|
Digital comic books, seem to be getting more attention these past few years and since we don't have thread about it here at BSS i decided to open one up. Here we can discuss our thoughts on the subject of: Which seems to be the more fitting device to read. What comics are available in the format and what we would like to see. So.. a quick rundown of the devices we have available to read them in. Our regular old PC/MAC: This seems to be the more readily available device, screen real estate is m+often more than sufficient, but, unless you put our screen on the side 16/9 does not seem a perfect fit for comics. It also lacks portability even when your talking about a laptop. I use and it does the trick, but it is not perfect. The PSP/PSP GO: This is a recent offering you can get comics out of the PSN store and read it in your portable device. can't give much info on this since i haven´t tried it out myself, since i ended up giving my PSP to my sister after it sat on a corner for a few years. The IPHONE/IPOD TOUCH: This seems to be the biggest newcomer. Touch screen controls are perfect for reading and the content delivery system is top notch, on the other hand screen size is inappropriate. Comics that have been converted specifically for the platform work great (Atomic Robo and Hellboy are two examples of this. They have a specific panel-by-panel layout that makes reading quite enjoyable) regular comics where you have a full page and have to zoom in and out suck a bit... The IPAD: This is the device where i put my hope. The screen is only slightly smaller than a regular comic and it as all the features of an IPHONE/TOUCH. More on this when it comes out. (no flash support probably means that marvel digital comics are out) As for the content providers that i can remember at the moment: Marvel Digital comics: The selection is big and varied,but, it is subscription based and internet based, that is to say you can one view it on-line and there comic reader isn't all that great. Still if you want to read the entire x-men back catalog it seems a good offer. Comixology: it´s an IPHONE/IPOD app that let´s you buy comics on-line and read on your device of choice. Marvel Comics, Red 5, Top Cow and Image are only a few of the publishers they have signed which gives it a really nice selection. This may be the big player when the IPAD hits. Iverse: iVerse Media, LLC is a digital distributor of comic books for mobile platforms. Established in 2008, iVerse has quickly emerged as an innovator and leader in the mobile publishing field. Partnerships with high profile brands like Archie Comics, and leading industry publishers like IDW Publishing (”Star Trek”), BOOM! Studios (”Farscape”), Ardden Entertainment (”Flash Gordon”), Red 5 Comics (”Atomic Robo”), Ape Entertainment (”Super Human Resources”), and many more have made it possible for iVerse to surpass one million downloads in under 9 months of releasing content into the iPhone App Store. (from the Iverse website) Panelfly: Integrates an on-line store and social networking features on their app. They also have a ton of indie comics plus Marvel. OK. this is about it. Any additions will be welcome, especially about DC's digital comics presence that i know nothing about. Your toughs on the medium. Possible impact on LCBS's. Will you be getting on board with this. What have been your experiences so far are all welcome topics.
|
| # ? Feb 24, 2010 09:59 |
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2013 17:23 |
|
|
You can actually get comic books on the Kindle as well but...it sucks. I looked at the version of Black Hole by Charles Burns they had on there and there is absolutely no effort to make it fit the screen or have the text be a size that is readable. The thing is really good at black and white because the digital ink thing provides some very nice contrast and it kind of feels like reading it on newsprint. With a little tweaking I'm sure that the Showcase books or whatever Marvel's line is called (the name escapes me at the moment) would be neat but as it stands give it a pass.
|
| # ? Feb 24, 2010 11:58 |
|
|
just_a_guy posted:The IPAD: This is the device where i put my hope. The screen is only slightly smaller than a regular comic and it as all the features of an IPHONE/TOUCH. More on this when it comes out. (no flash support probably means that marvel digital comics are out) My hope is on the iPad. I really want one and I'm going to use it to read comics one way or another. So far, the offerings announced seem fairly crappy. My hope is that Marvel and DC will start selling monthlies on the iBookstore (99 cents please) and then TPBs/HCs will be the only physical copies. I like my floppies but they take up way too much space and the OCD in me won't allow myself to toss them. I have a good number of valuable HCs but I really want to be all digital. This will probably cause most LCBS to go out of business in the long run, but that's just evolution. I imagine there will be needs for speciality shops still but floppies won't be part of those sales.
|
| # ? Feb 24, 2010 12:37 |
|
|
There's also Graphic.ly as a provider, currently in beta. Graphic.ly bought out iFanboy recently, too. Longbox is rumored to be coming out sometime this century, too.
|
| # ? Feb 24, 2010 13:28 |
|
|
Neep posted:My hope is on the iPad. I really want one and I'm going to use it to read comics one way or another. So far, the offerings announced seem fairly crappy. I like Marvel's online service, but as a compliment to hard copies. It's a way to read things I may not have managed to find in trade or back issues or try new things that I may not want to spend the money on, but am intrigued by. I have never understood the viewpoint that ebooks are preferable to an actual physical book or magazine. What if you're on a bus? What if the power goes out? And reading a comic in bed is a very different experience than having to sit at my desk and do so. I'm an odd one, though, and know it. I'm the kind of guy that leaps on blu-ray but can't stand the iPhone. I love Steam but I prefer bricks & mortar shopping to Amazon. I do think digital is a method of delivery the Big Two (and the larger second tier companies) need to embrace, but I'll be very sad if they follow the music industry's lead and shift weekly sales totally in that direction.
