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DrVenkman posted:Why is Eloise Hawking a timelord? In the normal reality, I would assume a lot of her foreknowledge comes from having Daniel's journal. This might even include her knowledge of how the physics of the island works. In the sideways, we just have to assume she 'awakened' at some point. Perhaps due to Charles or Daniel. quote:I know the official explanation for Aaron/The Psychic was that he was a fraud. But it doesn't explain why he pays for her Plane ticket because the baby was in danger. They clearly threw in "He's crazy!" well after the fact because it almost works. He pays for the ticket because he felt bad. quote:(The outrigger - They can spin it however they want but that was just loving lazy on their part). They know who was in the outrigger and wanted to work it in to a few scripts. It got cut each time and they figured by the time they got to the end of the series it would be lame to shoehorn it in. the posted:Funniest loving thing ever. Robotnik DDS posted:Another thing I think needs a lot of fleshing out is The Others. Their leadership under Ben is so odd. Do you think Dogen was his second in command or were the temple people a separate faction from the DHARMAvillers? Probably a separate faction. quote:Did Cindy and the kids require brainwashing in Room 23? Why would you think this? Room 23 was created by DHARMA. quote:Is the brainwashing why they are all cool with the "Kill Your Dad To Be The Boss" thing? I don't know what this means. You mean when Ben killed Roger? He killed everyone in DHARMA because he wanted to be an Other and the Others wanted DHARMA off the island (see: Alpert's treaty). quote:How does Richard fit in to all of this? He's Jacob's #2. He observes the Others for him, works for their leader, and passes info between the leader and Jacob. Manos del Sino posted:...survive? He left them when he went to find Sayid and got entangled with Jack/mortars on the beach. MiB's group was afraid for their lives. They assumed he'd come back though he probably never had any intention of doing so. We can assume they stuck around at their camp. I love coming up with answers to these questions now that we know they'll never be definitively answered.
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May 26, 2010 20:35
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Vakal posted:I feel like I'm missing something about the whole "babies cannot be conceived and then born here," plot-line. I think the whole fertility thing is just going to have go under "that's the way Jacob ran things."
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May 26, 2010 20:36
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Vakal posted:I feel like I'm missing something about the whole "babies cannot be conceived and then born here," plot-line. I thought we were to assume that the hydrogen bomb going off did that? I'm not looking at a time line right now so maybe I'm off, or maybe I just invented that in my head.
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May 26, 2010 20:37
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jerkstore77 posted:In reference to the bolded part, I firmly believe that the smoke monster, or at least the presence/entity that was behind it, existed before MiB was tossed into the cave. It was basically chilling out in the cave when suddenly this guy comes tumbling down the waterfall, dies, then it "possesses" his body. It's also why Desmond and Jack didn't turn into smoke. A) They both weren't dead, and B) that didnt really matter anyway because the presence simply wasnt down there anymore. I can get behind the idea that there were other smoke monsters before Smokey himself, but as presented it is about as clear as you can get that the MiB and the smoke monster we see on the show are one and the same. I don't really understand how that could be misinterpreted. Unless it's in a very abstract sense, like the Source contains the possibility for evil in all of us and that this is what creates the smoke monster.
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May 26, 2010 20:37
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their drill...... pierced the heavens
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May 26, 2010 20:38
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What the hell is this "outrigger" thing that I keep hearing angry references to? I mean, I know that an outrigger is a kind of canoe but they were used so many times in the show.
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May 26, 2010 20:40
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Accism posted:Unless it's in a very abstract sense, like the Source contains the possibility for evil in all of us and that this is what creates the smoke monster. I'm inclined to believe it's more like this. Saying "MiB became the smoke monster" still fits into my theory about something existing down there before MiB was tossed into the cave.
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May 26, 2010 20:40
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Vakal posted:I feel like I'm missing something about the whole "babies cannot be conceived and then born here," plot-line. It was never explained. Some of the theories include The Incident caused it, the Island doing a form of population control, and one of Jacob's rules gone horribly wrong. I think it might be retribution or a side effect of The Purge.
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May 26, 2010 20:40
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the posted:I lol'd.
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May 26, 2010 20:41
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Mr. Clark2 posted:What the hell is this "outrigger" thing that I keep hearing angry references to? I mean, I know that an outrigger is a kind of canoe but they were used so many times in the show. In one of the time travel flashes, the Sawyer/Juliet group is chased by mysterious people in an outrigger canoe.
