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This thread seems to have slowed down a lot, but I figure I need to kick myself out of lurking if I'm going to improve- for several reasons and in several ways, actually. So: I was told for the better part of my life that I was either tone deaf or just couldn't sing. This turned out to be, as it usually is, the sort of absentmindedly cruel thing people say to kids without realizing how completely they'll internalize it. A lot of kids are told poo poo like this! I am now twenty-five and recognize rationally that this is the case, but I also happen to have grown up into an anxiously vibrating ball of exceptionally resilient neuroses, so there's kind of a disconnect between the things that I understand and accept... and the things my paranoia has aggressively hoarded and refuses to relinquish because you're all just humouring me and I know it.  (I am, in fact, seeing someone about my anxiety problems.)My best friend is a classically-trained singer who's been involved in our local music scene for over a decade. She's about to release her first solo album! She is also my strongest supporter and the person who most reliably kicks me (lovingly) in the rear end to do something with my music. It is completely unreasonable and absolutely unfair to compare myself to her. I do it anyway! (But I'm trying not to.) Basically, the gist of it is this: I have next to no vocal training or instrumental knowledge and completely insane expectations of myself regardless. I started singing and composing lyrics before I knew how to write, mostly as a kind of cathartic behaviour, and now I claim to do it mostly out of compulsion, which is actually mostly true, but omits the fact that I really do love to sing but am hesitant to admit it because I'm still constantly on the defensive and admitting to investment still feels like inviting cruelty. I haven't been on a stage in close to a decade. I've never been on a stage as the central performer. I would like to change that! I want to improve and I want to smack myself even further out of my defensive shell, which means, of course, that I'm going to have to pony up some material (two covers and one original, all acapella, forgive me):    For some reason I added the same sort of weird ending to both of the covers. It's as much a mystery to me as it is to anyone else. (Also, it should be noted that I have no idea how genres work or where the hell my music falls into them, so assume my answer to any question pertaining to genres is going to be "Blues...? Ja... zz...?" along with me looking nervously bewildered.) A few things: I have a strong suspicion that a lot of my issues have to do with confidence. I record at home and find it difficult to sing at a natural volume when my roommates are home, even though one is half deaf and the other has lived with me for five years and certifiably gives less than a tenth of a singular gently caress. How do I not feel like I am imposing myself on people by making them listen to me? We may never know. Related: I'm not sure if my problem with high notes is primarily a confidence issue as well or more a training issue- inevitably, as with most things, it's gotta have parts of both, but I feel like knowing where one stops would help a lot with figuring out where the other begins. Also, I spend a lot of time wondering if my lack of familiarity with instrumental music and music theory in general is handicapping me really badly- the people I've talked to about it seem to believe it's something that's useful but not necessarily integral, but I find myself worrying that I'm running afoul of the usual acappella problems, re: pitch and pacing, without realizing it.
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Jan 20, 2015 22:00
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(I'm a longtime musician but beginning singer, so I don't necessarily have a clue what I'm talking about.) I identify with your post quite a bit--lack of confidence, neuroses, childhood, blah blah. I've recently started taking lessons, and my instructor's been harping on me for a lot of things that I trace back to being a nervous person. I find it difficult to 'loosen up,' for example, and I carry a ton of tension in my jaw. Getting better as a singer, I think, involves being more aware of your body (as an instrument and in general) than you might be used to. I'm not at all New Agey or whatever, but I think "mindfulness" is a good word for it. It's also made me realize that I should work on more than the bog standard musical stuff--for example, I'm doing some talk therapy to help me unwind some, so, hey, same boat there. I have exactly the same thoughts about humoring and all of that.  I really like the tone of your voice! You do need to work on timing (do you practice with a metronome?) and there's some pitchiness, but you'd think you're much worse off than you are from the way you write about yourself. Getting a teacher for even a bit will help you extend your range and learn to properly support yourself when you sing. Practicing the right stuff and paying attention to technique really make a big difference. It's never bad to bone up on theory. Even a little can go a long way! What's stopping you? I also hope that a real singing dynamo shows up and drops some knowledge. Yay for thread activity.
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Jan 21, 2015 20:37
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Rasselas posted:You need to relax more. You're off-key in several places, but it follows the pattern of making mistakes at the points where you must've felt the most insecure. In the very beginning and at the refrain or something. Basically, you need more practice, that's the only thing that'll help. Completely forgot to bookmark the thread, just saw your response. Thanks for the comments. Now I'm left wondering whether I'm usually better and I was just nervous for the recording, or if I'm a regular mess  I'll try and see about recording more often, I'll see if that helps.
