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AccountSupervisor posted:Its just REALLY far fetched and makes huge leaps of logic. Its interesting but I feel like the evidence isnt enough. Maybe the "flash-sideways timeline is the failsafe" is too farfetched, but the way Desmond acts around MIB and Jack proves that some of what I have said must be true. Well I really don't like the flash-sideways timeline only being purgatory and that's that and I've found plenty of evidence showing that it's not just purgatory or a place after death. I don't understand why people aren't seeing what I'm seeing. Throw me some questions about my theory you don't think make sense. What parts of it do you disagree with? BIOJECT fucked around with this message at 11:03 on May 27, 2010 |
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May 27, 2010 11:01
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BIOJECT posted:Message to OP Walt was not talking to Michael, it was Ben in the Pearl. The reason the dialogue disappeared when Jack came in the room was because Ben was watching. BIOJECT posted:Maybe the "flash-sideways timeline is the failsafe" is too farfetched, but the way Desmond acts around MIB and Jack proves that some of what I have said must be true. I think the way Desmond acts around MiB/Jack shows that he didnt understand what the alt-reality was. He was wrong and its why he freaked out when his plan didnt work. He thought the original timeline didnt matter because they could just go live happily ever after but in fact it DID matter because that was his "real" life. Basically he was Jack in the end of season 5. He thought he could fix things but was wrong.
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May 27, 2010 11:10
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AccountSupervisor posted:Walt was not talking to Michael, it was Ben in the Pearl. The reason the dialogue disappeared when Jack came in the room was because Ben was watching. loving genius. See this is why we need a complete answers page!
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May 27, 2010 11:12
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AccountSupervisor posted:Its just REALLY far fetched and makes huge leaps of logic. Its interesting but I feel like the evidence isnt enough. I actually tried to go back through his "theory" and refute it point-by-point but it's just too goddamn long and seems like a waste of time. Bioject if you can pare down your explanation to something less than 5000 words. Maybe a paragraph or two, I will take you up on your challenge and show why you're wrong, but otherwise it's just too much like work. e: It seems like the main flaw is that you make valid symbolic connections between things but try to claim them as justification for why the narrative they gave us is actually wrong, but that's not how symbolism works. Be Depressive fucked around with this message at 11:36 on May 27, 2010 |
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May 27, 2010 11:30
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Cariad posted:I have a question that I think I know the answer to, but I want a critique. I have a different theory. For most of the main characters focused on in the flash sideways, in creating this reality for themselves, each one chose to do things better than they had in their actual life given the circumstances. Doing the right thing and having no regrets helps them move on. Why did Jack have a son? To show to himself that he could be a better father than his own father was to him. Others: -Sayid would never have let Nadia out of his life, even if it meant letting her be with his brother. -Kate would never actually have committed any crime. She believed she was killing her despicable step-father in the actual timeline, but was actually killing her own father. Why is she still accused of a crime in the flash sideways? Because it's in her nature to always be on the run, and in her narrow imagination, she couldn't conceive of any other way. -Locke would never have let Helen go. He also wouldn't have let his father con him, but instead developed a genuine relationship with him. Or perhaps his plane crash crippling his father was his way of preventing his father from eventually conning him. -Sawyer put it best, he had a choice of either being a criminal or a cop. He regretted his actions in his real life in becoming a con artist, so he became a cop instead. -Claire created a situation where it would have been impossible for her to give Aaron up. -Hurley, much of his bad luck could simply be attributed to his poor self-esteem. So, in the flash sideways, he simply had a better outlook on life. He was bad with girls though because he wanted to keep himself available for Libby. -Ben never would have killed his father, and put himself in a situation in which he could still become a father figure to Alex without actually kidnapping her. -Sun and Jin treated each other better than they did pre-island in the flash-sideways. Nihonniboku fucked around with this message at 11:46 on May 27, 2010 |
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May 27, 2010 11:32
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BIOJECT posted:
Regarding the bolded part: This is why your theory keeps getting criticized. You dont like it being the idea of purgatory so you are making a desperate attempt to cobble together a theory that fixes that Its not that its a "bad" theory. Its just you are trying to make the evidence fit a preconceived notion without adjusting your theory to the evidence. And anyways your ENTIRE theory hangs on your misunderstanding of Desmonds motivations/time travel. At least in the version. you just wrote There is an entire speech that literally says "This is a mental construct you and your friends made so that you could reflect on your lives" Jacks son is not his son because he doesnt exist. Exactly like you said in your theory, he is an NPC on a holodeck. A construct of Jacks desires and childhood issues. Also your reference to "The Constant" is incorrect. Future Desmond at that moment was not future Desmond. Leaving the island hosed with his consciousness and temporarily made it so PAST Desmond was now occupying the mind of future Desmond until he found his constant. My theory regarding the light as a counter argument to your theory: The losties returning to the light is simply their souls returning to the source to keep the energy flowing, this what Eve meant by "It is life, death, rebirth" It is literally the source of consciousness, the place where your soul goes after it has reconciled with itself, and where it is "rebirthed" as a new person. So, this means that if the light goes out, there is no more consciousness in the world. Beyond the island being sunk as a construct of Jacks desire to fix things and reverse everything, it CANT exist in purgatory because everybody is dead. Nihonniboku posted:I have a different theory. For most of the main characters focused on in the flash sideways, in creating this reality for themselves, each one chose to do things better than they had in their actual life given the circumstances. Doing the right thing and having no regrets helps them move on. Exactly this. This all supports that its a mental construct. Its why Desmond mistakenly thought it was a place they could go to but it was in fact a place they had to leave. AccountSupervisor fucked around with this message at 11:38 on May 27, 2010 |
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May 27, 2010 11:35
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Be Depressive posted:e: It seems like the main flaw is that you make valid symbolic connections between things but try to claim them as justification for why the narrative they gave us is actually wrong, but that's not how symbolism works. Quoting myself here, but That's not how criticism works either. There are very few works of fiction where it can be claimed the writers were actively lying to the audience in order to conceal hidden levels of narrative beneath the surface. Yes, you can always say that such-and-such author was actually talking about (insert intellectual topic here) even if he or she probably wasn't, but really you can't say that when Jane Eyre ran off to the Moors she actually died in the fire and everything thereafter was a death vision.
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May 27, 2010 11:48
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Can someone refresh my memory about what came of Taller Ghost Walt appearing to Locke after he'd been shot and left to die by Ben? What did he talk about with Walt when he actually saw him again? I mean, after going back to civilisation after turning the wheel. Was it actually Walt that appeared to him? And why? I'm having a hard time remembering.
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May 27, 2010 11:54
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Akuma posted:Can someone refresh my memory about what came of Taller Ghost Walt appearing to Locke after he'd been shot and left to die by Ben? What did he talk about with Walt when he actually saw him again? I mean, after going back to civilisation after turning the wheel. From Lostpedia: (2004) Back on the Island, after John awoke in the DHARMA mass grave, he found a gun and was preparing to kill himself. A manifestation of Walt appeared seconds before he was about to pull the trigger and told him to get up. Locke protested, saying that he couldn't move his legs. Walt said that he could use his legs because he has "work to do". After the survivors split into two groups, Locke's group, namely Sawyer and Hurley, questioned Locke on how he knew what to do. He revealed that he received his orders from Walt. When the group questioned him further on this, Locke merely stated that it was definitely "Walt, only taller." (2007) None of the Oceanic Six attempted to contact Walt after their rescue, but John Locke later visited Walt outside Fieldcroft School. Walt informed Locke that he had been having dreams of him back on the Island wearing a suit, surrounded by people who wanted to hurt him. Walt asked Locke if his father was back on the Island, as he had not seen him in three years. Locke avoided the true answer by telling Walt that the last he heard, Michael was on the freighter near the Island. Walt subsequently visited Hurley at Santa Rosa Mental Health Institute to ask why he and the others were lying about what happened on the Island. Hurley told him that the lie was meant to protect everyone they left behind—including, Hurley asserted, Michael, whom he maintained was still alive on the Island when Walt asked. http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Walt_Lloyd
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May 27, 2010 12:12
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BIOJECT posted:I'm going to move my big theory into this thread. Still wrong.
