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knees of putty posted:My problem with those two characters is not that they show how ridiculous they are (they do), but that it is difficult to see how they could ever got to be a) like that and b) survive in that world. He has plucked out stereotypes from the fantasy genre and has inserted them into situations where clearly they are unable to cope. They would have changed to be more pragmatic or failed and died long before that. This, I'm afraid, is bad writing. They're simply not believable and all entertainment from those characters derive from laughing at their stupidity. Whilst you might read into this text some critique of gender roles, and fair play if you do, it's hard to support the idea that this is Martin's intention and it's more likely a product of his terrible writing. (Yes I know, the author is dead etc., but that doesn't take away from Martin being a terrible writer). Eddard is tragically bad at intrigue because he has no 'training' in it. Robert mentions somewhere that the region Eddard controls is 'as big as the other 6 kingdoms combined.' And one man controls it, not because he was very clever, but because no-one else wants it. The other 6 kingdoms are much closer to each other and thus are more prone to intrigue amongst themselves, while Eddard has been mostly isolated for his entire reign.
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| # ? Jun 2, 2010 15:24 |
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| # ? May 18, 2013 10:13 |
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What he said above is completely true. He doesn't need to play at intrigue because his best bud in the whole world is the king, he has no desire to get more than he has, and no one wants what he's already got. Also, the last time Eddard played at intrigue, it resulted in a horrible civil war. Plus, his actions directly lead to the brutal murder of children (and surprise sex of their mother!). His biggest mistake is assuming that the other characters will want to avoid that happening again because they lived through the same events he did. Unfortunately, it appears that noble Eddard was the only one to learn that lesson.
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| # ? Jun 2, 2010 15:29 |
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For some reason I never have a problem with Eddard, even if his nobility and honor wind up getting him killed. I think all of my hatred was focused on Sansa so I never got very worked up about him.  Also I'm reading the books on Kindle and never really took a serious glance at the world map as a result. It's interesting to see just how big Ned's territory is in comparison to the others, though like Robert said, 'nobody else wants it'. Edit: while I'm at it, are there any maps of the Free Cities where Dany is hanging out? Space Racist fucked around with this message at Jun 2, 2010 around 15:48 |
| # ? Jun 2, 2010 15:44 |
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knees of putty posted:Not at all. Prophecy is a problem because it's lazy. The author no longer has to provide a motivation apart from "the old crone told me he would be king/emporer/saviour/whatever". Not sure why that was spoilered. In any case, you are kind of assuming that a prophecy means events are set in stone. Perhaps they are reflections of possible futures. Perhaps they have no more power than what people who believe grant them. Perhaps they are partially true, or misinterpreted.
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| # ? Jun 2, 2010 15:44 |
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It's really more a preconception of the reader that GRRM is being lazy by using prophecy as a plot device. Remember, these books do a really good job of deconstructing the fantasy genre, so anytime you think you know what's going to happen, you're actually probably incredibly wrong.
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| # ? Jun 2, 2010 15:50 |
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knees of putty posted:Not at all. Prophecy is a problem because it's lazy. The author no longer has to provide a motivation apart from "the old crone told me he would be king/emporer/saviour/whatever". Man I sure hope you said that before you finished the first book.
