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Satisfied lawyer checking in to repeat the OP's advice: If you aren't 100% certain about law school, do not go to law school. There are no jobs. It is a dead zone. You either need to be making all A's or all C's... meaning you either need to be a mutant freak genius who doesn't need to ask, or a mental patient/businessperson/heir to a firm who also doesn't need to ask. That means the middle 80% of law students are hosed. The job farming system is broken, and nothing is provided for you. I graduated and passed the bar in 2008, and fall into the C's category (mixed mental patient and businessperson). I started a solo bankruptcy practice, and I'm very happy with my career choice. But all of my friends except the straight A mutants have had severe employment issues, and many are not practicing law. I'd be happy to answer any questions about starting a solo practice, or bankruptcy work. I only exist because some one else held my hand, so I'm happy to pass along whatever practical advice I can. Many law firms are just a scam, so why not start your own?
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Mar 10, 2012 03:41
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Roger_Mudd posted:Hey fellow solo bankruptcy practitioner! We're the chosen people. And it's very strange to hear bad economic news with a grin... like "come on Greece, papa has a mortgage, come to papa!" (I'm new here, so I just discovered I don't have the private message thingy. I guess I should cough up $10... My non-legal-advice hypothetical answer is: here it'd work just fine no exception needed, it's a necessary monthly expense) woozle wuzzle fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Mar 10, 2012 |
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Mar 10, 2012 04:03
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A solo practitioner's hours could vary from zero to 80, but I probably average 30 hours a week. That's not billable, that's hours working. It changes depending on the season and workload, but I honestly average about 30 hours in the office/courthouse per week. I know dozens of solo practitioners around me, and they would probably be in the same 30-40 hours worked per week range. The reason is the $ per hour. Being solo allows for a much higher profit margin, so you can make a decent salary for less hours worked. Or you could work 60 hours and make a ton, I prefer a home life. The trade-off is sheer terror. You are literally paid a premium for terror, but I highly recommend it.
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Mar 11, 2012 00:39
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I think legal field will lag behind the economic recovery. It will take time for the corporate litigation to pick back up that runs the engine of a lot of big firms. The market will improve from the deadzone its been in, but I think we've got another couple years until it's business as usual. The glut of unemployed lawyers will take a few years to work its way out for new graduates to have a shot.
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Mar 12, 2012 01:46
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How life is life there? Virginia abolished parole in 1995, and it's actually pretty neat. Instead of getting a sentence of like 25 years which really meant 5, they reduce sentencing guidelines down to the average time actually served and abolished parole. So what used to be a 10 year sentence is now a 2 year sentence, but it cannot be reduced further for behavior/parole. But that also means that life is literally life. At first it seemed like a terrible idea, but after working itself out the leniency is now meted out by the sentencing judge rather than some dumb parole board. And there's clarity and certainty with sentencing that is a relief to victims.
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Mar 13, 2012 21:58
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Doc review protip: SLOW AND STEADY I started as speedy gonzalez, cursing the software and setting up keyboard macros and poo poo. But it turns out they don't care how fast you are as long as you aren't shockingly slow. The faster you do it, the faster you run out of documents, meaning the faster you stop getting paid. So take your time. Thoughtfully consider each blank page rather than flip through 1 per second with memorized keystrokes. Set a documents per hour goal, and stick to it even if you get a patch of blanks. [Note: the firm literally doesn't care if you are reasonably slow. They are billing the client per hour at 3x your pay, so the faster you are the less profitable you are. You truly do NOT earn friends by zipping through at 3x the rate of others.] In other news: I made $2500 today as a solo. I'm sure a lot of you make way more than me, but it's fun as hell to get $2500 cash for earned work as a solo... and go home with $2500 in your pocket. woozle wuzzle fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Mar 17, 2012 |
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Mar 17, 2012 04:55
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Nah, I did doc review part time in law school and until I passed the bar. I was able to schedule all my 3L classes to be MWF, and do doc review tues and thurs. Now I'm a solo practitioner.
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Mar 17, 2012 13:30
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That's one more thing they don't tell you in law school: regardless of your specialty or practice area, you will be dealing with crazy people on a daily basis.