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May 27, 2010 12:16
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Be Depressive posted:From Lostpedia:
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May 27, 2010 12:20
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Based on what was said in done in the show, my thoughts about becoming the smoke monster is that's what happens when anyone goes into the Source pool where the cork is located. Some mystical/technobabble process strips your soul from your body and turns you into the smoke monster. If anyone else had found the cave and gone in there, they'd become another smoke monster and wouldn't replace an existing one. Mother knew this because she was a smoke monster. That's why she thanked MIB for killing her and we saw the source of the idea that if you could stab a smoke monster before they talked to you (you caught them completely off guard), you can kill them. Desmond didn't turn into a smoke monster because he was permanently imbued with so much electromagnetic energy from the Swan explosion. In a mystical/technobabble sense, it surrounded his mind/soul and prevented the stripping process. Jack didn't turn into a smoke monster because he turned it back on. The pool didn't have enough time to "charge" from the time he put the cork back in and eventually (somehow?!) left.
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May 27, 2010 12:27
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Cheesus posted:Jack didn't turn into a smoke monster because he turned it back on. The pool didn't have enough time to "charge" from the time he put the cork back in and eventually (somehow?!) left.
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May 27, 2010 12:34
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Akuma posted:Oh, yeah, so it never really got explained. Unless I'm misremembering, I guess that's one of those things that legitimately has no explanation that we can infer from stuff. Well, as far as I remember they never actually said that MiB could only take the form of dead people. Also Walt is known to have mysterious superpowers, but the weird thing is at that point in the storyline Walt wouldn't actually be any taller - my best guess is that they had planned to do something more elaborate with Walt, but the actor didn't really work out, so they transferred his part of the storyline over to Miles and/or Hurley. But yeah, there's really no explanation for this or any information from which we could infer what was happening there. I always thought it was obvious that after his later scenes with Locke and Hurley they were essentially done with the character, but maybe at some point they'd intended to bring him back to the island with the Oceanic 6, then abandoned his storyline entirely. e: they never explained at all what MiB did to become the smoke monster in the first place. Did he just fall down the waterfall into the pool of light at the bottom? There really wasn't time for anything else to happen. Why was his body cast out and those of others (the skeletons) were not? Why did the water stop flowing into the chamber when Desmond pulled the plug? As for Jack, the simplest explanation is being the island's protector provides some sort of immunity. Be Depressive fucked around with this message at 13:40 on May 27, 2010 |
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May 27, 2010 12:36
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Be Depressive posted:Well, as far as I remember they never actually said that MiB could only take the form of dead people. Also Walt is known to have mysterious superpowers, but the weird thing is at that point in the storyline Walt wouldn't actually be any taller - my best guess is that they had planned to do something more elaborate with Walt, but the actor didn't really work out, so they transferred his part of the storyline over to Miles and/or Hurley. I accepted that they had plans for Walt, but because the actor didn't work out - ageing, etc. they just transferred some of his plot line around like they did with Mr. Eko. If they really wanted to they could have brought him back older and just explained away his ageing with time-fuckery, or just not explained it and let us goons theorycraft the poo poo out of it. "Well, Michael didn't travel away at exactly 295 degrees, so since Walt was just a child it's likely the time bubble effected him differently resulting in rapid ageing until adolescence."
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May 27, 2010 14:03
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Wait a drat minute.... So, we've been told that every incarnation of Christian Shepherd on the island was the Man in Black, correct? Including the one who appeared in Jacob's Cabin, correct? The one who told Locke to move the island? The cabin that was surrounded by a black ash that the Man in Black wasn't able to cross?
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May 27, 2010 14:27
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the posted:Wait a drat minute.... No. I don't think anyone said that. And even if they did, they probably are not reliable. But to answer your question, I think there was a hole in the ash.
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May 27, 2010 14:35
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euphronius posted:No. I don't think anyone said that. And even if they did, they probably are not reliable. Well, I don't think anyone explicitly said that every version of him was, but the MiB is the only person we know who can appear as dead people, and he did say to Jack that he is the one who appeared to him and led him to the caves originally.
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May 27, 2010 14:39
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the posted:The cabin that was surrounded by a black ash that the Man in Black wasn't able to cross? The circle of ash was broken a long time ago. That's why Jacob no longer used it, and MiB was able to get in.
