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GamingOdor
Jun 8, 2001
The stench of chips.

Roger_Mudd posted:

Hot drat, I love me some IzzyFnStradlin!

I like to imagine that he isn't a troll and that somewhere there is some bi-polar angry guy furiously pounding on his keyboard.

The beauty of these kinds of trolls is that it is entirely plausible to meet this person on your first day of class. Even my section had an outspoken sperger (my diagnosis) who infuriated all of my professors within the first week. I think law school attracts people who want to express their awesome views in front of a bunch of other people.

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Sanhedrin
Mar 29, 2010


No one has mentioned the All Things Considered group interview with GULC 3Ls about the job market: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/...oryId=127041058

billion dollar bitch
Jul 20, 2005

To drink and fight.
To fuck all night.


Sanhedrin posted:

No one has mentioned the All Things Considered group interview with GULC 3Ls about the job market: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/...oryId=127041058

Honestly, at this point I feel like we already all get the message. I am just going to stick my head in the sand and not listen to all this depressing crap, because it's really too late now.

Mattavist
May 24, 2003



Wow what a hard hitting look at the state of the legal profession, 5 T1 students who all have jobs.

7StoryFall
Nov 16, 2003


diospadre posted:

Wow what a hard hitting look at the state of the legal profession, 5 T1 students who all have jobs.

I don't know if "running" for a state legislature or "leaning" toward hanging up a shingle count as jobs.

e: It would have been helpful to know what their relative ranks were. If they were near the bottom of their class, I doubt that even in the boom years, it was likely they would land biglaw jobs.

7StoryFall fucked around with this message at May 23, 2010 around 18:32

evilweasel
Aug 24, 2002


Every soup ladled to the hungry, every blanket draped over the cold signifies, in the final sense, a theft from my gigantic paycheck.

diospadre posted:

Wow what a hard hitting look at the state of the legal profession, 5 T1 students who all have jobs.

I think two of them have an actual job.

scribe jones
Sep 17, 2008

One of the key problems in the analysis of this puzzling book is to be able to differentiate a real language from meaningless writing.

evilweasel posted:

I think two of them have an actual job.

40% employment rate pretty good imo

Kumo
Jul 31, 2004



Sanhedrin posted:

the All Things Considered group interview with GULC 3Ls about the job market

I heard it in my car on Friday, and I had to roll down the windows to let out the choking waves of entitlement and self-pity.

Studying for a practice MBE test tomorrow. This isn't law, it's algebra.

Sanhedrin
Mar 29, 2010


I agree. They sounded like asses and they didn't stress the debt.

_areaman
Oct 28, 2009



billion dollar bitch posted:

Honestly, at this point I feel like we already all get the message. I am just going to stick my head in the sand and not listen to all this depressing crap, because it's really too late now.

Here's my school of hard knocks folder for when I want to scare people

Back to square one: After 60 job applications, honor student back home in Missoula
Graduate School in the Humanities: Just Don't Go - Advice - The Chronicle of Higher Education
Layoff Victims Among Pulitzer Honorees - Mixed Media - Portfolio.com
Home Boy: A blog about what happens when a jobless 27 year old law school grad is forced to move back home with mom, dad, and his two sisters
Job offers dwindle for MBA and law school grads - Sacramento Business, Housing Market News | Sacramento Bee
Finding A Job Is Hard For Even The Most Educated : NPR
How I Joined Teach for America—and Got Sued for $20 Million by Joshua Kaplowitz, City Journal Winter 2003
Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com
As Law Firms Respond to Crisis, 21% of Law Students Regret Choice - News - ABA Journal
Attorney at Blah The temp life without a J.D.: menial labor, rear end in a top hat bosses, $10 an hour. The temp life with a J.D.: menial labor, rear end in a top hat bosses, $35 an hour.

semicolonsrock
Aug 26, 2009

chugga chugga chugga

Business posted:

You're supposed to report all grades taken from all post-secondary schools to LSAC, so it's really irrelevant. Congrats on Harvard! Network like a motherfucker and you could easily land a cooler job than biglaw or whatever.

Ah, well, that makes things easy. I'd really like to be a judge, which I realize is even more of a pipe dream than being a successful lawyer, but oh wells.

billion dollar bitch
Jul 20, 2005

To drink and fight.
To fuck all night.


_areaman posted:

Here's my school of hard knocks folder for when I want to scare people

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5_NJmEn8Tw

Nero
Oct 15, 2003


I start work tomorrow, random anonymous strangers on the internet! Wish me luck! BLOOD AND THUNDER

BigHead
Jul 25, 2003
Huh?