|
| # ? Feb 24, 2010 14:22 |
|
|
Neep posted:My hope is on the iPad. I really want one and I'm going to use it to read comics one way or another. So far, the offerings announced seem fairly crappy. This, pretty much. If either Marvel or DC put anything on the iBookstore at a reasonable price, all of the independent readers are dead in the water. On the other hand, this is all just a sideshow until they put new comics up; without a simultaneous release schedule, the singles that they sell aren't competing against floppies but trades. 99¢ for a digital copy compares favourably against $2.99 for a paper one, but those same issues in trades usually come to around $1.50 each. That simply isn't good value. I know that that argument was made about itunes as well - that the single songs were good value, but the albums weren't - but the difference is, there is essentially no value in being able to pick and choose single issues. You need to buy the whole run; only very occasionally is there the equivalent of 'filler' tracks. This is what stopped me getting into Comixology; they have a good selection, and given I haven't read Invincible yet (I know, I know; saving up for the Library edition) I thought I'd give it a go. But at £1.20 an issue, it actually works out cheaper to buy the TPB. And at the same time, although they're releasing three a week, they're still only up to 40 or so, so its not like I could cancel the paper copies and move over. It just irritates me a bit; Marvel in particular are quite proud of being open to this new technology, especially when compared to how the music and film industries took it, but when it comes down to it, their reluctance to commit is just as damaging. It says a lot that the most popular comics reader on the iPhone isn't one of the ones you've mentioned, but ComicZeal, an atrocious app which has one draw: it can read .cbz
|
| # ? Feb 24, 2010 14:27 |
|
|
Gaz-L posted:I like Marvel's online service, but as a compliment to hard copies. It's a way to read things I may not have managed to find in trade or back issues or try new things that I may not want to spend the money on, but am intrigued by. I think most people here are roughly the same, but they want the online to compliment the existence of trades. If the big two get it together, it'd hard to justify floppies, especially if you are one of the people who donates them to kids/hospitals after reading them like a few people do. That said, I predict that DC won't have anything at all on these services for at least a year, and won't do a simultaneous release for at least two years after the first important company does. And it'll cripple them.
|
| # ? Feb 24, 2010 14:31 |
|
|
See, here's the thing, I don't like the idea of being tethered to my computer for a hobby that doesn't inherently need the computer. I wouldn't buy a pdf copy of To Kill a Mockingbird and throw away my print one, and neither am I happy to buy my weekly comics in a format that is a hell of a lot more hassle, to me, than print. What about DRM? What about inconsistent internet connections? What about fans that don't have constant access to the net? And another thing, those darn kids keep walking on my lawn! (Yeah, I know how I sound.) Edit: Here's a genuine query, though. What about kids? Is a 5 year old going to have an iPod Touch to read Tiny Titans each month? Gaz-L fucked around with this message at Feb 24, 2010 around 14:41 |
| # ? Feb 24, 2010 14:37 |
|
|
Gaz-L posted:I have never understood the viewpoint that ebooks are preferable to an actual physical book or magazine. What if you're on a bus? What if the power goes out? And reading a comic in bed is a very different experience than having to sit at my desk and do so. What if the power goes out and you can't see? What if your book catches on fire? There are a lot of what-ifs associated to any medium. quote:See, here's the thing, I don't like the idea of being tethered to my computer for a hobby that doesn't inherently need the computer. I wouldn't buy a pdf copy of To Kill a Mockingbird and throw away my print one, and neither am I happy to buy my weekly comics in a format that is a hell of a lot more hassle, to me, than print. What about DRM? What about inconsistent internet connections? What about fans that don't have constant access to the net? I don't like being tethered to heavy books that I have to manually organize all of the time. Bag and boarding can suck, especially when I want to read a run of floppies I stored. DRM is an issue we'll have to see play out. Hopefully, a constant internet connection isn't required for books you buy per copy. A subscription like Marvel's would, of course. The only problem for me is the uncomfort associated with reading something on a computer/laptop. The biggest problems for me are sitting in a desk chair and/or holding the laptop. An iPad is about the size of a paper notebook that I can hold just like a book to read (in theory, I'll test this in a store). This eliminates 90% of problems I have with read electronic copies. The idea of electronic copies won me over when I just moved and realized the physical size and weight of my collection. I literally cannot store it. I also want the cataloguing capabilities of ebooks so I can organize my collection anyway I like. The only downside is that there is no secondary market for "rare" copies. This doesn't bother me.
|
| # ? Feb 24, 2010 15:54 |
|
|
I realize the thread kind of precludes this, but no-one sees any advantage to physical print formats?  (And I'm much happier lugging piles of books and reorganising them than dealing with something like iTunes telling me how I want things organised.) There's also the sharing issue. I can lend a few floppies or a trade to my friends now. The publishing industry hates this and actively wants to prevent it in e-books. Edit: I think what it really comes down to for me is not that I'm against digital distribution. Far from it. I'm against it wholesale replacing traditional print, for a number of, admittedly selfish, reasons. I like the feel of a book or issue in my hands. I like turning pages rather than swiping my thumb or tapping a button or clicking the mouse. I like the freedom in layout and formatting print allows. And I realise that digital opens new ways to do those, but then you get into the notion of if even trade collections work at that point. I'd prefer an equilibrium, not a takeover, essentially. More choice is always better than less. Gaz-L fucked around with this message at Feb 24, 2010 around 16:22 |
| # ? Feb 24, 2010 16:15 |
|
|
Gaz-L posted:I realize the thread kind of precludes this, but no-one sees any advantage to physical print formats? I have no problems with physical formats, but I do have a problem with the amount of space being taken up by my books, the majority of which I will only read once or twice. I'd much rather have things digitally that I can read on a whim without having to worry about bags and boards and boxes and such. As for the things I really like, then I buy the TPB or HC (I love me some OSHCs). And, yes, trade collections do work. Ask any successful webcomic artist out there. They all have books for sale. Personally, I can't see myself buying an iPad no matter how awesome comics are on it. It just doesn't seem to be a device that does what I would want it to do. However, I do hope it has enough success to bring digital comics kicking and screaming into the 21th century. That way, I can get a "convertable" netbook (netbook that turns into a tablet) that runs a real OS and is still easy enough to handle so I can read in bed. I'd be willing to sacrifice the ease of use and ergonomics of something like an iPad for more functionality.