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Jan 21, 2015 21:29
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Insanite posted:(I'm a longtime musician but beginning singer, so I don't necessarily have a clue what I'm talking about.) Thanks for your response, man! It's nice to see that I'm not the only person working through these issues while pursuing music, honestly. Re: beginning singer- hey, it doesn't take a ton of training to recognize when something sounds kind of wrong. I think it's mostly just the terminology that escapes people- you're fine. I've been told I have good tone and, in general, pretty decent pitch, but I know I get pitchy with high notes and wander around notes a little otherwise, so you're really not saying anything unexpected. I don't practice with a metronome, but I've considered before that I absolutely should! I think the whole lack of instrumental thing is contributing to my issues concerning a lack of a base beat to follow, and a metronome would probably help with that considerably. I carry a ton of tension in my jaw as well, considering that I have chronic bruxism and massively overdeveloped jaw muscles- I never really considered that as an issue I had to think about! Is there anything specific there that I need to be watching out for, as far as you know? Because the overdevelopment of my muscles means that there's legitimately only so much I can actually do about them at any time, mindfulness or no. Also, getting a teacher is unfortunately not in the cards for me at the moment unless I can find someone very cheap and flexible with their scheduling, but it's something I've given thought to before and absolutely will pursue when I can. Just gotta get there, right? (All that's stopping me from learning theory is the way my eyes slowly glaze over when reading most of these resources, but I've picked up my guitar yet again and am doing my best to practice scales and whatnot, so maybe that'll lend me some kinesthetic understanding of some of these principles.)
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Jan 22, 2015 01:23
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Finger Wagon posted:Thanks for your response, man! It's nice to see that I'm not the only person working through these issues while pursuing music, honestly. I'm not rightly sure on the specifics of tension. I don't have my notes on me, but as far as I recall, it's not *only* a matter of having a tense jaw--it's just that it feeds into an overall system of tension that hurts your ability to perform. I consciously have to drop my jaw a bunch, as I spend so much else of my time clenching/grinding. I know that I feel better when I've done a proper warmup and am relaxed, so I guess there's something to it--I don't how how much is physical and how much is mental, though. I'm sure if someone more learned checks in, they could fill in some details. There's also all sorts of stuff I see Googling around, but YMMV. Well, there you go. Sing those scales you're practicing with guitar, too. With a metronome. 
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Jan 22, 2015 02:04
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Finger Wagon posted:This thread seems to have slowed down a lot, but I figure I need to kick myself out of lurking if I'm going to improve- for several reasons and in several ways, actually. The positive: you have good pop tone and a good sensibility for pop phrasing. There's not much to write about this, in contrast to the critique below, but you should be very pleased with where you're at right now The criticism: your singing in the examples provided is unfortunately pretty tone deaf - not in the sense that you're a bad singer, but in the sense that you aren't hearing what the notes should be. I don't know if you were recording yourself with a backing track playing over headphones or what, but you certainly do wander around pitch and don't see to have a good idea of the backing chord you're singing to, or even what the notes of the melody are. It's not that they're pitchy, it's just that there are a ton of wrong notes that don't match the melody of the song you're singing. You need to be hearing and internalizing the key and chord changes as well as the rhythm behind what you're singing even when you're unaccompanied. It'll help you become a better musician and a much better singer even when you are being accompanied. Timing isn't even relevant without singing to something - if you're unaccompanied you can do whatever you like. That said, you don't seem to have a very solid internal metronome or sense of rhythm driving your phrasing, and it really shows on the Low Places example where you sing fast but without any consistency. Try counting along with your examples and you'll see that from measure to measure there's no underlying form. Using a metronome or backing track can help with this, but you really need to be tapping your foot (at least internally) and remembering the pulse of the music at all times - something that isn't coming through in these examples. I will say that I don't think you need a teacher unless you want to change the tone of your voice dramatically. You don't sound like you have issues with tension, and you have good native control over your voice with what sounds like solid breath support. The only thing I would be concerned about is making sure you can control the flutter in your voice (particularly on the Fly Me To The Moon recording). It sounds like it's being driven by your breath support dropping off a little rather than through natural vibrato and fluctuates a little too quickly to sound pleasant (in my opinion). Essentially you've got typical singer problems. I'd suggest you pick up an instrument and learn to count rhythm and practice scales. This will help you internalize the basic elements of music which you seem to be missing. Guitar is good, piano is even better. Even if you can't play and sing at the same time, being able to play the correct chord and then sing to it will help you practice melodies and stick to the right pitch when learning songs. Find a slowed down version of one of the songs you know and sing along with it making sure to match pitch and rhythm accurately. Then do the same with a karaoke version, making sure you can hear the harmony between what you're singing and the backing music. In my opinion you don't need much singing help at all, which is great because learning to control your voice is very abstract and can require tons of trial and error. What you do need is to work on your general musicianship, something that is easy to practice and very attainable. Good luck!
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Jan 22, 2015 23:58
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I would second everything being said about tone and such. The thing is, on your samples you change the melodies from the original a lot. All good if you know your doing it and do it intentionally. I don't have that sense from your samples, in part because we don't ever get to hear the melody as it was written/recorded. If you are going to make such changes it can be a good idea to let the listener here the unadorned, unaltered melody at some point. See if you can do that. My own sense from listening is that you aren't really aware that you aren't singing the melody. It's interesting because in terms of relative pitch, when disregarding the melody, you stay fairly consistent for periods throughout the song, so you are hearing something. Practice interval singing. Turn singing intervals into singing melodies. Oh... I would say I am fairly neurotic as a singer... above and beyond what I have managed in life. Singing is a pretty interesting thing and quite different than playing musical instruments, in my opinion. It is very vulnerable in a different way. It isn't that you can't be vulnerable playing an instrument, there is just something particular about the voice as an instrument. This is also a very cool thing it seems to me. I wouldn't put too much attention on that unless it is part of the reason for the singing in the first place. It possible that a lot of wonderful art is just these things expressed through one medium or another.