I just got done talking to my cousin, who is the CFO's second-in-command to a nosebleed firm. He consults the summer associate program. Rather, he consultED on the summer associate program before they canceled their entire summer associate program.

He agreed with me on the following points:

a) Anyone not in T1 should drop out.
b) Anyone who does not want to work in rural Alaska public sector (rural Alaska has an x% public sector cost of living stipend) and wants to work in public sector should drop out.
c) Anyone who graduates without a job offer may as well not waste time on the bar exam because he doesn't know of a single private firm hiring outside of summer associate programs. I added that I don't know a single (of the very few I know) public sector positions open to recent graduates who haven't clerked.
d) Anyone between bottom T1 and T14 in the lower 50% should drop out.
e) He's not even considering Harvard grads. Edit: I meant Harvard 2Ls. Neither.

Also, my BarBri class chose today to announce a change in the class schedule. I start tomorrow at 8am instead of 6pm, with the same 9 hours of work to do, which I was going to do tomorrow morning. God I hate(d) law school.

BigHead fucked around with this message at May 24, 2010 around 03:14

nm
Jan 28, 2008

"I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

BigHead posted:

c) Anyone who graduates without a job offer may as well not waste time on the bar exam because he doesn't know of a single private firm hiring outside of summer associate programs. I added that I don't know a single (of the very few I know) public sector positions open to recent graduates who haven't clerked.
d) Anyone between bottom T1 and T14 in the lower 50% should drop out.
I did both of these (I think, with the second never did the math)
Graduated last year have a job.
Be prepared to work for free for a bit, maybe longer next year.

Seriously, life is not over if you pass the bar and have no job IF you have the ability to work for free at a PD/DA/county atty for ~6mo. Working in poo poo law for 6 months may tank your resume. Sitting around until you get a job will hurt. Working in a PD/DA/county attorney (even for free) is a good thing on your resume because you get real experience. And these offices need labor, they just can't afford to pay you. they'll give you good work too, you'll have more jury trials in 6 months than the managing partner at your civil firm.

If you can't afford to work for free for a decent period though, hope you get into yale, went to a T14 and did extremely well, or take the FSOT. Working doc review will kill you.

----
Also, 1Ls becoming 2Ls this summer, in August focus on mid-law. They're coming back. Local larger mid-firm (100-150 lawyers) I know a lot of people in is having an good year (they hired 13 3Ls last year). Companies are ditching biglaw for midlaw because they charge lower rates and do just as good work. These companies are also more likely to show you loyalty (not syaing they will, just more likely) as it is harder to lay-off Fred two doors down who just had a kid than 20 people in our LA office, 15 people at our Seattle Office, etc. You'll still make 6 figure or near.
What's funny is that as T1 grads here bitch about unemployment, this firm and a number like them would have loved to have you. (No, they didn't want your TTT rear end though) People just don't notice them. Also, the only real way into these firms is to go through a 2L program (or have 3-5 years of quality experience), so you gotta start early.

(The above does not mean you should go to lawschool unless you want to and can work for free or get into yale)

nm fucked around with this message at May 24, 2010 around 03:32

entris
Oct 22, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


GULC Grading Policy posted:

In Fall 2009, the faculty voted to make a change to the recommended grading curve for first-year and upper level examination courses – the new curve is below. In so doing, the faculty also established a grade of A+ to be recorded on official law school transcripts in recognition of truly extraordinary academic performance in a law school class. Because of this high standard, the A+ is not to be routinely awarded – even the best exam or paper in a class might not receive an A+. Please carefully consider whether any A+ grades that you award meet the truly extraordinary academic performance standard.

Got my spring grades today. Got an A+ in my advanced wealth transfer tax course. I was the only person to get that grade in the class, and the professors are adjuncts who work at Venable and Baker Hostetler. I am walking on air right now.

entris fucked around with this message at May 24, 2010 around 03:18

nm
Jan 28, 2008

"I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

entris posted:

Got my spring grades today. Got an A+ in my advanced wealth transfer tax course. I was the only person to get that grade in the class, and the professors are adjuncts who work at Venable and Baker Hostetler. I am walking on air right now.
What kind of stupid law school gives A+s?
(I wish I could have gotten A+s)

sigmachiev
Dec 31, 2007

Fighting blood excels

entris posted:

Got my spring grades today. Got an A+ in my advanced wealth transfer tax course. I was the only person to get that grade in the class, and the professors are adjuncts who work at Venable and Baker Hostetler. I am walking on air right now.

Congrats buddy!