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| # ? Jun 2, 2010 15:52 |
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knees of putty posted:My problem with those two characters is not that they show how ridiculous they are (they do), but that it is difficult to see how they could ever got to be a) like that and b) survive in that world. He has plucked out stereotypes from the fantasy genre and has inserted them into situations where clearly they are unable to cope. They would have changed to be more pragmatic or failed and died long before that. They're simply not believable and all entertainment from those characters derive from laughing at their stupidity. The Starks are clearly defined enough that I felt like Ned was a very believable character. He was always kind of moody and formal, and being raised by a family whose motto is "Winter is Coming" and who prefer to perform executions themselves would not help a person lighten up. It would only constantly reinforce their belief in duty and honor. And then to have the lordship thrust upon you when your brother is murdered by a mad king would probably prevent you from seeing power as anything but a curse and a burden. I mean, I get Ned--I understand his motivations even though I could never see myself making those same decisions. As for the other stuff you said, I won't spoil anything, but you have to remember that Westeros has been experiencing a reign of unprecedented peace when you start the story. So no, people wouldn't "have changed to be more pragmatic or failed and died long before that" because there was no conflict for a long time (at least a decade, if not longer). That's like saying that Frodo and Sam aren't believable characters when we meet them in Hobbiton because they haven't been changed by their journey through Mordor. They haven't started their quest yet, so it's unfair to rag on them for not having arrived at certain important self-realizations. So characters like Ned and Sansa might not be relatable but to say that they aren't believable is just wrong. Both those characters are some of the most keenly-defined people in the series, precisely because they're so oblivious to their own short-comings. Again, not every single character can be Tyrion. I don't want this to come across as me telling you how you should feel about these characters, just trying to convince you to give them more of a chance. Sansa in particular is extremely annoying, but in a very understandable way. And watching her try to maintain that attitude in the face of what's to come makes some of the most interesting chapters in the entire series. knees of putty posted:Whilst you might read into this text some critique of gender roles, and fair play if you do, it's hard to support the idea that this is Martin's intention and it's more likely a product of his terrible writing. (Yes I know, the author is dead etc., but that doesn't take away from Martin being a terrible writer). Also, it's not about the gender roles. It's about how Westerosi society is built on certain familiar social configurations (political marriages, gendered division of roles, feudal social hierarchies, etc.) that crop up in a lot of fantasy settings and how those configurations, more often that not, wind up failing the characters that rigidly adhere to them. The most successful characters in ASOIAF are the ones who first acknowledge the existence of those attitudes and then set out to carve their own paths. Characters like Arya, Tyrion, Cersei, Jaime, Samwell, Brienne and so on. Characters who understand that they're failing or choosing not to live up to the role that society dictates they should occupy, and in doing so usually wind up stronger because of it. Sure, more often than not these same characters are demonized and villified by both the nobility and the smallfolk but that's not bad writing that's excellent characterization and world-building. Medieval smallfolk WOULD be freaked out by the idea of a female knight just like they WOULD be inherently suspicious of dwarves and midgets. So I think you should really try giving Martin the benefit of the doubt because I rarely find that he employs fantasy tropes without at least trying to subvert them, or use them to place familiar characters in unfamiliar situations and see how they respond. knees of putty posted:This, I'm afraid, is bad writing. Then you have clearly never read anything that was poorly written, because complaining about Ned's lack of character development, or its mishandling, is ridiculous. Sorry. kanonvandekempen posted:Eddard is tragically bad at intrigue because he has no 'training' in it. Robert mentions somewhere that the region Eddard controls is 'as big as the other 6 kingdoms combined.' And one man controls it, not because he was very clever, but because no-one else wants it. The other 6 kingdoms are much closer to each other and thus are more prone to intrigue amongst themselves, while Eddard has been mostly isolated for his entire reign. And that's even more apparent once Eddard arrives at King's Landing and joins the Small Council. He frequently comments about how ill-prepared he is for the kind of intrigue that seems to be the norm there, and again this is all perfectly consistent with what we've already learned about the character just by watching him run his own part of the kingdom. Astfgl fucked around with this message at Jun 2, 2010 around 16:28 |
| # ? Jun 2, 2010 16:17 |
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TheKingslayer posted:Man I sure hope you said that before you finished the first book. Yes, I finished the last few chapters today and I'm happy to admit that it was nice to be wrong on that one. @Zombie_Lincoln: I spoilered it because it's a plot point that comes before where we're officially up to (I think). Better safe than sorry. Haraksha posted:It's really more a preconception of the reader that GRRM is being lazy by using prophecy as a plot device. Remember, these books do a really good job of deconstructing the fantasy genre, so anytime you think you know what's going to happen, you're actually probably incredibly wrong. He's not deconstructing anything. You could, for example, deconstruct his text and find an opposition between say, fantasy tropes and the modern view of gender roles, but it would be wrong to claim that he is analysing anything. Creating stereotypes, badly characterising them and creating a tension as a result of that is lovely writing. I'd be glad to praise him as a mighty satiricist commenting on the parlous state of fantasy and fantasy fans, but it doesn't seem convincing to me. Astfgl posted:So I think you should really try giving Martin the benefit of the doubt because I rarely find that he employs fantasy tropes without at least trying to subvert them, or use them to place familiar characters in unfamiliar situations and see how they respond. I'm in for the duration, so he's got my money if not my appreciation! Astfgl posted:Then you have clearly never read anything that was poorly written, because complaining about Ned's lack of character development, or its mishandling, is ridiculous. Sorry. Shrug. I suppose I could make an unsubstantiated claim about you never having read anything well written, but that would be ridiculous too! Anyway, finished. Enjoyable light entertainment. I was expecting more lemon cakes though, what gives?
