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Evfedu posted:I wouldn't have it any other way, but of the two characters most easily defined as "good" in his books (up to BSC spoilers): one was a mass-murderer of frankly epic proportions, the other was a revenge-driven incestuous warlord. The most easily-defined 'good' character is the Dogman, and of all the characters given points of view or major roles, he is by far the least flawed.
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Mar 29, 2011 13:23
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John Charity Spring posted:I always saw Black Dow as being Northern Irish, personally. Accent isn't nearly incomprehensible enough.
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Mar 31, 2011 15:17
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Best Served Cold is stylistically a lot like The First Law, but condensed down to a single volume. The Heroes is shorter than any of the other books and reads differently, but he does a great job with it. It's much more a war novel than the others. I'm about halfway through The Heroes and think they're both about equal in terms of enjoyability. But yeah, you should read BSC first because one major character is thoroughly developed in it and a more minor but still important one is introduced, plus events from BSC are referenced in The Heroes. In fact, you'd completely spoil BSC (not to mention TFL) if you wanted to read it in the future if you happened to pick up The Heroes first, which kind of sucks since it was on the bestseller list and heavily marketed and might be many people's first introduction to Abercrombie. Like DFu4ever said, they really should label The Heroes as book 5 of a series or something.
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Apr 11, 2011 20:41
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From now until the end, things just get realer and realer. Come back and read that post when you're through (and then again when you read BSC and The Heroes, since some of the plot threads are left dangling) and you'll have a laugh.
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Apr 11, 2011 21:43
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While I recommend reading Best Served Cold, there's some other information that was missed in the above point that relates to the grander story. 1) Styria was basically a proxy war between Bayaz and Khalul 2) Bayaz had a second Eater apprentice named Shenkt, who turned his back on Bayaz; Shenkt is the father of Vitari's children and a tremendous badass and really hates Bayaz 3) Shenkt becomes an advisor to Monza as Duchess of Styria and has her turn away offers of aid and alliance from both the Union and the South, making Styria under Monza a nation independent of the machinations of the apprentices of Juvens HeroOfTheRevolution fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Apr 20, 2011 |
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Apr 20, 2011 23:20
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A relatively important character tells the main character that he likes strong women and asks if she'd piss on him. She just walks out. It's done more for comedic effect than anything, and nor is it much of a spoiler.
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Apr 21, 2011 16:08
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keiran_helcyan posted:I like to imagine Monza's incestuous relationship with her brother was a shoutout to GRRM. If said relationship actually happened. Shivers hears rumors from people who have a stake in spreading bad rumors about Monza (if I remember correctly), and you can certainly read it that way, but I think there was a lot of ambiguity there. Monza never explicitly denies it when Shivers accuses her, but she also never explicitly says it or even thinks it either. It's certainly not like GRRM, where it unquestionably happens. Bizob posted:Does she walk out? I kind of thought the scene cuts out at a point where she goes "well.....". Yeah I think reflir just wanted to smugly announce he quit the series halfway through for whatever reason
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Apr 22, 2011 09:43
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hellvis454 posted:I just started with Joe Abercrombie after reading (and giving up) 3000+ pages of the Malazan Book of the Fallen series. Abercrombie's better, and I say that as a Malazan fan.
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May 2, 2011 16:27
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Chamberk posted:I'm about a third of the way into Best Served Cold by now; how many years after the trilogy does it take place? There are a lot of familiar faces, but a decent amount of time seems to have passed. BSC takes place about 3 years following the end of TFL, and I believe The Heroes is about 5 years after the end of BSC (so about 8 years after the end of TFL). I'm not 100% sure on the timeline because I'm not sure exactly how long TFL and BSC take. TFL is definitely over a year, probably closer to 2, while BSC is probably around a year.