CaptainScraps
Jan 31, 2003

Oh no kitties! Please don't fight!

nm posted:

Seriously, life is not over if you pass the bar and have no job IF you have the ability to work for free at a PD/DA/county atty for ~6mo. Working in poo poo law for 6 months may tank your resume. Sitting around until you get a job will hurt. Working in a PD/DA/county attorney (even for free) is a good thing on your resume because you get real experience. And these offices need labor, they just can't afford to pay you. they'll give you good work too, you'll have more jury trials in 6 months than the managing partner at your civil firm.

What qualifies as poo poo law?

nm
Jan 28, 2008

"I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

CaptainScraps posted:

What qualifies as poo poo law?
Doc review, working for lovely firms (the bets example in CA is the contract public defender firms), working in "private practice" which has very few clients or anything more complex than a simple will or basic contract, doc review, etc

yes I did say doc review twice.

TheMadMilkman
Dec 10, 2007


nm posted:

yes I did say doc review twice.

Having done temp doc review, I can definitively say that it is the definition of poo poo law.

Glowing Red Sign
Oct 26, 2008


Just locked down a summer position at the Los Angeles City Attorney's Office. It was promised to me in February if I didn't get the other position I applied for. Finally got her to follow through on it.

Applebee123
Oct 9, 2007


I think the problem with doc review is you are doomed to not find anything better, at least with small law firms you might actually pick up on whatever area of law you are practicing and be able to move firms or go solo. You can't go solo in doc review and there aren't any better paying jobs in it either. You aren't even learning anything in doc review.

nm
Jan 28, 2008

"I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

subjectnamehere posted:

Just locked down a summer position at the Los Angeles City Attorney's Office. It was promised to me in February if I didn't get the other position I applied for. Finally got her to follow through on it.
Criminal or civil?

Applebee123 posted:

I think the problem with doc review is you are doomed to not find anything better, at least with small law firms you might actually pick up on whatever area of law you are practicing and be able to move firms or go solo. You can't go solo in doc review and there aren't any better paying jobs in it either. You aren't even learning anything in doc review.
This is a big part. Also stigma.

Incredulous Red
Mar 25, 2008



So, speaking of think like a lawyer, I watched Kick rear end last night, and mentally started adding up the murders the little girl committed. LAW SCHOOL HAS ROBBED ME OF MY ABILITY TO ENJOY WANTON VIOLENCE.

subjectnamehere posted:

Just locked down a summer position at the Los Angeles City Attorney's Office. It was promised to me in February if I didn't get the other position I applied for. Finally got her to follow through on it.

See you there brosef. I'm starting 6/1

Glowing Red Sign
Oct 26, 2008


Incredulous Red posted:


See you there brosef. I'm starting 6/1
Sweet, which department? I start 6/16 - Soonest I could get a fingerprint appointment.

nm posted:

Criminal or civil?

Academy of Justice - the training division for the City Attorney's Office.

Glowing Red Sign fucked around with this message at May 24, 2010 around 06:49

Incredulous Red
Mar 25, 2008



subjectnamehere posted:

Sweet, which department? I start 6/16 - Soonest I could get a fingerprint appointment.

Got PMs?

Glowing Red Sign
Oct 26, 2008


Incredulous Red posted:

Got PMs?

Afraid not. My IM is in my profile, though.

Macnigore
Aug 9, 2008


...

Macnigore fucked around with this message at May 20, 2013 around 08:24

Solomon Grundy
Feb 10, 2007

Born on a Monday

Macnigore posted:

Hi,

I passed the bar in France in 2009. It's a little different of the US system since after you pass you still have to study in a school for 1,5 years before you can become a lawyer.

During that period you are supposed to do 3 different internships. I am trying to find an internship in a Paris based American law firm and have to submit a cover letter in English.

Could you please help me, I have already drafted something and am wondering if any of you could correct errors, or offer suggestions regarding the meaning of some sentences if you think it'd be clearer.

Thanks in advance.

The cover letter: http://www.mediafire.com/?4tgm12mg5zy

I am contacting you in an effort to secure an internship in tax law, starting in January of 2011. I recently passed the bar exam in Paris, and I have started my training in the EFB Paris.

I have studied tax law at every level of my education. I received my undergraduate degree from the Cergy-Pontoise university, where I began taking tax law courses. I studied for my Master's Degree at La Sorbonne University (Master 2 de Droit des Affaires et Fiscalité). I now have an extensive understanding of corporate French and International tax matters. I have had the occasion to meet the Paris [Law firm] team during a breakfast at your offices. I was impressed by your very welcoming and friendly attitude despite the workload inherent to working in a law firm like yours.

I regard [Law firm] as a prestigious international law firm, and I would be excited to work for you. In joining your team as an intern I aim to develop my skills and enjoy a stimulating work environment. My previous internships taught me the fundamental importance of both teamwork and attention to detail. Open and flexible, I aspire to fit in quickly and easily in the teams I join.

