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Fast Luck
Feb 2, 2003




quote:

Episode Threads:
Season 1: 1 + 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24
Season 2: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23
Season 3: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 + 23
Season 4: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 + 14
Season 5: 1 + 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 + 17
Season 6: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16

The most hotly debated thing about Lost right now is that a lot of questions weren't ever explicitly addressed. Some people think it was sloppy writing, and that we got teased with tantalizing mysteries that at times ended up getting dropped or not making sense. Others think even if that happened at times, that there's enough clues to figure most of these things out, and that other parts are meant to be ambiguous.

If you wanna hash out the leftover questions and what the answers seem to be let's do it here.

I'll try to update this post with a bunch of questions, answers to them, and if this thread gets long I'll try to link to the discussion.

This video is an example of a lot of questions some people think still need to be answered that we can talk about here.

Why did Juliet say 'it worked'?
As she was dying, she was able to see into the purgatory world, where the plane never crashed and they all were living different lives, and assumed the nuke worked in creating a new timeline. She also says 'it works' in that world when she helps Sawyer get the Apollo bar from the vending machine.

So what did the nuke do?
The nuke and/or Dharma's drilling into the electromagnetic pocket created The Incident. Whatever happened, happened, and they caused what they were trying to prevent. As a result of The Incident, the hatch was built, where entering the numbers safely manages the electromagnetic energy pocket, and turning the key is the more unknown "failsafe."

Who was in the other OUTRIGGER?
There was a deliberate decision that this wasn't worth answering on screen. However, the water bottles place the time travelers at some point after the Ajira flight landed. We know Widmore's people journeyed from the main island to Hydra island through some means, possibly using the outrigger boats. Therefore, it's reasonable to believe that during one of these trips, they opened fire on the time travelers.

Why did Jack let MIB do what he wanted with Desmond and the light?
Jack trusted that Desmond was brought to the island by Jacob for a reason. Ultimately, both he and MIB were right: Desmond was able to extinguish the light, which could help MIB escape by conventional means, but without the light, MIB had no special powers and was able to finally be killed. Jack's trust was rewarded, MIB was thwarted, and Jack was able to replace the "cork" and restore the light.

What was MIB's name?
"Samuel" was used in the casting call and early scripts, but it was eventually dropped, because thematically it was thought it worked better if he remained nameless.

What's the deal with all the Egyptian stuff?
We know the island has existed for a very long time. During that time, many have found it. Some, like Dharma, take a scientific approach. Others, like the Egyptians, built religious monuments, such as the Tawaret statue and the temple. This could have been done under an island guardian before Jacob, or during his reign. If Jacob/MIB came after the Egyptians, that probably means MIB is not the first smoke monster, as the Egyptians depicted him alongside the guardian of the afterlife in some of their engravings. This may have some basis since we know the Egyptians played some part in the stone work at the source and we've seen skeletons down there. Alternatively, the struggle between Jacob and MIB could have begun before the Egyptians arrived, as a date was never given.

Why wasn't character X in the church in the alt-purgatory?
Some characters like Michael were dead and stuck on the island as ghosts. Other characters were allowed to take part in the purgatory, but they were not ready to move on (see Ana Lucia and Ben, perhaps wishing to atone for past mistakes). For some, their island connections may not have been the most important in their lives, and they may be moving on with other people.

Who ran the Others: Ben or Dogen?
The Others were run by Ben, who was advised by Richard who had some contact with Jacob over the years. Ben took over leadership in the 90s when he had Widmore banished. During this time MIB began appearing to Ben, manipulating him into doing his bidding. Dogen lost his son and was brought to the island at some point, probably in the 90s. He was put in charge of the Temple, which appears to have been used as the Others home base prior to taking over Dharmaville. The Temple was protected by a special ring of ash, and Dharmaville was protected by sonar pylons. The Others seem to have accumulated a chunk of island lore: they understand the healing water imbued with light works and its side effects, they know some variation of the story of MIB's knife, and they are following some interpretation of the rule that MIB and Jacob cannot kill each other.

