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I like turtles posted:Cyrano has summed it up as: they're an antiquated, extremely complex design that is difficult to make run properly, and they end up as expensive, or more, as war era ones. A number of folks have attempted making new productions ones, all have stopped fairly soon thereafter. Germans love making things ridiculously complicated. It's the national pasttime.
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| # ? Jul 3, 2010 21:01 |
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| # ? May 24, 2013 12:24 |
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the ohmebaglod flag posted:Germans love making things ridiculously complicated. It's the national pasttime. To expand on what everyone else has already basically said: Well, they weren't THAT complicated in 1908 for a semi-auto pistol. Compare them to the Borschardt, for example. Tooling is also a huge problem. The original tooling was worn down, literally, to the nub. They ceased production in 1941 more or less because the last of the original machines finally got wore the gently caress out. To recreate that would require a poo poo ton of specialized jigs and tooling and skilled machinists to make all the little parts. In 1914 highly skilled machinists were fairly inexpensive to employ. Today, not so much if you're anyplace but China. The real problem is how niche the audience for them is. There just aren't enough people who want a Luger and, frankly, even if the guns were priced in the same ballpark as a modern production semi-auto they would still be only as cheap as a shooter grade. The design hasn't aged as well as other designs of that period as well. Where the 1911 was the first modern semi-auto, the Luger was the last 19th century semi-auto pistol. There is frankly no practical reason to own one, purely collecting ones. There were millions of them made, they're simply not THAT uncommon. Do some price hunting for a few months and you can find a shooter Luger in the $600 ballpark. That said, now and again SOMEONE runs off some new production Lugers, usually as commemoration pieces. I think Krieghoff made a few thousand using original blueprints back 5 years ago or so. They were priced pretty crazy high as well - I think they run about $2k. To give a frame of reference, I got a sweatheart deal on my magazine mismatch WW2 era P08 and it ran me in the $1200 ballpark. That's for a gun that is in really damned good shape and is, minus the mag, 100% matching - it's nice enough that while I'm not afraid to shoot it, I certainly don't shoot it often, and never with the original firing pin or extractor. They're not really difficult to make run properly. Having learned a bit about both designs, I actually think it's an easier gun to make work properly than a 1911. That said, the production is a lot more complex than a 1911 or really any other gun designed after Browning finally figured out what a modern semi-auto is supposed to look like and how it's supposed to function. Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at Jul 3, 2010 around 23:04 |
| # ? Jul 3, 2010 23:02 |
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Cyrano4747 posted:I certainly don't shoot it often, and never with the original firing pin or extractor. I know the real reason you do this. J'accuse!
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| # ? Jul 3, 2010 23:07 |
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infrared35 posted:I know the real reason you do this. J'accuse!  I had to think about that one for a second. Then again, I suppose I should be careful about telling a DIRTY FED that I have a spare barrel for my Sig.  edit: no way you're trapping me into selling you any non-firearm air rifles either 
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| # ? Jul 3, 2010 23:15 |
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Cyrano4747 posted:edit: no way you're trapping me into selling you any non-firearm air rifles either I tried to buy a T/C Hawken the other day and when I rolled up the seller started throwing up gang signs and walked away.
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| # ? Jul 3, 2010 23:25 |
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infrared35 posted:I tried to buy a T/C Hawken the other day and when I rolled up the seller started throwing up gang signs and walked away. You've got the look. In the name of PERSEC get yourself a rasta wig or something when you go out.
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| # ? Jul 3, 2010 23:36 |
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Neo Mara posted:You've got the look. In the name of PERSEC get yourself a rasta wig or something when you go out. Good idea. "I say eh, mon!"
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| # ? Jul 3, 2010 23:48 |
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Hey king let I and I get holda dat gat and ting sight respect I've been playing GTA4 again.
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| # ? Jul 4, 2010 00:33 |
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 Classicarms has G1 FALs for 650? Can anyone explain provenance for these or build quality, any kind of idea what we're dancing with?
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| # ? Jul 4, 2010 01:31 |
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kuffs posted:I was just about to ask a similar question. Is non-chlorinated brake cleaner safe for nickel finishes? hate to thinly-veil-bump my own question, but whats a safe nickel cleaning method?
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| # ? Jul 4, 2010 02:11 |
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Cheap Bourbon posted:hate to thinly-veil-bump my own question, but whats a safe nickel cleaning method? CLP is probably safe. I hope it is - I just used it to clean the hell out of a nickel-plated gun. According to the MSDS, there are no ammonia-based compounds in CLP. It seems like pretty tame stuff... which explains why nobody really likes it as a cleaner or as a lubricant. Or even as a protectant.