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| # ? Jun 2, 2010 20:59 |
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knees of putty posted:Anyway, finished. Enjoyable light entertainment. I was expecting more lemon cakes though, what gives? There are still over 3,000 pages of the story left for you, my friend, and any number of those pages could have lemon cakes.
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| # ? Jun 2, 2010 21:09 |
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knees of putty posted:He's not deconstructing anything. You could, for example, deconstruct his text and find an opposition between say, fantasy tropes and the modern view of gender roles, but it would be wrong to claim that he is analysing anything. Creating stereotypes, badly characterising them and creating a tension as a result of that is lovely writing. I'd be glad to praise him as a mighty satiricist commenting on the parlous state of fantasy and fantasy fans, but it doesn't seem convincing to me. Whatever guy. He intentionally included something in the story to play off the preconceptions of the reader based on what they expected out of the genre and then totally turned the tables on them, and he'll do this over and over again throughout the story. Call it whatever you want, he's intentionally messing with the reader's expectations.
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| # ? Jun 3, 2010 02:06 |
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Haraksha posted:Whatever guy. He intentionally included something in the story to play off the preconceptions of the reader based on what they expected out of the genre and then totally turned the tables on them, and he'll do this over and over again throughout the story. I wonder if readers that are unfamiliar with the fantasy genre in general would have the same expectations as someone who is. I mean, I have been reading fantasy novels since I was in middle school and have read way too much fantasy since then. Perhaps Knees on putty is not a typical fantasy reader and entered the series with a different set of expectations than you or I. I suppose even then he would have had to avoid fantasy cliches in general, which would be pretty difficult since they are common in so many forms of entertainment (movies, books, TV, etc).
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| # ? Jun 3, 2010 03:07 |
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Well, the way he talked about prophecy as a lazy plot device leads me to believe he is, at the very least, casually familiar with the tropes of the genre.
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| # ? Jun 3, 2010 04:08 |
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Karter705 posted:I suppose even then he would have had to avoid fantasy cliches in general, which would be pretty difficult since they are common in so many forms of entertainment (movies, books, TV, etc). The cliches aren't really fantasy or sci-fi only, anymore. There are certain archetypes that show up in a thousand types of films, books, and tv shows. Martin does flip these around quite a bit.
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| # ? Jun 3, 2010 04:45 |
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I think a lot of people overlook that Sansa was only 12 and being actively manipulated by one of the most powerful people in the kingdom and that Ned gets severely and repeatedly let down by Roberts uselessness.
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| # ? Jun 3, 2010 08:48 |
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knees of putty posted:I was expecting more lemon cakes though, what gives? I am on my second read through and now I am noticing the lemon cakes a lot more (at least 5 in the first 300 pages, which is five too many.)
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| # ? Jun 3, 2010 09:41 |
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I just started rereading the books last night, hopefully I can catch up. I read these books (besides AFFC) when I was thirteen originally, and my favorite characters were the Starks, by far. I wonder if that will change.
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| # ? Jun 3, 2010 23:03 |
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I haven't noticed any lemon cakes yet and I'm a ways in. I feel like I subconsciously ignore a lot of description fluff though. Which is, I'm sure, how I tolerated the Harry Potter books at all. Definitely enjoying this - it seems to take a while to get started, but somehow it just sucked me in around page 100 or so. I'm really enjoying Dany's character development. Actually that whole storyline is really interesting, and I really enjoy how Viserys is characterized. Initially I had a lot of sympathy for him, but that went out the window around the point he sold his sister for an army. So I was pretty happy when Dany made him walk home, and then later I was ecstatic when she hit him in the face for being an rear end in a top hat. I used to hate fantasy books that got tied up in political machinations, but apparently I just hadn't found the right ones yet.
