Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

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commish: Sep 17, 2009

TyChan posted:

By "slogging," I meant working really hard and going through lots of material. Is this somehow off? My friends at prosecutorial offices on the state and federal levels put Cravath-level hours into their jobs.

I have friends at Cravath... I find it hard to believe that it's really on that level. I'd last 2 weeks at Cravath before I moved on.

# ¿ Jun 30, 2010 22:19

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# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 17:38

commish: Sep 17, 2009

TyChan posted:

Maybe that was a bit hyperbolic, but the hours can definitely be up there as you saw from the Manhattan D.A.'s schedule.

Yeah, I understand. One of my best friends at Cravath - I haven't seen her in 8 months, mind you - billed (BILLED) over 120 hours a week for the first 3 months she started at the firm. Now her hours are "much" better - usually around 80 to 90 hours a week billed. It's insane. I don't know what she did to get so much work (though I suspect she brought it on herself partly), but they are crushing her soul.

I have friends at other firms who had it pretty bad as well and already quit after a few months. Makes me love my own firm all the more. It's hard for me to have sympathy for people who work these crazy hours as a lawyer. I'm not sure what they expected, working for major NYC firms.

# ¿ Jun 30, 2010 22:39

commish: Sep 17, 2009

HooKars posted:

I have a friend at Cravath in Corporate who pretty much does nothing all day but "professional reading." He's leaving for a clerkship soon so nobody will give him anything now but it's been like that pretty much since he started. It depends on a lot of different factors - not just on the firm but the practice group, how much you procrastinate, etc.

I know a ton of people who seem to gently caress around all day chatting and don't even start their work til late afternoon but "work so hard."

Yes! It depends on so many factors. One of my friends at my firm billed about NINE hours for all of June, yet I'm working on 4 different deals at the same time. Can be pretty random, but I like to tell myself that it's because I'm good. Yeah, that's it :\

# ¿ Jun 30, 2010 23:27

commish: Sep 17, 2009

poofactory posted:

Me: Ok CL, our court date is 7/15 at 9:00. Try to get there 15 minutes early.
CL: In the morning or at night?
Me: Of course in the morning.
CL: Why not at night?
Me: Is the bank open at 9PM, the post office? DO you work at night?
CL: Yeah I work at night.
Me: ...
Me: loving idiot. Hmm, maybe that isn't so stupid.

Yeah, night court. One of my profs in law school did night court for a while years ago, had some hilarious stories of the crazies.

# ¿ Jul 2, 2010 17:35

commish: Sep 17, 2009

Bud Manstrong posted:

Do not become a lawyer.

You. You there. Do not go to law school. Stop it.

Want to know the percentage of my law school friends who graduated with me who agree with this? About 80%. It's actually pretty funny. Some have already quit their "amazing" big firm jobs.

# ¿ Oct 25, 2010 22:32

commish: Sep 17, 2009

gvibes posted:

Without a technical background, this is very very difficult. I know some people who have successfully done so, but it's a huge long shot. Also, all the good copyright work is focused in New York and California, so you are basically stuck with trademark.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. Besides patent prosecution (which seems just terrible), I'm not sure what area of IP you need a technical background for.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2010 23:28

commish: Sep 17, 2009

diospadre posted:

The problem (at least the one I faced when pursuing IP work during/right after law school) is IP firms were unlikely to consider you unless you had a technical degree, even if you only wanted to do TM/C. There are plenty of people with tech degrees, so they'd rather take someone who can practice in all three areas rather than just two. I can't imagine that that's changed much.

Well, there is more to IP than patents, copyrights and trademarks, but what you say is probably true for IP boutiques, where they probably prefer people with technical backgrounds.

And gvibes, I know some partners who think it is an asset NOT to have a technical background when doing patent litigation, as you can more easily explain things in a nontechnical way to the jury/judge.