|
| # ? Feb 24, 2010 16:48 |
|
|
Yeah, this is disjointed, but I think each joint is pretty clear and relevant. Anyone who hasn't read Scott McCloud's Reinventing Comics really should. Or just check out his website. One of the simple things he does is show how digital comics are a new medium, more separate from print comics then comics are from illustrated books. His Zot comic shows new ways to use the medium really well. It is really unfortunate that most webcomics still use the comic page format despite monitors being a completely different size. To pretty much go against what I just said, I could see digital comics being a replacement for floppies, which I have little love for in general, but fortunately I don't think trades will disappear. In general, there's a new paradigm for digital media where the product is cheaper but more limited. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can lend out Kindle books, iTunes movies and music, or Steam games. The Nook lets you lend out certain books once in your life. This is a pretty painful limitation for someone who likes to share cool stuff.
|
| # ? Feb 24, 2010 16:49 |
|
|
Gaz-L posted:I realize the thread kind of precludes this, but no-one sees any advantage to physical print formats? I didn't start this thread to bash on the physical format. In my opinion both mediums can co-exist (for a couple of decades, paper will unfortunately have to go it seems) I want to spend less on floppies (hence the digital format) so i can spend more on pretty hardcovers. I am already doing this with books. If i can get my disposable fun in a more cheap, less cumbersome format, i can, invest in high quality prints of books, i think are deserving of the investment. My only problem with the digital format is the effect it might have on our LCBS's. I like my comic book Guy, unfortunately i have been spending less and less money on books that i feel just aren´t worth the investment. Books that at 99c a pop in a digital format i would justify buying. I too like paper but i prefer high quality paper that also looks good on the bookshelf, not those longboxes hiding away in the closet.
|
| # ? Feb 24, 2010 16:56 |
|
|
^^ See, I can't ever see myself buying a prose novel in ebook format. The Zot example is what I mean when I say that reinventing the medium to work primarily online could screw over even collected print forms. If the point of that the page can be any size and each section can vary in size, how do you produce a print version that's viable and still feels like the same work? In truth, I think I'd adjust to floppies becoming digital only, but I still feel like something would be lost. A tablet in your lap is not the same thing.
|
| # ? Feb 24, 2010 17:02 |
|
|
Personally I'm torn. Physical comics, in my opinion, are better. You don't get dead pixels. The viewing quality of a book doesn't changed based on where you read it (I'm talking about the differences between monitors here). It's easier to read in bed, on the couch, or wherever. Easier to show people things, flip back to your favorite picture or badass moment, let people borrow. However, storage can be unwieldy if you're a serious collector. You don't have to worry about protecting the comics as much. No more bagging and boarding. It's backlit, I guess, so you can read in the dark? I think for me, I'll keep buying current stuff I know I like in floppy format, but if digital comics pick up (and I'm not talking about a browser-based thing like Marvel.com), I could totally see myself picking up a lot of older stuff that way, or trying out new series. That said, I'm not sure why people are going nuts for the iPad for this? I was excited that there were rumors of some big awesome integrated marketplace, but that never materialized. Apps like graphic.ly, longbox, and whatever else will work awesome on any tablet, including my 7 year old tablet PC I picked up on the cheap from ebay.
|
| # ? Feb 24, 2010 17:11 |
|
|
Gaz-L posted:If the point of that the page can be any size and each section can vary in size, how do you produce a print version that's viable and still feels like the same work? If you're creating a "page" of any size you want and varying however is needed to tell a story, then why are you worried about collecting it in print? I don't get the argument against forms of the medium because they can't be changed into a different form. It's like saying "if the point of comics is to play with space and time, how do you produce a movie version of it?"
|
| # ? Feb 24, 2010 18:15 |
|
|
Uthor posted:If you're creating a "page" of any size you want and varying however is needed to tell a story, then why are you worried about collecting it in print? I don't get the argument against forms of the medium because they can't be changed into a different form. It's like saying "if the point of comics is to play with space and time, how do you produce a movie version of it?" Well, my point is that whenever digital comics come up, McCloud's thoughts on using the digital space differently are discussed. If the industry as a whole were to adopt that stance (which is unlikely) then not only would the weekly issue fall to the wayside, so would any trade or HC collection program.
