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fatherdog posted:I said it was a bad idea when they did it on Affliction 1, and was proved right when their second show sold worse than their first. So how would it have been a better idea for Affliction to make Fedor - Barnett as soon as possible? Would they have attracted more viewers? Guaranteed long term success? I'd really like to hear your argument how an immediate Fedor - Barnett matchup would have been better than trying to build both fighters up.
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| # ? Jun 26, 2010 21:08 |
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| # ? May 25, 2013 15:26 |
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MassRayPer posted:Those higher name value fighters such as: Remember that's legitimate top 10 heavyweight Brett Rogers.
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| # ? Jun 26, 2010 21:10 |
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MassRayPer posted:Those higher name value fighters such as: They could have done Fedor/Belfort instead of canceling, Vitor took the fight. Vitor Belfort is a much bigger draw than Josh Barnett. Vitor Belfort is a relevant (middleweight) fighter. Of course Vadim didn't want the Belfort fight soooooo
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| # ? Jun 26, 2010 21:11 |
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am0kgonzo posted:So how would it have been a better idea for Affliction to make Fedor - Barnett as soon as possible? Would they have attracted more viewers? Guaranteed long term success? I'd really like to hear your argument how an immediate Fedor - Barnett matchup would have been better than trying to build both fighters up. You can't build fighters up with just PPV. You need free TV to do that. I personally think Affliction made the right call in doing Fedor vs former UFC stars first and doing Barnett last since Sylvia was only going to mean less and less as time went on and I don't think it mattered when you tried to do Arlovski vs Fedor. But there was no "building up" to do since if you just have PPV your audience is going to stay pretty much the same, or likely slightly decline on your subsequent shows. But I don't think it makes any difference and isn't worth even arguing over.
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| # ? Jun 26, 2010 21:12 |
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am0kgonzo posted:So how would it have been a better idea for Affliction to make Fedor - Barnett as soon as possible? Would they have attracted more viewers? With the Monson fight fresh in people's minds I'm pretty sure Fedor vs a broom could have done better numbers than Fedor/Sylvia.
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| # ? Jun 26, 2010 21:44 |
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jeffersonlives posted:They could have done Fedor/Belfort instead of canceling, Vitor took the fight. Vitor Belfort is a much bigger draw than Josh Barnett. Vitor Belfort is a relevant (middleweight) fighter. M-1 preferred Rogers, but accepted Belfort as an opponent. It was Affliction who pulled the plug on the event because they wanted back in with the UFC. There was also pressure from their PPV provider Showtime to cancel. Droopy Goines fucked around with this message at Jun 26, 2010 around 21:51 |
| # ? Jun 26, 2010 21:48 |
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fatherdog posted:With the Monson fight fresh in people's minds I'm pretty sure Fedor vs a broom could have done better numbers than Fedor/Sylvia. Sylvia fought Monson about 2 years before he fought Fedor, how was that fight fresh in people's minds?
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| # ? Jun 26, 2010 21:51 |
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Droopy Goines posted:M-1 preferred Rogers, but accepted Belfort as an opponent. It was Affliction who pulled the plug on the event because they wanted back in with the UFC. Also because they were going to lose more money by running the event than not running the event. Point being for business that Fedor means nothing and the "use Affliction 1 and 2 to build to Affliction 3" strategy was a disaster long before Barnett pissed hot. It's never been clear that Fedor would have agreed to fight Belfort, the story on that was changing by the hour and they were clearly reaching for a different opponent. The nominal reason Vadim was pushing for Rogers was a Sherdog poll, although one can come to their own conclusion as to whether that's true or not. am0kgonzo posted:Sylvia fought Monson about 2 years before he fought Fedor, how was that fight fresh in people's minds? Apparently you've never seen that fight. If you have, it never leaves your consciousness.
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| # ? Jun 26, 2010 21:56 |
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jeffersonlives posted:They could have done Fedor/Belfort instead of canceling, Vitor took the fight. Vitor Belfort is a much bigger draw than Josh Barnett. Vitor Belfort is a relevant (middleweight) fighter. At that point? How. Vitor stopped fighting for UFC before the boom. Yes things were more dire when Barnett was around, but Vitor as a heavyweight had the same loving fanbase Barnett did, hardcores who'd buy Affliction anyway. Vitor Belfort came into the UFC during the dark days, and left just before it got popular. On top of that he had less visibility on Affliction shows than Barnett and was a Middleweight. Neither of them were a draw in August of 2009 in the US, and Barnett was at least a heavyweight fighter who had a decent record and a win over Nog. And I am pretty sure Vadim wanted Belfort after an internet poll showed him leading as the favored replacement.
