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Nenonen posted:Conscription. And Nationalism
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Oct 7, 2011 02:19
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:And Nationalism Artillery
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Oct 7, 2011 02:26
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Nenonen posted:Conscription. As an example, when the French limped back into Germany with about 12,000 men they looked beat, but in a surprising move, Napoleon began his 1813 campaign with more than 600,000 men again. No other nation before France at the time could sustain that kind of loss and come back. Now Napoleon squandered his opportunity to negotiate some kind of settlement at this point, and his army of 1813 was nowhere near as capable as the one that preceded it, but still, that's an impressive feat.
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Oct 7, 2011 02:45
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Ograbme posted:What were Napoleon's secrets to success? A clever gimmick, luck, balls, genius, or ??? Stocking and replenishing an army is one of the more expensive things in the books, the air conditioning costs for the American Army leaps into the millions, and that's just one small element of logistics. Going back to earlier times one importance of capturing towns was to loot it of supplies to replenish your supplies. Seasonal variations also limited when an army could effectively march as there would be less on hand to eat during winter. In the early 1800's a reward was offered for anyone who could discover a cheap way to preserve large amounts of food. The first form was an Appert Canning jar, by cooking food in the jar and sealing it in a vacuum so no air escapes the food essentially stays fresh for years. The mason jar in the 1850's was an improvement on the same principles, notably the screw top and a rubber seal that would shrink as it cooled. These jars were replaced by canisters of tin, as it's cheaper to roll out and cut than glass is. The Dutch were known to have a similar method of preserving smoked salmon in iron boxes but these weren't much different than the usual preservation of salting and smoking. Bayonets were the first can opener. Usually followed by shooting it open in frustration as the tin was quite thick. The benefits are enormous for an army, you are now able to quickly deliver meat and veg across a wide area without spoiling or having to cart around additional animals to feed and slaughter. Post Napoleonic wars the British Army took up the slack of refining canned goods. BogDew fucked around with this message at 06:54 on Oct 7, 2011 |
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Oct 7, 2011 03:29
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Flippycunt posted:Theres a youtube video where they test them, and yes they actually work way better than you'd think. The arrows get tangled up in them instead of hitting the dude. Yeah, they stop some, but of those that do get through most have lost the power to pierce the body armour.
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Oct 7, 2011 03:51
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WebDog posted:The mason jar in the 1850's was the forerunner. Is this a misuse of a word or typo? If it's one of those, then it's a cool fact. Otherwise, it's kind of pointless.
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Oct 7, 2011 03:59
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Zorak of Michigan posted:Anyone know how long it would take to analyze the trajectory of such a launch to verify that they weren't nuking Taiwan or Japan? Longer than it would take to volley off a dozen ICBMs in response. Which is why the US and USSR both abandoned that particular ridiculous idea 40 years ago. The DF-21D isn't just vaporware it's also a basically suicidal weapon. Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Oct 7, 2011 |
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Oct 7, 2011 04:12
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Longer than it would take to volley off a dozen ICBMs in response. Which is why the US and USSR both abandoned that particular ridiculous idea 40 years ago. The DF-21D isn't just vaporware it's also a basically suicidal weapon. Granted, it's not like they have a monopoly on retarded ideas.
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Oct 7, 2011 04:34
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wdarkk posted:Granted, it's not like they have a monopoly on retarded ideas. Occasionally though someone comes up with a really awesome retarded idea.
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Oct 7, 2011 05:02
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Oxford Comma posted:Speaking of samurai, I once saw a picture of a samurai who had a big sheet tied to his neck and waist. As he road, the sheet inflated and was supposed to deflect arrows. Was a sheet used like this, and was it effective? As mentioned it is called a horo, and while it did have certain defensive properties, it definitely had the result of the wearer sticking out. This is the reason why it was used by mounted messengers, so that friendly troops knew to quickly make way and the generals could easily see if a messenger was approaching. By using different colours on different messengers, you could even spot who the message came from easily. Another common wearer of a horo was bodyguard troops, who also liked to stick out.