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Jan 23, 2015 00:26
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AriTheDog posted:The positive: you have good pop tone and a good sensibility for pop phrasing. There's not much to write about this, in contrast to the critique below, but you should be very pleased with where you're at right now Thank you so much! I had to slap myself a bit to stop me from immediately taking all of this as the worst thing ever, drop everything and give up immediately, but it's probably a good sign that that only took me a minute and now I can step back and see what you're saying for what it is- and thank you a lot for listening and commenting! Yeah, all of this sounds very relevant- I've actually been on and off with guitar, and I think I sort of knew this intrinsically, which is why I keep picking up the goddamn awful thing again and again despite what it does to my poor fingers. God help me, I will get there if it loving kills me. I'd absolutely love to practice with and even teach myself piano, but I don't have access to one despite my best efforts. The flutter in my voice has a lot to do with anxiety. That's one thing I feel I can say confidently! I don't want to get into the habit of singing very slightly drunk, but it literally disappears once I am... but then my breath support vanishes once I drink a little more, much to literally no one's surprise. Guess I better learn Tom Waits' "The Piano Has Been Drinking" as a finisher for my first few open mics, eh? But yeah, when I chill the gently caress out, it's negligible- I still wander around notes and am a little garbage in general, but I don't flutter like I do when I'm anxious. On that note: yeah, you're absolutely on point about my recordings- I don't record with a backing track or metronome, so I really have no idea what the notes should be! I just sort of... guess at them and hope it sounds alright. I should maybe... absolutely... not continue doing that, to be honest. It's not doing me any favours. From now on, I'll make sure I record to a backing track, or, in terms of my originals, a metronome, since that'll hopefully help. Thank you so, so much for all your advice! @Sogol: I won't claim to change the melodies intentionally- at best, it's 30% intentional, which does not reflect well on me. I'll take your advice to heart. I want to get better, and I respect the voice as an instrument that needs to be maintained, strengthened, and trained. I grew up essentially scatting because my neurology didn't support the kind of recall that allows a kid to maintain lyrical rhythm, and I think it might still be my strongest point as a result. I want to get better. I want to be able to rely on myself, and clearly I've got a ways to go before I can do that! Edit: Oh, and it might be bear mentioning that when I get nervous (which is pretty much whenever I'm singing in front of someone or recording) I tend to speed up and lose whatever semblance of rhythm I had, just like a teenager giving a class presentation, and I feel kind of like that might have a massive impact on the impression I make when I sing. I mean, obviously I still need to work on my rhythm and timing, that goes without question, but does anybody have any advice on how to kick myself in the rear end and slow the gently caress down? (Extra Edit: Someone tell The Mystery Date I've been listening to Mack The Knife on repeat all evening and that they're absolutely an inspiration. God loving drat.) Finger Wagon fucked around with this message at 09:46 on Jan 23, 2015 |
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Jan 23, 2015 09:17
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Finger Wagon posted:(Extra Edit: Someone tell The Mystery Date I've been listening to Mack The Knife on repeat all evening and that they're absolutely an inspiration. God loving drat.)  Your singing actually reminds me a lot of myself several years ago. Ari is right on in that you need to really pay attention to, learn, and follow the melody of the song you are singing for the most part. I used to do the same thing you do and kind of make things up as I went along, thinking it sounded jazzy. Really, it was just messy and awkward. Pitch and rhythm really are about 90% of good singing. Once you gain control over those two aspects, then you can start to jazz things up more and play around. I am not great at advice, so listen to Ari. I'm fairly sure he's one of the ones I heeded most when I was getting on the right path. You've got really sweet tone, and I think you have it in you to learn the control you need, so I look forward to hearing your progress.