I'm not saying that having a technical degree won't help your chances; I just don't think it's necessary to actual practice most areas of IP law. Firms might disagree, and that's really the only opinion that matters.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2010 23:52

commish: Sep 17, 2009

D) hit the lottery

I'm still waiting on D myself.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2010 23:58

commish: Sep 17, 2009

Oldsrocket_27 posted:

I do. I never said I thought it meant a guaranteed job.

Either way, I get the picture: Law school flat out isn't a good option, especially since since my LSAT is very poor, and I don't have any reasonable chance of getting a job at a law firm if I did go through with law school. I need to put a lot of work in to determining what other career would be better for me to pursue. This is probably (ok, I guess it is) what I needed to hear, regardless of whether I'm happy about it or not. At least you guys got some mild entertainment out of it, right?

I'd take some time to decide anything, really. A year or three. I think people who go straight through are doing it wrong.

# ¿ Nov 2, 2010 01:09

commish: Sep 17, 2009

areyoucontagious posted:

I have a question about other advanced degrees and how they factor into my acceptance (or lack thereof) into a school:

Say for example, I have a PhD from a top 10 school in Biology (or chemistry, or physics, or whatever). Does this improve my chances dramatically compared to other students? Assume that I can score well enough on the LSAT and that my undergraduate and graduate GPAs are competitive.

I'm aware that those are huge assumptions, but I'm just curious about the advanced degree. Basically I'm interested in patent law and have no interest in continuing scientific research.

Have you considered becoming a patent agent/technical advisor/whatever you want to call them? Some firms will pay for law school for its patent agents/tech advisors. It's a pretty sweet deal, as you automatically have a job secured upon graduation.

# ¿ Nov 2, 2010 20:44

commish: Sep 17, 2009

IM FROM THE FUTURE posted:

A friends sister is spending 100k to go to a T3 lawschool in boston and plans to become a FBI agent with the degree. Aside from the obvious salary vs education cost issues, can someone clear up how retarded this plan is for me? I can find piles of information explaining how she will never sucessfully be a normal lawyer, but info on using a law degree to become an agent seems sparse.

I'd love to be an FBI agent attorney. Sign me up. Do they get guns?

# ¿ Nov 2, 2010 21:36

commish: Sep 17, 2009

Cortina posted:

Texas bar results come out in the next half hour to an hour or so. The hit counter on the law examiners website is leaping by thousands each time I frantically refresh.

I am literally shaking so hard i can barely type.

Good luck! My heart was through my eyeball when I opened up the website to see my result.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2010 19:44

commish: Sep 17, 2009

I see Cravath announced bonuses. Very, very weak.

# ¿ Nov 22, 2010 21:13

commish: Sep 17, 2009

evilweasel posted:

A handy gem from a recent columbia email:

I can't believe Columbia 2Ls can't find firm jobs.

# ¿ Nov 23, 2010 00:48

commish: Sep 17, 2009

I majored in federal law in law school. It's pretty cool.

# ¿ Dec 7, 2010 03:43

commish: Sep 17, 2009

Four Finger Wu - great name, great book.

# ¿ Dec 9, 2010 18:57

commish: Sep 17, 2009

Roger_Mudd posted:

Can anyone recommend some good pre barbri bar prep stuff?

Why would you do that? I thought barbri itself was overkill... can't imagine doing more on top of that.

# ¿ Dec 22, 2010 19:56

commish: Sep 17, 2009

Adar posted:

You know, this is something I never learned and am vaguely curious about. If you transfer from someplace like Cornell to CCN (still implying you were top 10%), do employers give you more credit than if you transfer from, say, Fordham?

Of course, at least at my firm. Also, and I'm sure most people realize this and most firms are the same, we don't see a transfer student as being on the same level as someone who started at the school as a 1L.

# ¿ Jan 10, 2011 19:44

commish: Sep 17, 2009

Stunt Rock posted:

Market price here for an uncontested without kids is $500. Market price for an uncontested with kids is $1000. They're seriously the easiest things ever to do and take all of about two hours of time at most.

Wouldn't market price vary by... market?