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May 26, 2010 20:42
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Matt Cruea posted:They know who was in the outrigger and wanted to work it in to a few scripts. It got cut each time and they figured by the time they got to the end of the series it would be lame to shoehorn it in.
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May 26, 2010 20:42
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Manos del Sino posted:I think the whole fertility thing is just going to have go under "that's the way Jacob ran things." It's due to radiation from the Incident, probably, though I like the idea that Jacob didn't want babies to be born on the island so as not to have them live the life he did. To address some edits to the OP: Fast Luck posted:Why did Juliet say 'it worked'? I don't see why The Incident could not be what allowed them to create the Sideways, which is to say the bomb didn't reset things but it did create another universe. As Christian says they created this place together. I would think due to the bomb being so close to the Source of all life, they were bombarded by such energy and, together, created a place for their minds to travel to post-death a la The Constant, hence why their Constants/loves allow them to "awaken." I guess what I'm saying is there's nothing stopping the Sideways being both a result of faith and science.
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May 26, 2010 20:42
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Matt Cruea posted:Why would you think this? Room 23 was created by DHARMA. Room 23 was being used by the others on Walt in the Missing Pieces episode Room 23 and on Karl within the show to try and control people back into the others' way of thinking. They had adapted it for their own purposes as the word Jacob is in the video now and the modern music would indicate a post DHARMA version of the program. Matt Cruea posted:
We understand this, but I wonder about things like ordering The Purge and how that fits into his personality as we know him, who delivered what list and when Ben was lying. Matt Cruea posted:I don't know what this means. You mean when Ben killed Roger? He killed everyone in DHARMA because he wanted to be an Other and the Others wanted DHARMA off the island (see: Alpert's treaty). I also mean that Locke was confirmed as the leader in the same way. It seems like they have to prove that they are willing to lose something precious to them, but these are pretty extreme things. I wonder how their personalities balance between the suburban lifestyles and the bizarro warrior culture. Robotnik DDS fucked around with this message at 20:52 on May 26, 2010 |
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May 26, 2010 20:45
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Mr. Clark2 posted:What the hell is this "outrigger" thing that I keep hearing angry references to? I mean, I know that an outrigger is a kind of canoe but they were used so many times in the show. During one of the time jumps Sawyer and a few of the others are shot at by unseen assailants while they're escaping in one of the outriggers, in a moment that was clearly going to be brought back again later. Mainly "Who the gently caress is shooting at them?" but it never got resolved. It's often used as a example of sloppy writing, giving that it was brought up so late into the show. It was also a source of torment for Alan Sepinwall. As for Eloise Hawking, to get more specific about it. In 'Flashes before your eyes' she goes outside with Desmond and draws his attention to a man in Red shoes, then moments later the man is killed in the street. It's a demonstration of her knowing things that she shouldn't. There's no possible way that Faraday's notebook could ever include that information! That's the problem. She's clearly set up as something bigger than what she ends up being. Is this a good time to ask about the Cabin and the Smoke ring?
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May 26, 2010 20:50
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Accism posted:I can get behind the idea that there were other smoke monsters before Smokey himself, but as presented it is about as clear as you can get that the MiB and the smoke monster we see on the show are one and the same. I don't really understand how that could be misinterpreted. Yeah, MiB was definitely the same person post-Smoke transformation, though twisted from centuries of being proven wrong and losing. He's probably gone more than a little insane post-Smoke and even post-village destruction (which might explain why he seems to play 'in-character' a lot when he takes dead people's forms). He's a sympathetic figure in Across the Sea, but by 2004 he's too far gone. Robotnik DDS posted:Room 23 was being used by the others in the Missing Pieces episode Room 23 and on Karl within the show to try and control people back into the others' way of thinking. They had adapted it for their own purposes as the word Jacob is in th video now and the modern music would indicate a post DHARMA version of the program. Well, to be fair there's obviously some island influence within the DHARMA organization as a whole. I guess I don't see why we would think the Others would use the Room on Cindy if they used it on anyone at all (they used it on Karl, but he seemed to fear it as if it was used more for torture than brainwashing). quote:We understand this, but I wonder about things like ordering The Purge and how that fits into his personality as we know him, who delivered what list and when Ben was lying. Purge was ordered probably by Jacob because DHARMA was too close to accessing the Source and his job is to stop people from protecting it. Alpert's treaty was supposed to have them leave, but they obviously stayed against their word. Jacob did what he had to do. Which list? Jacob's List of Candidates? The Jacob's List Denny mentions that has to be a different list? Ben was always lying never. quote:I also mean that Locke was confirmed as the leader in the same way. It seems like they have to prove that they are willing to lose something precious to them, but these are pretty extreme things. I wonder how their personalities balance between the suburban lifestyles and the bizarro warrior culture. Yeah, I guess that goes more into character development than the mythology of the show. Locke was picked because Richard met him earlier during a time jump and knew then that he was special. Locke also had some sixth sense regarding the island and what it wants, which would've made him a good pick. quote:Is this a good time to ask about the Cabin and the Smoke ring? Cabin was MiB loving with everyone. Ring of Ash is magic. 