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Jan 23, 2015 17:55
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The Mystery Date posted:
Ack, hello! (I might really like your voice. Like, a lot. Maybe.) I'll admit to being kind of surprised by the comparison you drew between where I'm at now and where you used to be- I feel like you were miles and miles ahead of me when you started posting in this thread, but I went back and now that I'm listening to your old recordings, it's occurred to me that you do have a point. Maybe that's why I liked seeing your vocal progression so much (gives me hope!). It also reminds me of why people still respond positively to my singing despite all my issues- I tend to forget that you can sound, in fact, halfway-decent, even enjoyable, to someone with no musical background but still not sound anywhere close to as good as you rightly could be. Still think you were better than me even back then, but I do hear the issues Ari and Sogol brought up about my singing in your old recordings and am going through the advice folks gave to you in the hopes of jostling something loose in my head. Well, actually, I think I might just be putting off accepting that I am really just going to have to practice over and over and over, no getting around it, which is something I will do if I have to (I'm gonna have to) but will absolutely hate doing because I'm the sort of intuitively bright piece of poo poo who usually learns quickly and effortlessly and never learned to actually apply myself as a result. So yeah, that's almost certainly what I'm doing. Let me mellow in denial for a bit- the going through old advice thing can't exactly hurt me, anyway. On a different note, I'm curious what you mean about me having a "sweet" tone, though- did you mean that figuratively or as an actual descriptor? Because while I'm vaguely familiar with people referring to tone/timbre with words like warm or bright or dark, that in particular is not something I've ever heard and wouldn't really have associated with myself, being that it has been made abundantly clear to me over the years that I have an unusually low voice for someone so short and small (the one time I met my high school's vocal teacher was at an audition and she got incredibly excited and started babbling about me being a tenor, whatever that means) and I'd always heard lower voices called dark or warm. I guess I'm just curious what you meant because I'm starting to become aware that my tone is generally what carries me into the "tentatively listenable" range of ability, and is absolutely the only reason I can listen to my own recordings without flinching my way through them. Finger Wagon fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Jan 23, 2015 |
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Jan 23, 2015 22:44
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Finger Wagon posted:Well, actually, I think I might just be putting off accepting that I am really just going to have to practice over and over and over, no getting around it, which is something I will do if I have to (I'm gonna have to) but will absolutely hate doing because I'm the sort of intuitively bright piece of poo poo who usually learns quickly and effortlessly and never learned to actually apply myself as a result. So yeah, that's almost certainly what I'm doing. Let me mellow in denial for a bit- the going through old advice thing can't exactly hurt me, anyway. quote:On a different note, I'm curious what you mean about me having a "sweet" tone, though- did you mean that figuratively or as an actual descriptor? Because while I'm vaguely familiar with people referring to tone/timbre with words like warm or bright or dark, that in particular is not something I've ever heard and wouldn't really have associated with myself, being that it has been made abundantly clear to me over the years that I have an unusually low voice for someone so short and small (the one time I met my high school's vocal teacher was at an audition and she got incredibly excited and started babbling about me being a tenor, whatever that means) and I'd always heard lower voices called dark or warm. I guess I'm just curious what you meant because I'm starting to become aware that my tone is generally what carries me into the "tentatively listenable" range of ability, and is absolutely the only reason I can listen to my own recordings without flinching my way through them.
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Jan 23, 2015 23:12
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The Mystery Date posted:I'm the same way, preferring to half-rear end my way through things. Don't worry, you can still do this, you just have to pay attention to how you sound and focus on little improvements while you're half-assing so you eventually get better. Haha, good to know- I'm really going to have to invest in a metronome, so I think I'll start there for now. The Mystery Date posted:Oops, I meant "sweet" in the colloquial sense in the same way as "cool" or "neat-o". If I were to describe your tone in vague musical terms I would say "smooth" or "silky" I guess. It's nice, and you won't really have to work on it once you get everything else down. Oh, oops! Haha, sorry- I considered that, but I wasn't sure, so I figured I'd ask. (I am a piece of poo poo who immediately said "neat-one", like "knee-tone" after reading this, how did I make it to adulthood) But thank you for humouring my weird, misguided question! "Your Tone In Vague Musical Terms" sounds like a thread title. Edit: Well, I tried recording to a backing track and it seems to help my timing a lot when I can actually figure out what the timing is supposed to be. (Getting the impression this sort of loose jazz was a bad starting point.) Also it distracts me from focusing on breath support and undermines what little good I do myself when I'm paying attention! Somebody sure hasn't gotten that down to an unconscious art yet, clearly. (It's me.) Finger Wagon fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Jan 24, 2015 |
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Jan 24, 2015 00:36
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Could you guys recommend a good mic I can use with my pc? I want to follow Rasselas's recommendation and start recording myself more often so I can actually use them for improving instead of sounding unsure. Any critiques/tips on my singing (panicked sounding as it is ) would be appreciated; Rasselas already commented but every bit helps.I started taking lessons on a whim, but I'unsure as gently caress when it comes to me singing. I'm... not sure if my voice is outright bad, if I'm just lacking practise or if I'm trying to sing way outside of my range and kneecapping myself.
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Jan 25, 2015 00:13
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I have always wanted to sing on my songs but felt self conscious about it, especially lyrics writing. I finally just said gently caress it and recorded a couple songs. I know that my voice is kinda weak and needs definite improvement. MY question is how can I improve it fro where it is now, sans lessons as i am broke. I feel more confident when i play and sing but my recording setup does not accommodate very well for that. https://soundcloud.com/advilsmith/walk-alone
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Jan 25, 2015 13:44
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Edmond Dantes posted:Could you guys recommend a good mic I can use with my pc? I want to follow Rasselas's recommendation and start recording myself more often so I can actually use them for improving instead of sounding unsure. What Mic you use doesn't really matter, use an sm58 like everyone else in the world and connect it via a cheap audio interface.
