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Avalanche posted:This might not be the appropriate thread for this, but what is the general opinion about the paralegal side of things? Is it just as hosed as slitting your wrists for the bloodgod? Or is there actually some semblance of opportunity and hope with that choice compared to becoming a full blown I teach paralegal classes so I have some insight into this. It is definitely generally true that you don't need a paralegal degree to get a job in a law firm. A lot of firms prefer this and want to train people in the way they like doing things. However, some firms prefer people with a paralegal education because they don't want to have to train. It really varies based on where you are. But regardless, the degree/certificate isn't worthless. There's some distinction between programs that are ABA approved and those that aren't, but again, how much that matters depends on where you are. Where I am, employers like that; in some places it doesn't matter at all. Additionally, if you already have a BA, it's only a 1-year program (if you go full time) to get a post-bacc certificate. It is my experience that these graduates have a pretty decent shot at getting jobs. The 2-year associate degree students have it tougher. You can't get financial aid for the certificate though, if that matters. At any rate, if you don't want to be a lawyer but want to work at a law firm, this is a good route. However, the experience depends entirely on where you end up because you are at the mercy of the attorney you work for and the type of work you do. Just like with attorneys, litigation paralegals will work long hours when a trial is looming, whereas transactional paralegals don't have as much of that.
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May 10, 2010 18:35
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HooKars posted:It may depend on where you're located, but our transactional lawyers and paralegals worked long hours during closings. Yes, definitely true.
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May 10, 2010 19:26
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I'm leaving my firm this summer to teach full-time (hooray!) and I'm not sure how much notice I should give. This is my third firm and I've been here almost a year. The first one I didn't like them and gave exactly 2 weeks' notice because I felt that was the minimum professional requirement. I got laid off from my second firm so giving notice wasn't an issue. Basically, I know my current firm will need to replace me, and it's likely to be with a new grad who might need some training. I was thinking of giving a month's notice, but I'm just not sure. I don't want to leave them high and dry, but I don't want to give too much notice in the event they are not happy with me leaving and ask me to go immediately (I don't anticipate that happening but you never know). Any suggestions?
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May 11, 2010 18:55
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builds character posted:Congrats. Big firm or small firm? If big firm, then two weeks. If small firm, then no idea. Small firm -- I'm one of 4 attorneys, and I'm only part-time.
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May 11, 2010 19:29
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prussian advisor posted:So is this a tenure-track position (or the junior college equivalent?) Like an assistant professorship? I'm not sure whether all community colleges have a tenure track-esque system but all the ones I've encountered do. Yes, tenure track. There's a 3-year probationary period and I'm already through the second year because I've been teaching half-time. So one more year and then I'm tenured! Good pay, good benefits, summers off, etc. I could not be more excited. This will be the first job I've ever had that I wasn't planning to leave at some point.
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May 11, 2010 22:23
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HooKars posted:No notice. Instead, let me seamlessly take your place and hope they don't notice. If you were in Wisconsin, I'd recommend you, even though in reality I'm sure you'd hate it. I do collection and landlord/tenant, which is boring as hell. But it's easy, stress-free, and I hang out on the Internet most days in between hearings. My paralegal drafts everything for me and I just sign it. It isn't particularly intellectually stimulating though, and the pay isn't great. But it's been good for the short time I knew I'd need it until I could teach full-time.
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May 11, 2010 22:28
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prussian advisor posted:loving fantastic, man. Not sure what junior colleges are like in your state, but I can tell you that in my old state, once you get on the tenure track, it rapidly becomes a job with great security, surprisingly high pay, convenient hours, low stress, all that good poo poo. Congratulations, man--if that job is anything like they are back home, you've just gotten a better job than easily 90% of the thread It's pretty much as you described. In the fall, I'll only have classes Tuesday through Thursday. So 4-day weekend every week, although I'll have grading to do and prep for class, but at my leisure at home. The job security is very good, and we have a good union that negotiates good pay. It is a sweet deal. I teach all paralegal classes, nothing gen ed, if that's what you mean. Pretty good for a TTT grad, huh?
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May 11, 2010 22:40
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prussian advisor posted:Pretty good for anyone, really. If I had any clue how to do that I'd be happy to talk to you! You can PM me if you have that capability.
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May 12, 2010 17:16
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Defleshed posted:CALI Awards are the most useless thing ever. I still put my 2 on my resume though hahaha (one I got in a class that only had 3 people in it) I do that too. I only got one, and it was in a class where I had no idea what I was doing on the final.
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May 12, 2010 19:28
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wacko_- posted:Don't do it. Just think how much life sucked for us about this time last year. I don't know that it's quite as stressful the second time because you have a better idea of what to expect. Of course, I've only taken one bar exam so what do I know?