Why couldn't Ben kill Widmore?
Just as Jacob and MIB could not kill each other, and MIB could not directly kill candidates, one of the rules the Others followed was that they could not kill each other. Juliet was banished for killing a normal other. Alex was also killed by one of Widmore's men, shattering Ben's illusion that these rules held (at least for the Others). Furious, and sought revenge by attempting to kill Penny, and by the time Ben kills Widmore, Ben has completely abandoned Jacob and his rules, having already killed Jacob earlier.

Where did the Dharma food drop come from?
We saw Daniel testing a rocket from the freighter, and how it arrived 20 minutes after it should have. We later saw the dead doctor from the freighter arrive at the Island before he was killed by Keamy. So we see - there's some sort of time distortion field around the Island, and it's unpredictable. This explains why no airplane was seen at the time of the drop. The food drops also may have been made on a specific trajectory that put it on a very, very long time delay. Many drops could have been made as much as 20 years earlier. Additionally, in The Lost Experience, Alvar Hanso promises the food will be dropped in perpetuity.

Somebody fucked around with this message at Nov 18, 2012 around 01:48

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the balloon hoax
Oct 16, 2009


Did Horace's wife like her cabin?

geeves
Sep 16, 2004



the balloon hoax posted:

Did Horace's wife like her cabin?

Where else do you think Ethan was conceived?

Manos del Sino
Apr 12, 2004

Original Pony


How long was Hurley #1 before the first Mr. Cluck's franchise was opened on the island?

Vakal
May 11, 2008


Does anyone have a tally of total number of knockouts during the series?

I'm guess at least 45.

Robotnik DDS
Oct 31, 2004



I would recommend everyone who wants a deeper understanding of the show to watch and read about the ancillary productions. Missing Pieces is canon according to the creators and I have no reason to see why Mysteries of the Universe can't be as well. The Lost Experience goes too far into metafiction by saying the show itself is a conspiracy but if you ignore that particular part you can infer that the rest is real to a degree.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Lost_Experience

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Missing_Pieces

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Mys...of_the_Universe

The food drops I suppose will be answered later this year. And there will be the "canon" encyclopedia and the 20 extra minutes on the DVD which will answer some more questions. Signs point to Malcolm David Kelly having been in Hawaii to film scenes because Carlton and Damon seem to make a big deal out of him being in the finale at this event. However they are liars and who knows when what they say is the truth?

Robotnik DDS fucked around with this message at May 26, 2010 around 18:23

Smeep
Jan 20, 2004



Anxiously awaiting fan fiction where Vincent takes over for Hurley and rules for a thousand years.

Thenipwax
Jun 20, 2001

by Ozmaugh


This show really is ripe for a spinoff. I can see a prequel sort of series that deals with the people on the island before Jacob and MiB being successful. They wouldn't have to worry about messing up any continuity of the original series (not like that ever mattered anyway), and they've got a pretty good framework for the show already set.

DrVenkman
Dec 27, 2005


Why is Eloise Hawking a timelord?

I know the official explanation for Aaron/The Psychic was that he was a fraud. But it doesn't explain why he pays for her Plane ticket because the baby was in danger. They clearly threw in "He's crazy!" well after the fact because it almost works.

Honestly there are some things I couldn't give a poo poo about (The skeletons - why did so many people get hung up on that) and there are some things that point to bigger problems with the writing of the show (The outrigger - They can spin it however they want but that was just loving lazy on their part).

Most frustrating of all is the Dharma initiative. They got to be such a big part of the show that it's going to hurt future viewings knowing it'll go loving nowhere. The bigger problem? Half the cast spend 3 YEARS with them and we don't learn a loving thing.

the
Jul 18, 2004
UNDEAD NED STARK KILLED JOFFERY TYWIN STRANGLES MARGAERY OTHER FAKE SPOILERS JUST WATCH THE SHOW

Robotnik DDS
Oct 31, 2004



Thenipwax posted:

This show really is ripe for a spinoff. I can see a prequel sort of series that deals with the people on the island before Jacob and MiB being successful. They wouldn't have to worry about messing up any continuity of the original series (not like that ever mattered anyway), and they've got a pretty good framework for the show already set.

It really does seem like they move ahead right when something interesting to mystery-heads starts. I would love to see Jacob's game between Across the Sea and Ab Aeterno. Jacob seeing MiB take his human form again for the first time would be such a powerful moment. Plus there's seeing the trial and error of learning their powers and the different civilizations on the island.