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| # ? Jun 26, 2010 22:00 |
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the reason the ppv fell apart is because they were affiliated with showtime ppv, ken hershman didn't give it the green light
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| # ? Jun 26, 2010 22:07 |
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MassRayPer posted:At that point? How. Vitor stopped fighting for UFC before the boom. Yes things were more dire when Barnett was around, but Vitor as a heavyweight had the same loving fanbase Barnett did, hardcores who'd buy Affliction anyway. Vitor Belfort came into the UFC during the dark days, and left just before it got popular. On top of that he had less visibility on Affliction shows than Barnett and was a Middleweight. Belfort was a UFC star both before and after Barnett, and Barnett was only a star during the darkest period. Belfort's original "phenom" run was right at the tail end of SEG UFC's original run of relevance. Zuffa-era UFC was already swinging back up before TUF, and Belfort headlined twice against Couture and once against Ortiz in that period. And all of those Belfort KOs have aired a bazillion times on Unleashed and other Spike specials. I don't know what relevance Barnett going 1-1 in PRIDE against Nogueira has to Josh Barnett's drawing power particularly. Belfort's not a huge star but to suggest that at any point he's been less of a star than Josh Barnett is pretty dumb. quote:And I am pretty sure Vadim wanted Belfort after an internet poll showed him leading as the favored replacement. It was Rogers they wanted after the poll, and it was a Sherdog poll of all things.
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| # ? Jun 26, 2010 22:20 |
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jeffersonlives posted:Belfort was a UFC star both before and after Barnett, and Barnett was only a star during the darkest period. Belfort's original "phenom" run was right at the tail end of SEG UFC's original run of relevance. Zuffa-era UFC was already swinging back up before TUF, and Belfort headlined twice against Couture and once against Ortiz in that period. And all of those Belfort KOs have aired a bazillion times on Unleashed and other Spike specials. I don't know what relevance Barnett going 1-1 in PRIDE against Nogueira has to Josh Barnett's drawing power particularly. You said he was a much bigger draw than Barnett. He wasn't. The PPVs he headlined against Couture and Ortiz did bad numbers. 80-100,000. This is pretty much in keeping with what they were doing throughout the 40s. UFC was not "swinging up" during this period, they were trying a last ditch experiment in TUF which if it failed would be the end of Zuffa UFC. In 2009 he was known as a complete headcase who had finally found himself at middleweight, maybe. Your claim was that Belfort was a much bigger draw and that is bullshit. He hadn't drawn better than average in his UFC run on shows that did buyrates lower than Affliction was pulling. His fights in UFC also weren't shown a ton on Unleashed because his biggest wins were from the dark days, or a cut stoppage against Randy. Was he better known to US fan than Josh? Yes. I don't dispute that. But it wasn't by a lot, and they knew him as a LHW or a MW. The people who were going to buy Affliction Trilogy were 100,000 hardcore who knew who both guys were. They knew one was two weight classes down from Fedor, while one was a heavyweight who had beaten the legendary Big Nog, something only Fedor had done in Pride.
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| # ? Jun 26, 2010 22:33 |
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Josh Barnett has headlined one American PPV in his life. It did either 35000 or 45000 buys depending on the source. He never headlined a PRIDE show, not that those did any business in America since most of the people who cared were hardcore enough to watch the live Japanese streams over the tape-delayed US PPVs. Belfort's drawing power isn't great, but he's got a heck of a lot better track record for business than Josh Barnett. This is, of course, not a high hurdle. I also don't know what value "beating Nog in a questionable split decision" really has considering anyone who saw that show also saw him get killed by Cro Cop, then he turned around and lost a not-questionable decision to Nog in the rematch at Shockwave. eta: Droopy Goines posted:Belfort was even fighting on the undercard of the first Affliction event, then he killed Lindland at the second and people started noticing him again. Belfort was on the undercard because the undercard was televised and they wanted someone with name value in an attempt to garner late interest. jeffersonlives fucked around with this message at Jun 26, 2010 around 22:47 |
| # ? Jun 26, 2010 22:44 |
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PRIDE 32 had Fedor, Barnett, Belfort, Henderson and Shogun and they only sold 40000 PPVs. The UFC brand is the biggest draw in MMA, Barnett and Belfort were not in the UFC and therefore not huge draws in the US at the time. Belfort was even fighting on the undercard of the first Affliction event, then he killed Lindland at the second and people started noticing him again.