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Oct 7, 2011 05:18
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The Indian Navy has operated an effective and useful carrier air arm for years, and have flown lots of sorties against the Pakistanis in their various wars. India is a much poorer/less well run country than China. You can't measure progress using the USN as a yardstick for everything.
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Oct 7, 2011 05:25
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Occasionally though someone comes up with a really awesome retarded idea. What the gently caress? Did they really just airdrop and launch an ICBM? Thats pretty amazing. \/ Varyag, its the same class as the one the Russians actually operate. It ain't no Nimitz class, but if it were operational, its not a shitbox. Saint Celestine fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Oct 7, 2011 |
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Oct 7, 2011 05:41
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Isn't the aircraft carrier that China is working on just some recommissioned Russian shitbox?
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Oct 7, 2011 05:48
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They just need it floating as a trainer for carrier operations. Doesn't need to be able to stand toe-to-toe against a Nimitz battle group or anything.
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Oct 7, 2011 06:13
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Xiahou Dun posted:Is this a misuse of a word or typo?
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Oct 7, 2011 06:55
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Throatwarbler posted:The Indian Navy has operated an effective and useful carrier air arm for years, and have flown lots of sorties against the Pakistanis in their various wars. India is a much poorer/less well run country than China. You can't measure progress using the USN as a yardstick for everything. India and China's carrier needs are different, though. China already has the capability to win a fight for Taiwan and the South China Sea - they've got hundreds of anti-ship ballistic missiles on the mainland to win the fight with a USN carrier group there. The reason they are trying to develop a carrier arm is because they are looking to the East. They are reliant on oil coming from the Middle East through the Indian Ocean, and particularly on the Straights of Malacca being open to their shipping. That's out from under the umbrella of their land-based assets. So they need a carrier arm that can sail away from shore and win a fight with whoever they are fighting. That's why I think the USN is a reasonable comparison - they're trying to fulfill a mission that India's Navy just doesn't have on its plate, and that the USN does. And it's one that they haven't done since the Sung dynasty, so it's reasonable to expect that they couldn't do it right now.
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Oct 7, 2011 08:08
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How much naval tradition did India inherit from the UK?
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Oct 7, 2011 08:38
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gohuskies posted:India and China's carrier needs are different, though. China already has the capability to win a fight for Taiwan and the South China Sea - they've got hundreds of anti-ship ballistic missiles on the mainland to win the fight with a USN carrier group there. The reason they are trying to develop a carrier arm is because they are looking to the East. They are reliant on oil coming from the Middle East through the Indian Ocean, and particularly on the Straights of Malacca being open to their shipping. That's out from under the umbrella of their land-based assets. So they need a carrier arm that can sail away from shore and win a fight with whoever they are fighting. That's why I think the USN is a reasonable comparison - they're trying to fulfill a mission that India's Navy just doesn't have on its plate, and that the USN does. And it's one that they haven't done since the Sung dynasty, so it's reasonable to expect that they couldn't do it right now. The Indians do all of those things. Warships have uses other than "pitched battle with the USN on the high seas".
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Oct 7, 2011 08:40
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Throatwarbler posted:The Indians do all of those things. Warships have uses other than "pitched battle with the USN on the high seas". The Indians could not hold the Straights of Malacca against a USN carrier battle group. The Chinese want to be able to. It's pretty simple. And warships do things other than pitched battle on the high seas, but that is what China wants its fleet to be able to do, at some point in the future, and that's why they are starting a carrier arm and why that arm has a long ways to go.
