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Steve Yun posted:Okay, I have a question: did the "purgatory" world always exist as everyone's afterlife, or I'm thinking neither. Based on Christian's words, when each of them died they went to a place that existed out of time, and together they made that reality up as a way to find each other and move on to [insert religious interpretation of choice].
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May 26, 2010 21:21
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I haven't re-watched anything, but could some of Desmond's interaction with Eloise (like the red shoe guy) be in the sideways-verse?
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May 26, 2010 21:22
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Why did Jacob (via Ilana) say that Richard would know what to do? Richard did not seem to know anything useful at he very end. What was the point of Ilana's character? How were Ilana's group related to the Others and/or Jacob?
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May 26, 2010 21:23
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Thenipwax posted:I don't think the writers had any idea what the smoke monster really was until the 5th season or so. Well that sucks, because he explained the part about impersonating Jack's dad to get him to find the cave pretty well. I guess most of the smoke monster scenes can just be chalked up to him being an intimidating prick. ^^^ I heard from a friend who said he had read that Ilana was meant to be Jacob's daughter, but they cut this out and just blew her up.
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May 26, 2010 21:23
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Matt Cruea posted:They were all Candidates, presumedly, and had a special relationship with island magic, which they were exposed to via the Incident. Vincent was a candidate? Jacob had a sense of humor. But in all seriousness, it makes some sort of sense. Jack, Kate, Sayid, and Hurley were zapped from the Ajira flight while Sun, Ben, and Frank weren't. Ok, I sorta get it, although Kate wasn't a candidate at that point (even though as Jacob says, it's just a line of chalk) presumably for the same reason Sun wasn't? (Being a mother) But some things you have to let fly. Rose, Bernard, Vincent, Sawyer, Miles, Daniel, Charlotte, Jin and Juliet were all caught (along with the other socks who all died) in the time-vortex when Ben pushed the donkey wheel. So that's why they were also affected by Jughead. Still no explanation for why the others on the island didn't timejump with them but again, Jacob's magic.
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May 26, 2010 21:24
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Steve Yun posted:Okay, I have a question: did the "purgatory" world always exist as everyone's afterlife, or I think the idea that Christian said "You all created it together" is the important thing to keep in mind. That's not to say Jack maybe didn't "activate it", but somewhere in the crossroads, this group of souls who were linked by their connection to the island designed a world where they wouldn't question anything in general until everyone died, or was ready to go to the next level together. They put themselves in the state of bliss and setup a "time" to see what was next. I don't think Jacob is related in the least. dyzzy posted:So there's this scene where one of the survivors (I think it's Locke) gets snatched by Smokey and the others struggle to hold onto him. It was in one of the earlier seasons, I think. Then there's the french team getting lured into the tunnels in season 5. What was the MiB trying to accomplish there? Did he just want to make them into his pawns? I don't have a problem thinking that generally speaking that this late in "the game", he just wanted to do what he could to cause chaos and arguments, both to prove Jacob wrong and to get them to kill each other. That's why for a while in the middle he generally leaves them alone after they are "stirred up" enough. Robotnik DDS fucked around with this message at 21:28 on May 26, 2010 |
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May 26, 2010 21:25
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Thenipwax posted:I don't think the writers had any idea what the smoke monster really was until the 5th season or so. Guys, I think we need to operate in this thread as if the writers knew what they were doing the whole time. Meaning in this thread we're trying to come up with answers within the context of the show, even if X wasn't originally written with later question Y in mind. Y could have been written though based on how X played out or with X in mind. So even if they didn't know why MiB killed the pilot in the first episode, we can use the later info given about him to come up with reasons he might have done so. Teek fucked around with this message at 21:48 on May 26, 2010 |
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May 26, 2010 21:26
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illumn8d posted:I haven't re-watched anything, but could some of Desmond's interaction with Eloise (like the red shoe guy) be in the sideways-verse? No because Penny had never met him in the Sideways verse and it is a different version of history in general.