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May 12, 2010 22:37
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I gave my notice today at my law firm, and everyone was really happy for me. They were also very grateful I gave six weeks' notice so they can find someone to replace me. I'm glad that's done.
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May 17, 2010 17:17
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Mr. Fictitious posted:whatcha doing instead Teaching paralegal classes at the local community college. I've been doing that half-time for the past two years, and will now be full-time.
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May 18, 2010 02:45
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SWATJester posted:After a long rear end graduation where our dean (who is the chair of the UNCAT) rambled on about torture for 30 minutes in an incomprehensible accent, and AG Eric Holder gave us wisdom along with a couple shoutouts to some of the grads (one of whom he kissed on the forehead as she crossed the stage; I think she's his niece, because different last name but they look VERY similar), I'm now finished with this 3 year long nightmare. You could just put SWATJester, J.D.
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May 24, 2010 15:54
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Normally, this is where I chime in that you can get a job going to a lower-tiered school. I tell everyone how elitist this thread gets sometimes and you shouldn't automatically rule out law school if you can't get into a top school. I stand by that for the most part, while recognizing that getting a job is often (if not always) more difficult at lower-ranked schools. However, I can't even do that in this case because these schools are so bad. That's how bad of an idea this is. Warp, don't let your girlfriend go if you can at all help it! But at some point, you can't force her not to go and she'll have to live with the consequences of her decisions. You will then need to determine whether you're willing to live with them also.
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May 28, 2010 15:01
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Ainsley McTree posted:Yeah it was a pretty enlightening experience, to see how terrible some actual lawyers really are. It made me think "hey, I could do that" When I was clerking, reading the briefs was further proof to me that the diploma privilege in Wisconsin should go away. Some of these people had no business being attorneys. Of course, I might just be bitter that I had to take the bar exam...
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Jun 5, 2010 16:50
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entris posted:I recommend flat fees for most estate planning work, at least regarding drafting projects. Charge them a couple hundred dollars, if they are single with simple assets. If they are married, a couple hundred per person. "A couple hundred" can be anywhere from $200 to $500, but I'd keep it under $500 for simple work. I agree. You definitely want a flat fee. The first time you do one might take some time, but after that you'll just be changing names and a few other things so the time spent will go way down and therefore the amount you can bill will go down. A flat fee will allow you to charge more for that short amount of time.
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Jun 9, 2010 16:57
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J Miracle posted:My professor in Professional Responsibility did this all the time, and gave us speeches about how we shouldn't just take the first firm that offers us a job but try to find one that cares about our professional development. But at the same time, you really don't want to work somewhere you will hate, so this advice isn't completely off base. I took the first law firm job offered to me after clerking because I didn't want to risk being unemployed. I had a really bad feeling after the first interview that the attorneys there were assholes. I considered withdrawing my name but everyone convinced me not to and after the second interview, which wasn't as bad, I took the job. It was awful. I should have just trusted my instincts and kept looking for something else. So I do agree that you don't need to accept the first job offered, and that you are interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you. Now, this was in 2005 so maybe now you do have to take whatever you can get. But at the time I would have much rather been unemployed than worked there.
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Jun 11, 2010 15:01
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Lykourgos posted:only go to law school if you want to do criminal law I thought the mantra was don't go to law school unless you want to be a lawyer. When did it get so narrowed down as to only if you want to do criminal law?
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Jun 14, 2010 19:26
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Ainsley McTree posted:Can you give some examples of questions that people have asked that you've been impressed by (and why you've been impressed by them)? That's always the part of interviews that I could never get the hang of. I always want to ask "five years ago, where did you see yourself today" or "why did you want to work here" but I feel like that would come off as combative so I don't When I was interviewing for my clerkship, at the end of the interview I asked if there was anything he was looking for, or something he was hoping I'd address, that I hadn't addressed in response to his questions. He told me later he loved that question. I've used it ever since. Also, I've found that the more you talk about stuff other than the job, the better the interview is. They already know about your credentials by the time you get the interview, so a good part of it if them finding out if they like you and can stand to be around you 8-12 hours a day. quepasa18 fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Jun 16, 2010 |
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Jun 16, 2010 15:44
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HooKars posted:I applied to a paralegal job asking for 5 years experience at the company that my dad used to work for (and was general counsel for and he submitted my resume to). I was thinking I might actually hear back that I wasn't qualified enough because it required so many years of experience and I only have like 2 years of actual paralegal experience. I've seen this theory even in attorney jobs. I have a friend who has a biglaw job and hates it. He wants to get into state government (Atty General) or the courts (staff attorney). He's had multiple interviews where he's been told they worry he'd be bored or not challenged enough. It's very frustrating for him.
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Jun 22, 2010 16:32
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Mookie posted:It happens for in-house interviews too. It's hard to address those types of questions too without sounding like a slacker. You can talk about work-life balance and all that, but it ends up just sounding like you want to work as little as possible and have no goals for the future.