|
| # ? Feb 24, 2010 18:23 |
|
|
Gaz-L posted:Well, my point is that whenever digital comics come up, McCloud's thoughts on using the digital space differently are discussed. If the industry as a whole were to adopt that stance (which is unlikely) then not only would the weekly issue fall to the wayside, so would any trade or HC collection program. I could imagine being very happy with digital-only comics if they used the medium well and didn't have bullshit anti-piracy stuff. Digitized comics are ok, trades still rule. My LCBS is awesome, but I don't know where it goes in a future where I get digital comics and my trades are from DCBS. Sad.
|
| # ? Feb 24, 2010 18:48 |
|
|
Myrddin Emrys posted:That said, I'm not sure why people are going nuts for the iPad for this? I was excited that there were rumors of some big awesome integrated marketplace, but that never materialized. Apps like graphic.ly, longbox, and whatever else will work awesome on any tablet, including my 7 year old tablet PC I picked up on the cheap from ebay. Well, there is going to be the iBookstore which basically is that big awesome integrated marketplace. And I think the reason why people are talking about the iPad is because it is the first tablet PC that will actually get market penetration. Yeah, your 7 year old tablet can handle all those apps, but who the hell is going to bother making an app for it? The total sales of tablet PCs to date will probably be matched in the first month of the iPad, and developers and content creators know it. That's why I think now is the time to talk about it, basically; the iPad is the perfect form for digital comics, and while other tablets have existed before, they won't have made a blip on Marvel's radar. OTOH, I have to disagree about digital comics being "great for picking up older series" for the reasons I said; the TPB of an older series will always compare favourably with the digital download, so unless you are so cagey about a series that you won't even blow £6 on it, digital comics only matter for new releases.
|
| # ? Feb 25, 2010 11:49 |
|
|
Myrddin Emrys posted:Personally I'm torn. Physical comics, in my opinion, are better. You don't get dead pixels. The viewing quality of a book doesn't changed based on where you read it (I'm talking about the differences between monitors here). It's easier to read in bed, on the couch, or wherever. Easier to show people things, flip back to your favorite picture or badass moment, let people borrow. I think people need to really get over the "non-physical" problem. Devices will be shakey at first but the kinks will be worked out and things like "dead pixels" will be a non-issue. Every medium has it's pluses and minuses. Think about all of the minuses of paper: degradation over time, fragility, physical space, etc. Digital copies will be superior now or in the near-future. The only question in the air is DRM. There will still be books I'll want to have a nice hardcover of special comics but I'll want my collection to be digital. paulnewmanseyes answered the "Why iPad?" question well.
|
| # ? Feb 25, 2010 12:19 |
|
|
The DRM issue leads into the sharing and borrowing thing, though. And digital copies are only superior if you discount the tactile element, which does seem to be something digital-only proponents are quick to push aside. There's also the assumption that anyone who likes comics (or books in the larger scheme) will buy an iPad or other tablet, or will be content to only read at their home PC. As it stands, I don't need to spend £300 on a special device to read my issue of Batgirl. If things shift over to digital only, I'd have to do so if I still wanted my weekly comics for my commute. And, to flip an example from earlier: if I wanted to give a bunch of comics I didn't like or don't wish to keep to a kid's hospital or something, I can't. (And woo, a book version of iTunes. Another program that will think it knows better than me how to organise things and have a horrible interface!) I think shifting things entirely to the digital is a waste. Use it to expand the market and give technophiles and Apple addicts another option, but why throw the baby out with the bathwater? Gaz-L fucked around with this message at Feb 25, 2010 around 13:28 |
| # ? Feb 25, 2010 13:22 |
|
|
Gaz-L posted:The DRM issue leads into the sharing and borrowing thing, though. And digital copies are only superior if you discount the tactile element, which does seem to be something digital-only proponents are quick to push aside. Let someone borrow your computer/ebook/iPad then? Why do they need a copy of the digital file to count as borrowing? (It isn't then, it's copying) Let them borrow your device. It's a bit more confusing and a bit more absurd since the reading device is more valuable and multi-purposed than a single book. But that's the nature of the beast. Giving someone the file is copying. The physical book equivalent would be photocopying/handcopying a comic, which is also absurd. Personally, the sharing and borrowing aspect of books is a very small percentage of my habit. I like reading from a personal library. Why discount a new medium because of the relatively small problem of sharing/borrowing? Gaz-L posted:There's also the assumption that anyone who likes comics (or books in the larger scheme) will buy an iPad or other tablet, or will be content to only read at their home PC. As it stands, I don't need to spend £300 on a special device to read my issue of Batgirl. If things shift over to digital only, I'd have to do so if I still wanted my weekly comics for my commute. And, to flip an example from earlier: if I wanted to give a bunch of comics I didn't like or don't wish to keep to a kid's hospital or something, I can't. Buy a trade. The non-hardcore public does not buy or want monthlies. Or use a web browser interface if you're that desperate. Gaz-L posted:(And woo, a book version of iTunes. Another program that will think it knows better than me how to organise things and have a horrible interface!) Things won't be entirely digital I'm sure, trades and HCs will stay. However, I do think that the monthly format will go all digital as ebook readers/iPads become common. The kindle is already a success and I'm betting the iPad will make digital books even more preferred. Of course, I have no stats to back up my line of thinking.