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Jan 25, 2015 15:48
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I'll second the SM58 recommendation, I like the shotgun version. AdvilSmith, it's hard to critique folk style singing without having an idea about what/who you're trying to sound like. Finger Wagon posted:Haha, good to know- I'm really going to have to invest in a metronome, so I think I'll start there for now. Mystery Date and Finger Wagon, I'm glad you guys have found something helpful in my long critical posts. The best thing a singer (or musician, artist, craftsperson, whatever) can do is listen critically to themselves, hear problems, and be open to change, which it sounds like you both are. I don't think loose jazz is a bad place to start at all, but it's important to know how the song goes in a straightforward to-the-melody-and-rhythm way before going off the rails. Jazz is all about rules, knowing them, and bending them. An interesting experiment is to attempt to not sing the right notes, but to sing the right rhythm, or even just to freely improvise but to a locked beat. You may find that it sounds pretty good even though it's formless, and it shows how important rhythm is and how much it implies form. Conversely, the same exercise done with correct melody and incorrect, inconsistent rhythm will sound pretty terrible in most cases. Obviously there is room for Rubato playing but even in there the term implies robbing from one measure and giving to the next to keep the form of a phrase intact. The Piano Has Been Drinking specifically uses Rubato to great effect but if you count the measures there's a strong, consistent 4/4 beat holding everything together. Despite it being kind of pricey, I love my DB-88 (earlier version of the DB-90) metronome because it can be used to provide a drone, a simple beat, and it can also be set to count out loud in a robot lady voice for you. It's extremely helpful if you're a lazy counter (I certainly am). I'd strongly recommend it, although I'm sure there are smartphone apps that can do the same thing... I think? As far as the flutter in your voice goes, it's a typical thing, and you're right that confidence or a lack thereof is what will drive it. Try to sustain throughout your singing, keeping solid breath support but just lessening it a little when you're trying to taper off a note. I spent today's cello lesson wimping out on the ends of long notes because I lacked conviction in my playing, and I've certainly done the same while singing. I'm a big proponent of karaoke as singing practice. Most singers suffer from lacking confidence, and there's nothing like having a couple drinks and listening to a bunch of truly terrible singers to give you the confidence to really sing out.
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Jan 27, 2015 02:09
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What are some good low-end pedal style vocal processors you guys can recommend? Mostly just something I can plug the guitar into along with the mic and it'll help keep the vocals on target. I play in incredibly smokey bars and end up drinking a lot so my voice gets flattened. I don't think the audience really notices or cares but I heard a recording of my last show and I'm sure a device would iron out that problem.
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Feb 4, 2015 11:48
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Finger Wagon, if it helps your confidence this random internet person thinks you've got a great voice. Love the timbre. I sort of got that you weren't singing these so strictly so I wasn't so concerned with the altered melodies or the rhythm. The only particular thing I felt that needed addressing was the aggressive vibrato. Otherwise, I feel that everything else will likely fall in place over time with practice and good direction.
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Feb 7, 2015 07:09
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This might be a stupid question, but how do singers who live in apartments practice? Or rather, where? I live in an apartment, and sounds carry quite easily in it. I practice with my electric guitar without a problem, since I can use headphones. Now I signed up for a beginner's singing course, but I have no idea how I can rehearse without pissing off my neighbours. Especially since I have a long commute and can usually only find time for practice late in the evenings. Any good ideas?
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Feb 10, 2015 22:47
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...Sing in the car?
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Feb 11, 2015 00:08
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Hawkgirl posted:...Sing in the car? I have no car and I commute by train, so that might not be appreciated either.
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Feb 11, 2015 06:10
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lilljonas posted:This might be a stupid question, but how do singers who live in apartments practice? Or rather, where? I live with roommates and frequently just wait to have the house to myself to practice, which obviously isn't an option in an apartment building, but I have been known to do things like sing while I'm vacuuming because the noise gives me a sort of auditory screen- the problem with that, of course, is that you can't necessarily hear yourself (which is also part of the point, haha). On the other hand, I have found that singing while I can't hear myself perfectly makes me focus on what I'm doing with my throat and the way the vibrations of my voice feel, so there actually might be some usefulness to the habit, maybe? Don't quote me on that- I have no idea if it's true at all. But yeah, I've always felt like it both helped me relax and provided me with a base vibration and pitch (the sound of the vacuum) to imitate and then work with. Mind you, I can very clearly remember matching and harmonizing with the hum of the engine on my hour-long bus rides to and from elementary school, so it is very possible I'm just a huge drat weirdo who should be ignored.
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Feb 11, 2015 19:11
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Finger Wagon posted:Mind you, I can very clearly remember matching and harmonizing with the hum of the engine on my hour-long bus rides to and from elementary school, so it is very possible I'm just a huge drat weirdo who should be ignored. I used to work at a place that had tons balloons, and now I work in a warehouse. At the old job I would hum into the balloons and match their pitch, and now I'll whistle or hum the pitch of all the random noises of forklift engines, horns, scanners, and even the semi horns outside. I don't know if it's beneficial, but it's a way to pass the time. When I'm feeling more adventurous I'll do lip trills with triads or pentachords. I've gotten a few looks for it though, haha.
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Feb 11, 2015 22:03
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Sing in the shower. Sing any time between the hours of 9am and like 9pm in your apartment without care (but maybe a little shame).
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Feb 12, 2015 00:06
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When I was in an apartment and had to practice guitar my closet was my best friend.