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Jun 22, 2010 17:10
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Green Crayons posted:"I like to work diligently and extensively but without the pressure of needing to strive for a more oustanding title/higher payscale/bigger office in an environment where peers work competitively instead of cooperatively. Working hard in what others would call a "dead-end job" is, for me, a rewarding career path where my hard work and teamwork will pay off in a sense of a job well done rather than material success or another notch on one's belt to climb some corporate capitalist's wet-dream of a ladder. After all, the job itself is the reward and the only acknowledgement I need of my accomplishments is the mere retention of my current position." It started off well, and then got into  territory.
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Jun 22, 2010 17:41
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Draile posted:I've only ever dealt with a couple pro se cases but a surprising number of them involved multiple 70+ page motions by the litigant. Pro se plaintiffs have all the time in the world it seems. The worst pro se person I had to deal with went to law school, but didn't practice because I suspect he didn't pass the bar. He actually works for an attorney who is currently suspended so I'm not sure exactly what he does. He kept telling me he was a trained litigator and I should be worried about going against him. He filed all kinds of goofy stuff, such as a commentary on my answer to his counterclaim. Everything he said indicated he had no clue what the law was. He almost refused to do mandatory mediation because he insisted it was arbitration (which is wasn't). Oh, and there was another pro se guy who opposed my motion to consolidate two cases against him by a mother and a daughter whose property he wouldn't return to them after he and the daughter broke up. The judge asked him why he opposed the motion, and his answer was "because it would be righteous." Best response ever.
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Jun 29, 2010 15:11
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HooKars posted:I'm convinced that God just sits up there and laughs at me. Aw, sorry to hear about the breakup. Timing really does suck sometimes.
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Jun 30, 2010 15:14
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Today is my last day at my law firm. I'm going to take this opportunity to talk about who should not go to law school. Normally, I don't buy into the "get into this level school or don't go" mentality. I figure if someone really truly wants to be a lawyer, it's not my business to convince them not to go. However, what I am going to say is don't go to law school if you don't want to be a lawyer in a law firm. I never ever wanted to be a lawyer. I don't have the qualities necessary to enjoy being a lawyer or be good at it. I was just bored a couple years after college and thought constitutional law classes sounded more interesting than economics classes (I was deciding between law and MBA). If you had asked me what I wanted to do when I was starting law school, I would have told you I wanted to do research. I have no idea now what I thought that meant. But you know, you can do anything with a law degree, right? I was lucky to clerk for the first three years after graduating. I loved that. But that's not a permanent job so eventually I had to move on. I've spent the last five years in firms hating most of it, and I've been lucky to be in places where I can count on one had the times I've worked weekends or stayed later than about 6pm. I've even worked with people I like. But I'm just not an aggressive person by nature, and don't really think quickly enough to be good in court or in negotiations. The thought of spending the next 30 years practicing law makes me sick to my stomach, and there's not much else out there that I'd be qualified to do, as we all know by now. I'm lucky that I've found something to do that pays well, uses my law degree, and that I love doing. So law school ended up being worth it for me. And certainly, there are people out there (and in this thread) that have found good government or other non law-firm jobs and have never had to work in a firm. But these are not the norm and you can't plan on that. So for anyone considering law school, be very aware of what you're getting into and carefully consider whether you should go if you already know you don't want to be a lawyer. I nearly wasted 3 years and $90K to do something I hate doing. tl;dr: don't go to law school unless you want to be a laywer and work in a law firm.
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Jun 30, 2010 15:35
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CaptainScraps posted:What other job did you find? I teach paralegal classes at the local community college. I've been doing it part-time for the last couple of years and now will be teaching full-time.
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Jun 30, 2010 16:18
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HooKars posted:I haven't had a whole lot of interviews since law school but of the few I have been on, none have actually even asked me for my transcript. Did you have your St. Louis interview yet? If so, how'd it go?
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Jul 13, 2010 14:40
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Is anyone familiar with filing social security claims? I need to create an assignment for one of my classes and am just looking for what the basic steps are, because I have no idea. PM me if you could hep me out.
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Jul 28, 2010 14:24
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Lykourgos posted:No, because every time you do that, you are leading the court to the wrong conclusion. That's deception, or at least a form of ill-will towards the bench. Also, lol at the idea that a guilty person has a right to a not guilty verdict. There are really two types of guilt. Legal guilt is whether factually the accused did what he is accused of doing. But that isn't enough for a conviction. There also has to be legal guilt, which is whether the prosecution can prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and where the police need to follow rules regarding things like Miranda and other consitutional safeguards regarding things like search and seizure. So a not guilty plea can just mean you (the prosecution) cannot legally prove I am guilty. You can't take the words "not guilty" literally. It has a specific legal meaning, which basically is "you can't prove it." Remember, not guilty does not mean innocent. We don't have an innocent plea in this country.