|
| # ? Feb 25, 2010 13:44 |
|
|
Neep posted:Let someone borrow your computer/ebook/iPad then? Why do they need a copy of the digital file to count as borrowing? (It isn't then, it's copying) Let them borrow your device. It's a bit more confusing and a bit more absurd since the reading device is more valuable and multi-purposed than a single book. But that's the nature of the beast. Giving someone the file is copying. The physical book equivalent would be photocopying/handcopying a comic, which is also absurd. And I'm going to reiterate it because the point is constantly being neatly ignored in this discussion. Kids. What about kids? Yeah, yeah, 'kids don't read comics anymore'. Maybe not, but that's a BAD thing. And shifting the market to a digital only one is just adding another obstacle and removing some of the fun from the hobby for that lost part of the audience. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'd have had more fun with a pile of random floppies than clicking through a folder when I was 6. quote:Buy a trade. The non-hardcore public does not buy or want monthlies. Or use a web browser interface if you're that desperate. quote:Things won't be entirely digital I'm sure, trades and HCs will stay. However, I do think that the monthly format will go all digital as ebook readers/iPads become common. The kindle is already a success and I'm betting the iPad will make digital books even more preferred. And those things are all great. But the Kindle is not a replacement for an actual book or magazine to me. Nor would it replace a trade or monthly. Clearly you find it just as rewarding. That's wonderful. All I'm saying is that that feeling is not universal, and to force that format on the entire audience, like it or not, is a bad move. I also concede that on at least a limited scale, you're probably right, and I'm going to have to adjust eventually regardless. Gaz-L fucked around with this message at Feb 25, 2010 around 14:15 |
| # ? Feb 25, 2010 14:07 |
|
|
paulnewmanseyes posted:And I think the reason why people are talking about the iPad is because it is the first tablet PC that will actually get market penetration. Yeah, your 7 year old tablet can handle all those apps, but who the hell is going to bother making an app for it? The total sales of tablet PCs to date will probably be matched in the first month of the iPad, and developers and content creators know it. That's the beauty of having a not-locked-down ecosystem. The iPad is going to require "special" apps made specifically for it. Other tablets, like say the HP Slate, will run any Windows app, including all the existing apps and new ones that are slated (pun intended) for the future. It's just so weird to hear people saying "We'll finally get X <in this case, comic readers> on a tablet that I can take anywhere!" when these things have been around for a while. Granted the digital comics marketplaces are new, but there's already options for existing tablets without getting locked to a particular device. There things already exist! I will give you the point about market penetration though. Tablets up until now have just seemed to slip past the average consumer (which it sounds like they have for you as well). What you end up getting, though, is a huge misconception about how existing tablets work. Neep posted:I think people need to really get over the "non-physical" problem. Devices will be shakey at first but the kinks will be worked out and things like "dead pixels" will be a non-issue. I mentioned all those points? And how are dead pixels going to be a "non-issue"? They've been an issue since LCDs came out. They've been minimized but I don't think there's an easy and cheap way to make pixels "go away", I think what'll have to happen is a technology change to get "dead pixels" to be a nonissue, but it's pretty optimistic to assume a new technology that gets rid of one problems won't have issues of its own. Plus devices do bring up other issues. Battery life has to be phenomenal. What if you're watching on a PC and the power goes out? If it happens with a physical device you can still read by sunlight. If it happens in the dark, who doesn't have a flashlight, or candles, or something? Now how many people have a generator they'd be willing to use to keep reading? Or traveling. I've been camping a few times last year and each time I took a stack of comics with me [or explored some new LCBS and grabbed some issues there]. Without an easy way to charge... There's lots of pros and cons for each. Personally I'm over the "non-physical problem" for books, and have a Kindle. That said, a Kindle's battery lasts about 2 weeks on a single charge. Tablets range from 2 hours to 10 hours. That's pathetic. Myrddin Emrys fucked around with this message at Feb 25, 2010 around 14:33 |
| # ? Feb 25, 2010 14:27 |
|
|
Gaz-L posted:Just because it's not your habit, doesn't mean it's not a part of the experience for others. Now, granted, it's more common with trades, but you hit on exactly the point I was making. You're right, the only way would be to lend the expensive piece of hardware, with all of my stuff on it, as well as any non-leisure material or applications I may keep on there. It's not only something you don't do (I don't lend out my laptop, nor my entire library), it's also significantly less practical. The idea of borrowing will probably have to change. While I hope DRM will be non-existent, I think the model of showing a friend a couple of pages on my own device then having them drop a buck or two on the issue themselves if they like it isn't a bad one. Borrowing in a digital sense just doesn't really exist. It's copy or nothing. Gaz-L posted:And I'm going to reiterate it because the point is constantly being neatly ignored in this discussion. Kids. What about kids? Yeah, yeah, 'kids don't read comics anymore'. Maybe not, but that's a BAD thing. And shifting the market to a digital only one is just adding another obstacle and removing some of the fun from the hobby for that lost part of the audience. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'd have had more fun with a pile of random floppies than clicking through a folder when I was 6. Kids these days are growing up with computers, getting their first cellphones before they hit double digits. I won't be surprised if in 10 years kids use a ebook reader for their first books rather than a physical copy. I never used a typewriter, I started with a computer. It's the same transition. I don't think kids will have a problem, it's us adults. Gaz-L posted:Again, missing the point. And if the non-hardcores don't buy monthlies, why would they overwhelmingly flock to doing so digitally? I agree it's a way for the market to expand, but I doubt it's going to happen overnight to the point where print just dies off in the next couple of years. I'm not going to go to the store next September and suddenly have nothing on the shelves. I'm not saying this will happen overnight. I do think once DC and Marvel dip their toes into a "digital monthly on iBookstore" scheme, they'll see how profitable it can be and start making a transition away from paper monthlies. This will also probably take years to really ramp up as the devices need time to get into consumer's hands. I think the hardcore comic guys can easily afford a device as many spend hundreds of dollars a month in a store. I also expect to see a lot of kicking and screaming if they mention anything that will phase out paper monthlies. Gaz-L posted:And those things are all great. But the Kindle is not a replacement for an actual book or magazine to me. Nor would it replace a trade or monthly. Clearly you find it just as rewarding. That's wonderful. All I'm saying is that that feeling is not universal, and to force that format on the entire audience, like it or not, is a bad move. I also concede that on at least a limited scale, you're probably right, and I'm going to have to adjust eventually regardless. I'm not 100% sold on the idea yet but it sounds very promising to me. I also don't understand how people can be married to paper books when the usage of digital copies can be so easy and searchable. A lot of it does depend on the device and I think we're very close to a good one (probably iPad 3.0). Paper books will always be around but I think it they'll fade into the background like vinyl records.
