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Bussamove
Feb 25, 2006

Hondo82 posted:

Shenkt was working for himself and he knew who Monza was. Bayaz was his master that he left ( At the end encounter Yoru says "Our master" and Shenkt replies "Your master, I have none, anymore, remember? I told him I was done." ) and he kept Monza alive because he knew she would work against Bayaz' wishes. Khalul's agent, Ishri/East Wind, did want to ally with Monza but Monza wasnt having any of it. She's a free agent, Shenkt is a free agent. Like Yoru Sulfur he took to cannibalism for the power under Bayaz.

Shenktchat: When he shows up in Orso's palace during the final seige, he also says something along the lines of "Bayaz made Orso, and I break what he makes". It's made pretty clear that he's the opposite number to Yoru Sulfur at that point, being the apprentice that saw what Bayaz was doing and went against it rather than become complicit in a centuries-long squabble between two old men. I can't recall if he had any opinions on Khalul at the moment because my copy isn't handy, but I'm sure he's not too fond of him either. I'd love to see more of his character, it was a breath of fresh air to finally have someone who knew what was going on and was actively opposed to it, rather than being a willing lackey or making GBS threads themselves in terror at the thought of pissing off Bayaz. Or one of the other magi who are more or less indifferent to the matter.

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Bussamove
Feb 25, 2006

Let's be fair, he probably had a grudge against Logen too. Everyone in the north does.

Bussamove
Feb 25, 2006

Clinton1011 posted:

He had an assistant, when Bayaz goes into the house of The Maker to prove who he is Glokta asked him who lived there. He said in the end only 3, The Maker, Tolomei and The Maker's assistant. He says his name but I cant remember it and don't have the book with me to grab it. It always stood out to me because nothing is ever mentioned of this assistant again after that.

Wasn't it Bayaz himself? After he left Juvens to go learn from the Maker because he wanted more power, he became the Maker's assistant, yes? He didn't tell them it was him at the time because he was still putting on the show that he had been Juvens' loyal servant the whole time instead of a backstabbing powermonger.

Of course it's been a while since I read TFL so I could be wrong.

Bussamove
Feb 25, 2006

Hughmoris posted:

I always thought it was the middle or ring.

This way my assumption too. I can't remember if they ever specifically mention which one, but I always imagined it to be the middle one. Looking at the US cover for Red Country he seems to be missing that one, so that's what I'm going to keep going with.

Bussamove
Feb 25, 2006

Peztopiary posted:

They'll probably be more like arquebuses. So folks with swords still have a chance to mess your day up, as long as you miss that first time. Lets Abercrombie have cowboys and claymores which is pretty much the best way to do fantasy. The problem with Bayaz is he doesn't seem to have any ideas about what he wants civilization to look like. The Union is a completely re-active empire, the Gurkish are the people doing new and exciting things with science. Sure that changes in The Heroes awesome cannons! but it doesn't change the fact that the Union is stagnant.

That's because the things he does have nothing to do with bettering the civilization he made and everything to do with one-upping Khalul and proving that he's the best at everything he does. He even destroyed a good chunk of the Union's capital city just to prove he was more skilled than Glustrod and could actually use the Seed for what he intended to do. The Gurkish attacking just gave him an excuse to actually try it so he could "save" Adua. Despite what he says to make himself look beneficent, Bayaz doesn't give one single poo poo about who died in the process because he did it and that makes him better than you. Even the king is treated like a replaceable toy. In the end he probably doesn't even care if the Union crumbles, because it's just a means to an end. He has footholds in the North and is working on one in Styria, he could easily turn either one of those into another Union in a few hundred years time.

Bayaz doesn't believe in banking, he believes in Bayaz. Controlling the money is just another way of maintaining absolute control. Khalul uses religion and set himself up as a holy figure, Bayaz uses finance and established the oldest banking house in the Union.

Bussamove
Feb 25, 2006

FMguru posted:

On Bayaz:

The entirety of TFL and The Heroes being "The Bayaz Gets His Way Show Featuring Puny Mortals" really makes me hope that if/when Abercrombie returns to Styria that it isn't more of the same. Best Served Cold is probably my favorite of the novels because it shows that not everyone is cowed and pisses their pants when Bayaz is so much as mentioned, I would hate to see that all swept aside because he showed up and was smugly threatening to someone. On the other hand, seeing Bayaz/Shenkt interaction would be amazing given what was set up in BSC.

Bussamove
Feb 25, 2006

DarkCrawler posted:

Khalul actually has the nobler goal, even though his crimes are (arguably) worse. He wants to bring Bayaz to task for all his terrible actions. Like Bayaz he's willing to do anything to achieve this. Of course he might just be an rear end in a top hat too and doesn't give a poo poo about Juvens, and it's just continuation of their millenia long pissing match over who's the best.

The only indicator we've had that Khalul has any sort of noble goal is from his own Eaters, and I trust their opinion on the matter as much as I would trust Yoru's. That is, not at all. They're both portrayed as reprehensible people who will do anything to get the better of the other.