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May 26, 2010 21:26
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A good example of Teek's thinking is the spin it puts on the episode 'Dave'. The MiB can't kill Hurley as he's a candidate, but he can appear as an apparition and talk Hurley into jumping off a cliff.
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May 26, 2010 21:28
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ashpanash posted:Jack, Kate, Sayid, and Hurley were zapped from the Ajira flight while Sun, Ben, and Frank weren't. Ok, I sorta get it, although Kate wasn't a candidate at that point (even though as Jacob says, it's just a line of chalk) presumably for the same reason Sun wasn't? (Being a mother) But some things you have to let fly.
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May 26, 2010 21:29
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Robotnik DDS posted:No because Penny had never met him in the Sideways verse and it is a different version of history in general. But if he is swapping consciousnesses, why would that part matter? EDIT: Nevermind, it couldn't be that, you're right. illumn8d fucked around with this message at 21:32 on May 26, 2010 |
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May 26, 2010 21:29
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I thought that was Hurley actually having a "real" hallucination.
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May 26, 2010 21:29
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Teek posted:Guys, I think we need to operate in this thread as if the writers new what they were doing the whole time. Meaning in this thread we're trying to come up with answers within the context of the show, even if X wasn't originally written with later question Y in mind. Y could have been written though based on how X played out or with X in mind. So even if they didn't know why MiB killed the pilot in the first episode, we can use the later info given about him to come up with reasons he might have done so. I agree. I think that if nothing else we have to go for "no-prize" explanations of things that don't make a lick of sense - for the most part. I think there are certain things we can ignore/let slide, but major story points we need to figure out some sort of logical, internal consistency in order for the thread's goal to be accomplished.
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May 26, 2010 21:31
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Fast Luck posted:And Kate was a candidate at least at one time. Sun might never have been (there was only one Kwon). Ben didn't flash either. He was a candidate at some point.
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May 26, 2010 21:33
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illumn8d posted:But if he is swapping consciousnesses, why would that part matter? I'm not sure I understand you. What I mean is that in Flashes Before your Eyes he was experiencing his real life with Penny there as well. These are shared events that both of them remember. He also had Widmore berating him and treating him like his actual life. It doesn't seem like that's the same "created universe" of the purgatory. I can see an argument for why it might not be real life, but I don't see it as the same thing as the sideways-verse which has it's own alternate history. EDIT: Nevermind 
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May 26, 2010 21:33
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Ravel posted:Ben didn't flash either. He was a candidate at some point.
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May 26, 2010 21:35
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Yeah, I don't think Dave works as an MiB influence, as Hurley killing himself wouldn't be possible. Of course it's also possible Hurley could have jumped off the cliff and just been heavily injured like Michael after he tried to kill himself by crashing his car.
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May 26, 2010 21:36
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Robotnik DDS posted:I'm not sure I understand you. What I mean is that in Flashes Before your Eyes he was experiencing his real life with Penny there as well. These are shared events that both of them remember. He also had Widmore berating him and treating him like his actual life. It doesn't seem like that's the same "created universe" of the purgatory. I can see an argument for why it might not be real life, but I don't see it as the same thing as the sideways-verse which has it's own alternate history. By swapping consciousnesses, I meant the Desmond visiting Eloise would be replacing the Desmond that doesn't know Penny, but I think it's irrelevant anyway.
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May 26, 2010 21:36
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Ravel posted:Ben didn't flash either. He was a candidate at some point. My hand-wavy rationalization is that the people who flashed back had a role to play in the past, and those who didn't, didn't. For all we know Jacob pulled his strings to send them back.
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May 26, 2010 21:36
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dyzzy posted:My hand-wavy rationalization is that the people who flashed back had a role to play in the past, and those who didn't, didn't. For all we know Jacob pulled his strings to send them back. Its like the compass, stuck in a timeloop.