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Oct 7, 2011 08:46
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gohuskies posted:The Indians could not hold the Straights of Malacca against a USN carrier battle group. The Chinese want to be able to. It's pretty simple. And warships do things other than pitched battle on the high seas, but that is what China wants its fleet to be able to do, at some point in the future, and that's why they are starting a carrier arm and why that arm has a long ways to go. The Americans were actively arming the Pakistanis and supplying them by sea in 1971. http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/History/1971War/Games.html quote:INS Vikrant was on patrol north of Andaman Islands blocking the approaches to Chittagong when, on December 15th, late in the evening, the BBC announced the entry of the 'Big-E' task force in the Bay of Bengal. The broadcast added that the U.S. task force was to make for Chittagong to evacuate the stranded American citizens. This was a bolt from the blue. I conjured up a situation of a direct confrontation. I waited for instructions from the Naval Headquarters but none arrived. It was later at night that I decided to proceed south anyway, to intercept the 'Big-E' before she could enter the war zone. It was near midnight when the Midshipman on Watch approached me on the bridge and sought permission to ask a question. I nodded, and he said, "Sir, what would you do when you sight the Big-E?" This question was no doubt uppermost on my mind, but without any hesitation I replied, "You do not have to worry, young man. America is a friendly country, so I would wish the captain of the 'Big E' a good morning and ask him what I could do for him." The midshipman was not convinced and added, "What if the 'Big-E' opened fire against us?" I replied, "I have been educated in the Naval War College, and I understand the American psychology well. If the 'Big-E' attacks us, Abraham Lincoln would be turning in his grave."
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Oct 7, 2011 08:48
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:One thing to note is that countries don't always stop trading when they are at war. Logic dictates they should, but history shows otherwise. So you think if the Chinese and US start skirmishing that Chinese ships will be allowed to land in South Korea, Japan, and the US? For China and the US even a slapfight war would be utterly awful, it would just be worse for China. Add in the lack of popular support in China and you have a grade A clusterfuck. gohuskies posted:The Indians could not hold the Straights of Malacca against a USN carrier battle group. The Chinese want to be able to. It's pretty simple. China wants to have capacities, however the straights of Malacca would be literally the worst possible place they could ever send a ship. Indonesia and Malaysia have known racial tensions between ethnic Malay muslims and ethnic Chinese, Nobody in the ASEAN region likes China except maybe Myanmar, and the tactical advantages of getting yourself surrounded in a space that is small and has massive traffic of non military vessels.
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Oct 7, 2011 10:06
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uinfuirudo posted:China wants to have capacities, however the straights of Malacca would be literally the worst possible place they could ever send a ship. Strait of Malacca.  There's also a plan to build a canal across the Kra isthmus in Thailand with Chinese funding. This would not only shorten the oil route and make it safe from pirates, but also allow supertankers to use it, as the Malacca Strait is too shallow for the big 'uns. If the Chinese are willing to dish out 20-30 billion dollars for it, then presumably they would also want to be able to protect their investment in the case of an emergency, like if there was a revolution in Thailand. But that's okay, Suez crisis has always been the coolest cold war gently caress up to me.
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Oct 7, 2011 12:10
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gohuskies posted:India and China's carrier needs are different, though. China already has the capability to win a fight for Taiwan and the South China Sea - they've got hundreds of anti-ship ballistic missiles on the mainland to win the fight with a USN carrier group there. I'm sorry but the ASBM thing is a pet peeve of mine. China doesn't have hundreds of any sort of ballistic missile let alone the fabled DF-21D that nobody has actually seen tested. Edit: My arguments are more convincing when they're properly spelled. Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Oct 7, 2011 |
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Oct 7, 2011 12:33
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Rent-A-Cop posted:I'm sorry but the ASBM thing is a pet peeve of mine. I should have noted that they are mostly cruise missiles, not ballistic missiles. But still, they can do plenty of damage. The point is that China has a pretty reasonable ability to win a fight near its coast, and it wants to extend that ability through a carrier arm to allow it to protect its shipping routes through the Indian Ocean and East Indies.
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Oct 7, 2011 18:11
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What were the NATO/WP plans for Berlin in case of a full out war?