Cartridgeblowers fucked around with this message at 20:58 on May 26, 2010 |
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May 26, 2010 20:54
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Why did the Others want to kill/capture the Losties if they work for Jacob and he brought them to the island? I still don't have an idea/answer for this?
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May 26, 2010 20:55
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I wonder if there's a possibility Eloise used her son's experiments on herself as well. ^ The Others have "free" will to do what they will to protect the island. Ben's current stance seemed to be "kill who you need to to protect the island." Part of being a candidate is that you can be killed by other candidates. If you died, then apparently you weren't right to be the next protector. If you were a candidate and just lived your life free from outside influence, you would not die by accident or through your own actions (suicide). You could probably die by old age though. Also I would guess that if you were scratched off as a candidate before you were dead, like Kate, then the Rules kicked in and you could die like any normal person. Teek fucked around with this message at 21:06 on May 26, 2010 |
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May 26, 2010 20:57
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PatriotAM22 posted:Why did the Others want to kill/capture the Losties if they work for Jacob and he brought them to the island? I still don't have an idea/answer for this? Most of it was a roundabout plan to get Jack to operate on Ben. Weird and kinda lame, but that's what it was. Ben was not privy to Jacob's true nature and Richard obviously didn't give Ben direct orders from Jacob. Teek posted:I wonder if there's a possibility Eloise used her son's experiments on herself as well. This was kinda my thinking as well. She has the notes!
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May 26, 2010 20:59
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Matt Cruea posted:Purge was ordered probably by Jacob because DHARMA was too close to accessing the Source and his job is to stop people from protecting it. Alpert's treaty was supposed to have them leave, but they obviously stayed against their word. Jacob did what he had to do. I don't have a problem with your logic, it's just that Jacob always seems like a non-interference, they'll figure it out, humans are good don't let them kill each other kind of guy. I think it was Richard's decision and maybe out of character for him, but honestly we don't really know much about how he did his thing. Matt Cruea posted:Well, to be fair there's obviously some island influence within the DHARMA organization as a whole. I guess I don't see why we would think the Others would use the Room on Cindy if they used it on anyone at all (they used it on Karl, but he seemed to fear it as if it was used more for torture than brainwashing). I suppose I'm just wondering if giving Cindy and the kids comfort alone would be enough for them to casually check out Jack in the cage like he was just something neat to look at. It seems like they underwent some form of brainwashing after being kidnapped even if it wasn't necessarily room 23.
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May 26, 2010 20:59
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jerkstore77 posted:In reference to the bolded part, I firmly believe that the smoke monster, or at least the presence/entity that was behind it, existed before MiB was tossed into the cave. It was basically chilling out in the cave when suddenly this guy comes tumbling down the waterfall, dies, then it "possesses" his body. It's also why Desmond and Jack didn't turn into smoke. A) They both weren't dead, and B) that didnt really matter anyway because the presence simply wasnt down there anymore. Alright, I think the smoke monster was under the plug, and had the ability to look like people. When Jacob's brother is thrown down the cave, the light goes off, smoke monster leaves, the light goes on, and his dead body reappears somewhere. Later, after Desmond removes the cork, the light goes out, and the smoke monster is killable. It's only when Jack puts the cork back when the light returns, and then his body (though not dead) reappears in the same place Jacob's brother did. It seems to me that Jacob's brother moved the cork, releasing the monster, then put it back, restoring the light, and shooting him off somewhere else on the island dead from his head wound, or the EM energy. The monster wants to leave the island (for some reason), it is only a coincidence that the MiB wanted to as well.