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May 26, 2010 21:37
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Fast Luck posted:We don't know that. I kind of doubt he was, with all his insecurities and "not special" issues. I do know there was a "Linus" in the cave but it could've been his dad. Well Richard clearly says there is a procedure to being leader of the Others. If Ben could pass that then I see no reason to assume it's Roger. In any case, the flashes are more likely to have been controlled by MiB as I explained in the last thread.
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May 26, 2010 21:37
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dyzzy posted:My hand-wavy rationalization is that the people who flashed back had a role to play in the past, and those who didn't, didn't. For all we know Jacob pulled his strings to send them back.
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May 26, 2010 21:37
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Fast Luck posted:Yeah, i've considered this before when someone else asked me this. I said it can be a self-fulfilling prophecy where whatever happened, happened, and these folks did stuff in the past so when they returned to the island after it moved on its temporal axis or whatever they came in at a different time than the others. Of course there's another possibility - Jacob's list in Hurley's Ankh. Wasn't it Hurley, Jack, Kate, and Sayid on the list? Miles and Sawyer were brought to the temple later, right?
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May 26, 2010 21:41
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Steve Yun posted:Okay, I have a question: did the "purgatory" world always exist as everyone's afterlife, or I think it was created by the Incident, though there's a possibility that it was created by everyone on-island's exposure to the Source. Christian explicitly said they created it, though. Perhaps that's just how it works in their universe. Everyone who dies makes their own afterlife a la 'What Dreams May Come.' dyzzy posted:So there's this scene where one of the survivors (I think it's Locke) gets snatched by Smokey and the others struggle to hold onto him. It was in one of the earlier seasons, I think. Then there's the french team getting lured into the tunnels in season 5. What was the MiB trying to accomplish there? Did he just want to make them into his pawns? He's an evil smoke monster. He was loving with everyone. With the French team he was demoralizing them and killing the non-Candidates on the team. With the Survivors he was probably just loving with them in the course of his long con (ultimate goal: death of Jacob and escape). illumn8d posted:I haven't re-watched anything, but could some of Desmond's interaction with Eloise (like the red shoe guy) be in the sideways-verse? Nope. His interaction with Eloise leads to his interaction with Penny which effects the future (he calls her and she picks up). It's time travel. Cocks Cable posted:Why did Jacob (via Ilana) say that Richard would know what to do? Richard did not seem to know anything useful at he very end. What was the point of Ilana's character? Jacob probably didn't expect to die. He wasn't omniscient. So he told her to follow Richard because he trusted him. Ilana seemed to be little more than a very high-ranking Other. ashpanash posted:Vincent was a candidate? Jacob had a sense of humor. Rose and Bernard happened to be touching Vincent at the time and he traveled a la the DHARMA Van.  Jacob didn't know Kate had become a mother until the Ajira flight landed. He crossed her off shortly before dying. Teek posted:Guys, I think we need to operate in this thread as if the writers new what they were doing the whole time. Meaning in this thread we're trying to come up with answers within the context of the show, even if X wasn't originally written with later question Y in mind. Y could have been written though based on how X played out or with X in mind. So even if they didn't know why MiB killed the pilot in the first episode, we can use the later info given about him to come up with reasons he might have done so. Agreed completely.
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May 26, 2010 21:45
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One question which I'm stuck wondering about is the ash containing/repelling Smokey. Nothing inside the show seems to address this outside of Jacob's ashes being important to allowing him to remain as a ghost until they were returned to him. I would have thought maybe it was the ashes of MiB's original body, but we know that wasn't the case since it's in the cave. Was the ash a side effect of the rules? I'm not entirely sure the reason it was used. Perhaps because it's an easy medium to create through burning the readily available jungle. Could also be a way for Jacob to remind MiB of their mother. "Remember the smoldering ashen ruins of the human village mother burned which caused you to kill her? I'll never let you forget. Any time you try to cross ash, you will be forbidden from doing so."