# ¿ Jan 11, 2011 19:13

commish: Sep 17, 2009

JamSessionEin posted:

Can I ask about finding gainful employment as a lawyer?

I'm in my third year, with one semester to go, and I honestly have no idea where I'm going to end up or how to get there. I have no idea what kind of law I want to end up in, but I'm not particularly discriminating at this point - a job is a job, and I need to secure something for after graduation.

I've done a bit of intern work; two summers for a local, smaller law firm and one summer interning for a NJ Superior Court judge in the family division.

The job placement office at my law school is pretty unhelpful if you're not in the top 10% of your class. I am, unfortunately, around the middle of the class, and so the only real 'jobs' they've been able to dig up for me are trivial things like paid research positions for a professor for the summer following my graduation.

The handful of smaller law offices local to me have flat-out told me that they're not interested in hiring anyone in any capacity, even before I could give them a resume. This was particularly disappointing at the local firm I've interned for twice, since I am on very good terms with them and always sort've expected I'd end up with a job there after graduation, but they're downsizing a lot and apparently not doing so well.

I'm not averse to working in a bigger firm at all, but I get the impression that those jobs are exponentially more competitive because of the attendant higher salary. Truthfully, I don't even know where to begin to try and make inroads with them.

My hunch right now is to go talk to some of the connections I've made at the courthouse and see if I could possibly secure a clerkship for the judge that I interned for earlier. That might pan out, but clerking always seemed like such a bitch job, at least in family division where I was. Is clerking actually worth it in the long run? It feels crazy to me to spend 40 grand a year on law school just to graduate and get a job earning, well, 40 grand a year, but the rationale I constantly hear for it is that it's prestigious and will help you secure more gainful employment down the road.

Any general advice?

Yeah, I am assuming this is a troll post. I hope so

# ¿ Jan 11, 2011 21:48

commish: Sep 17, 2009

Holland Oats posted:

I've been procrastinating with applying for 1L summer jobs because I figure that grades will be posted any day now. Should I just go on ahead with applications or is it ok to wait for my grades to come out? Would employers even bother looking at me before I send in my transcript? The ones I want to apply for have deadlines that end in February.

Yeah, don't think that the employer will wait until the end of February, and then review all of the applications then. The earlier you apply, the better.

# ¿ Jan 12, 2011 23:33

commish: Sep 17, 2009

Lilosh posted:

Well I'll be damned. The registrar just released the cutoff for the top 10%. Due to a slight optional increase in the allowable curve, a 3.81 ended up the top 10% of Cornell's 1L class. My 3.77 would have been in the top 10% any semester except this one.

Well gently caress. Somehow the "top 15%" or whatever it might be doesn't sound quite as awesome.

God I hate when I get resumes on my desk with poo poo like "top 10%" written on it. I can see your transcript - I don't need to see it on your resume as well. I remember last year I interviewed a girl who had a line on her resume that said something like "top 5% in my legal writing class". No idea why.

# ¿ Jan 13, 2011 15:51

commish: Sep 17, 2009

prussian advisor posted:

Since when do law schools print that information on their transcript? I've seen transcripts from half a dozen law schools and not one of them had that information on it.

Class rank? Some transcripts definitely do, but what I was talking about are someone's grades. I don't particularly care if someone is in the top 10% of their class, or the top 15%. It's not as if I'd give a guy a thumbs up if he's top 10% but not if the same guy was top 15%. Maybe I'm in the minority on this.

# ¿ Jan 13, 2011 18:19

commish: Sep 17, 2009

Tetrix posted:

I think people are saying that the grades are completely meaningless without the percentile rank there. Sure, if someone has 10 As in 10 classes they are obviously a good student, but what if they have 3 Bs, 3 B+s and 4 As. Add in the fact that every school's curve is different and it causes headaches.

Those schools without "normal" grading systems cause the most headaches. Why do they insist on being different!

# ¿ Jan 13, 2011 18:59

commish: Sep 17, 2009

Copernic posted:

You're weird. Everyone should have their class rank on their resume (if it's good). A good class rank impresses people and transcripts are virtually useless because they don't give you comparative information.