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May 26, 2010 21:01
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Robotnik DDS posted:It was never explained. Some of the theories include The Incident caused it, the Island doing a form of population control, and one of Jacob's rules gone horribly wrong. I think it might be retribution or a side effect of The Purge.
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May 26, 2010 21:03
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PatriotAM22 posted:Why did the Others want to kill/capture the Losties if they work for Jacob and he brought them to the island? I still don't have an idea/answer for this? Because the writers wanted to create conflict but hadn't thought that far ahead yet.
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May 26, 2010 21:04
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Robotnik DDS posted:I don't have a problem with your logic, it's just that Jacob always seems like a non-interference, they'll figure it out, humans are good don't let them kill each other kind of guy. I think it was Richard's decision and maybe out of character for him, but honestly we don't really know much about how he did his thing. I can see it being Richard's decision, too. Depends on how much he knew about the Source. Humans are good but DHARMA was, by the nature of their meddling with the island after promising not to, not good. quote:I suppose I'm just wondering if giving Cindy and the kids comfort alone would be enough for them to casually check out Jack in the cage like he was just something neat to look at. It seems like they underwent some form of brainwashing after being kidnapped even if it wasn't necessarily room 23. Yeah, I mean, I guess they COULD have brainwashed them, but we never see the Others actually brainwash anyone so I guess I wouldn't make that jump. I always just assumed Cindy was weak and scared. They stole her and the kids from the tailies as a form of recon.
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May 26, 2010 21:05
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Matt Cruea posted:Most of it was a roundabout plan to get Jack to operate on Ben. Weird and kinda lame, but that's what it was. Ben was not privy to Jacob's true nature and Richard obviously didn't give Ben direct orders from Jacob. Well then that’s stupid. If Jacob went through all that trouble, don’t you think he would have protected them?
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May 26, 2010 21:06
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Fast Luck posted:In my opinion it's always been like that, and that's why Mother killed the pregnant woman, so she could groom successors. Population control or if you want a reason for it I could see it just being something like men are made sterile by being so close to the light/magnetism. Well the trouble didn't start until some unspecified time post Ethan's birth as far as we know. Plus, they specifically say the island gives you super powered sperm it just won't let women who conceive on island survive the third trimester.
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May 26, 2010 21:07
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Ottermotive Insanity posted:Alright, I think the smoke monster was under the plug, and had the ability to look like people. When Jacob's brother is thrown down the cave, the light goes off, smoke monster leaves, the light goes on, and his dead body reappears somewhere. Later, after Desmond removes the cork, the light goes out, and the smoke monster is killable. It's only when Jack puts the cork back when the light returns, and then his body (though not dead) reappears in the same place Jacob's brother did.
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May 26, 2010 21:07
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PatriotAM22 posted:Well then that’s stupid. If Jacob went through all that trouble, don’t you think he would have protected them? That's part of Jacob's free will kick, if you get killed by another candidate, then that's that. Whittle them down until there's a few left and then let the one who honestly wants it, to do it. Jack stepped up, and he later saw that Hurley imbodied everything that should be the protector. Note that Jacob appeared to Hurley and guided him. Of course that's because Hurley could see ghosts, but it could also be that Jacob ultimately saw Hurley as the next long term protector. Teek fucked around with this message at 21:10 on May 26, 2010 |
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May 26, 2010 21:07
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Fast Luck posted:In my opinion it's always been like that, and that's why Mother killed the pregnant woman, so she could groom successors. Population control or if you want a reason for it I could see it just being something like men are made sterile by being so close to the light/magnetism. Men, like Jin, are actually made more potent sexually by being in proximity of the Source (As it is the origin of life). Perhaps the Incident tainted the Source. Perhaps infertility is due to residual Purge gasses. Perhaps it's one of Jacob's rules?
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May 26, 2010 21:09
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Robotnik DDS posted:Well the trouble didn't start until some unspecified time post Ethan's birth as far as we know. Plus, they specifically say the island gives you super powered sperm it just won't let women who conceive on island survive the third trimester. edit: nm I read Lostpedia, she was with Horace so that was probably all on island. I guess it was the Incident that did it! Fast Luck fucked around with this message at 21:12 on May 26, 2010 |
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May 26, 2010 21:09
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the posted:It's only Wednesday, but I'm guessing this is the funniest thing I'm going to see all week.