Teek fucked around with this message at 21:50 on May 26, 2010 |
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May 26, 2010 21:47
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One thing that's weird to me is 4 8 15 16 23 42 are the special Lost numbers and all, and Kate was NEVER one of those. She was #51, the only main character who wasn't one of the numbers.
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May 26, 2010 21:48
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ashpanash posted:Of course there's another possibility - Jacob's list in Hurley's Ankh. Wasn't it Hurley, Jack, Kate, and Sayid on the list? Miles and Sawyer were brought to the temple later, right? I don't understand why Jacob, who thinks men are inherently good, orders his others (Dogen & Lenon) to kill anybody that isn't on his list. That doesn't seem like a hands off approach to observing whether man is evil at heart. Seems like obvious interference.
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May 26, 2010 21:48
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Teek posted:One question which I'm stuck wondering about is the ash containing/repelling Smokey. Nothing inside the show seems to address this outside of Jacob's ashes being important to allowing him to remain as a ghost until they were returned to him. I would have thought maybe it was his original body, but we know that wasn't the case since it's in the cave. Was the ash a side effect of the rules? I'm not entirely sure where some reason it was used. Perhaps because it's an easy medium to create through burning the readily available jungle. Could also be a way for Jacob to remind MiB of their mother. "Remember the smoldering ashen ruins of the human village mother burned which caused you to kill her? I'll never let you forget. Any time you try to cross ash, you will be forbidden from doing so." Probably has more to do with the latter. Jacob wanted ash and sonic fences to repel smokey, so they could. He could not, however, come up with a rule relating to killing smokey due to Mother's rules. LOST = Calvinball
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May 26, 2010 21:50
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Fast Luck posted:One thing that's weird to me is 4 8 15 16 23 42 are the special Lost numbers and all, and Kate was NEVER one of those. She was #51, the only one from Oceanic who wasn't one of the numbers. No lots of people from oceanic weren't the numbers like Michael or Shannon for instance. Also half of the "numbered" candidates were dead when it was go time, anyway. It's important to see the final candidates not as the source of the numbers but just another manifestation of them.
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May 26, 2010 21:50
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Here's some needless pontificating: Jacob's Mother says that if he touches the source, he'll suffer a fate worse than death. This is seen in no uncertain terms when Jacob's Brother turns into the smoke monster. But Jacob's brother, overcome with rage and anger, may have manifested that. Later, Desmond and Jack touch the source, but for different reasons and with different consequences. Perhaps THEIR consequence is the creation of the sideways world, a purgatory of sorts that linked them together and forced them to re-live their lives until they could make the right connections to "leave" - return to the source, move on, whatever. And they also took their loved ones, their "constants" with them. So the sideways world wasn't what happens to everyone - it's a result of them loving with the source, even though they did it for "good."
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May 26, 2010 21:52
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Thenipwax posted:I don't understand why Jacob, who thinks men are inherently good, orders his others (Dogen & Lenon) to kill anybody that isn't on his list. That doesn't seem like a hands off approach to observing whether man is evil at heart. Seems like obvious interference. Did we ever hear Jacob specifically say that? Did the note say that? It seems to me that was just a standing order in place by Ben. "Kill anyone who is a threat to the island and not protected by Jacob." Jacob gives a list and certain people aren't on it, we'll you're screwed. Matt Cruea posted:Probably has more to do with the latter. Jacob wanted ash and sonic fences to repel smokey, so they could. He could not, however, come up with a rule relating to killing smokey due to Mother's rules. That makes sense based on everything we're given. I can see the fences working as some legit scientific means though that could work beyond the rules, since it appears to mess up even normal people hard core. Jacob seems to operate old school, and I'm not sure he'd give tech specific rules. "Can openers can repel my brother." Ash seems more his thing, being organic in nature. Question is though, is there something about ash or was it just something readily available from the jungle plant material being burned? Teek fucked around with this message at 21:57 on May 26, 2010 |
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May 26, 2010 21:52
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Teek posted:Guys, I think we need to operate in this thread as if the writers knew what they were doing the whole time. Meaning in this thread we're trying to come up with answers within the context of the show, even if X wasn't originally written with later question Y in mind. Y could have been written though based on how X played out or with X in mind. So even if they didn't know why MiB killed the pilot in the first episode, we can use the later info given about him to come up with reasons he might have done so. Goddammit no. I loved this show, but I am not going to sit and pretend that all of this stuff was planned out from the start, when clearly there were a lot of things that were not. Jacob vs. MiB was the biggest red herring the producers ever made and it was used as a means to quickly explain away the inconsistent behavior of a lot of the island's mysteries.
