004

Now I've got an avatar that is at least as cute as me :)

keep in mind that this is Siberia so all the food has to be brought there or grown locally in greenhouses (which need energy). It's very likely that the cost of living is through the roof, especially if you also factor in heating (long & hard winters).

What I would do in your situation is to ask him to provide you with a cost breakdown of his daily life to be better able to assess the situation. Obviously he could cheat but then again, if you don't trust him with this then I don't know how you could trust him with programming properly and not trying to sneak some lovely and/or downright dangerous code into whatever he's programming for you.

johnny sack
Jan 30, 2004

One day, this team will play to their expectations...

Just not this year..


Why is it that you want to pay this guy just barely enough to get by?

If you don't believe him, why don't you sever and use someone else? Surely there must be someone else in the entire world who could do that programming for you, at the price you're willing to pay.

If not, then it looks like you simply have to pay the man what he's asking.

l33t Lurker
Aug 31, 2001


rookieone posted:

keep in mind that this is Siberia so all the food has to be brought there or grown locally in greenhouses (which need energy). It's very likely that the cost of living is through the roof, especially if you also factor in heating (long & hard winters).


Yeah, property and rent are obviously really cheap in northern Canada, the government even gives you a tiny stipend because nobody wants to live there. Everything else costs 2-3 times as much though, a bottle of coke tends to cost several dollars because it's had to be airlifted in.

tuyop
Sep 14, 2006

Every second that we're not growing BASIL is a second wasted


l33t Lurker posted:

Yeah, property and rent are obviously really cheap in northern Canada, the government even gives you a tiny stipend because nobody wants to live there. Everything else costs 2-3 times as much though, a bottle of coke tends to cost several dollars because it's had to be airlifted in.

Yeah a friend of mine said that a loaf of bread could go up to six dollars right before shipments came in, and a banana was eight.

Caribou meat was really really cheap though.

Johnny Sack and rookieone are right though, listen to them.

Mill Town
Apr 17, 2006



Soviet Stranger posted:

$2000 is about 1200 (pre tax). That is enough for an average flat in a good location (one bedroom in or around city centre) with bills (including luxuries like internet, tv licensee and mobile) as well as 50 to 100 or so a week for food and socialising.

Basically you wouldn't be able to save or buy tons of luxury items. But overall you could live a normal lifestyle, eat alright and go out on the weekends.

Not sure if that helps.

p.s. this website acts as if a lot of amenities are very cheap in Russia so unless food and property prices are mental he has mucked something up finance wise.

Sure, but that's just barely a living wage in the UK. If the cost of living is similarly high in Novosibirsk, I'd be pretty pissed off if I was a programmer making the same as Aleksei down at the grocery store. I think you need an opinion from someone in the same general area so you can tell if it's comparable or not.

rt4
Feb 19, 2008


You could just pay the programmer what his work is worth, you cheap piece of poo poo.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Soviet Stranger
May 5, 2008
LENIN PREDICTED THIS POST ->

rt4 posted:

You could just pay the programmer what his work is worth, you cheap piece of poo poo.
True say. If he is doing enough to deserve more the $2000 it doesn't really matter about his living expenses.

Mill Town posted:

Sure, but that's just barely a living wage in the UK. If the cost of living is similarly high in Novosibirsk, I'd be pretty pissed off if I was a programmer making the same as Aleksei down at the grocery store. I think you need an opinion from someone in the same general area so you can tell if it's comparable or not.
My comparison was just to say that his wage is liveable. Though it certainly isn't a wage you would expect for being a skilled worker.

Soviet Stranger fucked around with this message at Feb 12, 2010 around 22:58

Jasper Tin Neck
Nov 13, 2008


"Scientifically proven, rich and creamy."



Here you go, I googled it for you: http://www.wdi.umich.edu/files/Publ...apers/wp949.pdf

TL,DR: Novosibirsk is a fairly average Russian region, so looking at price indices, it seems cheap as dirt. This is because the goods basket the Russian government uses to measure the cost of living is barely sufficient for subsistence. They do this because it allows them to define the poverty line very low, ergo, tell others there are fewer poor in Russia. In reality, prices are much closer to western levels.

iceaim
May 20, 2001



rt4 posted:

You could just pay the programmer what his work is worth, you cheap piece of poo poo.

How about you stop shooting your mouth off about something you know nothing about?

Many Russians aren't paid by their employers for months, and I'm paying him a regular wage. So please just shut the gently caress up you basement dwelling mouth breathing idiot.

Also he CAME TO ME with that proposed salary because he was unemployed for months. However I already started reading the William Davidson report and it's very eye opening, so I will make adjustments.

Edit: Holy gently caress, Russia is a loving poo poo hole! I was always under the totally false impression that you can live like a king on $1500 a month like you can in China.