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May 27, 2010 14:40
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So my biggest question was how did Keamy learn to make good eggs? I thought that was a pretty important plotline they never explained. Also, what's his egg recipe?
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May 27, 2010 14:49
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Cheesus posted:Based on what was said in done in the show, my thoughts about becoming the smoke monster is that's what happens when anyone goes into the Source pool where the cork is located. Some mystical/technobabble process strips your soul from your body and turns you into the smoke monster. If anyone else had found the cave and gone in there, they'd become another smoke monster and wouldn't replace an existing one. I think simpler is that we know ghosts exist in LOST, so you don't need a special process to "strip a soul" thats a normal thing that can happen when you die. I also don't think you need special smoke monster rules, I think it's easy enough to say it's just a ghost that contacted the source of all life and is infused with great power but he was filled with anger and rage and pain so he was a crazy ghost that could turn into black clouds and do a ton of other stuff. Jack isn't a smoke monster because he went to heaven, if he turned into a ghost at the source he would have been infused with crazy power too, but not being an angry dude full of rage and pain, probably wouldn't be a monster.
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May 27, 2010 14:50
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mew force shoelace posted:Jack isn't a smoke monster because he went to heaven, if he turned into a ghost at the source he would have been infused with crazy power too, but not being an angry dude full of rage and pain, probably wouldn't be a monster. Visitor's to Hurley's island in the future will speak of their encounters with the fluffy white cloud monster.
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May 27, 2010 15:14
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chazburgr posted:So my biggest question was how did Keamy learn to make good eggs? I thought that was a pretty important plotline they never explained. Also, what's his egg recipe? Don't you watch the loving show? Geesh... there was a shot on the freighter with Jin where there was clearly the Betty Crocker Cookbook on one of the shelves. All the answers have already been given to us.
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May 27, 2010 16:25
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I think the other skeletons weren't turned into smoke because they died after falling off that cliff but before getting in the pool of glowing water. The MiB didn't die because Jacob threw him in there and Jacob can't kill his brother. This allowed him to crawl into the glowing water and turn to smoke. Desmond was special which is why he was brought back to the island so he could enter the pool without turning to smoke and Jack got flushed out before the pool got its powers back.
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May 27, 2010 16:39
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Hardflip posted:The circle of ash was broken a long time ago. That's why Jacob no longer used it, and MiB was able to get in. Speaking of the Ajira people, here's my theory on them: Jacob wants his replacements to have free will, and he doesn't want to talk to them or influence them directly, hence posting Richard as just an "advisor" to them. But just in case things went wrong, he recruited these people to use as the muscle if necessary. Since they're not candidates he probably even interacted with them (Ilana, Bram, etc.). I guess this isn't that original of a theory or anything since I just read MIB actually called them "Jacob's bodyguards" at one point. Fast Luck fucked around with this message at 16:54 on May 27, 2010 |
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May 27, 2010 16:52
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speaking of smokey and the cave. can anyone go back and check how long it took between MIB floating down into the cave and the black smoke flying out? i remember it being pretty much instanteous like he hit the floor after the waterfall and then flew up as smoke. or was there a pause? time enough for him to wake up, crawl into the pool and then transform?
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May 27, 2010 17:05
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The bomb going off created the purgatory world and it was completely contained in the swan until Desmond turned the failsafe key and that's when everyone was in the church and the show ended. The purgatory world is our main characters "swan song."
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May 27, 2010 17:12
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Be Depressive posted:Quoting myself here, but That's not how criticism works either. There are very few works of fiction where it can be claimed the writers were actively lying to the audience in order to conceal hidden levels of narrative beneath the surface. Yes, you can always say that such-and-such author was actually talking about (insert intellectual topic here) even if he or she probably wasn't, but really you can't say that when Jane Eyre ran off to the Moors she actually died in the fire and everything thereafter was a death vision. That's a bad example because if there is evidence in the text you could absolutely make that assertion, though at your own peril if you do a bad job arguing it. A better example (from a more recent text) would be arguing that Harvey Dent wasn't Two Face even though we saw him become Two Face on screen.
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May 27, 2010 17:17
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It was pretty quick. I don't see how he'd crawl into the pool, anyway, cos he was unconscious.