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Mar 18, 2012 03:27
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Agesilaus posted:Compliance?  That's all I know about it. woozle wuzzle fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Mar 18, 2012 |
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Mar 18, 2012 23:39
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Green Crayons posted:Virginia lawyer spotted. Huzzah for the Commonwealth! Even if you were solidly late, you could still file it with a motion for leave of court to file late. As long as the case hasn't moved beyond pre-trial motions or caused serious harm to the opposing side, it'll be granted. The worst thing that would happen is some small sanction like attorneys fees for their response. This leniency only really applies to pretrial stuff, jurisdictional deadlines like appeals are hard coded. If I were in the office and not lazy, I'd look up the rule for it, but alas. The code specifically mentions that the judge should promote fairness (ie not prohibit filing for being a little late). So procrastination is acceptable 
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Mar 21, 2012 02:12
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Lilosh posted:I'm wondering what's to prevent shrewd defense attorneys from withholding a borderline/ok plea from their client, letting their client go to trial, and if they lose, claiming "Oh my god, whoops, I accidentally forgot to forward this plea to my client, guess the state has to reoffer it!" Aside from all the reasons already mentioned, you overestimate the defense attorney's care level for that individual. No defendant is worth sticking your neck out even slightly, because then you're less able to defend the next. It's a longterm numbers game, so you can't burn any bridges for one client.
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Mar 22, 2012 05:43
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YankeeAirPirate posted:Anyone know anything about lawyers in the ACLU or similar think tanks/"foundations" concerned with social and political legal issues? Beyond my overwhelming urge to crush your dreams with cold hard reality, what is it that you want to know? Your question is sorta open-ended.
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Mar 24, 2012 20:07
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electricsugar posted:I live in Hong Kong right now, working as an english teacher. I have a BA in Literature. I thought law would be an excellent extention of my English Lit skills... Your language is a benefit, and gives you like a +5% chance of being employed. Bringing you to a total of 7% chance of being employed. My numbers might be slightly off, but the overwhelming doom of this thread is correct. Law school is not particularly engaging. It isn't a thoughtful process of reflection on society and laws, like philosophy or political science might be. Instead of an extension of english lit, it grinds down the language so you can parse contracts searching for a whiff of liability without noticing the humans involved. There may well be a market for you, and the actual day-to-day job can be very fulfilling. But law school itself is not. You may want to get in touch with attorneys you know, friends of friends. Take them out to lunch and get a more personal sense of things before you leap in.
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Mar 26, 2012 20:17
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Roger_Mudd posted:Not to mention the sledgehammer of the bar coming at your face in 3 months. Yeah, I remember going through graduation with this feeling of impending doom. Like I was at a big happy party, but I knew nuclear war just started and I was waiting on the missile flight time.
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Mar 31, 2012 23:22
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Agesilaus posted:definitely doesn't sound awesome to me, because I don't want to do private criminal defence work. You probably know the facets of it far better than me, but I know people who do criminal defense for things like traffic and dui, and it's lucrative without the "what is that liquid... wai.. NOO" of general criminal defense. Traffic is also typically short-lived cases with a high rate of customer satisfaction, so you avoid the appeal every decision, bar complaint for every case bullcrap of the violent offenders with nothing to lose.
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Apr 1, 2012 05:31
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I saw some whacky crap this week (well... whackier than normal). In a bankruptcy administrative hearing, a debtor was to be sworn under oath for a hearing necessary to their bankruptcy. They were asked: "Do you swear or affirm under oath that your testimony will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you God". They politely responded: "No." To which the trustee said "uhhhh what?", and they explained that they were a devout jehovah's witness and could not be under oath to any authority but god, and especially not swear under God as inferior to a government. They were deadly serious, and no amount of coaxing by their attorney would convince them otherwise. The trustee even offered to take out the "so help you god" part, and just make it an affirmation. But the person was spooked like they were about to be tricked into giving up their eternal soul. The trustee reset their hearing date to give their attorney time to sort them out. It's just whacky... Has anyone seen that in a criminal context?
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Apr 9, 2012 06:36
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nm posted:Yeah, they just afirm that they will tell the truth and understand the penalty of perjury. I figured as much, but the guy was suspicious that he was being tricked. I wondered if unwilling witnesses would battle in criminal cases by pretending like the affirmation was a cloak for a secret gov't oath.
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Apr 9, 2012 16:39
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fougera posted:Also, Barbri is criminally expensive, is it worth those video lectures or are there better alternatives? For bar exam prep, I think it's totally worth it. If you go through their crap you pass. They offer bar prep loans (of course) that are easy to qualify for, and what's another couple thousand piled onto the mountain of debt?
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Apr 13, 2012 16:22
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Oh jesus christ, we're talking about privilege here too? Fyad, take me away!entris posted:And now that I'm out in the real world, I'd say that the CRT material, while intellectually interesting, is completely useless. woozle wuzzle fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Apr 15, 2012 |
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Apr 15, 2012 15:55
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Woo for Mcdonnell. Our AG is just as crazy too. Are you in VA, entris? Hair control effected me greatly when I first got out. Almost every client would ask "so... when did you graduate?" as they're squinting at my diploma.