God the living conditions are absolutely horrible, especially when directly compared to China which I have a lot of experience with since I live close by.

How are Russians even able to survive on $500 a month wages without starving to death? This is loving crazy.

Why do so many Russians love Putin so much when he's doing such a lovely job compared with Chinese leaders?

iceaim fucked around with this message at Feb 13, 2010 around 00:40

LuckySevens
Feb 16, 2004

fear not failure, fear only the limitations of our dreams


Because Putin was better than the last guy.

XakEp
Dec 20, 2002
Amor est vitae essentia

iceaim posted:

How about you stop shooting your mouth off about something you know nothing about?

Many Russians aren't paid by their employers for months, and I'm paying him a regular wage. So please just shut the gently caress up you basement dwelling mouth breathing idiot.

Also he CAME TO ME with that proposed salary because he was unemployed for months. However I already started reading the William Davidson report and it's very eye opening, so I will make adjustments.

Edit: Holy gently caress, Russia is a loving poo poo hole! I was always under the totally false impression that you can live like a king on $1500 a month like you can in China.

God the living conditions are absolutely horrible, especially when directly compared to China which I have a lot of experience with since I live close by.

How are Russians even able to survive on $500 a month wages without starving to death? This is loving crazy.

Why do so many Russians love Putin so much when he's doing such a lovely job compared with Chinese leaders?

Moscow is one of the most expensive cities in the world if you want a decent standard of living. How about you pay him a living wage instead of enough to just survive on?

Ender.uNF
Sep 28, 2001
Lowtax giveth, and Lowtax taketh away.

FYI: I'm a programmer in the US and my company employes >10,000 programmers around the globe; We've used russian, ukrainian, and indian programmers for our projects before, the company still has many on staff, though not on my product directly.

Ten years ago our company could get 3 indians or 4 russians for the price of 1 US programmer; today that is 1.5 Indians for 1 US programmer. But globally the demand for good software developers is increasing faster than the supply, so there just aren't enough people regardless of what country they live in. Salary doesn't even really factor into the decision, we pay above-market rates in all countries.


If the guy is really good at what he does then I'd pay him what he wants; maybe you can get two dudes who know a little bit of php for the cost of his salary but a good developer is 10-20x more productive than a mediocre programmer.

No one believes they can hire two or three home builders to design and build the world's tallest skyscraper, even though both are construction jobs, but for some reason they pretend that programmers are interchangeable.

Ender.uNF fucked around with this message at Feb 13, 2010 around 04:41

libberlibber
Apr 14, 2004

by Y Kant Ozma Post


How about you answer the question instead of guessing the situation and then preaching your thoughts about it.


I had a friend who went to somefuckingplace in sibera for study abroad. The local food is very cheap, he said he ate for ~$5 a day as much turnip or whatever as he wanted. Most food had to be imported though so if you ate outside a narrow band of stuff it cost a decent amount. He said he paid $10 for a pineapple once.

XakEp
Dec 20, 2002
Amor est vitae essentia

libberlibber posted:

How about you answer the question instead of guessing the situation and then preaching your thoughts about it.

I lived in Russia for a few years and have many friends who were there, as well as family. I'm no expert, but if you want to live a decent lifestyle without going nuts, what the programmer is asking for is not out of line. I'd pay him a little more if he's a good developer and you can trust him.

LogisticEarth
Mar 28, 2004

Someone once told me, "Time is a flat circle".


XakEp posted:

Moscow is one of the most expensive cities in the world if you want a decent standard of living. How about you pay him a living wage instead of enough to just survive on?

Isn't the definition of a living wage "just enough to survive on"?

wikipedia posted:

Living wage is a term used to describe the minimum hourly wage necessary for shelter (housing and incidentals such as clothing and other basic needs) and nutrition for a person for an extended period of time.

Anyway, 24k a year is a living wage in many major cities in the US, I have to imagine it is in Novosibirsk too. It's not going to buy you many luxuries, and won't allow you to save much, but it'll get you the bare minimums. Is that wage the market rate for a programmer similar to the one the OP is having issues with? I have no idea.

XakEp
Dec 20, 2002
Amor est vitae essentia

LogisticEarth posted:

Isn't the definition of a living wage "just enough to survive on"?


Anyway, 24k a year is a living wage in many major cities in the US, I have to imagine it is in Novosibirsk too. It's not going to buy you many luxuries, and won't allow you to save much, but it'll get you the bare minimums. Is that wage the market rate for a programmer similar to the one the OP is having issues with? I have no idea.

Oops - I mean enough to support a middle class lifestyle rather than barely getting by. Long day.

Magnificent Quiver
May 8, 2003



iceaim posted:

How about you stop shooting your mouth off about something you know nothing about?