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Oct 7, 2011 20:59
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gohuskies posted:Cross of Iron is a movie set on the East Front, but it is more about interpersonal beef in the chain of command and the unit than the actual history of the war. It is a Sam Peckinpah and those familiar with his work will know that he has a pretty brutal and sometimes overly convoluted style. It's pretty good though, and they take a lot of effort into making the combat scenes historically accurate. I don't imagine it is on Netflix but if you have a local video rental place that might carry such movies, it is probably worth a watch. Tarantino said it was his #1 inspiration for Inglourious Basterds, and it was voted the greatest film ever made by something called Cinemag, so those ought to count for something. Turns out the entire movie is actually on Youtube, if watching it in poor quality is your thing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuuWs8CE0zU
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Oct 7, 2011 22:05
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Nenonen posted:What were the NATO/WP plans for Berlin in case of a full out war?
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Oct 7, 2011 23:35
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Nenonen posted:What were the NATO/WP plans for Berlin in case of a full out war? The citizens of West Berlin and the Berlin Brigade become martyrs to the cause. "Remember West Berlin!" becomes the rallying cry for NATO troops on the North German Plain and Fulda Gap.
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Oct 8, 2011 01:07
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To take Orwell's title, it seems like Britain would definitely become Airstrip One for American planes. That is if nuclear war didn't break out. Which in itself is a good question, I mean it seems entirely possible some incident could escalate into war between NATO and Warsaw, but does either side really have the balls to launch a nuclear weapon, even a smaller tactical one, because everyone knows the end result of just one being launched.
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Oct 8, 2011 03:54
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What was Plan B if Operation Overlord failed, and the Allies got pushed back into the sea? Was it, "Welp, we'll try again next year" or something else?
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Oct 8, 2011 04:47
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Much more in resources devoted to the Italian campaign followed by a two prong assualt around Switzerland?
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Oct 8, 2011 05:02
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Amused to Death posted:Much more in resources devoted to the Italian campaign followed by a two prong assualt around Switzerland? Either that, or "let's see what can kill more Germans: Russians or fire."
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Oct 8, 2011 06:08
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Oxford Comma posted:What was Plan B if Operation Overlord failed, and the Allies got pushed back into the sea? Was it, "Welp, we'll try again next year" or something else? However, if they're pushed back into the sea after taking a reasonable area of France, that'd be a whole different situation. The loss of material and lives might put the allies in a more defensively minded mood. But at that point, it doesn't matter. The pressure the offensive took off the Red Army, as well as the damage it caused, should be enough to let - well, not really let, because it'd have happened anyway - the Soviet Union continue their push and would probably end with Europe being liberated by the Russians.
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Oct 8, 2011 12:31
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Yes, as the hardest Normandy battles were taking place, the Soviets were just launching Bagration. If Germany wasn't out of the game by August 1945, then it becomes a possibility that USA would have dropped the first A bomb on a German city rather than Japan.
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Oct 8, 2011 12:51
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Also Stalin would have been pissed if the long awaited second front had to be abandoned.
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Oct 8, 2011 14:26
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Also Stalin would have been pissed if the long awaited second front had to be abandoned. And what would he have done about it, set up puppet governments all across Eastern Europe? Actually he might just have fully occupied Germany, which would not have been a good thing.
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Oct 8, 2011 14:31
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R. Mute posted:
"Liberated". It would've been Red Alert all over again.
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Oct 8, 2011 15:35
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Also Stalin would have been pissed if the long awaited second front had to be abandoned. Boiled Water posted:"Liberated". It would've been Red Alert all over again.
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Oct 8, 2011 16:31
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Oxford Comma posted:What was Plan B if Operation Overlord failed, and the Allies got pushed back into the sea? Was it, "Welp, we'll try again next year" or something else? Operation Dragoon (the invasion of Vichy France from the south) would have been launched to divert German resources away from Normandy. Instead it was launched about two months later to divert German resources away from Paris (of the 300,000 Axis troops in Vichy France about half were killed or captured, so it was quite successful). I think there was also a planned invasion of Yugoslavia but I can't remember what it was called.
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Oct 8, 2011 17:09
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Churchill desperately wanted an invasion of the Balkans because he was loving stupid.
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Oct 8, 2011 17:52
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