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| # ? Jun 26, 2010 22:46 |
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Mongolot posted:The only MMA shirt I own is that sweet-rear end Korean Zombie shirt, because I feel like anyone who actually recognizes it deserves a high-five to say the least. Once I walked up to this kid wearing a 39 shirt to compliment him and he was still a massive tool. projecthalaxy posted:Reads to me like there's a fight org called The Fighting System of the World and yet again Fedor is the paper champion of that.
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| # ? Jun 26, 2010 23:18 |
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jeffersonlives posted:I also don't know what value "beating Nog in a questionable split decision" really has considering anyone who saw that show also saw him get killed by Cro Cop, then he turned around and lost a not-questionable decision to Nog in the rematch at Shockwave. Bold part should read: "beating Nog in the greatest heavyweight fight of all time as well as hanging in there in a pretty compelling rematch" The reason Fedor should have fought Barnett is the fact that he was the best available competition at the time and posed the greatest threats to him. Sorry, to be an all time great you have to push yourself, take on all comers, and seek out the very best competition you can.
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| # ? Jun 26, 2010 23:23 |
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Fedor is one of the top 3-4 heavyweights. While Fedor is probably not (or only barely) a top 5 heavyweight in fighting ability, he is pretty clearly one of the most accomplished heavyweights in the world. If you assume the proper standard for rating fighters is their accomplishments, rather than an opinion of how they'd do in hypothetical matchups, then one could make a good case for Fedor in the top 3. Fedor's opponents have all gone on losing streaks after he beat them, somewhat devaluing those wins, but nobody at heavyweight is really racking up a ton of "quality" wins, and the wins of his UFC counterparts over Big Nog, 205 pound old man Couture and even to an extent FSM3 and Gonzaga would be similarly devalued by the declines (or declines in weight class) of those fighters. Sherdog's Top 10 Heavyweights and their accomplishments since 2008; 1. Fedor Emelianenko (31-1, 1 NC) Win Brett Rogers Win Andrei Arlovski Win Tim Sylvia 2. Brock Lesnar (4-1) Win Frank Mir Win Randy Couture Win Heath Herring Loss Frank Mir 3. Cain Velasquez (8-0) Win Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira Win Ben Rothwell Win Cheick Kongo 4. Shane Carwin (12-0) Win Frank Mir Win Gabriel Gonzaga 5. Frank Mir (13-5) Loss Shane Carwin Win Cheick Kongo Loss Brock Lesnar Win Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira Win Brock Lesnar 6. Junior dos Santos (11-1) Win Gabriel Gonzaga Win Gilbert Yvel Win Mirko Filipovic Win Stefan Struve Win Fabricio Werdum 7. Alistair Overeem (33-11, 1 NC) Win Brett Rogers Win Kazuyuki Fujita Win James Thompson Win Tony Sylvester Win Gary Goodridge NC Mirko Filipovic Win Mark Hunt Win Tae Hyun Lee 8. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira (32-6-1, 1 NC) Loss Cain Velasquez Win Randy Couture Loss Frank Mir Win Tim Sylvia 9. Fabricio Werdum (13-4-1) Win Antonio Silva Win Mike Kyle Loss Junior dos Santos Win Brandon Vera Win Gabriel Gonzaga 10. Antonio Silva (14-2) Win Andrei Arlovski Loss Fabricio Werdum I'm not going to debate this too heavily, but I did all this uninteresting fight finder/wikipedia checking, so I thought I'd post it for your mockery.
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| # ? Jun 26, 2010 23:33 |
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Ray Mercer beat Tim Sylvia faster than Feyder.