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Apr 15, 2012 20:17
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All these bankruptcy plans are silly. Why would you ever file bankruptcy on the corporate entity? You just let Tacos Unlimited LLC go defunct, and hope it takes them too long to pin you with personal liability. Filing the bankruptcy just puts you under oath for what you did and gives the creditors built in discovery.
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Apr 17, 2012 07:54
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Ani posted:If you're a big insolvent company I think it generally makes sense to file yourself so that you control the timing and the forum.
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Apr 17, 2012 15:22
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I think the rules should be relaxed for anyone within 1 week of a law school exam. Goatse in GBS? Oh wait, they have crimpro in 48 hours it's cool.
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Apr 24, 2012 06:17
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If you have a financial windfall within 180 days of filing, it's part of the bankruptcy. If grandma dies or you win megamillions on day 181, it's all free and clear. But if that happens on day 179, the creditors get the first shot at it. Work bonuses, raises, and that sort of thing don't count. It's typically winning prizes, inheritance, or divorce settlements that counts as a financial windfall. That's how it works now, it may have been different before 2005.
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Apr 27, 2012 01:02
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Angry Grimace posted:Gambling winnings/lottery payments should be post-petition earnings if you bought the ticket/gambled away post-petition earnings unless there's something I'm totally lost on. god drat unreadable federal code posted:(6)Proceeds, product, offspring, rents, or profits of or from property of the estate, except such as are earnings from services performed by an individual debtor after the commencement of the case. woozle wuzzle fucked around with this message at 08:03 on Apr 27, 2012 |
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Apr 27, 2012 07:59
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Angry Grimace posted:But if the debtor spends his post petition earnings on it, then the estate didn't pay anything I would think - the debtor did. I'm saying this on the assumption it should be relatively easy to separate out pre and post petition assets; I mean doesn't the trustee immediately seize all of the pre-petition assets (i.e. bank accounts) as estate assets? It seems like the gambling winnings would spring out of his post-petition earnings unless there was some way to make it clear the gambling winnings came from pre-petition assets. A secondary effect is a loss of discharge. Like let's say the money that bought the ticket is clearly provable as post-petition income. The trustee might not be able to get those funds, but they may object to discharge if the winnings push the debtor's income to disqualify them from a 7.
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Apr 27, 2012 18:48
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Yes and no (in that order, in other words bad news) They are hardcore personally liable for 940 & 941 and its not dischargeable. They can pay it through a 13 plan, but it has to be 100%. With the typical amounts I've seen of those taxes, that means they're screwed. I don't know the exact tax end of things, but they roll over as "civil penalties" attached to the owners personally. There's no sunset on it or anything like income tax in bankruptcy. There's no way to kill them off. I've only dealt with small corporations (1-2 owners), which I imagine is what you've got. It seems like the first thing any dying business does is stop paying the payroll tax. So what could have been a clean break from a failed business turns into a giant nightmare of personal liability.
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Apr 27, 2012 21:25
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Maintain your salary? Inhale the warm vapors of solo practice, for half the salary at half the hours. The "broadening legal background" is taken care of by watching Judge Judy in all your new free time.
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Apr 28, 2012 13:33
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Mons Hubris posted:If I got compensated for helping with the litigation it might be enough to pull me through until the other clients started coming in, and at least it would be something to put on my resume. If I get some mentorship it's at least better than going solo or being unemployed, and there wouldn't be a ton of obligation to stay if something better comes up. What % of your earnings has he proposed? Or has it not gotten to that stage yet? I can picture it going from being a great deal, to "OK now I know we discussed that small percentage. But we had to place the ads, pay the secretary more, and buy new software, so that really changes things, OK? It's going to have to be 50% for a while to recoup our costs, you know, to keep it fair". A firm like that doesn't usually make an offer unless they expect to profit from you. "Keep what you kill" is great if it actually means that, but I'd be wary of them sticking it to you with the rates.
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Apr 30, 2012 07:17
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Boosted_C5 posted:Meh. Finished law school with a 3.46 GPA. Only top 40%. Top 1/3 cut-off was 3.49. Woo! Where'd you just And uhhh, self-study can work, but do you have a recent book? If you steal this years Barbri book, it's a workable plan.