I would also have killed for like even one scene of Faraday in Ann Arbor with The Degroots or something.

Another thing I think needs a lot of fleshing out is The Others. Their leadership under Ben is so odd. Do you think Dogen was his second in command or were the temple people a separate faction from the DHARMAvillers? Did Cindy and the kids require brainwashing in Room 23? Is the brainwashing why they are all cool with the "Kill Your Dad To Be The Boss" thing? How does Richard fit in to all of this? I am also fascinated with how Ben just kind of adapted all the DHARMA stuff to his own purposes wholesale and how he and Widmore built their connections off island.

Manos del Sino
Apr 12, 2004

Original Pony


Robotnik DDS posted:

Did Cindy and the kids...

...survive?

I am drawing a complete blank as to what to happened to them after they joined UnLocke. I remember seeing them a few times on walkabout with Smokey, but then they were just gone.

Smeep
Jan 20, 2004



I never followed any of the extra stuff, but did they ever do graphic novel tie-ins? Seems like that is a natural, if they want to continue the story.

the
Jul 18, 2004
UNDEAD NED STARK KILLED JOFFERY TYWIN STRANGLES MARGAERY OTHER FAKE SPOILERS JUST WATCH THE SHOW

Manos del Sino posted:

...survive?

I am drawing a complete blank as to what to happened to them after they joined UnLocke. I remember seeing them a few times on walkabout with Smokey, but then they were just gone.

Uh yeah, they just kinda... forgot... about them halfway through the 6th season. But then again... WALT!

Cindy is honestly the weirdest character because of the fact that she is one of the original survivors who joined the Others and then went to go live in the Temple and (presumably) survived the entire show, yet she's gotten about 10 minutes of total screen time.

Yannick_B
Oct 11, 2007


DrVenkman posted:

Why is Eloise Hawking a timelord?

Her son's diary that is filled with time thingamajigs and info he would have gotten from Desmond from The Constant.

DrVenkman posted:

I know the official explanation for Aaron/The Psychic was that he was a fraud. But it doesn't explain why he pays for her Plane ticket because the baby was in danger. They clearly threw in "He's crazy!" well after the fact because it almost works.

The baby wasnt in danger. The guy gave her all that money to go to "good people" but he was presumably bought off by them. (Or he contacted them first).

DrVenkman posted:

Most frustrating of all is the Dharma initiative. They got to be such a big part of the show that it's going to hurt future viewings knowing it'll go loving nowhere. The bigger problem? Half the cast spend 3 YEARS with them and we don't learn a loving thing.

We learn plenty of things. Ultimately, they were just like our cast, puttering around on the island and not quite knowing what they were dealing with. Also; assholes who play around with crazy energies.

geeves
Sep 16, 2004



DrVenkman posted:

Most frustrating of all is the Dharma initiative. They got to be such a big part of the show that it's going to hurt future viewings knowing it'll go loving nowhere. The bigger problem? Half the cast spend 3 YEARS with them and we don't learn a loving thing.

We knew most of what we knew about them before we even saw Dharmaville in its prime. All the videos were about what they had been able to achieve. We don't know what kind of experiments they performed in the Swan - perhaps none and its sole purpose was to push the button because of The Incident.

What we learned in Season 5 was that they weren't unlike The Others (perhaps a bit more welcoming to outsiders): a group of secretive, paranoid people who probably had no idea what they were doing half time. And, possibly, their only true success may have been the Orchid station and that they were able to prove that time travel could exist and make polar bears disappear.

We were shown when things were being built rather than their use (which we already knew) and that the Survivors were involved in The Incident and Eloise knew most of everything because of Daniel's diary.

Robotnik DDS
Oct 31, 2004



DrVenkman posted:

Why is Eloise Hawking a timelord?

She seems to basically be the highest level of knowledge in the show, doesn't she? According to Mysteries of the Universe she ran the church when DHARMA was still running it. This is also during the time when DHARMA and The Others were co-existing. I guess after her shooting Faraday and getting the book she wanted a deeper knowledge and maybe didn't "go over to the DHARMA side", but was at least a collaborator with them. I suppose she also had some high level conversations with her friend the monk and this is maybe how she can understand the spiritual side of things after her death.