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| # ? Jun 26, 2010 23:37 |
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Gramps posted:Bold part should read: "beating Nog in the greatest heavyweight fight of all time as well as hanging in there in a pretty compelling rematch" Which is irrelevant to the actual discussion. Nobody actually saw either fight on this side of the pond, except the exact same people who were already watching the Affliction PPVs anyway. Two undercard PRIDE fights from 2006 really mattered to Josh Barnett's American drawing power in 2009? Were people pulling up Josh Barnett's fightfinder and going "wow, he went 1-1 against a guy Fedor decisioned twice" or something? quote:The reason Fedor should have fought Barnett is the fact that he was the best available competition at the time and posed the greatest threats to him. Sorry, to be an all time great you have to push yourself, take on all comers, and seek out the very best competition you can. Fedor should have fought Barnett, sure. He also should have fought him in 2006 and 2007 and 2008. Fedor avoided that fight like the plague until it was the only legitimate option left. That's not the point. The point (aside from this Belfort vs. Barnett nonsense, which is essentially pointless arguing over which guy who isn't a draw is a bit less of a not draw) is that Barnett wasn't available, and that wasn't what killed the Affliction 3 show. Belfort would have done the same or marginally better business than Barnett on top. Affliction was a gigantic failure for the following reasons (probably not comprehensive): - They gave out huge deals like drunken sailors. - They had little television. - They built the promotion around Fedor, and Fedor isn't a big draw. - The big marquee fight was Fedor vs. Couture, which they were counting on despite not having Couture under contract and having little chance of getting Couture under contract. It's really hard to say Fedor's an American draw or Affliction's strategies were any sort of success when they decided it was cheaper to cancel a show, despite incurring significant costs to do so, than to actually run the show with Fedor headlining against someone who wasn't worse for business than the original opponent.
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| # ? Jun 27, 2010 00:02 |
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jeffersonlives posted:Fedor should have fought Barnett, sure. He also should have fought him in 2006 and 2007 and 2008. Fedor avoided that fight like the plague until it was the only legitimate option left. It was Barnett who didn't want to fight Fedor at Shockwave 2006. In 2007 PRIDE died and nobody knew what would happen. In 2008 Affliction came along and wanted to build up a Fedor/Barnett fight so they could afford to pay Barnett the billion dollars he demanded to fight Fedor.
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| # ? Jun 27, 2010 00:13 |
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 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH Save Russian Jews fucked around with this message at Jan 28, 2011 around 12:43 |
| # ? Jun 27, 2010 03:45 |
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 I guess that was Fedor's plan all along
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| # ? Jun 27, 2010 03:46 |
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| # ? Jun 27, 2010 03:47 |
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Durp a durp a dooooooo Fabricio Werdum all time greatest fighter
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| # ? Jun 27, 2010 03:47 |
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SUCK MY DICK
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| # ? Jun 27, 2010 03:47 |
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WOW
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| # ? Jun 27, 2010 03:47 |
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lol Fabricio Werdum lol
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| # ? Jun 27, 2010 03:47 |
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ducked overeem by losing to werdum poo poo is shameful
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| # ? Jun 27, 2010 03:47 |
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fedor lost to a middle of the pack UFC washout
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| # ? Jun 27, 2010 03:48 |
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I was going to make a "bump this thread every time Werdum ducks Overeem" thread but I don't wanna get banned 
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| # ? Jun 27, 2010 03:48 |
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KidDynamite posted:ducked overeem by losing to werdum poo poo is shameful quote to the end of forever
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| # ? Jun 27, 2010 03:48 |
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bump?
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| # ? Jun 27, 2010 03:48 |
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I got swept by Brett Rogers and leaped into a BJJ black belt's guard. Who am I
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| # ? Jun 27, 2010 03:49 |
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now he gonna retire
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| # ? Jun 27, 2010 03:49 |
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Close thread, no longer needed
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| # ? Jun 27, 2010 03:49 |
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goodbye "#1 heavyweight" goodbye "greatest fighter of all time" goodbye legacy MYTH BUSTED
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| # ? Jun 27, 2010 03:49 |
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gg guys
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| # ? Jun 27, 2010 03:49 |
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Malachamavet posted:I was going to make a "bump this thread every time Werdum ducks Overeem" thread but I don't wanna get banned you can go make that thread now
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| # ? Jun 27, 2010 03:51 |
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bump this thread every time Werdum ducks Overeem
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| # ? Jun 27, 2010 03:51 |
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| # ? May 25, 2013 15:26 |
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KidDynamite posted:ducked overeem by losing to werdum poo poo is shameful hmmm seems as though the hivemind is a bit vindicated Also Werdum don't want him none of Overeem
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| # ? Jun 27, 2010 03:52 |
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