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Feb 12, 2015 17:33
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AriTheDog posted:Mystery Date and Finger Wagon, I'm glad you guys have found something helpful in my long critical posts. The best thing a singer (or musician, artist, craftsperson, whatever) can do is listen critically to themselves, hear problems, and be open to change, which it sounds like you both are. Your posts are actually incredibly helpful! As soon as I got over the unfortunately unavoidable sulking part of being a Sensitive Artiste receiving valuable critique, I actually felt way better for having somewhere to start- not knowing what you're doing wrong and subsequently what to start working on improving is very frustrating. AriTheDog posted:An interesting experiment is to attempt to not sing the right notes, but to sing the right rhythm, or even just to freely improvise but to a locked beat. You may find that it sounds pretty good even though it's formless, and it shows how important rhythm is and how much it implies form. Conversely, the same exercise done with correct melody and incorrect, inconsistent rhythm will sound pretty terrible in most cases. Obviously there is room for Rubato playing but even in there the term implies robbing from one measure and giving to the next to keep the form of a phrase intact. The Piano Has Been Drinking specifically uses Rubato to great effect but if you count the measures there's a strong, consistent 4/4 beat holding everything together. Okay, so I haven't had the time or finances (I was seriously broke for a bit there) to get a metronome yet, but I've been using an online one to experiment and the results have been kind of interesting- on one hand, I find that it's actually really helping me slow down and keep to a more consistent rhythm, which is great, but on the other, I suddenly understand what people mean when they talk about counting beats. For the most part, I seem to be doing relatively alright keeping time just instinctively, but I'm acutely aware of the ticking and definitely concerned that I'm overshooting pauses and the like, and it seems a little like that issue is only worsened by me worrying about whether or not I'm doing it, ahha. For example, after attempting to sing Tom Waits' Green Grass to the original track, I realized that trying to match his lyrical cadence exactly (and sing clean while listening to his gritty Waitsian voice) was screwing me up royally, so I tried it again over the metronome and found that while it was way, way better, I was having issues wiith counting between verses- in the verses themselves, for the most part, the pauses between lines seem to be fairly consistent, but I feel like I'd sort of lose that from one verse to the next. (Of course, this might have a little to do with momentary forgetting the words and having to take an extra half-second to check them before continuing- I think I was unconsciously adopting extended pause as the timing.) The pauses between the lines already seem huge to me because I'm accustomed to sort of... nervously filling silence by rushing into the next line without pausing for more than a breath, so I don't know if I actually was leaving them too long or if it's just that they're very long for me. I did try recording it twice, and while the second recording was a little better than the first, there's still an extra long pause between the second-last verse and the last because I'm so accustomed to there being a musical break there in the original that it still took me an extra second to remember that wasn't going to be a thing in an acapella recording, especially since I can't whistle. I kept the uneven pauses intact, because I feel like fixing them would negate the whole point of the exercise by way of misrepresenting what I did versus what I feel like I should have been doing:  Also, I wasn't precisely sure what you meant by improvising to a locked beat, so I just sort of experimented over the metronome and the results were weird as hell, haha. I sort of attempted to make a base beat and then improvised over it and it sounds almost eerie to me, for some reason. I think it might be that my timing was very slightly out of sync at times but perfectly aligned in others, so it kind of wandered between sort of listenable and sounding subtly wrong, and/or it might have had something to do with the fact that part of my improvisation was the same pitch as my base beat, which sounds really strange in a way I didn't anticipate and can't explain. Just tried it again, to slightly better effect, but I think I'm overambitious in my attempts to create multiple tracks, because they all tend to sound fine individually, but I just feel like they're really... odd together. Oh well. Anyway, by a fixed beat, what exactly did you mean? AriTheDog posted:As far as the flutter in your voice goes, it's a typical thing, and you're right that confidence or a lack thereof is what will drive it. Try to sustain throughout your singing, keeping solid breath support but just lessening it a little when you're trying to taper off a note. I spent today's cello lesson wimping out on the ends of long notes because I lacked conviction in my playing, and I've certainly done the same while singing. I'm a big proponent of karaoke as singing practice. Most singers suffer from lacking confidence, and there's nothing like having a couple drinks and listening to a bunch of truly terrible singers to give you the confidence to really sing out. Fuoco posted:Finger Wagon, if it helps your confidence this random internet person thinks you've got a great voice. Love the timbre. Grouping these together because I'm not entirely certain if you're referring to my vibrato or the above-mentioned flutter, Fuoco! (Ari, karaoke really has helped me open up, but we actually have a lot of monstrously talented karaoke singers in my city, apparently, and also one of the guys who runs all the local karaoke has decided I'm only allowed to sing jazz ever and also has a slightly uncomfortable fascination with my voice, so it's a bit complicated.) My vibrato is unintentional and mostly unconscious, so if it's a bit aggressive, that's either an anxiety thing or just something I haven't registered as a problem yet- most of the time, I don't control my vibrato. Should I be, and how? Also, thank you so much for listening! I'm doing my best and it's nice to have support and encouragement. Edit: It abruptly occurs to me that I'm actually not entirely certain what's flutter and what's vibrato, so the two might not mutually exclusive- taking a guess at it, I feel like the body of my notes should be firmer (no fluttering) while the end is typically allowed to have a bit of vibrato? I seem to recall hearing that before, but I might be incorrect. Double-Edit: I just tried recording one of my originals over the metronome and holy hell, I never realized how much I tend to rush from line to line and how much it affected the stability of my notes, this is nuts. (I also didn't realized how much I've been relying on having a relatively nice timbre and an expressive voice to offset my timing problems.) Finger Wagon fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Feb 13, 2015 |
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Feb 13, 2015 21:16
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Finger Wagon posted:I'm not entirely certain if you're referring to my vibrato or the above-mentioned flutter, Fuoco! Finger Wagon posted:Edit: It abruptly occurs to me that I'm actually not entirely certain what's flutter and what's vibrato, so the two might not mutually exclusive- taking a guess at it, I feel like the body of my notes should be firmer (no fluttering) while the end is typically allowed to have a bit of vibrato? I seem to recall hearing that before, but I might be incorrect. I'm pretty sure we're all referring to the same thing with fluttering/vibrato, it's just that vibrato is the more technical term for it. Regarding it's use, there's no 'should' as such because it's more of a stylistic choice you'd make based on the note, song and the kind of singing you're going for. What you've described would be how it's typically applied though.