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May 26, 2010 21:53
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Teek posted:Did we ever hear Jacob specifically say that? Did the note say that? It seems to me that was just a standing order in place by Ben. "Kill anyone who is a threat to the island and not protected by Jacob." Jacob gives a list and certain people aren't on it, we'll you're screwed. It's heavily implied that Jacob ordered the deaths of the US military.
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May 26, 2010 21:54
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Goddammit no. I loved this show, but I am not going to sit and pretend that all of this stuff was planned out from the start, when clearly there were a lot of things that were not. Jacob vs. MiB was the biggest red herring the producers ever made and it was used as a means to quickly explain away the inconsistent behavior of a lot of the island's mysteries. Yeah but it's fun.
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May 26, 2010 21:55
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Robotnik DDS posted:No lots of people from oceanic weren't the numbers like Michael or Shannon for instance. Also half of the "numbered" candidates were dead when it was go time, anyway. It's important to see the final candidates not as the source of the numbers but just another manifestation of them.
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May 26, 2010 21:56
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To clarify my previous statement. I believe that a lot of the themes were planned out from the start. Science vs. faith. White vs. Black. Self vs. Other. I do not believe that the character's of MiB or Jacob as they appeared in season 6 were ever in the show's "bible" when the first 3 seasons were being written. EDIT: And ultimately that's the answer to a lot of these questions. They made Season 6 up.
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May 26, 2010 21:56
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Anonymous Zebra posted:To clarify my previous statement. I believe that a lot of the themes were planned out from the start. Science vs. faith. White vs. Black. Self vs. Other. I do not believe that the character's of MiB or Jacob as they appeared in season 6 were ever in the show's "bible" when the first 3 seasons were being written. We all know that it was hard to do and they made mistakes. We are exploring the show itself as a text as opposed to it's creation.
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May 26, 2010 21:58
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Goddammit no. I loved this show, but I am not going to sit and pretend that all of this stuff was planned out from the start, when clearly there were a lot of things that were not. Jacob vs. MiB was the biggest red herring the producers ever made and it was used as a means to quickly explain away the inconsistent behavior of a lot of the island's mysteries. I'm not saying you have to like it or operate that way in reality, I'm just saying that within the context of the goals of this thread, we have to operate like that. I said that in the hopes we could avoid this thread devolving into an ongoing poo poo storm about how Darlton sucks and planned/resolved nothing.
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May 26, 2010 21:59
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I agree with that line of thought. Also, whatever they were thinking, Jacob was introduced in season 2.
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May 26, 2010 22:00
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Thenipwax posted:I don't understand why Jacob, who thinks men are inherently good, orders his others (Dogen & Lenon) to kill anybody that isn't on his list. That doesn't seem like a hands off approach to observing whether man is evil at heart. Seems like obvious interference. I think it's more likely that Jacob gives Richard some names and tells him that these people are good or special. Richard goes to the leader of the others and tells them "these people are special." The Others go "Jacob wants us to protect these guys. The people who are not on this list, well they're hosed because it's our duty to protect the island. We're the good guys, after all." It is interesting to not that the Others under Ben's leadership did initially try to retrieve their marks without killing. The tail survivors drew the first blood, and Jack persisted after Ethan tried to warn him off.
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May 26, 2010 22:02
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