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May 9, 2011 20:30
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:While we're at it, who the gently caress is Shenkt? I feel like I should know this. He's the first(?) apprentice of Bayaz, and the husband of Vitari. Like Yoru Sulfur, he's an Eater. Unlike Yoru Sulfur, he realized Bayaz was a tremendous rear end in a top hat and turned against him. I don't think he was mentioned until BSC, though I might be wrong and there may be a passing reference to him in TFL. I thought the Shenkt plot was probably the best written part of BSC. You spend most of the book reading about how he's out 'for vengeance' and since he's an assassin and a badass you figure he's hunting Monza for some unknown reason. In your head you're thinking the big reveal is going to be him facing Monza down and telling her why he's seeking revenge against her, probably something to do with her being the Butcher of Caprile, which is an incident we don't really get the story on until the last book. Plus he's an Eater so he's got to be a bad guy, right? Then he's randomly Vitari's husband and then there's the big twist, about him being Bayaz's old apprentice. Really well done, I didn't see it coming. HeroOfTheRevolution fucked around with this message at 15:47 on May 13, 2011 |
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May 13, 2011 15:41
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You might want to shove that entire post in spoiler tags.systran posted:The only reason he ever "does the wrong thing" is because this random and unexplained thing happens to him that makes him kill people. It doesn't create a believable conflict to me, it's just like a nice guy who turns into someone else beyond his control. It's stated pretty plainly that Logen was a tremendous rear end in a top hat whose bloodthirstiness pushed Bethod into his conquest. He spends all book blaming Bethod for turning the North into a war-torn mess but in the end you learn its really his fault. That didn't have anything to do with the Bloody Nine. You spend most of the book thinking Logen was a good guy who got a raw deal but in reality he was a bad guy trying to deceive himself. He's not even much of a 'good guy,' he just presents himself as one by spouting 'advice,' mostly in the form of trite platitudes. quote:Maybe he's trying to leave room for a sequel, but the ending did not work. What happened with Ferro? Yes she went south for vengeance, but obviously there is more going on than that. The main antagonist is still alive and was never even shown in the book. Bayaz was hinted at throughout the series as being less than "good", but I feel like the end just suddenly revealed much too quickly a lot about how Bayaz really is. Showing the full extent of Bayaz' control over everything should have been revealed more gradually, or at least his attitude toward controlling everything. There have been two semi-stand alone 'sequels' with more in the works. You know that, right? Several characters return in one or both of Best Served Cold and The Heroes. The whole arc was never meant to be resolved in The First Law. I think that's one of the main problems, that it was never made clear that The First Law was supposed to be the stage-setter and not a conclusion. For what it's worth (BSC spoilers) an important POV character is an Eater in Best Served Cold and the next book Abercrombie is writing is going to take place in the South. While I understand a lot of your complaints, I feel some of them are mired in traditional literary thinking. You need hints or clues or what have you. Abercrombie doesn't really do that. Everyone could see one particular twist (Jezal becoming king) coming. Others come a lot faster and harder. While you might think it's poor writing, I think it's realistic; life doesn't always drop clues for its big twists. We get a very narrow view of the story through six flawed (except the Dogman, he's awesome) individuals, rather than through an omniscient narrator. Also your thing about battle scenes is a lot of hyperbole. The Dark Elf Trilogy this is not. HeroOfTheRevolution fucked around with this message at 15:48 on May 16, 2011 |
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May 16, 2011 15:43
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systran posted:I am aware there were other books, but since they specifically were mentioned as "stand alone" I assumed that the trilogy would also be stand alone. If you have to read the "stand alone" books to finish the plot of the three books, then I would argue that the stand alone books are not stand alone but actually essential. Yeah. In this thread we all pretty much say the same thing. The 'stand-alone' novels don't really stand alone. The trilogy does, but the other novels are connected, and not just tangentially. The problem is portraying them as such; a lot of people pick up one of them (especially The Heroes because it was a bestseller) and then like it and intend to read TFL and BSC... but they've already ruined some of the biggest plot points in the 4 earlier books by reading The Heroes first. It's an issue, and I don't quite understand why it's been marketed the way it has. Likely it's about book deals. quote:I disagree about Logan; the author made him extremely likable and the way he was portrayed throughout the whole series was as a likable person. Everyone he talked to that wasn't prejudiced against him ended up finding him likable. The things that he actually did throughout the whole series were largely good, he just TALKED a lot about how "he was not good". I actually don't think he did too much on the moral scale over the course of the book, aside from minor things like being nice to Jezal. "Likable" and "morally good" are two completely different things. quote:For example Brother Longfoot did not just seem unrealistic because of "flawed narrators" but rather because his dialogue was absolutely terrible and in no way realistic at all (same with Poulder and what's his name). Why was Longfoot even in the book? Yeah, Longfoot was one of the series' weaker characters. On the other hand, it's worth nothing that you only see Poulder and Kroy through the lens of their subordinates or people not used to dealing with a highly rigid military institution. Kroy receives significantly more characterization in The Heroes, where there's a POV character who is significantly closer to him. But it's far from unrealistic that generals squabble. HeroOfTheRevolution fucked around with this message at 20:17 on May 16, 2011 |
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May 16, 2011 17:52
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Maybe Bayaz could sense it, but didn't need to state it explicitly by asking questions like with Ferro because it doesn't seem to be any real mystery that Logen can talk to spirits.
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May 20, 2011 01:03
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Jezal was always a bitch though. He thought he was making some progress for awhile, but was it really a surprise that when push came to shove he reverted back into being a bitch?