Mysteries of the Universe also talks about the food drops. Alvar Hanso was an expert at the drops in general. It also talks about the church ordering tons of supplies while Hawking is running it. Since the church was the map to the island it can be inferred that perhaps Hawking was the one doing the food drops as well. Hawking really does seem to have the biggest picture of all and I wish they had gone into her backstory a little deeper.

DrVenkman posted:

I know the official explanation for Aaron/The Psychic was that he was a fraud. But it doesn't explain why he pays for her Plane ticket because the baby was in danger. They clearly threw in "He's crazy!" well after the fact because it almost works.

There is a deleted scene from the DVD set that confirms he was being paid $16,000 by the couple who wanted the baby. I can believe that he was either getting payout on delivery or a bonus perhaps if Claire came to LA. Maybe he was basically placing a large bet that his craziness would pay off.

DrVenkman posted:

Most frustrating of all is the Dharma initiative. They got to be such a big part of the show that it's going to hurt future viewings knowing it'll go loving nowhere. The bigger problem? Half the cast spend 3 YEARS with them and we don't learn a loving thing.

Do you have anything in particular you are interested in or just kind of general feeling that they wasted time on them. It's pretty crazy that we spent 3 years with an other (Juliet) in the DHARMA camps and learned nothing. I was at least hoping they would show some special knowledge they learned in the meantime after the time skip.

Robotnik DDS fucked around with this message at May 26, 2010 around 18:57

Robotnik DDS
Oct 31, 2004



Manos del Sino posted:

...survive?

I am drawing a complete blank as to what to happened to them after they joined UnLocke. I remember seeing them a few times on walkabout with Smokey, but then they were just gone.

They did say some people scattered into the jungle after the mortar attacks. I don't care about Cindy in particular, but I like to think the kids are living a nice new life under the Hurley regime or even going home for that matter.

The Saddest Robot
Apr 17, 2007


Robotnik DDS posted:

They did say some people scattered into the jungle after the mortar attacks. I don't care about Cindy in particular, but I like to think the kids are living a nice new life under the Hurley regime or even going home for that matter.

They could be dead from mortar strikes, or Smokey may have killed them after they served their purpose - which was to convince the candidates that he wasn't trying to kill them.

Bolian Blues
Nov 3, 2008


I think at some point Eloise must have gotten zapped with some of the same kind of energy Desmond got zapped with when he set off the fail safe. This would serve pretty neatly to explain her awareness. Maybe after she killed her son she tried to experiment with time travel, hoping to reverse things. At some point, maybe after getting unstuck in time as Desmond did, she came to the realisation this was impossible.

Also Daniel is probably her constant.

Actually come to think of it the main gap in answers/exposition take place in between 1977 and 2004. Eloise, Widmore vs. Ben, the cabin, the building of the Swan station, the "quarantine" etc. Makes sense I guess seeing as most of the main characters weren't part of the events during that time.

Oh and re: food drops. When they find the food drop, Sawyer makes a point of saying he didn't hear a plane the previous night. We also know from season 4 that there is a time discrepancy between the island and outside. Sometimes it's minutes, sometimes it's days... what if it could be decades? My theory is that Dharma knew they needed the Swan station supplied into the future. They calculated the exact points they needed to drop food palettes from a plane in order to have them arrive on the island at discrete intervals into the future. This kept the Swan Station supplied so it could continue to stop the world from ending.

Anonymous Zebra
Oct 21, 2005
Blending in like it ain't no thang

My problem isn't with how they tied up the show, but everything leading up to that ending. I LOVED the finale. It was beautiful, emotional, and caught all the themes of the show in a great way. I absolutely HATED the 6th season though.

I feel that the 6th Season was a production sleight-of-hand where the producers basically threw in a new plot that asked a bunch of new questions and then answered THOSE questions in a detailed manner all the while hoping to distract the viewers from the inconsistency of the show.

Did they answer what the Smoke Monster was? Yes.
But does that answer make sense with the creature's motivations early in the show? Not really.

This is a problem for me, because when I discuss this show with other people we always get bogged down arguing about the stupid stuff from Season 6, and almost feel like I need to ignore that season to talk about the themes of the show. Allow me to give an example:

The theme of faith vs. science was supposed to carry over the entire series with every mystery having an answer that lies on both sides.