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Jul 30, 2010 17:20
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Abugadu posted:I'm inactive in two jurisdictions now, more because I didn't want to pay active membership fees than because of any CLE stuff. It's such a stupid sunk cost, because I'm not planning to practice in either of the two, but "you never know", and I wouldn't want to pay/take the bar again. I was licenced in WI and MN, but I just withdrew from MN altogether. I don't practice anymore, and they make you do CLEs even if you're inactive. It just wasn't worth it anymore now that I don't have a firm paying my dues. I considered going inactive in WI too, but am going to stay active for now. I figure you never know when you might need to do something.
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Aug 4, 2010 02:01
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gvibes posted:For our OCI, we have a GPA floor, but above that, there's a lot of discretion left to the interviewer. I had an OCI interview where I got the rejection letter in the mail the next day. So they must have decided "no" ahead of time and prepared the letter to mail right after the interview. Hell, maybe they mailed it before the interview. I had actually thought it went pretty well too. I was pretty pissed off about that.
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Aug 12, 2010 15:59
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HooKars posted:Soooo... I got an offer at one of the firms I interviewed at last month! Great news! Which one was it -- you interviewed in St. Louis and Philly, right?
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Aug 13, 2010 00:42
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Neurosis posted:From people's experiences, if you make a careless error in your cover letter for clerkship will that ever make a decisive difference? I ask because I'm batch sending off shitloads of them for summer clerkships and I've already noticed a couple of errors that crept into my cover letters. E.g. I put "Allens" instead of "Allen" in Allen & Overy (there is a firm here that IS Allens, and google misled me by filling in "Allens and Overy", yes, I know I'm dumb for not checking it more thoroughly). I can't believe anyone actually asks this question, and would even consider sending out resumes with spelling errors. Yes, it will make a difference. There are tons of people applying for jobs, which means employers are looking for reasons to narrow down the applicants. Spelling errors look like you don't care and don't pay attention to detail. My uncle used to review resumes where he worked, and he once told me that a spelling error in a cover letter or resume meant it automatically went in the trash.
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Aug 13, 2010 14:47
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HooKars posted:Yep. Same hours, lower pay, and they bill me out at normal associate rates. From what you've said previously, it doesn't sound like you want to be in a firm forever anyway, so this seems like a pretty good deal even if the pay is lower. At least you don't have to worry about putting on an appearance of being partnership material, and it's easier to find a job when you have a job.
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Aug 13, 2010 17:10
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HooKars posted:First day of being employed! Welcome back to the working world! My classes started a couple of weeks ago, and this non-law firm life is pretty awesome. Yesterday, I got up at 10 and today I got up at 9. I teach until 9pm, so that kinda sucks, but I'm not going to complain.
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Aug 31, 2010 16:53
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On the newest season of Hell's Kitchen, there's a contestant whose title is "law firm chef." Do biglaw firms really have their own kitchen/chef? I'd never heard of such a thing.
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Sep 24, 2010 17:48
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blar posted:You just ensured that your last semester of law school will be spent studying one of the most excruciating areas of law. These cases get so boring that the judges writing the opinions sometimes break down into quoting bad movies or comparing ligers to tigons etc. Did you at least take it pass/fail? This is true. I teach Admin. and I hate it because it's so boring. I have a hard time staying awake myself, so I can only imagine what the students are going through. I compensate by letting them out early most of the time. It's pretty terrible.
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Sep 28, 2010 00:13
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The Rokstar posted:I'm actually looking at a corporate job that would be better lifestyle-wise with some law firm jobs as fallbacks, it's just looking like one of the law firm jobs may come to fruition well before the corporate job and I'm going to have to make a really tough choice about things. If you are already worried about lawfirm lifestyle, I'd hold out for something else if you at all possibly can. There's still pressure to bill, even if you have a lower number to meet, and they make expect you to be quite a bit above the minimum regardless. Plus there is pressure to bring in clients, which takes up additional time if you're expected to do that. I was stuck in law firms for 5 years, and never had a set hour goal to meet. I still hated it.
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Oct 4, 2010 21:04
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CaptainScraps posted:I got a panko crusted schnitzel with red cabbage, homemade sauerkraut, curry ketchup, spicy mustard and mushroom gravy. I'm going down to my school's cafeteria, to eat what can only loosely be categorized as food.
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Oct 7, 2010 19:45
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HooKars posted:I will probably try to stay here for a year, if only for the sheer fact that I have lived in five different states since March of 2009. Wow, that sounds incredibly frustrating! And how dare you take actual initiative and try to find work to do. Yikes. Law firms suck.
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Nov 16, 2010 03:22
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