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| # ? Jun 3, 2010 23:23 |
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Ryouga Inverse posted:I used to hate fantasy books that got tied up in political machinations, but apparently I just hadn't found the right ones yet. It also adds an incredible amount of re-read value because there's a lot of nuance that gets missed the first time through, which makes for a minefield of eye-openers when you go through the series again. Also, it sounds like you're in for a treat if you're already finding yourself going, "I like character X. Oh wait I just read some more and now character X is a douche, but I'm totally cheering for character Y now!". If you're enjoying the characters that much already then the rest of the books should not disappoint!
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| # ? Jun 4, 2010 01:40 |
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I just finished the third book loved every page of it. My famous storyline so far was Arya's because her journey through the war-torn land is by far the most tense. And it gives you a little glimpse about what the little people are suffering through in times of war.
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| # ? Jun 4, 2010 22:55 |
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Onkel Hedwig posted:I just finished the third book loved every page of it. My famous storyline so far was Arya's because her journey through the war-torn land is by far the most tense. And it gives you a little glimpse about what the little people are suffering through in times of war. Yes, it feels almost like a post-apocalyptic novel. Then again, to people suffering a war in their backyards, it really IS the end of their world. Other than the battle of black water, this was one of the only parts I liked about CoK.
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| # ? Jun 4, 2010 23:48 |
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Ratios and Tendency posted:I think a lot of people overlook that Sansa was only 12 and being actively manipulated by one of the most powerful people in the kingdom and that Ned gets severely and repeatedly let down by Roberts uselessness. This. All the Sansa-hate seems really shallow. Kid gets manipulated by some pretty great manipulators. Her personality and gullibility in AGOT establishes a base for her character, and makes her growth and development through the series more interesting.
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| # ? Jun 5, 2010 00:08 |
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Paddyo posted:This. All the Sansa-hate seems really shallow. Kid gets manipulated by some pretty great manipulators. Her personality and gullibility in AGOT establishes a base for her character, and makes her growth and development through the series more interesting. That doesn't mean she needs to go on about the drat lemoncakes so often. 
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| # ? Jun 5, 2010 03:11 |
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Paddyo posted:This. All the Sansa-hate seems really shallow. Kid gets manipulated by some pretty great manipulators. Her personality and gullibility in AGOT establishes a base for her character, and makes her growth and development through the series more interesting. what growth and development?
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| # ? Jun 5, 2010 05:12 |
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Zamboni Jesus posted:what growth and development? Well she is just coming into her womanhood you know.
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| # ? Jun 5, 2010 14:35 |
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Well, compare the Sansa that sucks and pisses you off in AGOT with the one that develops later on. Like others have said, she starts off as a stereotypical Disney princess. She's frivolous and vapid and has no concept of the danger around her or the reality of the situation that her family finds itself in. I want to be careful not to spoil anything or get too far away from the AGOT discussion, but hell, look how every single one of her loving stupid notions get turned upside down and shattered by the end of the book. I mean, by the second and third books she's getting the poo poo beat out of her by Prince Charming for his kicks and the only people who show her any kindness are certainly not your typical knights in shining armor. Sansa sucks because GRRM is deconstructing her character-type, just like he does with Ned, Robert,and others later in the series. He's putting Snow White in the middle of dirty, bloody, hostile medieval reality and I for one think it's pretty interesting. Moreover, look at who she is by the end of AFFC. That scene where she calls Littlefinger out on Lyn Corbray is great. She's being tutored in scheming by the best schemers out there, and mark my words by the end of the series (Ha ha) she's going to be loving some people over for stone cold revenge. I really don't get why so many fans of this series hate on all the female POVs. They each have unique and interesting arcs and all show growth and complexity as characters.
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| # ? Jun 5, 2010 19:24 |
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It's just that it took books worth of character development to make Sansa into a non vapid character, and we had to sit through chapters of horrendously stupid decisions to get there, I just hope the payoff will be worthwhile.