The Smoke Monster was originally "The Cerberus System" (made by Dharma), but it was also related to Anubis and might also be older than Dharma. It could be stopped by a sonic fence (science), and by ash (magic). Whether the monster was an out control Dharma security system, or an ancient guardian of the island would be left to our own interpretations.

The Others were either mystical people connected to the island, or the remainder of Dharma. We were originally never going to be given answer to that. The Swan Hatch had Egyptian writing on the countdown...but "The Temple" was also a Dharma site. Two groups seemed really closely intertwined in the original concepts.

Richard is a time traveler who used the island's nature to skip through time. Or Richard is immortal due to some weird magic of the island. We didn't need this explained, because it could be either.

The whispers were a way for the Others to watch the survivors, or a result of Dharma running experiments with fields on the island. (sidebar: The whispers were originally the Others. They were only changed into the shite explanation we received when S6 was written).

The "secret" of the island was a source of exotic energy, or it was a secret magical light. Thankfully they actually kept this vague.

My problem was that they went and explained some of these things waaaaaaaaay to far onto one side (almost entirely magic) while spending no time at all on several old parts of the mythos. It was just really unbalanced.

Anonymous Zebra
Oct 21, 2005
Blending in like it ain't no thang

My point is that I realize that they answered some of the questions, but a lot of those answers lacked the elegance and complexity of the early parts of the show.

Teek
Aug 7, 2006

The Running King


A couple of questions which I believe we can hash out fairly reasonable answers:

Who was in the other outrigger? The water bottles place the time travelers at some point after the Ajira flight landed. We know Widmore's people journeyed from the main island to Hydra island through some means, possibly using the outrigger boats. (I don't think they'd use the sub for this) During one of these trips, they opened fire on the time travelers.

What was MiB's name? "Samuel" was used in the casting call and early scripts, but it was eventually dropped by the writers, thinking it worked better if he remained nameless. There's a chance he may be given a name on the season DVD/BR release or in the upcoming book. If he remains nameless, it still works thematically.

Who built the Taweret statue, the Temple, the cork pedestal at the Source, etc.? At some point Egyptians made it to the island through some means. Unable to fully grasp the nature of many of the island EM related mysteries, they began to build monuments on the island. Time placement of this is up in the air, while early scripts say Jacob and his brother were around 50 AD, that was not shown on air and thus not canon until otherwise stated in some official medium. Meaning it could be at any point during the Roman era, either before or after the Egyptians arrived at the island. If Jacob/MiB were after the Egyptians, that may mean MiB is not the first smoke monster, as the Egyptians seemed to deify him in some of their engravings. This may have some basis since we know the Egyptians played some part in the stone work at the Source and we've seen skeletons down there. Since only the island protector can apparently show people the way to the heart of the island, it may mean they were before Jacob's time.

What happened to Cindy and the kids? We didn't see them die, and we know Bernard and Rose didn't appear to leave, so Cindy and the kids may have been hiding out during this period as well. I'm sure Hurley allowed them to remain, but he may have directed them to return to the outside world at some point. This may be something addressed in the deleted scenes when this season comes out later this year on DVD.

Why wasn't character X in the church in the alt-purgatory? Some characters like Michael were dead and stuck on the island as ghosts. While other characters were allowed to take part in the purgatory, but their souls were not yet ready to come to terms with their past mistakes, see Ana Lucia and Ben. We know both Ana Lucia and Charlie appeared off island as ghosts to Hurley, so at some point their ghosts moved on while Michael's could not.

Who ran the Others: Ben or Dogen? The Others were run by Ben, who was advised by Richard who had some contact with Jacob over the years. Ben was seen as special because he saw his dead mother on the island, was this MiB or his mother's ghost? That's unclear, Richard's wife was on the island, even though she didn't die there. Ben was never allowed to see Jacob, but he did things in his name to get what he wanted. Ben took over leadership in the 90s when he had Widmore banished. During this time MiB began appearing to Ben, manipulating him into doing his bidding. Dogen lost his son and was brought to the island at some point, probably in the 90s. He was put in charge of the Temple, which appears to have been used as the Others home base prior to taking over Dharmaville. It was his domain but Ben, being the head honcho, mainly stayed in the place he grew up in Dharmaville.

