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Anonymous Zebra posted:Goddammit no. I loved this show, but I am not going to sit and pretend that all of this stuff was planned out from the start, when clearly there were a lot of things that were not. Jacob vs. MiB was the biggest red herring the producers ever made and it was used as a means to quickly explain away the inconsistent behavior of a lot of the island's mysteries. There's a whole other thread where you can bleat on and on about that.
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May 26, 2010 22:02
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Oh gently caress, I was listening to the Firewall and Iceberg podcast and they mentioned the Hurleybird. It was also one of the things that Cuse and Lindelof promised to answer. We do have to accept one thing though. There are occasions where the writers just straight up don't have answers for things. That's either down to time or down to slopiness. It's cool to see some explanations that are worth mulling over, but lets not start bending backwards to make things fit either.
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May 26, 2010 22:02
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Fast Luck posted:I agree with that line of thought. I believe that "Jacob" was the name for the leader of the Others. When the producers decided to merge Henry Gale/Ben with that role they were left with a problem of having said the name "Jacob" a number of times and had to come up with someone else above Ben. At first it seems they were going to pretend that "Jacob" was someone made up by Ben to fool his followers (the empty cabin, Ben killing Locke to keep him quiet). But at the end of season 5 they began the "Season 6 sleight-of-hand" and put Jacob into that. EDIT: The other thread is thousands of posts long and contains a much lower ratio of discussion to white noise than this one.
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May 26, 2010 22:03
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DrVenkman posted:Oh gently caress, I was listening to the Firewall and Iceberg podcast and they mentioned the Hurleybird. It was also one of the things that Cuse and Lindelof promised to answer. As far as I know the Hurleybird was never promised to be answered. It was a coincidence in the first place and something from the fans as opposed to the show. The DVD Commentary did say Annie was going to be a big deal though 
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May 26, 2010 22:04
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The Hurleybird was something that fans randomly latched onto, but really didn't have anything mysterious behind it. The producers were poking fun at the fans by having Hurley actually mention it the next season. "Dude, did that bird just say my name?"
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May 26, 2010 22:06
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Robotnik DDS posted:As far as I know the Hurleybird was never promised to be answered. It was a coincidence in the first place and something from the fans as opposed to the show. That bird was pretty weird though. And why can I not remember Annie?
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May 26, 2010 22:07
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Jacob was only introduced in Season 3, and even then only initially in the R23 video. The only possible allusion to him in season 2 is when a captive Ben says that Tom is nothing and that the leader of the Others is a 'great man'. However, the words 'great man' were used by Tom earlier to refer to Hanso, and the same phrase used again by Eloise to refer probably to Hanso in the Lamppost.
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May 26, 2010 22:08
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Anonymous Zebra posted:EDIT: The other thread is thousands of posts long and contains a much lower ratio of discussion to white noise than this one. That's too bad, but it's still a matter of not allowing "they made it up/didn't have a plan" to be a crutch in this thread.
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May 26, 2010 22:08
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How come Desmond was suddenly able to predict people's deaths in season 3 or whenever it was?
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May 26, 2010 22:08
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DrVenkman posted:That bird was pretty weird though. Annie was kid-ben's girly friend.
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May 26, 2010 22:09
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Cellophane S posted:How come Desmond was suddenly able to predict people's deaths in season 3 or whenever it was? Desmond has a power, like Miles, Walt and Hurley is probably the most plausible explanation. If you attempt to explain it with the failsafe, he gets caught in a timeloop.
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May 26, 2010 22:11
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Cellophane S posted:How come Desmond was suddenly able to predict people's deaths in season 3 or whenever it was? It was only Charlie, and it was a result of his inundation with the EM effects of the Swan. He gained a sort of precognition that related only and distinctly to charlie, in addition to his apparent ability to time travel consciously back to his courtship of Penny, and ultimately his extreme resistance to EM radiation killing him (though it certainly had major effects on him.)
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May 26, 2010 22:11
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Cellophane S posted:How come Desmond was suddenly able to predict people's deaths in season 3 or whenever it was? He was slightly unstuck due to the events at the hatch. The resolution of the paradox, Charlie being alive in one perceived reality and dead in the other, restored him. Woof, beaten twice. I'll also point out that Desmond is "special" in ways that make time travel paradoxes work for him in a way it doesn't for others- for example, Daniel being able to communicate with him in the past. dyzzy fucked around with this message at 22:13 on May 26, 2010 |
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May 26, 2010 22:11
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Cellophane S posted:How come Desmond was suddenly able to predict people's deaths in season 3 or whenever it was? It was his consciousness leaping into the future as part of the EM Blast from the hatch explosion, but only for short periods.
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May 26, 2010 22:11
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Ravel posted:a captive Ben says that Tom is nothing and that the leader of the Others is a 'great man' I always assumed Ben was talking about himself in that instance.