If I get a transcript with all Bs, I'm pretty sure they aren't at the top of their class. If they have all A/A-, then I'm pretty sure that they are. For everyone else, the percentile really doesn't matter. I guess other firms might have hard cut-off or whatnot.

# ¿ Jan 13, 2011 20:31

commish: Sep 17, 2009

MoFauxHawk posted:

You mean all of them? No two schools are going to have the exact same grades equal the exact same percentile of the class, even if they do happen to have the same curve.

No poo poo. I was talking about schools that use pass/high pass/whatever, Chicago's system, etc.

# ¿ Jan 13, 2011 20:37

commish: Sep 17, 2009

mrtoodles posted:

Tomorrow begins week 3 in biglaw.

Talked to my fellow initiates and they all had the same new year's resolution: make it a year without getting fired/laid off.

I've been in a while, and that's always my resolution.

# ¿ Jan 18, 2011 17:37

commish: Sep 17, 2009

Archilochos posted:

Any current or past NYU/Columbia students around that might have some time to talk about their experiences? I haven't heard back from Columbia yet, but regardless of the decision it looks like there's a good chance I'll be heading to Manhattan next year. I know there used to be a list in the OP but it looks like it didn't survive the new thread iteration.

Most lawyers I know who went to Columbia are kinda dbag-ish, to be honest. Then again, most lawyers in general are as well.

# ¿ Jan 25, 2011 00:16

commish: Sep 17, 2009

_areaman posted:

I only read this thread now out of habit. I graduated with a computer science degree and decided programming wasn't for me, and worked at a PR firm while I prepared for law school. I did well on the LSAT (170) and applied to law schools and then retracted everything because of this thread. I then very quickly found a job as an entry level software engineer at a start-up that has subsequently exploded. Whether this counts as 'real' engineering or not is a matter of debate but it has similarities.

It's been the best decision of my life, and I realized I actually do love programming, which is why I got a CS degree in the first place. The hours are amazing and I can work from home whenever I feel like it. It is also high paying and extremely interesting... I can't remember who said it, but a piece of advice I heard once was, "Find a job you like to do and you'll never work a day in your life". That's really the truth, I come home from work and feel really happy and fulfilled, not tired at all.

Moral of the story? Don't go to law school. I have several friends who took this route (partly why I was applying) and they are now jobless, Panera Bread, and still in school with no hope. I have two friends at North Eastern, 3L and 2L, and they are totally hosed, no hope what-so-ever.

If you can do anything else do that, and if you like computers try giving programming a shot, at least in Boston good engineers are in high demand.

You forgot to mention your model wife.

# ¿ Jan 31, 2011 22:37

commish: Sep 17, 2009

blar posted:

So I opted to pay off my car rather than the Barbri courses and I will be avoiding private loans like the plague. I'd rather live in my car down by the river than have Sallie Mae execute on its equity.

I will be paying cash for a Feb. 2011 barbri taker's books and filled in outline. What else do I need to pass? I can comfortably spend an additional $500 on study aids.

That's all you should need. I'd buy some practice MBA questions if you don't have any.

# ¿ Feb 1, 2011 16:34

commish: Sep 17, 2009

Colorblind Pilot posted:

Wow that sounds terrible. Is this what it's like for pretty much all associates working in corporate law?

My experiences are vastly different, but I know it can vary firm by firm, practice group by practice group.

# ¿ Feb 8, 2011 20:12

commish: Sep 17, 2009

Any 1Ls interviewing for a firm job? I've been interviewing some, wonder if any are goons. In NYC, of course.

# ¿ Feb 11, 2011 22:11

commish: Sep 17, 2009

MEET ME BY DUCKS posted:

I apologize that I wasn't more specific, I'm just a bit paranoid until everything is locked down. I'm in at Harvard and Stanford and expecting word from Yale still, though at this point it will likely be a waitlist. Do we have any Harvard/Stanford students or grads that can comment on their job prospects?