Why couldn't Ben kill Widmore? One of the rules the Others followed, was that they could not kill each other. To do so meant you yourself would be killed (or at least banished if the kill and be killed thing was Ben's lie) and lose Jacob's favor. This happened to Juliet. Alex, who was an Other, was killed by one of Widmore's men, which was a cheap "out". Ben did not see this as an out and called Widmore on it. Ben could thus avoid the rule by killing Penny, who was not an Other. By the time Ben kills Widmore, Ben has completely abandoned Jacob and his rules, having already "killed" Jacob earlier.

Teek fucked around with this message at May 26, 2010 around 19:09

Secks
Oct 10, 2002

The city is alive tonight


Thenipwax posted:

This show really is ripe for a spinoff. I can see a prequel sort of series that deals with the people on the island before Jacob and MiB being successful. They wouldn't have to worry about messing up any continuity of the original series (not like that ever mattered anyway), and they've got a pretty good framework for the show already set.

I could also see (initially awesome but destined for failure) a Frank / Miles / Richard spinoff. I could see them doing something like this (see: The Lone Gunmen)... I mean, these days, don't rule anything out. But when they were trying to get the plane started, I thought "These characters go really well together." But it's pretty obvious that if they tried it, they would go about it all wrong and it would self-destruct.

Druck
Jul 25, 2002

"That's some kinda nice."

Teek posted:

Who ran the Others: Ben or Dogen? They Others were run by Ben, who was advised by Richard who had some contact with Jacob over the years. Ben was seen as special because he saw his mother, was this MiB or his mother's ghost? That's unclear
I'm gonna go ahead and say this was smokey, using it as a main point in his plan to get Ben to kill Jacob. Seeing his mom was the main reason Richard thought Ben was special, which in turn made him become the leader that Jacob never cared about. "What about you?"

ashpanash
Apr 9, 2008

I can see when you are lying.


The Food Drop seems to me the easiest to explain.

We saw Daniel testing the rocket from the freighter, and how it arrived 20 minutes after it should have. We later saw the dead doctor from the freighter arrive at the Island before he was killed by Keamy. So we see - there's some sort of time distortion field around the Island, and it's unpredictable.

The Food Drop was dropped on a specific trajectory that put it on a very, very long time delay. It was probably dropped by plane as much as 20 years before it actually arrived.

Robotnik DDS
Oct 31, 2004



Teek posted:

Who built the Taweret statue, the Temple, the cork pedestal at the Source, etc.? At some point Egyptians made it to the island through some means. Unable to fully grasp the nature of many of the island EM related mysteries, they began to build monuments on the island. Time placement of this is up in the air, while early scripts say Jacob and his brother were around 50 AD, that was not shown on air and thus not canon until otherwise stated in some official medium. Meaning it could be at any point during the Roman era, either before or after the Egyptians arrived at the island. If Jacob/MiB were after the Egyptians, that may mean MiB is not the first smoke monster, as the Egyptians seemed to deify him in some of their engravings. This may have some basis since we know the Egyptians played some part in the stone work at the Source and we've seen skeletons down there. Since only the island protector can apparently show people the way to the heart of the island, it may mean they were before Jacob's time.

I am really down with the concept of an Egyptian Cult that came after Across the Sea. Just as DHARMA seemed to hold Egyptian imagery important, I think there may have been another group in the interim that took it to the next level. After landing on the island and finding out about their super sperm, the build the State of Tawaret. The find the well or MiB infiltrates them and helps them construct it once again.

Teek posted:

Why couldn't Ben kill Widmore? One of the rules the Others followed, was that they could not kill each other. To do so meant you yourself would be killed (or at least banished if the kill and be killed thing was Ben's lie) and lose Jacob's favor. This happened to Juliet. Alex, who was an Other, was killed by one of Widmore's men, which was a cheap "out". Ben did not see this as an out and called Widmore on it. Ben could thus avoid the rule by killing Penny, who was not an Other. By the time Ben kills Widmore, Ben has completely abandoned Jacob and his rules, having already "killed" Jacob earlier.

I still see this as a two-fold "don't kill my daughter" gentleman's agreement combined with an assumption on at least one or both of their parts that "the island is not done with them yet" because they are still alive and it's literally impossible to kill them.