I have made every effort to be conversant in English. I practice English daily, and I have traveled numerous times to the United States. My current internship at Ernst & Young Paris has required intensive English communication, since most of the firm's clients are not French. Therefore I am practiced in legal research, writing and speaking in English. I understand the importance of a clear and practical answer to the legal questions submitted to me.

I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for your consideration,

Filthy French snail-eater.




BTW - is the firm going to know what EFB is? Because I don't.

Macnigore
Aug 9, 2008


Thanks a lot solomon and yes they will know what EFB means since its the only place in Paris where you study to become a lawyer. Its a monopoly.

It means Ecole de Formation des Barreaux de Paris (Bar school of Paris)

Ps: I see you've changed a lot of things, I really thought it'd be okay. What was your reaction when you read the original cover letter ? Like do I really seem unable to speak english or is it alright ?

Macnigore fucked around with this message at May 24, 2010 around 11:23

builds character
Jan 16, 2008

Keep at it.

evilweasel posted:

I've got a friend who got a partner mentor in a field they'd hate: does that mean they're likely to end up in that part of the firm this summer? This firm has a pretty small summer class this year, if it matters.

No. It just makes it easier to end up there because they'll have more contact with that partner and thus more opportunity for that partner to say "I like X and want them to work for me."

evilweasel posted:

No, I fully believe you and I'm sure it's important, what I gathered from what they were saying is that doing a lovely job on something was going to hurt you more than turning something down.

This is true. Do not ever ever ever ever ever ever ever do a lovely job on something. There's also definitely something to the NY-Chicago (or NY-anywhere else) divide.

HooKars posted:

Don't think anyone can really say since all firms are different. We got to choose which groups we rotated through during the summer at my firm. Unless things have changed drastically since I was a summer, he shouldn't be stuck in one area for the entire summer though he may rotate through.

Here's my advice: If you're rotating through several different departments and there's one you're pretty sure is the area of law you want to practice in, do an extra spectacular job in that department and get to know them - better than anyone else. Keep going to lunches or getting coffee or talking them up at events even after you rotate. In the end, your preference as to placement is secondary to which department wants you, so you want to be sure that the department you want to be in is willing to fight for you more than any other department. Don't do a lovely job in other departments but save your stand out moments for the department you're aiming at or it could backfire on you.

This is also true, but in this climate I'd be leery of not doing your very best for everything just because having a job in a lovely department is better than nothing. Sorry you got screwed HooKars.

Solomon Grundy posted:

Re: Paris Tax Law Intership

Dear Mr/Ms. Contact Person,

I am contacting you to be considered for the January 2011 tax law internship in your Paris office. I have passed the Paris bar [does Paris have a separate bar? I care where you're admitted, not where you sat for the bar] and am training in tax at the EFB Paris.

I would be an excellent fit for this position because of my extensive understanding of French and international corporate tax matters and my linguistic ability.[sorry, I didn't do a great job on the reference to cultural fit here, but you want this sentence to be a very brief summary of why you think they should hire you and I see three issues - knowledge of the law, speaking english and fitting in with their lawyers. I think it's probably ok to cover the last in the paragraph below]. I began taking tax law at Cergy-Pontoise and studied [tax] for my Master's Degree at La Sorbonne University (Master 2 de Droit des Affaires et Fiscalité). I have continued my legal and linguistic development at my current internship at Ernst & Young Paris, where my legal research, writing and speaking experience has all been with English-speaking clients.

In addition to my legal and linguistic ability, I would be a good fit culturally. I enjoyed meeting your Paris team during a breakfast [was this an interview or a conference or something?] at your offices and look forward to working with them to provide clients concise, practical legal advice.

I am available at your convenience to discuss my candidacy further and look forward to hearing from you.

Thank you for your consideration,
Filthy French snail-eater.


I did not read the original cover letter and have changed a lot.

Roger_Mudd posted:

Hot drat, I love me some IzzyFnStradlin!

I like to imagine that he isn't a troll and that somewhere there is some bi-polar angry guy furiously pounding on his keyboard.

gvibes
Jan 18, 2010

Leading us to the promised land (i.e., one tournament win in five years)

evilweasel posted:

I've got a friend who got a partner mentor in a field they'd hate: does that mean they're likely to end up in that part of the firm this summer? This firm has a pretty small summer class this year, if it matters.
No, I don't think so. Although we try to set people up with advisor in their areas, particularly with partner advisors, there are only a few

jonmitz posted:

Did anyone here have a graduate degree in engineering (in my case, MS EE, 3.7+) and then go to law school? From what I understand, they are rare, and highly sought after.