|
| # ? Feb 25, 2010 14:29 |
|
|
one thing that any digital comic purveyor is going to run into is this: people still have an inbuilt distaste for paying for certain types of electronic content. In order for electronic content to sell well, it has to be priced lower than its physical equivalent (if there is one), and/or offer things the physical equivalent cannot. Music sells well because 99 cents per song is less than buying a CD, and it's easier to put multiple gigabytes of song on an mp3 player than to cart around a stack of CDs. If electronic books take off, and I think they've finally found a form that works, it will be because of a lower price point and things that paper cannot do well (searchability, storage, etc). With comics, the things you're going to run into are the difficulty in getting a screen product with the resolution of glossy paper, and the price point. You'll also have to deal with the fact that while digital comics are much easier to store than regular ones, they don't have any resale value. The chances of there being an online collector's market are low. Basically, the big thing in making any electronic content sale viable is this: you have to make it so that buying it isn't much more of a hassle than getting it in less legal ways. It wasn't until iTunes that the concept of people paying for electronic music was really practical, and it won't be until there's a simple and friendly comic book sale system (preferably with DRM at a bare minimum) that electronic comics will be something you sell on any large scale.
|
| # ? Feb 25, 2010 15:02 |
|
|
The main advantage to me of digital in general whether its comics , music or films/tv series, is the issue of space. Once you have filled your shelves with comics you can either devote more space in your house to them, or throw some comics in the bin. With digital storage and cloud storage you will never hit the storage limit in your life, with say just a shelf of external hard drives or with your old comics stored in "the cloud" and streaming acess to them. Another interesting advantage of digital comics particularly is you are no longer bound to the colour limits of print. Many colours cannot be replicated with CYMK compared to RGB screens, therefore digital comics can contain many colours never before seen in printed comics.
|
| # ? Feb 25, 2010 15:11 |
|
|
Neep posted:The idea of borrowing will probably have to change. While I hope DRM will be non-existent, I think the model of showing a friend a couple of pages on my own device then having them drop a buck or two on the issue themselves if they like it isn't a bad one. Borrowing in a digital sense just doesn't really exist. It's copy or nothing. quote:Kids these days are growing up with computers, getting their first cellphones before they hit double digits. I won't be surprised if in 10 years kids use a ebook reader for their first books rather than a physical copy. I never used a typewriter, I started with a computer. It's the same transition. I don't think kids will have a problem, it's us adults.  Technology!" but the idea that a child might grow up not even turning a page in a book is abhorrent to me.quote:I'm not 100% sold on the idea yet but it sounds very promising to me. I also don't understand how people can be married to paper books when the usage of digital copies can be so easy and searchable. A lot of it does depend on the device and I think we're very close to a good one (probably iPad 3.0). Paper books will always be around but I think it they'll fade into the background like vinyl records. And I think this marks an impasse. I can't understand how people can abandon real books so easily. I'm a subscriber to Marvel's online archive, and I really like it. I also can only read maybe 2-3 issues in a single sitting before my brain rebels. I can read an entire Omnibus/Absolute in a single sitting depending on the material. Kicking back on my bed or a big chair and thumbing through each week's comics is a concept I can't translate mentally into using a tablet or laptop to replicate. Applebee123 posted:The main advantage to me of digital in general whether its comics , music or films/tv series, is the issue of space. Once you have filled your shelves with comics you can either devote more space in your house to them, or throw some comics in the bin. With digital storage and cloud storage you will never hit the storage limit in your life, with say just a shelf of external hard drives or with your old comics stored in "the cloud" and streaming acess to them. And for me personally, the external HDDs would be a hassle in a different way. Finding the book I want in a cupboard or bookshelf is as simple as scanning with my eye. If I have a dozen hard drives, I need to plug each one in in turn to try and recall where the thing I want, or to see what I still have. The colour comment is valid, but brings me back to the point that optimising things for a digital form is directly harmful to even maintaining any kind of trade publishing program. Gaz-L fucked around with this message at Feb 25, 2010 around 18:21 |
| # ? Feb 25, 2010 18:17 |
|
|
Gaz-L posted:And you don't see that as a negative? Like I said, borrowing in the traditional sense with physical media just doesn't exist. It doesn't really bother me as I'm not a library for people. I will recommend friends things and lend something on occasion but showing a few pages on an ebook reader to someone will be similar. On the whole, it's not an issue for me. It's just part of the new medium and will be something to get used to. Gaz-L posted:I started with a computer too. I'm only 23. My point is that it's still more rewarding and engaging for a kid to have the phyisical media as much as it is user-friendliness. An actual issue has a feel, a smell, satisfying elements that cannot be replicated digitally. Maybe this is me being " I feel like people say the same thing with cursive handwriting versus print handwriting. Turning pages and very pretty handwriting are artifacts of older ways of doing things. The feel of turning pages is just something newer generations may never appreciate just because technology changes. They'll have new details to appreciate. Gaz-L posted:And I think this marks an impasse. I can't understand how people can abandon real books so easily. I'm a subscriber to Marvel's online archive, and I really like it. I also can only read maybe 2-3 issues in a single sitting before my brain rebels. I can read an entire Omnibus/Absolute in a single sitting depending on the material. Kicking back on my bed or a big chair and thumbing through each week's comics is a concept I can't translate mentally into using a tablet or laptop to replicate. I kick back in bed or on the couch with my netbook to read the internet or comics and it's great. I just wish I had something with more screen with the same low weight. I hope the iPad fills that. It's fine we're at an impasse, I just think the change I want is inevitable and clinging to paper as the primary medium for books is unrealistic for the future. Maybe I'm being overzealous with the timeframe but hopefully not.