Bolian Blues
Nov 3, 2008


Teek posted:

Who built the Taweret statue, the Temple, the cork pedestal at the Source, etc.? At some point Egyptians made it to the island through some means. Unable to fully grasp the nature of many of the island EM related mysteries, they began to build monuments on the island. Time placement of this is up in the air, while early scripts say Jacob and his brother were around 50 AD, that was not shown on air and thus not canon until otherwise stated in some official medium. Meaning it could be at any point during the Roman era, either before or after the Egyptians arrived at the island. If Jacob/MiB were after the Egyptians, that may mean MiB is not the first smoke monster, as the Egyptians seemed to deify him in some of their engravings. This may have some basis since we know the Egyptians played some part in the stone work at the Source and we've seen skeletons down there. Since only the island protector can apparently show people the way to the heart of the island, it may mean they were before Jacob's time.

The problem with this is that some Egyptian guys ended up completing the MiB's wheel room under the future site of the Orchid station. The whole place is decorated with hieroglyphs. This would imply they arrived after MiB and Jacob. Other than that, and maybe the lack of a statue appearing in Across the Sea (could be a budget issue), I'm starting to warm to the idea of a pre-Jacob placement in the timeline for the Egyptians.

vv or maybe it was time travel again?

EDIT:

Robotnik DDS posted:

I am really down with the concept of an Egyptian Cult that came after Across the Sea. Just as DHARMA seemed to hold Egyptian imagery important, I think there may have been another group in the interim that took it to the next level. After landing on the island and finding out about their super sperm, the build the State of Tawaret. The find the well or MiB infiltrates them and helps them construct it once again.

That's another good explanation. So we have the real Egyptians, involved with the Source and maybe some of the other artefacts, then later Egyptians or Egyptian wannabes who built the stuff that seems like it came after.

Bolian Blues fucked around with this message at May 26, 2010 around 19:17

Fast Luck
Feb 2, 2003




DrVenkman posted:

Most frustrating of all is the Dharma initiative. They got to be such a big part of the show that it's going to hurt future viewings knowing it'll go loving nowhere. The bigger problem? Half the cast spend 3 YEARS with them and we don't learn a loving thing.
Well, Dharma actually are kind of important. They drilled into the electromagnetic pocket, which combined with the nuke caused the incident, then they built the hatch, which led to the Desmond not pushing the button and the plane crashing, and brought everyone to the island in the first place.

Kind of time paradoxy but I guess when Jacob touched them they were just fated to end up going there. Like with Claire, she was just kind of fated to go to the island as well, and the psychic was a tool to get her on that flight.

DrVenkman
Dec 27, 2005


Again, the Eloise Hawking thing *Almost* works except that in 'Flashes Before Your Eyes' she has real time knowledge of things that are happening or that are *about* to happen. The explanation of Daniel's notebook fails in that regard. Watch the episode again and try and explain how Daniel's notebook could give her the information she has.

The thing with Dharma is that again, they were such a big part of the show but are casually tossed aside when the end game comes into play. And again, don't have your characters live with them if you're not going to attempt to explain a bit more about them.

I actually think the show has answered more than people gave it credit for and I honestly don't expect the show to answer much. But some things are a result of sloppy writing.

Don't even get me started on the temple arc.

Robotnik DDS
Oct 31, 2004



Secks posted:

I could also see (initially awesome but destined for failure) a Frank / Miles / Richard spinoff. I could see them doing something like this (see: The Lone Gunmen)... I mean, these days, don't rule anything out. But when they were trying to get the plane started, I thought "These characters go really well together." But it's pretty obvious that if they tried it, they would go about it all wrong and it would self-destruct.

Miles likely still has Nikki and Paulo's diamonds so he's a millionaire. Lapidus will be heralded as Captain SullenbergerX1000. Then there's Richard who can have any kind of crazy knowledge the plot needs after 100-odd years on the island and maybe even some darkness from him (the purge?).

Sucrose
Dec 9, 2009


I don't think Jughead did anything. "The Incident" was caused by DHARMA drilling down into the pocket of energy, and it caused one last time-flash that sent everyone back to the present. Jughead didn't actually go off.

Oh, and Kate, Sawyer, and Claire and going to have a hell of a time explaining what happened to them when they get back to the real world.