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May 27, 2010 17:17
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What became of Keamy, Mikhail and the others Sayid killed in the purgatory world? Why was he allowed to kill people and still go to heaven at the end?
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May 27, 2010 17:23
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Adrianics posted:What became of Keamy, Mikhail and the others Sayid killed in the purgatory world? Why was he allowed to kill people and still go to heaven at the end? It isn't "Heaven". Stop bringing in Christian ideas.
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May 27, 2010 17:24
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Adrianics posted:What became of Keamy, Mikhail and the others Sayid killed in the purgatory world? Why was he allowed to kill people and still go to heaven at the end? Edit: I also imagine that Keamy and Mikhail would be trapped as ghosties like Michael, too.
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May 27, 2010 17:25
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Adrianics posted:What became of Keamy, Mikhail and the others Sayid killed in the purgatory world? Why was he allowed to kill people and still go to heaven at the end? They probably have their own afterlife to work through their problems. Maybe in his afterlife, Keamy finally perfects his egg recipe and opens a successful breakfast diner, thereby never having to resort to mercenary thuggery.
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May 27, 2010 17:27
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Akuma posted:Because those people were probably constructs. We're told it's a world they created together, not some place where everybody goes when they die. Ah the latter was the part I struggled with. I guess that also goes for Jack and Juliette's son? euphronius posted:It isn't "Heaven". Stop bringing in Christian ideas. Still though, I assumed that the reason Michael was damned to the island for eternity was because of "what he'd done", which I took to mean the murders of Ana-Lucia and Libby - Does Sayid get a free pass because he killed constructs and not real people? vvv makes sense, thanks 
Adrianics fucked around with this message at 17:33 on May 27, 2010 |
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May 27, 2010 17:27
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Adrianics posted:
Michael could not GET OVER what he had done. Which was why he was "trapped" and why Ben did not go.
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May 27, 2010 17:30
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Was there ever a point to the whole Sun buying out her fathers business/meeting with Widmore in London subplot in season 5?
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May 27, 2010 17:33
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Cariad posted:Everyone in purgatory was real, so who was Jack's son and why wasn't he in the Church? I believe he was a person that was in purgatory to get the chance to relive a childhood he never had, with a mother and father and a normal upbringing. He was a person that's pre-death life was never governed by his own hopes or dreams, and to move on all he needed was his missing chances fulfilled. This is an interesting theory that is probably not true, just because I doubt the writers put that much thought into it. If it was true though, I think it would be cool if Jack's son was also Jack. It would mean that Jack solves his father issues both by being a good father and having a good father.
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May 27, 2010 17:40
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Bigass Moth posted:Was there ever a point to the whole Sun buying out her fathers business/meeting with Widmore in London subplot in season 5? It was to show us that Sun was determined to find her husbant 
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May 27, 2010 17:43
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One possible explanation for the inconsistencies and odd behavior of the smoke monster when meeting Eko and Locke: there was an older "smoke monster" who was more or less benign. The hieroglyphics suggest that the smoke monster once acted as a guardian, which is inconsistent with what we know about MiB. This *could* be whose skeleton was inside the heart of the island. It could also explain certain dreams, what was in the cabin, and the appearance of certain dead folks who didn't die on the island and/or who were mysteriously helpful, like Ben's mom. Especially to Ben, who wasn't special.
MiraariM fucked around with this message at 17:53 on May 27, 2010 |
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May 27, 2010 17:49
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myklayman posted:One possible explanation for the inconsistencies and odd behavior of the smoke monster when meeting Eko and Locke: there was an older "smoke monster" who was more or less benign. The hieroglyphics suggest that the smoke monster once acted as a guardian, which is inconsistent with what we know about MiB. This *could* be whose skeleton was inside the heart of the island. It could also explain certain dreams, what was in the cabin, and the appearance of certain dead folks who didn't die on the island and/or who were mysteriously helpful, like Ben's mom. Especially to Ben, who wasn't special. The smoke monster always existed. How do you think The Mother destroyed the camp? When the MiB died inside the Source, his spirit joined up with the monster. This is why the smoke monster had memories of the MiB. Similarly, this is what happened to Jack when he died inside the Source.
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May 27, 2010 18:09
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