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Feb 17, 2015 10:27
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Fuoco posted:I'm pretty sure we're all referring to the same thing with fluttering/vibrato, it's just that vibrato is the more technical term for it. Ah, okay, that makes a lot of sense! I'll try to look out for that. Also, I just bought a metronome and am totally delighted by the fact that it counts for me, I'm not going to lie. Edit: Oh wow, this already seems like it might just turn out to be the greatest investment I've made in improving my singing, thank you so much for suggesting it, Insanite and AriTheDog! (I just sang an original and abruptly understood everything about the timing I was going for when I wrote it, this is nuts.) Finger Wagon fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Feb 19, 2015 |
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Feb 19, 2015 22:15
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Hi Finger Wagon, I'm glad you've found my feedback helpful. The metronome and counting problems (particularly rests) are a singer thing. If you're going to count anything, count rests. It's good that you're recognizing it, though. I think part of the problem you're having, especially as pertains to following the metronome, is that the songs you're choosing are written by, or at least popularized by singers like Frank Sinatra, Billie Holiday, and Tom Waits, all of whom play with rhythms in an extreme way. I'd actually suggest learning straighter versions of the songs, or choosing some songs to practice that are much less jazzy (rhythmically). Alternately, only sing to backing tracks and do whatever sounds good to you. Solo singing is extremely hard, and really requires you to be able to hear the chord changes and backing rhythm in your head to do a good job. What I meant by improvising to a locked beat was just to take something like this and just improvise and sing random notes or even sounds in time, no multitracking involved although that sounds like it would get hilarious results. As long as you imply some kind of rhythmic motion, it really won't sound bad - atonal maybe, but not "wrong". While not atonal, the Tom Waits song Step Right Up is a good example of this type of composition. This isn't going to teach you anything beyond the value of staying in time, though, something which you seem to be getting at this point judging by the metronome I hear ticking away behind your recording of Green Grass. When I say flutter, I don't mean vibrato. I'm talking about a thing that sounds kind of like vibrato that happens when diaphragmatic breath support trails off at the end of lines, or suddenly pushes. It's particularly apparent in the recording of "All Of Me". Vibrato (and tone in general) should ideally be a choice. You're lucky, because you have a nice natural tone so you don't really have to make a choice, but If you're supported, vibrato should be happening on all of the vowels naturally. You should have to tense in order to stop it. What you're doing (that I'm calling fluttering) can be used as a stylistic effect, but that's not what's happening when it occurs at the end of every line and before most breaths. On more listening, it sounds like you're not inhaling deeply enough, you have some level of aspiration (air escaping that isn't being used to produce sound), and that you're singing just from your chest. This isn't to say that half-voice, which is a common technique used in jazz singing, is bad. It's an excellent technique, but it's important to develop your ability to sustain, and to have a crescendo, sustained forte, and decrescendo on a long line, or to be able to make the stylistic choice to combine two lines without taking a breath. For a good example of sustained vibrato that isn't operatic, check out Minnie's Lament by the late Minnie Riperton. You should be able to sing those long vibrato notes, and generally if you're singing a vowel you're going to want to have vibrato going. For contrast, here's Olívia Byington singing in a very natural, not-tense style with extremely-minimal vibrato. Check out track four, Jardim da Infância in particular for the long, held notes sung at half voice. quote:Edit: It abruptly occurs to me that I'm actually not entirely certain what's flutter and what's vibrato, so the two might not mutually exclusive- taking a guess at it, I feel like the body of my notes should be firmer (no fluttering) while the end is typically allowed to have a bit of vibrato? I seem to recall hearing that before, but I might be incorrect. What I'm saying is that you should be able to sustain vibrato through your entire phrase if you want to. I think that for you to have a warmer, more beautiful tone, you can't rely on that trailing off flutter as much as you do. That said, the singers you seem to like are very much natural singers in that they're very much untrained, so despite all of the advice I'm giving you on tone I really think that if you were to simply get better at singing the right notes at the right time you'd be 95% of the way there.
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Feb 20, 2015 23:12
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What's the best way to get into alternative vocal styles? Screaming/vocal fry/etc. I'm used to hoarsely shouting punk stuff but I'd like to be able to do that without hurting my voice, and I'd also like to experiment with other types of singing.