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May 26, 2010 22:11
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Robotnik DDS posted:It was his consciousness leaping into the future as part of the EM Blast from the hatch explosion, but only for short periods. Yeah that actually makes sense, now that I think about it  I AM NOW AT REST.
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May 26, 2010 22:12
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dyzzy posted:That's too bad, but it's still a matter of not allowing "they made it up/didn't have a plan" to be a crutch in this thread. I don't plan to use it as a crutch all the time though. I honestly believe that they did have answers for some of these things even as far back as season 1, and when those topics come up, I'll be happy to talk about them fully within the context of the show. For example. I am pretty sure that the Others as originally conceived were supposed to be a mixture mystical and science. I'm almost 100% sure that the Dharma Initiative was supposed to have been one and the same as the Others. Dharma built their poo poo on top of older relics and hosed around with them. The Swan was on top of exotic matter and The Temple (which WAS a hatch as shown on Ben's map) was likely built over strange temple ruins. Don't forget the Egyptian writing inside the Swan (on the countdown). Tom mentioning Hanso as a great man also lend credence to this. EDIT: Or the smoke door underneath the Dharma house.
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May 26, 2010 22:12
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Desmond's powers do not come from the Failsafe. He has them before, but they only manifest in that way after the Hatch implosion.
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May 26, 2010 22:12
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Oh, was there ever any gap-filling re: Libby being in the insane asylum, offering Desmond the boat and then showing up on the island?
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May 26, 2010 22:14
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Cellophane S posted:How come Desmond was suddenly able to predict people's deaths in season 3 or whenever it was? Magic. The swan implosion doused Desmond with exotic time particles or something. Or my alternative explanation is that his 'reliving his life' he experienced in Flashes Before Your Eyes was a personal form of the purgatory-existence that the survivors go through in season 6. Desmond didn't actually travel to the past and relive his life and meet Eloise, it was all an out of mind/out of time experience. This close exposure to the afterlife made him sensitive to other people's deaths. Ravel posted:Desmond's powers do not come from the Failsafe. He has them before, but they only manifest in that way after the Hatch implosion. Need a source on this. Demonstrate one time that Desmond has shown precognitive or time travelling abilities prior to the hatch implosion that isn't a result of his future mind swapping places with his past self.
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May 26, 2010 22:14
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Cellophane S posted:Oh, was there ever any gap-filling re: Libby being in the insane asylum, offering Desmond the boat and then showing up on the island? The actress that played Libby was removed from the show before her plot could be fulfilled.
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May 26, 2010 22:15
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Cellophane S posted:Oh, was there ever any gap-filling re: Libby being in the insane asylum, offering Desmond the boat and then showing up on the island? Libby was in an insane asylum because she was distraught at the death of her husband. Later, after she got out, she bumped into Desmond in a coffee shop, and after hearing that he wanted to sail around the world, she gave him her dead husband's boat, maybe as a means of finally letting go. And she was on the island because she went to Australia and was heading back to LAX.
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May 26, 2010 22:16
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The Saddest Robot posted:Libby was in an insane asylum because she was distraught at the death of her husband. Heck of a personal journey.
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May 26, 2010 22:16
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Cellophane S posted:Oh, was there ever any gap-filling re: Libby being in the insane asylum, offering Desmond the boat and then showing up on the island? It's simplest to think that she was distraught after her husbands death and she just didn't want Hurley to know she was in a mental institution. The boat was just fate/the island orchestrating things so that Desmond would bring the next group of candidates to the island.
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May 26, 2010 22:17
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Anonymous Zebra posted:The actress that played Libby was removed from the show before her plot could be fulfilled. Her family threw her in the insane asylum when she gave away the boat to some guy she met in a coffee shop. She manged to get out and went on a vacation to Australia.
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May 26, 2010 22:18
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ashpanash posted:Her family threw her in the insane asylum when she gave away the boat to some guy she met in a coffee shop. She manged to get out and went on a vacation to Australia. This is the superior explanation by far
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May 26, 2010 22:18
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ashpanash posted:Her family threw her in the insane asylum when she gave away the boat to some guy she met in a coffee shop. She manged to get out and went on a vacation to Australia. I like this version too.
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May 26, 2010 22:18
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The Saddest Robot posted:Need a source on this. Demonstrate one time that Desmond has shown precognitive or time travelling abilities prior to the hatch implosion that isn't a result of his future mind swapping places with his past self. Desmond has a temporal displacement power, so by its nature its causality is muddled. During the timeskips, Desmond is the only one to notice the white EM flash that precedes a skip. This means that Desmond has the power before the failsafe. Now, it stands to reason that if Desmond had this power a year before the failsafe, he also had it the day after, and all days up until the moment he turned the key: Desmond would retain this ability at the exact moment he turns the key, meaning he could never have died because he already has the immunity power. Otherwise where does he get the power from? He survives, and is shown to have some EM awareness power in his regular 2002/3 self. Otherwise the power becomes caught in a causality loop like the compass.