|
| # ? Feb 25, 2010 18:26 |
|
|
Gaz-L posted:And for me personally, the external HDDs would be a hassle in a different way. Finding the book I want in a cupboard or bookshelf is as simple as scanning with my eye. If I have a dozen hard drives, I need to plug each one in in turn to try and recall where the thing I want, or to see what I still have. For me, trying to remember if my book is in my apartment, at my parents' house, in one of the four long boxes (and which one), or lent out is a PITA. And, once I do, I have to drag the boxes out of the closet (after driving hours to get to them), thumb through them, find the book, and then repeat to put the book back. I love books, but man, they take up a lot of room.
|
| # ? Feb 25, 2010 19:28 |
|
|
Gaz-L posted:And you don't see that as a negative? I'd send things to the cloud, if I had aboslutely no space to store them on my external hard drives. There is a risk the company might go under, but with physical media I would have thrown them away due to lack of space and there is a certainty I wouldn't be able to read them. Hence with physical it is certain that many back issues will have to be thrown away, with "the cloud" there is a fair chance they will be acessable for a long time into the future. Even if it that service goes down, you can "pirate" them ethically.
|
| # ? Feb 25, 2010 22:03 |
|
|
Gaz-L posted:I started with a computer too. I'm only 23. My point is that it's still more rewarding and engaging for a kid to have the phyisical media as much as it is user-friendliness. An actual issue has a feel, a smell, satisfying elements that cannot be replicated digitally. Maybe this is me being " I'm afraid I think you are just being " Technology!". Claiming there's something objectively preferable about growing up with paper is kinda indefensible.You're right about the DRM issue, of course. If Apple decides to completely shut down their iBookstore, then you're SOL. All I can say is that that is incredibly unlikely. HOWEVER, that is one of the reasons why I personally am refusing to buy anything on the smallish ones that exist right now. I simply don't trust Comixology to exist for as long as they should. By my reckoning you'd need 35000 comics to fill up a 1TB hard drive. Space is not going to be an issue unless you start doing things like downloading everything_ever_printed_by_DC.zip. Myrddin Emrys posted:No offense, but that's just stupid. Any application that will run on Windows (graphic.ly, Longbox, etc.) will work on my 7 year old tablet. It's not going to NEED a special application. Well, you're right that it doesn't need a special application. But I'd argue its the lack of special applications that is one of the reasons why tablets have failed, thus far, to capture the public's imagination. A pen and touchscreen is a fundamentally different input mechanism, and requires a comparably radical UI. If the applications aren't developed specifically for a tablet, they will end up feeling clunky, graceless and ill-thought out. Also, lets not forget that by that logic, the iPad being able to run iPhone apps is a major plus. Also, tablets already exist, but they're, well, poo poo. Big, slow, expensive, and reduced to running almost exclusively applications not designed for them. That's why they've slipped past the average consumer, and that's why I've never bought one. The HP Slate will run any Windows app, you're right. And those apps will present the comics in 16:9, with an interface requiring either a button press or keyboard to navigate. No dragging, flicking, squeezing, etc; all of the UI innovations that make the iPhone such a joy to use. I know I'm harping on. My essential point is that its not just being first, or technically selling a tablet PC. Its having the engineering and design chops to make one people will actually buy, and the ballsiness to tell developers to develop for it, rather than retrofit your tablet to fit a completely different class of program. tl;dr: Wanting kids to use paper just because is irrational, HD space isn't an issue, and the iPad is, for all intents and purposes, the first tablet computer. However, the fear that a vendor will shut down is real, so stick around for one to get too big to fail before making the leap.