Many Russians aren't paid by their employers for months, and I'm paying him a regular wage. So please just shut the gently caress up you basement dwelling mouth breathing idiot.

Also he CAME TO ME with that proposed salary because he was unemployed for months.

Yeah a homeless guy came to me asking to work for some food, so I had him pull weeds for 8 hours and threw him a crust of bread.

Really now, you may have your reasons, but a lot of people are uncomfortable with the idea of paying a Russian or Indian 4x less than an American programmer just because you can get away with it.

The Capitulator
Oct 31, 2008


I don't know about Novosibirsk but in south western Russia in one of the Top 10 cities, your average 20-something with a university degree starts out at just over 500 US dollars a month and you can basically live off that without starving/freezing to death. Anything above 1000 US is considered a good middle class salary. But, IMO that's beside the point - if you think he's worth it, pay him what he wants and if you don't, then don't because that's how it typically works.

trashcanman
May 17, 2006
honkey

I think you should cut his salary to $1500/mo.

That'll teach that fuckin' Commie who's he's messin' with.

Moruitelda
Aug 7, 2005

I'll shut you up with my cock, you son of a bitch!

XakEp posted:

Moscow is one of the most expensive cities in the world if you want a decent standard of living. How about you pay him a living wage instead of enough to just survive on?

He's not talking about Moscow. He's talking about a city that's almost 2,000 miles away from Moscow.

The guy's asking for a cost of living raise, and doesn't need it if the cost of living is much lower than that. There's a lot of goon-rage in here from people who don't seem to have any information whatsoever on the cost of living in Novosibirsk. However, The Capitulator seems to know what he's talking about, and indicates that, in similar cities on the other side of the Urals, he's already getting paid twice as much as your average "good middle class salary."

Sgs-Cruz
Apr 19, 2003

You just got BURNED!

Wow, class warfare up in this here thread.

Without going totally RAH CAPITALISM RULES, if an employer starts paying his employees way more than what the other employers do, he's going to have to charge more for his products and he's going to go out of business. It doesn't sound like this guy's trying to take advantage of his employees, especially if he's paying what sounds like a competitive wage for the area. It's not so unbelievable that the programmer is trying to take advantage of an absentee boss, either.

permabanned
Aug 12, 2008

優しい野菜


It's a decent wage, he probably can scrape by with $1000 per month, but no less.
People who earn $500 are not living, they are slowly dying, sorry.
The cost of living in my hometown (population of about 60k people) in Russia is higher than in France, Paris, where I live now.
It wouldn't require a big stretch of imagination to say that in similar climate a bigger city, like Novosibirsk, would be more expensive.

permabanned fucked around with this message at Feb 13, 2010 around 16:49

Huge Lady Pleaser
Jun 17, 2005

hello how r u doing im just looking for ppl 2 chill wit relax go out n have funn if ur looking for da same thing hit me up


Moruitelda posted:

He's not talking about Moscow. He's talking about a city that's almost 2,000 miles away from Moscow.

The guy's asking for a cost of living raise, and doesn't need it if the cost of living is much lower than that. There's a lot of goon-rage in here from people who don't seem to have any information whatsoever on the cost of living in Novosibirsk. However, The Capitulator seems to know what he's talking about, and indicates that, in similar cities on the other side of the Urals, he's already getting paid twice as much as your average "good middle class salary."

Read the "Ask me about living in Russia" thread. A good russian middle-class salary is poo poo.

Vladimir Putin
Mar 17, 2007
Pardon me sir, would you like to have some Polonium ?

Go ahead with your capitalist exploitation of global economics. I applaud you.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

jannik
Oct 15, 2004

The Biggest Anime

Check the first page in this thread: http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...40&pagenumber=1

The guy lives outside Moscow and works as a programmer and is very happy with his 2k/month salary.

johnny sack
Jan 30, 2004

One day, this team will play to their expectations...

Just not this year..


Op you still haven't answered about whether he is worth the pay increase or not.

The Capitulator
Oct 31, 2008


permabanned posted:

It's a decent wage, he probably can scrape by with $1000 per month, but no less.
People who earn $500 are not living, they are slowly dying, sorry.
The cost of living in my hometown (population of about 60k people) in Russia is higher than in France, Paris, where I live now.
It wouldn't require a big stretch of imagination to say that in similar climate a bigger city, like Novosibirsk, would be more expensive.