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May 26, 2010 22:20
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Goddammit no. I loved this show, but I am not going to sit and pretend that all of this stuff was planned out from the start, when clearly there were a lot of things that were not. Jacob vs. MiB was the biggest red herring the producers ever made and it was used as a means to quickly explain away the inconsistent behavior of a lot of the island's mysteries. DrVenkman posted:Oh gently caress, I was listening to the Firewall and Iceberg podcast and they mentioned the Hurleybird. It was also one of the things that Cuse and Lindelof promised to answer. I don't think you guys get the point of this thread. The entire goal here IS to bend backwards to make things fit. We're trying to make sense of the unanswered questions using only the tools at hand. If you operate outside of that realm then you can answer every question with "the produces did/didn't care about that." The Saddest Robot posted:I think it's more likely that Jacob gives Richard some names and tells him that these people are good or special. It's the world's most dangerous game of telephone. ashpanash posted:It was only Charlie, and it was a result of his inundation with the EM effects of the Swan. He gained a sort of precognition that related only and distinctly to charlie, in addition to his apparent ability to time travel consciously back to his courtship of Penny, and ultimately his extreme resistance to EM radiation killing him (though it certainly had major effects on him.) Bingo. They were connected due to their proximity during the hatch explosion. Desmond may or may not have previously had his abilities (does he ever show anything like this, Ravel?), though I'd put it more on Source exposure. Manos del Sino posted:I always assumed Ben was talking about himself in that instance. As did I. Until this thread I never really considered Jacob the "leader" of the Others. I'm not sure the lower-tier Others (like Juliet) even knew who Jacob was. Cellophane S posted:Oh, was there ever any gap-filling re: Libby being in the insane asylum, offering Desmond the boat and then showing up on the island? More than likely Libby was manipulated more than others by Jacob. It's a series of coincidences that more than likely aren't coincidences at all.
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May 26, 2010 22:22
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ashpanash posted:Her family threw her in the insane asylum when she gave away the boat to some guy she met in a coffee shop. She manged to get out and went on a vacation to Australia. Incredible. Ravel posted:Desmond has a temporal displacement power, so by its nature its causality is muddled. During the timeskips, Desmond is the only one to notice the white EM flash that precedes a skip. This means that Desmond has the power before the failsafe. I forgot Desmond noticed the timeflash when he was pressing the button alone. Good catch! Desmond had to have had his power before the hatch explosion (it's still probably related to the Source, however).
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May 26, 2010 22:25
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Matt Cruea posted:It's the world's most dangerous game of telephone. How many times Richard went "you guys, we have to protect the light, its pretty serious, Jacob said so" "Oh so gas everyone, gotcha!" Just a simple message, twisted into violence. No wonder they become jaded.
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May 26, 2010 22:25
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Yannick_B posted:How many times Richard went "you guys, we have to protect the light, its pretty serious, Jacob said so" "Richard, I need you to go tell your people to clean up the temple. It's lookin' messy, man." "Guys, Jacob said to make a mess of those men. Kill the US Army." Richard is half-deaf.
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May 26, 2010 22:28
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Matt Cruea posted:As did I. Until this thread I never really considered Jacob the "leader" of the Others. I'm not sure the lower-tier Others (like Juliet) even knew who Jacob was. In Ab Aeterno Jacob appoints Richard specifically because he doesn't want to interfere with people's free will. So Richard is kind of like the team owner of the others. He then appoints a general manager(Eloise..Widmore..Ben), and lets them do their thing. He maintains a somewhat hands-off approach just like Jacob does, but he still guides the leaders toward protecting the island. Ben became leader through 2 actions. Ben masterminded the end of the Dharma Initiative occupation. At the end of the gassing scene Ben walks up to Richard, and says "What next," to which Richard replies something like "You tell me." Ben also found the dirt on Widmore that ended up getting Widmore banished from the island. They didn't show that whole story, but it's alluded to a few times. There's a scene with Widmore boarding the submarine in handcuffs, and Widmore says to Ben, "I know what you are boy, and that everything you have you took from me," in The Shape of Things to Come. There's a lot of layers of plot to Lost, and that's one of the reasons I like it. There is this 2000-year-old battle that's happening between Jacob and Smokey, but there's also humans doing their own hosed-up stuff on the island as well.