As for my undergrad/scores, my undergrad is around rank 100 public, not a good school at all. My numbers are okay, 4.0/173. I know everyone says softs don't matter, but I think they almost certainly made the difference in my case. I entered the cycle expecting to go to Boalt, but my softs seem to have been taken better than expected.

Barely anyone gets a job coming out of a top 3 law school. Your prospects look dim :\
:rolleyes:

# ¿ Feb 11, 2011 23:11

commish: Sep 17, 2009

entris posted:

I know gently caress-all about IP law. Isn't there a difference between trademark and copyright? If Sarah Palin trademarks her name, that's different than copyrighting it, right?

Barely any difference.

# ¿ Feb 15, 2011 16:09

commish: Sep 17, 2009

entris posted:

The only reason I ask is because the two goon quotes above say:

1. Palin filed a trademark application.
2. Goon #2 goes on and on about copyright (wrongly, even I can tell that), which seems odd since we're talking about trademarks?

God IP is so boring even writing this post makes me sleepy.

"I know nothing about IP."

"IP is so boring."

Hmmmm....

# ¿ Feb 15, 2011 17:11

commish: Sep 17, 2009

JudicialRestraints posted:

I can safely assume that one of the these exceptions covers it because the 1st Amendment basically gives carte blanche to those reporting on the (true) activities of public figures.

Most statutes incorporate some sort of formulation of the Sullivan v. New York style stuff. I'm not gonna know the exact names without taking a class on it, but I can say that there will be an exception that covers the example listed above (Palin sues for infringement when someone in the press uses her name while reporting upon a unfavorable case). If there is not such a statutory/common law exception yet created, the first person to try and sue on such grounds would find themselves creating it.

Ergo: I don't give a poo poo.

Does Coke sue if someone uses the name "Coke" in a news article? It's not trademark infringement if you use someone's trademark in a newspaper article or news report.

# ¿ Feb 15, 2011 17:14

commish: Sep 17, 2009

Baruch Obamawitz posted:

Well, only because Coca-Cola would be unable to prove that the use of the COKE mark is likely to cause confusion in that use. And even a newspaper article or news report might still be liable under a dilution theory under 15 USC 1125(c).

Yes, except for the fact that dilution law specifically excludes news reporting.

# ¿ Feb 15, 2011 17:48

commish: Sep 17, 2009

Soothing Vapors posted:

speaking of awful legalese bullshit in other threads, did you see the agonizingly stupid legal conversation about the Super Bowl ticket debacle, between some dumb 1L and a bunch of dumb TFFers in the Feb N/V thread? It made me want to kill myself more than usual, and that's a pretty high baseline to start from

I HATE reading legal arguments on the web between non-lawyers (or idiots in general). It's pretty annoying, especially when it comes to IP issues, since that's what I do. It seems as if 75% of people don't know the differences between copyright, trademark and patents, and fair use is a defense to pretty much every law on the books.

Another thing I hate is dealing with local counsel. I had another firm file ONE PIECE OF loving PAPER, and the bill I received was for $10,000. Unreal. Ridiculous.

# ¿ Feb 15, 2011 18:51

commish: Sep 17, 2009

Linguica posted:

I took copyright, trademark, and patent classes and it's still boring as poo poo

Yes, because law school classes are an accurate representation of being a lawyer. :p

# ¿ Feb 15, 2011 19:41

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# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 17:38

commish: Sep 17, 2009

alreadybeen posted:

It is such a dumb question. Whenever I was asked this in one of my interviews when it was my turn I would ask "What is the worst part about working at this firm?".

I think this is a great question to ask an interviewer, to be honest. Maybe not in those words... but I would think that the candidate is interested in seeing if the firm is a good fit for them, which is what I would want. I get so many meaningless questions from candidates that I tend to think they aren't interested in my firm as much as they are interested in getting a job ANYWHERE, if that makes sense.

# ¿ Jun 20, 2011 14:26

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

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