I've been quoted this figure by two people - a friend of mine who worked in a bank in an assistant manager role and actually earned just over 500 US in that role and another friend who heads the marketing department of a decent size airline in the southern region and was hiring a junior exec with that budget. Both roles were for a male in mid-20s with a university degree and minimal work experience. Yeah it's loving poo poo if you're married with kids and sick parents but if you're single and still live with the family, it's doable.

pigdog
Apr 23, 2004


The programmer is somewhat exaggerating as it's certainly possible to get by with that salary, eg if he sticked with public transport and lived a college student lifestyle. However, heating, housing (of comparable quality) and cars wouldn't be terribly cheaper there. If he's an experienced programmer, he'd probably have options. It comes down to whether he's good at what he's doing.

iceaim
May 20, 2001



johnny sack posted:

Op you still haven't answered about whether he is worth the pay increase or not.

Well that's a very good question. On one hand he is a good programmer that writes good code. He also has a Masters degree in Mathematics. On the other hand his biggest weakness is he types super slow. He types so much slower on skype than I or my other coders do. This reflects in his work too because it takes him 3 times longer to finish a job than my other younger guys. He also clearly has had problems finding an employer until he met up with me.

I think I will give him a raise though, but I havent decided on the amount.

Also all the dumb as gently caress goons raging over me under paying and saying I should feel "uncomfortable" paying him less than American wages. You guys are loving idiots with zero business experience. Shut the gently caress up, you are making GBS threads up the thread with your inane opinions. Don't you idiots realize he is better off now than being loving unemployed? I will adjust his salary, but leave your stupid idealism at the door and grow the gently caress up.

Edit: Fixed some types since I am out and wrote this on my Touch Pro

iceaim fucked around with this message at Feb 14, 2010 around 10:56

Oodles of Wootles
Nov 8, 2008

safe

Seriously you stupid assholes he should be grateful to have a crappy paying job with his master's degree and quality work. HE TYPES SLOW

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

a slime
Apr 11, 2005



iceaim posted:

Don't you idiots realize he is better off now than being loving unemployed?

Defenders of sweatshop labor use the same words, but I don't have any business experience so I guess I'm not qualified to comment on exploitation

iceaim
May 20, 2001



Oodles of Wootles posted:

Seriously you stupid assholes he should be grateful to have a crappy paying job with his master's degree and quality work. HE TYPES SLOW

You're an idiot who has oatmeal for brains. Shut the gently caress up.

not a dinosaur posted:

Defenders of sweatshop labor use the same words, but I don't have any business experience so I guess I'm not qualified to comment on exploitation

Yeah my programmer's really exploited. He's paid more than what is considered a middle class wage in Russia and he gets the luxury of working from home, saving him commuting costs. Yes he's horribly exploited.

Besides I already SAID I am going to give him a raise. What the gently caress do you want from me? Close up my business and be middle management for some large faceless corporation?

Get the gently caress out of my thread.

iceaim fucked around with this message at Feb 14, 2010 around 16:53

Vladimir Putin
Mar 17, 2007
Pardon me sir, would you like to have some Polonium ?

iceaim posted:

Well that's a very good question. On one hand he is a good programmer that writes good code. He also has a Masters degree in Mathematics. On the other hand his biggest weakness is he types super slow. He types so much slower on skype than I or my other coders do. This reflects in his work too because it takes him 3 times longer to finish a job than my other younger guys. He also clearly has had problems finding an employer until he met up with me.

I think I will give him a raise though, but I havent decided on the amount.

Also all the dumb as gently caress goons raging over me under paying and saying I should feel "uncomfortable" paying him less than American wages. You guys are loving idiots with zero business experience. Shut the gently caress up, you are making GBS threads up the thread with your inane opinions. Don't you idiots realize he is better off now than being loving unemployed? I will adjust his salary, but leave your stupid idealism at the door and grow the gently caress up.

Edit: Fixed some types since I am out and wrote this on my Touch Pro

Well you are in a long tradition of capitalists exploiting their workers. Exploit a little extra for me because I can't do it. In fact I feel like I am getting exploited most of the time. Hit a little harder just for me!

iceaim
May 20, 2001



Vladimir Putin posted:

Well you are in a long tradition of capitalists exploiting their workers. Exploit a little extra for me because I can't do it. In fact I feel like I am getting exploited most of the time. Hit a little harder just for me!

Do you have anything new to add or are you going to spout the same recycled horseshit that all of your other out of touch friends from LF are spouting?

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Vladimir Putin
Mar 17, 2007
Pardon me sir, would you like to have some Polonium ?

iceaim posted:

Do you have anything new to add or are you going to spout the same recycled horseshit that all of your other out of touch friends from LF are spouting?

I'm not posting with irony. I'm glad I know somebody who is benefitting from this global exploitation.

Edit: Not posting in sarcasm or irony. Posting in cynicism.


Edit2: It's not recycled bullshit. I've seen a lot of my co-workers and friends jobs outsourced oversees or their benefits cut or whatever. It's the same old game that's been played since the industrial era. It's not out of touch at all.

Vladimir Putin fucked around with this message at Feb 14, 2010 around 17:01

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