I read the whole OP and nothing was mentioned about post-graduate degrees going to law school.

I'm trying to decide if I'd be happier working 9-5 in a cubicle designing a circuit or working 14 hour days...
Although EE (and pharma advanced) degrees are in relatively high demand, the market still sucks in absolute terms. If you have a decent job, don't go to law school.

Also (I'm a BS CompE), I don't think an advanced degree gets you as far (compared to people with BSes) in the EE area as it does in the pharma area.

Leif.
Mar 27, 2005

Son of the Defender
Formerly Diplomaticus/SWATJester


After a long rear end graduation where our dean (who is the chair of the UNCAT) rambled on about torture for 30 minutes in an incomprehensible accent, and AG Eric Holder gave us wisdom along with a couple shoutouts to some of the grads (one of whom he kissed on the forehead as she crossed the stage; I think she's his niece, because different last name but they look VERY similar), I'm now finished with this 3 year long nightmare.

A very very important question remains:

What is the correct term to use between now and the bar exam: Lawyer, or Attorney? I always thought Lawyer meant licensed to practice, but various web searches are informing me that it simply means that you were schooled in legal education, whereas an attorney need not necessarily have had formal education (i.e., Cali-style reading for the bar).

This is very important, I need to update my linked in to have the proper word following unemployed.

quepasa18
Oct 13, 2005


SWATJester posted:

After a long rear end graduation where our dean (who is the chair of the UNCAT) rambled on about torture for 30 minutes in an incomprehensible accent, and AG Eric Holder gave us wisdom along with a couple shoutouts to some of the grads (one of whom he kissed on the forehead as she crossed the stage; I think she's his niece, because different last name but they look VERY similar), I'm now finished with this 3 year long nightmare.

A very very important question remains:

What is the correct term to use between now and the bar exam: Lawyer, or Attorney? I always thought Lawyer meant licensed to practice, but various web searches are informing me that it simply means that you were schooled in legal education, whereas an attorney need not necessarily have had formal education (i.e., Cali-style reading for the bar).

This is very important, I need to update my linked in to have the proper word following unemployed.

You could just put SWATJester, J.D.

Direwolf
Aug 16, 2004
Fwar

if we don't drink is that an issue for aforementioned social events? Could I pass by sitting around and holding a drink?

gvibes
Jan 18, 2010

Leading us to the promised land (i.e., one tournament win in five years)

SWATJester posted:

What is the correct term to use between now and the bar exam: Lawyer, or Attorney?
Off the cuff, I'd say neither. You aren't an attorney or lawyer, and holdign yourself out as such is probably a violation of some sort of ethical or legal rule.

Direwolf posted:

if we don't drink is that an issue for aforementioned social events? Could I pass by sitting around and holding a drink?
You don't have to drink. Get a water with a lemon slice or something, or a diet coke, if you want to avoid some questions.

gvibes fucked around with this message at May 24, 2010 around 17:23

Incredulous Red
Mar 25, 2008



SWATJester posted:

After a long rear end graduation where our dean (who is the chair of the UNCAT) rambled on about torture for 30 minutes in an incomprehensible accent, and AG Eric Holder gave us wisdom along with a couple shoutouts to some of the grads (one of whom he kissed on the forehead as she crossed the stage; I think she's his niece, because different last name but they look VERY similar), I'm now finished with this 3 year long nightmare.

A very very important question remains:

What is the correct term to use between now and the bar exam: Lawyer, or Attorney? I always thought Lawyer meant licensed to practice, but various web searches are informing me that it simply means that you were schooled in legal education, whereas an attorney need not necessarily have had formal education (i.e., Cali-style reading for the bar).

This is very important, I need to update my linked in to have the proper word following unemployed.

SWATJester, Esquire

Roger_Mudd
Jul 17, 2003



SWATJester posted:

A very very important question remains:

What is the correct term to use between now and the bar exam: Lawyer, or Attorney? I always thought Lawyer meant licensed to practice, but various web searches are informing me that it simply means that you were schooled in legal education, whereas an attorney need not necessarily have had formal education (i.e., Cali-style reading for the bar).

Why do some folks put "Attorney at Law"? Are there other types? Can I be an "Attorney at Computer Games"?

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Incredulous Red
Mar 25, 2008



Roger_Mudd posted:

Why do some folks put "Attorney at Law"? Are there other types? Can I be an "Attorney at Computer Games"?

It's a holdover from way-back England - attorneys at law practiced in common law courts, solicitors practiced in courts of equity, barristers practiced in the higher courts.

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