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May 20, 2011 19:48
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edit: why I double-posted 11 minutes apart from each other I will never know
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May 20, 2011 19:59
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One of my favorite sentences in any book was "But the war was over." from the end of The Heroes. Short, sweet, and to the point. It just said so much. HeroOfTheRevolution fucked around with this message at 18:21 on May 31, 2011 |
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May 31, 2011 18:18
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Megaflare posted:But this is the second time that it ended with ~and, poof, Bayaz was behind it all~. And on account of what I just said above, Bayaz being a huge dick is worse because there's really no guarantee that there's going to be any confrontation with him like there might be from some more predictable writers. I also don't really like what he did to Gorst... felt like he did it just so he could write another Glokta because he knew people liked it in TFL. I think the big difference between Glokta and Gorst is that Glokta's predicament is really no fault of his own, but he believes himself to be its root cause and thus his cynicism and bitterness is a manifestation of his own undeserved self-loathing. In reality, Glokta is ultra-competent, but doesn't acknowledge it until the end of TFL. On the other hand, Gorst's bitterness and cynicism is a result of his own arrogance and self-delusion. We spend most of the book thinking he's been unfairly treated because we get that through his POV. In reality, Gorst was as or more neglectful and incompetent as the people he's been looking down on as idiotic for most of the book. The two are both cynical, but I really like the dichotomy in the characters. I also really liked both.
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Jun 3, 2011 22:18
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Plucky Brit posted:Also Glokta (I think it's him) is walking in what appears to be a cyberpunk gothic city. I thought that too, but I think it's the inside of the House of the Maker. I don't like that cover much though. The title takes up like half the cover and is awkward.
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Jun 4, 2011 11:41
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The only problem I have is that 'the horror of war' is probably the most done trope in literature. I won't say overdone because I'm not entirely sure an incredibly important message like that can be overdone, especially when done well, but it's certainly not breaking any new literary ground. On the other hand, it's something you don't see often in the fantasy genre at all. That's sort of interesting in contrast, and says a lot about the fantasy genre in general.
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Jun 18, 2011 10:51
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Though it's kind of off-topic, the president of Harvard (a Civil War historian) wrote a really informative piece last month on how literature has enabled war.
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Jun 18, 2011 18:49
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I picture the world as being roughly analogous to our own world during the Renaissance. The North is Scotland and Ireland, the Union is England and France, Styria is Italy, the Old Empire is Byzantium, and Gurkhul is generally North Africa and the Middle East. I'm sure this was intentional. In my head, Jezal and the officers of the Union dress like the Three Musketeers. Southerners include people with skin tones ranging from ebony to sandy. As for the Shanka, for some reason with the pig nose and fur I could never get the picture of that monster from the Honey Combs cereal commercials from when I was a kid out of my head, even though I know they were intended to be goblins or hobgoblins. This guy:  Okay, I guess my memory lied to me. He doesn't have a pig nose. Still, they pretty much look like your classic goblins I think.
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Jun 22, 2011 09:09
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Bummey posted:The books were better. v They are separate mediums and you can enjoy one, the other, or both. It's not mutually exclusive. A movie with fantastic acting and direction can be absolutely better than a well-written novel.
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Aug 15, 2011 00:57
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v Movies just can't give you the same experience as a good book.
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Sep 13, 2011 05:34
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(BSC spoilers)DarkCrawler posted:Bayaz doesn't seem to hold them under any sort of thrall either, so I think Shenkt didn't as much break free from him as opposed to just getting into a huge disagreement with him I think it's implied that the 'disagreement' stems from the whole being forced to become an Eater in the first place thing.
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Oct 10, 2011 16:29
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The Dogman is what I'd consider the only genuinely good person amongst the main characters. He pays for this by being constantly poo poo on by events throughout the series.
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Jan 21, 2012 00:31
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Grand Prize Winner posted:What? In The Heroes he becomes king of half the North!. Which he doesn't want and certainly isn't prepared for. He's a follower, not a leader, and is to his credit well aware of that from the get-go. Though you could argue that despite being a reluctant leader, he's actually a very good one. Also, the rump North is a Union puppet state, with all that entails.
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Jan 21, 2012 05:59
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That whole subplot did seem really weak. I barely remember any of it besides the cool fight at the end.
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Jan 26, 2012 05:51
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Kekekela posted:Lamb is Shenk, maybe? Wouldn't really make sense, since he basically took his place as the adviser to Monza at the end of BSC and is thus involved in ruling Styria. I doubt he'd go from there to being some 'mysterious step-father with bloody past.' Oh, and he already has a wife and kids. Logen seems possible, but I doubt he'll be brought back. Glad Cosca's back though. HeroOfTheRevolution fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Feb 12, 2012 |
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Feb 12, 2012 19:11
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Logen could be cowardly because he'd want to avoid fighting so the Bloody-Nine doesn't come out. Really it could be a completely new character. The Logen stuff is probably a fake-out.
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Feb 14, 2012 05:59
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The summary says 'step-father.'