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| # ? Jun 5, 2010 21:08 |
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I'm way ahead at the part where King Robert gets bitten by that boar. I also realised there's a CCG for this book and I'm depressingly sure I'll invest in a deck once I finish reading this particular book... That's really sad. I know.
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| # ? Jun 5, 2010 22:37 |
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Viconia posted:I'm way ahead at the part where King Robert gets bitten by that boar. haha, I picked up a deck of that when I found out it existed too..but in my defense I was 15 and still in my M:TG phase. Game wasn't that bad either, just no one else played.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2010 00:09 |
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Mr Crustacean posted:It's just that it took books worth of character development to make Sansa into a non vapid character, and we had to sit through chapters of horrendously stupid decisions to get there, I just hope the payoff will be worthwhile. payoff? martin isn't going to finish so
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| # ? Jun 6, 2010 01:48 |
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C'mon bro, I thought this was the optimistic thread...
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| # ? Jun 6, 2010 04:27 |
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Viconia posted:I'm way ahead at the part where King Robert gets bitten by that boar. And let me tell you, there's nothing as poisonous as a boar's bite!
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| # ? Jun 6, 2010 05:36 |
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Viconia posted:I'm way ahead at the part where King Robert gets bitten by that boar. Shannon was stabbed. Also, I can't speak for the CCG, but the board game is pretty nifty in a strategy-lite sort of way.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2010 06:12 |
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Yeah, I'm way ahead now.. I'm only getting ahead now because i nkow in about a week I'll have 5 days where I can't read at all as I'll be busy with other things. Anywho, I'm at Bran VI, basically where Sansa has been a twat and is all a bitch to the queen, Eddard is NO MORE! (Petyr, I always knew were a fag), and Jon's being treated worse now that he's a "traitors" son . I will say, I really couldn't stop reading this book! Bar the prose, I really like the story and how it's turning out. Regarding the CCG game, I'll see if there's a local group of people who play it or at the next convention. Otherwise, I'll probably check out the board game.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2010 13:30 |
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Had you been spoiled about Ned dying?? Seeing people's reactions to that the first time is my second favourite part of getting friends to read the series after the Red Wedding.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2010 14:28 |
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Rhgr posted:Had you been spoiled about Ned dying?? Seeing people's reactions to that the first time is my second favourite part of getting friends to read the series after the Red Wedding. I have to read the "bad" thread on a daily basis. I think I know every plot spoiler there is. and it's not like I want to read it, but I have to 
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| # ? Jun 6, 2010 14:35 |
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Ha, I would have been like "Um, I want to read these books someday, can YOU mod this".
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| # ? Jun 6, 2010 15:20 |
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drat, I completely forgot about this. I'm still on page 100 or so. Did we ever figure out if those dates were read by or start on dates? I just need to know how far behind I am.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2010 20:52 |
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Conduit for Sale! posted:drat, I completely forgot about this. I'm still on page 100 or so. I'm pretty sure you start the chapters listed on the date they are listed under. While we are a few weeks into the read I just want to send a warning to people buying the books for the first time and say: "AVOID THE BANTAM TRADE PAPERBACK," copies. From my experience thus far, this has been the worst quality I've ever seen in a book. Granted it's a $15 trade paperback but still, this poo poo shouldn't be happening.  Click here for the full 640x480 image. As I've been reading (every 5-10 pages or so) the pages come unglued from the top of the binding, so they're beginning to fall out. Just a heads up. On a different note, I just finished the chapter where Littlefinger brings Ned to the brothel where Catelyn is stying and I can't put it down for the life of me.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2010 22:36 |
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Viconia posted:I have to read the "bad" thread on a daily basis. I think I know every plot spoiler there is. and it's not like I want to read it, but I have to What in that bad thread is actually being moderated, and why is it 'free for all'? not that I'm complaining. Also, sorry you have to read it against your will 
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| # ? Jun 7, 2010 04:13 |
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| # ? May 18, 2013 10:13 |
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redreader posted:What in that bad thread is actually being moderated, and why is it 'free for all'? not that I'm complaining. Also, sorry you have to read it against your will To make sure none of us are driving to GRRM's house and leaving a bag of poo poo on his doorstep I guess.
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| # ? Jun 7, 2010 04:22 |
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