I hate to toss around words like evil when talking about these books. Labeling Bayaz (or Khalul) as "totally evil" is as silly as labeling anyone else in the novels "totally good" and misses the point of Abercrombie's themes entirely. I will toss around words like completely and utterly self-centered, egotistical, manipulative, and amoral because that's exactly what they both are. Khalul is an unknown, but through his interactions with the other Magi and the various things revealed about him there's no indication that Bayaz has ever been anything else. The immortality-distances-him argument doesn't work when he betrayed his master and threw the woman he supposedly loved from the House of the Maker when he was still a young man. It's made it worse, surely, but it wasn't the cause.

Bussamove
Feb 25, 2006

Above Our Own posted:

If a foreign power threatens to invade, Bayaz is there to manipulate and coerce his way into a Union victory. If plague or natural calamity threatens the safety of the Union, Bayaz is gonna be there whipping up some wizardry to keep his pawns in a usable condition. Sure he's only motivated by self interest, but it it's in his interest to keep things running smoothly and self interest is the most reliable motivator.

In this world, the Union is a pretty good place to live for the average individual.

Except he's done none of that. The only thing he did in the Gurkish invasion of Adua was finish his experiments with the Seed, and that was solely due to the fact that he wanted to prove he could. The Eaters were secondary and a little gently caress you to Khalul in the process. Even then, he arguably caused more damage than killing them prevented. Remember he leveled a sizable chunk of the city for purely vain purposes. Likewise, in The Heroes he only stepped in to strongarm Calder after the battle had already occurred and he saw an opportunity to gain the upper hand for himself. Ishri had Black Dow's ear, when he died Bayaz moved as quickly as he could to make sure he had Calder's. There was no investment in the Union or its well being there, just his own personal gains. His cannons were of absolutely no consequence for anything there. As for protecting them from plagues or natural disasters, the only "plague" ever shown is there because of Bayaz and his wizarding. The Union armies suffer the same hardships with weather, sickness, and poor conditions as any other army, the citizens most likely do as well. There is no gently caress to be given from Bayaz.

A nation locked in a perpetual war with another because the two godlings controlling them don't like each other is not a good place to live for the average person, especially when Bayaz realized that the Open Council had too much power and moved to quash it at the end of the trilogy. The entire nation exists solely to provide bodies to throw into the meat grinder against Khalul, it's hard to ignore that just because Bayaz keeps a semblance of order that's more like extreme stagnation and stratification.

Bussamove
Feb 25, 2006

Your Gay Uncle posted:

[Spoilers] although the Eaters seem to be incredibly tough, and we know Bayaz has no problem indulging in cannibalism. The Eaters seem to have to constantly be feeding to maintain their powers though, and we only see Bayaz eating someone once.

Wait, when does this happen? I could have sworn Bayaz specifically avoided doing anything like that because it helped him feel superior to everyone that did.

Bussamove
Feb 25, 2006

John Charity Spring posted:

I re-read The Heroes recently and both times I've read it, that scene at the end of the book didn't give me a cannibalism vibe at all (I was specifically looking out for it the second time, too). It seemed calculated to unsettle Calder, but that's all. I think Bayaz has no problem in putting eaters to use for his own ends, but I don't think he actually does it himself.

That's the impression I got as well. He's perfectly content to use Eaters, but since he doesn't actually practice it him self that still makes him better than the likes of Khalul. It's another layer of the fantastic hypocrisy and ego that is Bayaz.

Bussamove
Feb 25, 2006

Normal Adult Human posted:

Maybe he's chopping down a legion of dead men walking.

More accurate for the Bloody-Nine.

Bussamove
Feb 25, 2006

Jeffrey posted:

There's some implied but I don't remember any "on screen".

There's one scene that immediately pops to mind, but it is resolved very quickly and never really touched on again afterwards.

Bussamove
Feb 25, 2006

Above Our Own posted:

Yeah I guess it might be alluded to that some characters had been abused in the past or something, but IIRC there's no rape descriptions in the text or anything like that. If there were they weren't very memorable rapes.

And you should read them in order if you've got the time, it will enhance your appreciation of the character arcs and world development.

Reading them in order is definitely the way to go. You miss out on far too many nuances and subtle hints otherwise.

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Bussamove
Feb 25, 2006

Red Mundus posted:

Some series especially ones with many books in them have a few books you can safely skip.

In the Dresden Files thread occasionally people will recommend avoiding the first two as they pale greatly compared to the rest. Fool Moon in particular is one that is most often recommend to others to skip.

While I agree that Storm Front and Fool Moon are very weak compared to the rest of the series, I wouldn't tell someone who hadn't read them before to skip them, because they do lay down some groundwork for who the core recurring cast is and why they act the way they do. I just see telling someone to skip early, potentially weaker entries in a series as something that's going to hurt their experience with it. Plus, reading the author when they're not at their strongest helps you appreciate the point when they hit their stride all the more.

Though really anything that gets you to Dead Beat faster can't be all bad. I love that book. :allears:

UncleMonkey posted:

Aliz. That's actually who I was thinking about when I said Terez. I got momentarily mixed up. I did feel bad for Terez, but what happened with Aliz was really awful. I liked that Finree keeps coming back to it, that it isn't just forgotten.

I had somehow completely blocked that entire scene from my mind, which is weird because I just read The Heroes again recently. What a terrible situation that was in a novel full of terrible situations.

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