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Feb 23, 2012 15:45
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Normal Adult Human posted:Whirrun reminded me of burnt face dog man from the GRRM books. He had this entire characterization of gaining revenge upon his elder brother but just died of fever in the middle of nowhere without any real goal or closure. He's not dead The Whirrun thing was cool because you expect legendary heroes in fantasy books to have plot armor and for the whole book he seems like an unstoppable force of nature like in a Dynasty Warriors game. Especially since he basically seems to take his own plot armor and destiny for granted. And then he goes down randomly in the whirl of battle to a nameless, faceless guy. That's what Abercrombie was going for there, though, which is why it wouldn't make any sense for the 'nameless, faceless guy' to be a major player.
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Mar 6, 2012 01:52
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Dogman's probably the only true 'good guy' in the series. For this he gets constantly poo poo on throughout. While this is an assumption, it seems to make sense. Shenkt is part of the second generation of Magi, along with guys like Sulfur, Mamun, and Ishri. I'm assuming after the original group, Magi could only be made through eating human flesh. That second generation is almost on par with the lesser of the original Magi, while later 'generations' are the foot soldier Eaters who get beaten by Northmen and regular type guy. Additionally, Shenkt is the husband of Vitari and the father of her children. HeroOfTheRevolution fucked around with this message at 22:11 on May 17, 2012 |
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May 17, 2012 22:08
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Some authors are more blatant about their real-world analogues than others, but any fantasy author is going to have it to a certain extent. It's tough to avoid it. Abercrombie is just a little more blatant about it than others. The North is Scotland and Vikingish, the Union is Three Musketeers-era France, the Gurkish Empire is whatever Caliphate you so choose (probably the Ottomans), Styria is Renaissance Italy, the Old Empire is Byzantium. Abercrombie's setting is definitely his weakest aspect, but luckily it barely affects the novels anyways.
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Jun 5, 2012 20:21
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Shivers tells Black Dow to do his own work because he's a better man than Dow, which plays into his traits at the start of BSC.
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Jul 15, 2012 16:46
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Above Our Own posted:Bayaz went completely catonic from the strain after using magic to defeat a small band of mercenaries I think he was acting catatonic so no one understood his true power. In LAoK he annihilates a significant portion of an entire city and a vast number of super mage warriors.
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Aug 29, 2012 19:09
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Yeah... I guess if you go in assuming you wont like the book then you probably won't. The First Law works as a coherent trilogy but the first book is definitely set up without much payoff. This might be a valid argument against the series if you were making it before Before they are Hanged was published but you can go grab the next book online or at the library and get to the payoff. Also you're buying into the series as Abercrombie intended. The characters are supposed to come off as archetypes and the story as a classic generic fantasy genre story at first. HeroOfTheRevolution fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Dec 16, 2012 |
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Dec 16, 2012 01:45
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I don't know what Aeon Flux is besides the really bad Charlize Theron movie but I looked it up on Wiki and well uhquote:Graphic violence and sexuality, including fetishism and domination, are frequently depicted in Ĉon Flux. In the featurette Investigation: The History of Ĉon Flux (included on the 2005 DVD release), Peter Chung says the visual style was also influenced by the animated series Rugrats; Chung had worked on Rugrats prior to Ĉon Flux and had been extremely frustrated by the limitations of the characters. So if I'm reading this right, he was 'frustrated' that the Rugrats characters (toddlers) wouldn't let him explore S&M? That's, well, sort of weird.
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Jan 23, 2013 22:44
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Zeitgueist posted:Re: Malazan-chat. I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to Abercrombie fans. There's crossover, but they're different styles. Abercrombie is about the characters, Erickson is about the setting. I wouldn't recommend Malazan to anybody, even though I happen to enjoy it quite a bit despite its flaws. It's just not accessible to anyone beyond the most goony (or secretly goony) of us, which is also why I think its thread has the most weirdos of any fantasy series thread outside of ASOIAF. I would recommend GRRM, Abercrombie, Sanderson, and a couple authors with incomplete series/arcs (Rothfuss, Scott Lynch and Anthony Ryan) and pretty much require someone to finish all of those before subjecting someone to the labyrinth of Malazan. But most people I talk to got into fantasy through Game of Thrones or Wheel of Time, anyways.
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Mar 16, 2013 03:59
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:Gorst and Morveer are goon heroes because they are asperger's as gently caress. I love this because this guy's impossibly goon-stereotype post is three up from that: Space Pussy posted:Yeah, it's basically the Catholic Church vs Wall Street. gently caress em' both. Gorst is a brilliantly written character. I think Abercrombie does a great job writing awful people but at least making them appear likable, if just for a time.
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Apr 3, 2013 02:55
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Peztopiary posted:All the people Abercrombie writes about are objectively bad (or they get murdered before we get access to their no doubt horrific internal monologue.) Except the Dogman! And nothing good ever seems to happen to the Dogman.
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Jun 7, 2013 17:55
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