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May 26, 2010 21:11
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ashpanash posted:The Food Drop seems to me the easiest to explain. That's a brilliant and simple explanation. Thanks!
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May 26, 2010 21:12
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Fast Luck posted:Oops I guess my made up explanation doesn't work then, but do we know if Ethan was conceived on the island as well? The Dharma people went back and forth on subs a lot. I assume most likely he was considering Horace's direct leadership position, but I think they showed a baby being born in general to give us a clue about a time-frame for the infertility. Also Ethan is theoretically supposed to be 27 in season one/alt timeline which is pretty hilarious.
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May 26, 2010 21:13
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Jughead I think it went off. I think that the energy was directed into the source and pushed those people who were already deemed "time travellers" (Kate, Jack, Hurley, Miles, Sawyer, Juliet, Rose, Bernard, Vincent) into the future, while *temporarily* sealing the breach caused by the incident. But only for a short time. Dharma built their station and found that the energy had started to leak again, and the swan became what it was. Still no idea why the time travelers were the time travelers, or why it pushed them to 2007 and not another time. But we don't understand B-meson flavor oscillation either.
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May 26, 2010 21:13
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PatriotAM22 posted:Well then that’s stupid. If Jacob went through all that trouble, don’t you think he would have protected them? He did! See: Jack and Richard vs. dynamite, the rules. Fast Luck posted:It's feasible but if MIB just died down there, then why did Mother say it's a "fate worse than death"? And also it seems coincidental they both so badly wanted the same thing (to leave the island). While I am in agreement with you and think Jacob's brother actually became the Smoke Monster, I'll play Devil's advocate and point out Mother was batshit crazy. Teek posted:That's part of Jacob's free will kick, if you get killed by another candidate, then that's that. Whittle them down until there's a few left and then let the one who honestly wants it, to do it. Jack stepped up, and he later saw that Hurley imbodied everything that should be the protector. Note that Jacob appeared to Hurley and guided him. Of course that's because Hurley could see ghosts, but it could also be that Jacob ultimately saw Hurley as the next long term protector. Correct. You're good at this! This thread is a lot of fun already, and that Food Drop explanation is great!
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May 26, 2010 21:14
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ashpanash posted:Jughead They were all Candidates, presumedly, and had a special relationship with island magic, which they were exposed to via the Incident.
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May 26, 2010 21:16
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Perhaps there's something in that third trimester that was harmed by the healing effects after the incident. Either it kicked the healing effects into overdrive, or tainted them akin to the Temple water tainting the people it healed. Where normally the source maintained a constant state throughout the island, the breach under the Swan caused fluctuations.
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May 26, 2010 21:17
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Fast Luck posted:It's feasible but if MIB just died down there, then why did Mother say it's a "fate worse than death"? And also it seems coincidental they both so badly wanted the same thing (to leave the island). I don't see why it's not conceivable that two people (well one's more of a thing) that are stuck on an island would want to leave. I mean, they're stranded on an island, It's like saying it's a coincidence that Michael AND Sawyer wanted to leave the island in season 1. It's possible a fate worse than death was having his soul stuck on the island, or somehow becoming part of the smoke monster, who knows? But his body does show up, dead. The smoke monster just knew everything he knew, much like it knew what Locke knew.
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May 26, 2010 21:19
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Okay, I have a question: did the "purgatory" world always exist as everyone's afterlife, or was it created by Jack using his temporary Forbidden Planet powers as a way to see his friends again, or was it created by Jacob as his failsafe for making a safe world where the smoke monster couldn't get to?
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May 26, 2010 21:19
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So there's this scene where one of the survivors (I think it's Locke) gets snatched by Smokey and the others struggle to hold onto him. It was in one of the earlier seasons, I think. Then there's the french team getting lured into the tunnels in season 5. What was the MiB trying to accomplish there? Did he just want to make them into his pawns?
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May 26, 2010 21:19
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dyzzy posted:So there's this scene where one of the survivors (I think it's Locke) gets snatched by Smokey and the others struggle to hold onto him. It was in one of the earlier seasons, I think. Then there's the french team getting lured into the tunnels in season 5. What was the MiB trying to accomplish there? Did he just want to make them into his pawns? I don't think the writers had any idea what the smoke monster really was until the 5th season or so.
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May 26, 2010 21:21
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