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Feb 24, 2015 18:43
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Okay. I'll do it. I've uploaded two files to Soundcloud. Link: https://soundcloud.com/raceperson Both are unfiltered mic->inteface->DAW, no effects, acapella dangles sung from memory. Please forgive the complete lack of editing. Well, that's not true, I took some dead air out and moved some things together. I want to completely obliterate nasal tones. Beyond that, I always am trying to increase range, right now I am working towards being able to bang out high register notes without so much punch, I would love some help on that. Intonation, as always, needs work. Any critique is appreciated! Thank you, for taking a minute. Free youtube people really, REALLY know their poo poo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5hS7eukUbQ lilljonas posted:This might be a stupid question, but how do singers who live in apartments practice? Or rather, where? That is awful! I am constantly worrying about making too much noise, I loving boom when I'm going. I would suggest checking this guy's 4 part warm up, focus on lip-rolling, get it RIGHT! You should feel it after 30 seconds of constant action, somewhere deep on the core. Way quieter, and you get so much power boost from it it is rediculous. I'm not associated with this dude or anything, I just know when I hear good advice, and this man is the loving bomb when it comes to free vocal coaching. I did the warm ups until they were a piece of cake, then started singing my songs full lip-roll. I would wager it would wear a lot of people out. He deserves a shout out, this man Eric Arceneaux. For sharing this knowledge. Finger Wagon posted:Mind you, I can very clearly remember matching and harmonizing with the hum of the engine on my hour-long bus rides to and from elementary school, so it is very possible I'm just a huge drat weirdo who should be ignored. Heh, I remember doing the same thing! Sir Bedevere fucked around with this message at 04:51 on Mar 15, 2015 |
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Mar 15, 2015 03:39
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I need some advice. I've been trying to find a vocalist via craiglist for my home recording project since 2012. I have about 8 songs that I want to do but have only been able to do one so far. I've talked to 20+ singers and they all stop replying before I can do a session. Here's my ad for reference: http://omaha.craigslist.org/muc/4932781168.html I've been easy to work with I think. What am I doing wrong? Do I need to make an offer for payment before the session? I don't want to get burned if the person is difficult in some way.
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Mar 23, 2015 00:07
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When you're talking to the singers, does pay come up? Do you make them name a number first, or do you offer a certain amount? Your ad looks fine to me except for the vague pay. If you just throw out a number that you're willing to pay, I think you'll probably get past the initial contact. It's Craigslist, unfortunately I don't think you have much of a recourse if someone is a difficult person to record with. Maybe try a session over Skype for smaller $$ before booking a studio or whatever?
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Mar 23, 2015 00:24
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Hello. Ive been singing playing and writing songs for a while now, but i find myself having trouble singing the high notes in my with clarity - could you guys listen to one of them (the only one ive recorded so far) and give me some tips as to what i am doing wrong, - the last part in the song i originally intended to be one octave higher, but i just couldnt get it to sound well enough for me to actually record it like that. i still think my voice sounds weak in many parts of the song, especially in the end on the "where" and "who" so yeah, here is the song. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo_HxEvCBx8
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Mar 24, 2015 18:14
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Frenzik posted:Hello. Ive been singing playing and writing songs for a while now, but i find myself having trouble singing the high notes in my with clarity - could you guys listen to one of them (the only one ive recorded so far) and give me some tips as to what i am doing wrong, - the last part in the song i originally intended to be one octave higher, but i just couldnt get it to sound well enough for me to actually record it like that. i still think my voice sounds weak in many parts of the song, especially in the end on the "where" and "who" so yeah, here is the song. Try going into falsetto in the parts where you're straining to hit the higher notes. Practice smoothly sliding between your chest voice and your head voice (it should resonate in your nose).
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Mar 27, 2015 08:05
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So I'm an instrumentalist making an attempt at starting to sing, but I need some help. I find that if i sing softly my voice will crack and not sound good at all, whereas if I really project and make my voice go deeper I get a nice booming sound. The problem is I'm trying to sing a lot old blues/bluegrass/country songs that have that "whiskey soaked, 3-pack a day smoker since I was born" edge and tone to it, does anyone have tips to achieve that? Think John Fogerty, Brent Mydland, Gregg Allman, etc.
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Apr 3, 2015 18:11
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Kvlt! posted:that "whiskey soaked, 3-pack a day smoker since I was born" edge and tone to it, does anyone have tips to achieve that? Sounds like a fairly obvious regimen to me. But seriously, I don't think there's a way to force that sound without hurting your voice.
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Apr 3, 2015 21:36
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cebrail posted:Sounds like a fairly obvious regimen to me. True. My voice is naturally gruff so I get a little bit of it, but not to the degree that I want. Oh well, guess I'll just roll with what I got. Thanks!
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Apr 3, 2015 21:51
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Sir Bedevere posted:Okay. I'll do it. I've uploaded two files to Soundcloud. Thanks for sharing this youtube guy, this dude does a good job of making you visualize what is good technique and what isn't.
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Apr 8, 2015 01:22
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In this sheet for Number of the Beast, the third last tone is written as a C6, but when I look at other places on the internet discussing Bruce's range, like here, they write his highest note(in this song), as the A5 scream he does after the intro. What gives?
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Apr 13, 2015 22:40
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