Bolian Blues
Nov 3, 2008


DrVenkman posted:

Again, the Eloise Hawking thing *Almost* works except that in 'Flashes Before Your Eyes' she has real time knowledge of things that are happening or that are *about* to happen. The explanation of Daniel's notebook fails in that regard. Watch the episode again and try and explain how Daniel's notebook could give her the information she has.

The only thing that makes sense to me is that Eloise went through something similar to what happened to Desmond. That's why she has the awareness she does.

Bolian Blues fucked around with this message at May 26, 2010 around 19:26

Fast Luck
Feb 2, 2003




Sucrose posted:

I don't think Jughead did anything. "The Incident" was caused by DHARMA drilling down into the pocket of energy, and it caused one last time-flash that sent everyone back to the present. Jughead didn't actually go off.
Yeah, that's a possibility, which is why I put and/or in the top of the thread. If this is the case, it also could be that the failsafe activated jughead in some way.

Robotnik DDS
Oct 31, 2004



Sucrose posted:

I don't think Jughead did anything. "The Incident" was caused by DHARMA drilling down into the pocket of energy, and it caused one last time-flash that sent everyone back to the present. Jughead didn't actually go off.

I really think that Juliet hitting it with the rock did actually trigger it, but you could be right considering how she was still alive. It's kind of interesting to think that Jughead/Light or one last EM Flash caused an inverse reaction to what happens when the wheel is off it's axis.

Ashrik
Feb 9, 2009

WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Why was Charlie acting so weird when he wanted to get Aaron baptized?

Robotnik DDS
Oct 31, 2004



Ashrik posted:

Why was Charlie acting so weird when he wanted to get Aaron baptized?

A combination of withdrawal symptoms and EM sickness manifesting

jerkstore77
Dec 26, 2003

Future of the franchise

Teek posted:

Who built the Taweret statue, the Temple, the cork pedestal at the Source, etc.? At some point Egyptians made it to the island through some means. Unable to fully grasp the nature of many of the island EM related mysteries, they began to build monuments on the island. Time placement of this is up in the air, while early scripts say Jacob and his brother were around 50 AD, that was not shown on air and thus not canon until otherwise stated in some official medium. Meaning it could be at any point during the Roman era, either before or after the Egyptians arrived at the island. If Jacob/MiB were after the Egyptians, that may mean MiB is not the first smoke monster, as the Egyptians seemed to deify him in some of their engravings. This may have some basis since we know the Egyptians played some part in the stone work at the Source and we've seen skeletons down there. Since only the island protector can apparently show people the way to the heart of the island, it may mean they were before Jacob's time.

In reference to the bolded part, I firmly believe that the smoke monster, or at least the presence/entity that was behind it, existed before MiB was tossed into the cave. It was basically chilling out in the cave when suddenly this guy comes tumbling down the waterfall, dies, then it "possesses" his body. It's also why Desmond and Jack didn't turn into smoke. A) They both weren't dead, and B) that didnt really matter anyway because the presence simply wasnt down there anymore.

I think this because I just can't get over the fact that the Egyptians depicted Smokey a looooooong time ago, and no I don't think time traveling Egyptians is the simplest answer.

One of the counter-arguments to this was that MiB "built" the donkey wheel room, hence the Egyptians must have come after, but that's not necesarily true. I think I remember him saying that he was digging and that's what he found. There was no mention that he built the wall that was there, just the donkey wheel to access what was behind it.

Vakal
May 11, 2008


I feel like I'm missing something about the whole "babies cannot be conceived and then born here," plot-line.

I assume it was the island's way of keeping people from setting up long term civilizations, but it just seemed like such an important part of the earlier seasons that never really had a huge effect.

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Yannick_B
Oct 11, 2007


DrVenkman posted:

Again, the Eloise Hawking thing *Almost* works except that in 'Flashes Before Your Eyes' she has real time knowledge of things that are happening or that are *about* to happen. The explanation of Daniel's notebook fails in that regard. Watch the episode again and try and explain how Daniel's notebook could give her the information she has.

But its all stuff Desmond would remember and couldve told Faraday during the Constant. Faraday, being himself wouldve written that poo poo down. We dont know for sure, but going on what the show gives us, its logical.

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