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May 26, 2010 22:35
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Was there any explanation as to why Smokey got stuck as Locke? Ilana (I think) said something along the lines that he wouldn't be able to change human "hosts" anytime soon. Obviously it was beneficial to him to appear as Locke to bank on the miracle aspect/gently caress with people, but was that a conscious decision or just how the smoke monster rules work? As far as I can tell, he stayed the MiB for a pretty long time; what caused him to lose that body? Would he have been able to drop Locke at any point in the future? I assume he was able to switch bodies as frequently as he did up until Locke by only appearing as those people for brief periods of time. How's this poo poo work?
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May 26, 2010 22:37
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It seems like he was stuck as Locke due to Jacob dying. This could be some side effect of the rules their mother put in place. It's one of the more ambiguous unanswered questions which I doubt they'll answer.
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May 26, 2010 22:39
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Vanrushal posted:Was there any explanation as to why Smokey got stuck as Locke? Ilana (I think) said something along the lines that he wouldn't be able to change human "hosts" anytime soon. Obviously it was beneficial to him to appear as Locke to bank on the miracle aspect/gently caress with people, but was that a conscious decision or just how the smoke monster rules work? As far as I can tell, he stayed the MiB for a pretty long time; what caused him to lose that body? Would he have been able to drop Locke at any point in the future? I assume he was able to switch bodies as frequently as he did up until Locke by only appearing as those people for brief periods of time. How's this poo poo work? He actively manipulated it so that he could become Locke. He tells Locke explicitly multiple times that he has to die, and then somehow arranges him to be brought back to the Island. Once there he starts his Long con. He is able to interchange between forms until Jacob dies at which point he can only change between his original smoke form and the character he is playing. He didn't lose the body of the MiB because he never had that body. He appeared as that body because he had an emotional connection to it since he was physically that man once. He can appear as whomever until Jacob dies. Then all rules are suspended until the new Jacob arrives.
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May 26, 2010 22:41
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Vanrushal posted:Was there any explanation as to why Smokey got stuck as Locke? Ilana (I think) said something along the lines that he wouldn't be able to change human "hosts" anytime soon. Obviously it was beneficial to him to appear as Locke to bank on the miracle aspect/gently caress with people, but was that a conscious decision or just how the smoke monster rules work? As far as I can tell, he stayed the MiB for a pretty long time; what caused him to lose that body? Would he have been able to drop Locke at any point in the future? I assume he was able to switch bodies as frequently as he did up until Locke by only appearing as those people for brief periods of time. How's this poo poo work? The best explanation I've heard(I think Illana alluded to this) is that he got stuck with the human Locke avatar when Jacob was killed. We see him change right up until that point. A few days before Jacob's death he turns into Alex in order to convince Ben to kill Jacob. Then a few days later he's unable to change forms. Another semi-alright explanation is that burying Locke's body made him stuck in that form which would explain why he would want to make Yemi and Christian's bodies disappear. With as little sense as this makes, I think the reason for the fertility problems on the island is because of The Incident. We see Ethan born a few days before the incident, and then after that there's no confirmed record of anyone conceiving/giving birth on the island since that point. They made a point about saying that the bomb was unstable, and it was an experimental nuke. By TV logic it seems to work. ErIog fucked around with this message at 22:51 on May 26, 2010 |
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May 26, 2010 22:41
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ErIog posted:Another semi-alright explanation is that burying Locke's body made him stuck in that form which would explain why he would want to make Yemi and Christian's bodies disappear. I would assume Isabella's body was buried by that point. Although it would have been amusing to see her as the antagonist for the season. Not to mention he appears as Libby on the boat who was buried: the producers said any instance of a dead person not seen by Hurley should be assumed to be the MiB.
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May 26, 2010 22:43
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Vanrushal posted:Was there any explanation as to why Smokey got stuck as Locke? Ilana (I think) said something along the lines that he wouldn't be able to change human "hosts" anytime soon. Obviously it was beneficial to him to appear as Locke to bank on the miracle aspect/gently caress with people, but was that a conscious decision or just how the smoke monster rules work? As far as I can tell, he stayed the MiB for a pretty long time; what caused him to lose that body? Would he have been able to drop Locke at any point in the future? I assume he was able to switch bodies as frequently as he did up until Locke by only appearing as those people for brief periods of time. How's this poo poo work? He chose to appear as Locke as part of his plan to gain access to Jacob's chamber. Being stuck could be part of the same phenomena that caused the waters to muddy. The island could have it's own series of failsafes that activate when there is no protector. Robotnik DDS fucked around with this message at 22:46 on May 26, 2010 |
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May 26, 2010 22:44
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Robotnik DDS posted:He chose to appear as Locke as part of his plan to gain access to Jacob's chamber. Being stuck could be part of the same phenomena that caused the waters to muddy. The island could have it's own series of failsafes that activate when there is no protector. I like this explanation, and it jives with what happened in the finale that there are ways to suspend the powers.
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May 26, 2010 22:52
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