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May 5, 2012 07:38
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Boosted_C5 posted:WashingTTTon and Lee. It sounds like you're on a good track. And if you can find anyone taking VA barbri, that'd be perfect. The lectures from them that I found particularly useful, and would prioritize getting outlines about, were the ones about the test itself. In one they go over the rate of questions each subject area has received historically, and give educated guesses about what topics will receive questions this year. It's pretty detailed and they are pretty good at guessing. They might give 12 subjects to best cover the 7(?) essay questions. That's a lot better than facing 25 subjects or whatever. It's not fullproof, and you've still got to cover it all, but it really helps to focus your studying. For example, there's ALWAYS a wills question on VA state law, so you can't skim it. This will be specific to this testing year, so it'd take getting the outline from a friend. In another lecture, they go over the exact scoring system for VA essays and that really helped. If an essay has a possible 10(?) points, those points are all assigned to certain triggers. Like if you mention the right area of law, 1 point. Identify a contradiction, 1 point. Name the statute, 2 points. Etc. You can get a decent score by not knowing the answer, but building up to it decently. So style and "normal" writing are way less important than pumping out hits on those point triggers. A crude, unformatted list could earn a mediocre 5 points while a giant essay that misses the topic could earn 0. This is not specific to the testing year, so I bet you could get an old outline/video on it.
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May 6, 2012 19:57
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That online breakdown is helpful, but barbri will tell you exactly what's been on it the last several tests, and guess which topics are "due". Like if there hasn't been a corporations question for the last three tests, you can bet there will be one on the upcoming. Or if it was on the last 3, highly likely it will be cycled out. They know the trends. It's not a huge deal, but it's helpful.Boosted_C5 posted:Speaking of going solo, any area of law in particular you would recommend for a stay-at-home dad attempting to work from home part-part-part time? Like Roger_mudd, I'm in bankruptcy. I work maybe 25-30 hours per week. But you could do most things: criminal, family, wills, or whatever as a solo and have a flexible schedule. Bankruptcy is nice because it has huge demand and people will seek you out if you're new (and therefore cheap), so it's fast to jump in. The learning curve is a kick in the crotch though, you need a mentor to walk you through the forms. But that's probably true with most things you'd do. I'm in a suburb of Richmond. You can work from home, but I'd advise never meeting a client at your house. Rent a back room in some office. Like a real estate office or doctor, etc, for just a few hundred a month. Put a desk and fake plant in there, and bingo you got an office. If nothing else, meet them at a local library. You just don't want whacky people thinking they can show up at your house just to show you what they got in the mail that day. (THEY WILL DO THIS)
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May 6, 2012 21:34
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Boosted_C5 posted:Probably just stick to Chapter 7. Sticking to chapter 7 is definitely the way to start, as 13's are a god drat mystery in comparison. It can dovetail with finding a mentor type bankruptcy attorney in your area. They answer your chapter 7 questions, and you send them your messy cases. I'm in the Eastern District of VA, and you'll be Western. woozle wuzzle fucked around with this message at 19:32 on May 7, 2012 |
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May 7, 2012 19:29
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VA had no restrictions until this year, and now only half of CLE credits can come from 
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May 11, 2012 17:49
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Colorblind Pilot posted:DOONE with 1L! Is it worth doing the write-on? Don't do it, it's a trick. If you do well, it means more work.
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May 12, 2012 23:18
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Depends on your definition of decent.... Document review is what most of my class did for the 6 months. It pays OK, but has no other redeeming qualities other than it exists and it pays.
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May 16, 2012 06:51
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entris posted:Sigh. After reviewing your post history in this thread and cross-checking my firm's summer associate list, I have concluded that you may, in fact, be SAing at my firm. You don't have PMs, so send me an email at xyzyse@gmail.com. If you are actually SAing at my firm, that could be good times. You guys should enter a toxx bet where your goal is to get him fired, and his goal is to cling on for dear life.
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May 16, 2012 15:19
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Another easy employment opportunity, in VA at least, is court appointed work. Any admitted attorney in VA can sign up for the court-appointed list for misdemeanors after 1 often-provided CLE course. It pays like $120 a case (so not much) but a dozen a month will keep the hotpockets flowing and looks fantastic on a resume. All you need are business cards, a cell phone, and your local library.
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May 17, 2012 04:36
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I daydreamed today about a world where student loans were dischargable in bankruptcy. It was like a beautiful utopia where my debt vanished and income went exponential, where rainbows beamed across an empty sky and squirrels danced hand in hand with cats. After the boom, I would retire to my private island. During the rainy season, we would migrate to the mainland home and I would adjunct teach a law class in "How to immediately file your bankruptcy".
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May 24, 2012 01:20
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10-8 posted:Let's say that Congress gets replaced by liberal cyborgs and this actually happens. What would be the consequences to one's bar admission if you filed bankruptcy. Could the bar take action against you on the grounds that you weren't financially sound? I know that's one of the things that can ding you when you're first applying for admission. Easy Peasy. You get admitted while still in deferment, just like you would now. And then immediately file bankruptcy. But even if you filed before admission, I don't see how it could be a problem. You can't get much more "financially sound" than the debt-free status of some one just after a bankruptcy discharge.
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May 24, 2012 15:06
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