|
| # ? Feb 26, 2010 11:30 |
|
|
paulnewmanseyes posted:Well, you're right that it doesn't need a special application. But I'd argue its the lack of special applications that is one of the reasons why tablets have failed, thus far, to capture the public's imagination. A pen and touchscreen is a fundamentally different input mechanism, and requires a comparably radical UI. If the applications aren't developed specifically for a tablet, they will end up feeling clunky, graceless and ill-thought out. Also, lets not forget that by that logic, the iPad being able to run iPhone apps is a major plus. I think the main reason tablets have failed to capture the public's imagination is lack of sensationalism around them. Let's face it, tablets, until now, have slipped under the radar in every foreseeable way. There's no ad campaigns for them, no special advertising of any kind. Convertible tablets, in stores like Best Buy, are set up just like other laptops (in "screen and keyboard" mode, not slate mode). When I was looking for a tablet to play with a few years ago, I took my (less tech savvy) girlfriend along and she was clearly unimpressed with the idea of getting a tablet... until she saw one and tried one out. Just some simple convertible HP tablet or something, and she was super psyched about it, talking about how useful it would be for this or that, even with just the standard Vista tablet offerings. I guess what I'm saying is it has a lot less to do with creating "custom apps", as it has to do with the general awareness of tablets. At my workplace, I've had tablet at my desk for the past two years. People have literally been coming up to me since the iPad announcement asking how the heck I got my hands on an early iPad. It looks NOTHING like an iPad. People seem to now associate tablets with iPads and are unaware that there WERE any offerings. The worst part is the other manufacturers seem to be going along with this, with the HP Slate and whatnot seeming like brand new things from HP. You're also a little misguided about the devices themselves. This is not your fault, this is something I've seen a LOT of lately. Where you say that the HP Slate will present comics 16:9 but won't have neat gestures is right and wrong. It's right in that most initial comics programs probably won't allow that, but you're wrong in blaming the technology. That's completely the developers/UI designers fault. I think the biggest difference in Windows apps versus iPad/iPhone apps is that for the iPhone the community takes a long hard look at interface options. For Windows apps the general idea is "just do what works and is cheapest" which is usually just buttons, like you said. This is not Windows fault, this is the application's fault.
|
| # ? Feb 26, 2010 14:56 |
|
|
Is there any actual reason to keep comics someone's bought on a 'cloud'?
|
| # ? Feb 26, 2010 15:56 |
|
|
StumblyWumbly posted:Is there any actual reason to keep comics someone's bought on a 'cloud'? any reason for the purchaser or the vendor? For the purchaser, the ability to access them on any computer, maybe. For the vendor, this is where you get into "licensing versus selling" and there are plenty of financial reasons not to give the customer a fully working standalone of your product.
|
| # ? Feb 26, 2010 16:31 |
|
|
Myrddin Emrys posted:You're also a little misguided about the devices themselves. This is not your fault, this is something I've seen a LOT of lately. Where you say that the HP Slate will present comics 16:9 but won't have neat gestures is right and wrong. It's right in that most initial comics programs probably won't allow that, but you're wrong in blaming the technology. That's completely the developers/UI designers fault. Actually, this part I agree with wholeheartedly, except that I do see it as Microsoft's fault. If the iPhone or iPad could simply run Mac OS apps, the same problem would be present there too. By playing up the cross-compatablity, Microsoft has removed the incentive to code special versions for tablets, which leads to the interface mess we're in now. Regardless, we both seem to agree on the salient point for this thread, which is that by bringing tablets to the attention of the wider market, Apple has opened up a ton of new options for those wanting to read digital comics. As for the cloud thing, I guess the nice side is back-up and universal access. But no, there's no real reason to cloud your comics, and I don't think anyone really will. They're quite big files, remember, and that means bandwidth.
|
| # ? Feb 26, 2010 16:37 |
|
|
That's about what I thought. I think the Kindle model is that your account purchases books, you can have multiple devices on an account and multiple accounts on a device, and the Kindle downloads books as needed. I'm not sure how storage works, but books should be small enough that you can have multiple books saved on your Kindle. Added control (for Amazon) comes because apparently Amazon can delete books from your Kindle. It's also worth mentioning that I think digitized comics are much further along in Asia. Apparently e-Ink's screens (as used on the Kindle) have been sold to companies in Japan and Korea for manga readers. The transition works there because manga has a smaller format and both are black and white only.
|
| # ? Feb 26, 2010 16:57 |
|
|
paulnewmanseyes posted:Actually, this part I agree with wholeheartedly, except that I do see it as Microsoft's fault. If the iPhone or iPad could simply run Mac OS apps, the same problem would be present there too. By playing up the cross-compatablity, Microsoft has removed the incentive to code special versions for tablets, which leads to the interface mess we're in now. However, as a consumer, I am utterly happy that MS does backwards compatibility. I swear, if we had to re-buy applications for OS upgrades I would be pissed. But yeah, I guess my opinion can be summed up as cautiously excited - I really want to see comic apps come out for all the reasons I mentioned in previous posts, but I'm extremely wary that it could get locked down to particular hardware or software. I'd prefer to see digital comics as something more akin to mp3s or something, to be honest. Buy the content, choose the marketplace/device/reader yourself.
|
| # ? Feb 26, 2010 20:01 |
|
|
Looking at various articles it seems a colour e-ink reader is not just a "possibilty" but already exists. Hopefully the I-pad will push Marvel and DC into digital distribution of new releases on a large scale and in a year or two we will have an affordable fast colour e-ink reader out. This press article states the first mass production of a colour e-ink reader will be towards the end of 2010. http://www.fastcompany.com/blog/kit...lor-kindle-2010
|
| # ? Feb 28, 2010 03:41 |
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2013 17:23 |
|
|
Longbox has been rumored to be coming for about as long as itunes has been out. I want it really badly, but I know in my heart of hearts that it is a fleeting dream.
|
| # ? Feb 28, 2010 04:01 |
|