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| # ? Jul 4, 2010 02:25 |
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infrared35 posted:CLP is probably safe. I hope it is - I just used it to clean the hell out of a nickel-plated gun. According to the MSDS, there are no ammonia-based compounds in CLP. It seems like pretty tame stuff... which explains why nobody really likes it as a cleaner or as a lubricant. Or even as a protectant. I tried CLP on the pistol, but its simply caked around the cylinder with residue from my new-found love of 4756 reloads. I do have the option of re-plating it thru S&W Performance center for less than $300 (if I ruin the finish, (it was ugly, but the price was right) but that requires me to spend money on a gun I barely have $300 in it. edit: And Mr RWB, whoever you are, your SO/widow sold the best gun I ever shot to a store who cut me a deal because I complained about the spider-webbed finish. You sir, had one of the finest guns to ever make it out of the factory in the dark days, I hesitate to compromise the mechanical accuracy of this firearm. Cheap Bourbon fucked around with this message at Jul 4, 2010 around 02:50 |
| # ? Jul 4, 2010 02:48 |
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Try non-CL brake cleaner. According to the MSDS that's basically just acetone and xylene, so no ammonia in that either. You could also try Purple Power. That's basically just Sodium Hydroxide. I'd be a LITTLE more wary of using PP since I'm not sure what, exactly, the chemistry is that makes ammonia a no-go, and if it's an oxidation reaction you could still get something with the hydroxide half of PP. That said, PP is pretty tame stuff with most metals I've found. It sure as poo poo doesn't bother bluing, so there's that at least.
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| # ? Jul 4, 2010 03:24 |
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Other thing you might try is Gunzilla. It's supposed to work wonders, and it's also supposed to be completely non-toxic. I just looked over the MSDS for it a few days ago, but I wasn't looking specifically for ammonia compounds.
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| # ? Jul 4, 2010 03:31 |
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Cyrano4747 posted:I'd be a LITTLE more wary of using PP since I'm not sure what, exactly, the chemistry is that makes ammonia a no-go, and if it's an oxidation reaction you could still get something with the hydroxide half of PP.
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| # ? Jul 4, 2010 03:41 |
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I've used Ballistol on my nickel plated RIA 1911, doesn't seem to be eating away on anything. My skin oils, though, have created a nice patina on the front and back straps. Ballistol was originally designed for cleaning black powder guns, and has done a good job so far. It's also non-toxic. To me it smells like licorice, although a lot of people find it to be closer to fermented rear end.
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| # ? Jul 4, 2010 03:50 |
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Pitch posted:I believe ammonia is bad because it's viciously corrosive to copper, which is underneath the nickel plating and can be exposed by even a tiny nick. Non-ammonia cleansers should be fairly safe even if they are harsh chemicals. Ammonia will also coordinate to nickel ions, allowing them to dissolve. The simplified chemistry is that most metals are either protected by an oxide layer (aluminium, titanium, chrome plating, etc.) or are at a combination of pH and difficulty to oxidise that prevents the bare metal from corroding. The equilibrium in the second case is perturbed by additional compounds that tightly bind to dissolved metal ions. Ammonia and other amine compounds will do this to copper and nickel. This then allows oxygen to react with the metal surface. Strong bases and fluoride solutions will have the same effect on metals that are protected by oxide layers. Chloride works similarly on steel and other iron alloys, thus the problem with primers that produce chloride as a combustion product. I hope this is useful to all of you when choosing how best to dissolve your used drop gun.
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| # ? Jul 4, 2010 04:14 |
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Frozen Horse posted:Ammonia will also coordinate to nickel ions, allowing them to dissolve. The simplified chemistry is that most metals are either protected by an oxide layer (aluminium, titanium, chrome plating, etc.) or are at a combination of pH and difficulty to oxidise that prevents the bare metal from corroding. The equilibrium in the second case is perturbed by additional compounds that tightly bind to dissolved metal ions. Ammonia and other amine compounds will do this to copper and nickel. This then allows oxygen to react with the metal surface. Strong bases and fluoride solutions will have the same effect on metals that are protected by oxide layers. Chloride works similarly on steel and other iron alloys, thus the problem with primers that produce chloride as a combustion product. I hope this is useful to all of you when choosing how best to dissolve your used drop gun. Seems good old sulfuric acid would beat them all unless I needed to dispose of a body also. PP from my test is mostly safe. The blued piece of metal I dropped it still looks good after sitting in it for a few days. The dried axle grease and dirt are no where to be found. Keep chlorine away from anything you ever care about. That poo poo will ruin brass, chrome (attacks the nickel base), and steal. On the other hand, if you ever find yourself in need of permanently welding two pieces of metal together, drop some shock it on it, wet, and let sit for a couple weeks. It will become as frozen in place as if you welded it. Also of use for this is aluminum nitrate and ammonium nitrate fertilizers.
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| # ? Jul 4, 2010 05:02 |
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Just finished firing 26.5mm flares via adapter from my 37mm launcher for the first time. Was a blast. Will fire a whole bunch more at the lake w/ family tomorrow. Should i dump pics/vids in the photo thread or try and start a 37mm fun thread? PS - thanks to TTFA for selling me the launcher and putting up with months of me being a delinquent therewith
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| # ? Jul 4, 2010 06:11 |
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Otto Skorzeny posted:start a 37mm fun thread? Yes, do this. I'm interested in learning more.
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| # ? Jul 4, 2010 06:15 |
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Propagandalf posted:Yes, do this. I'm interested in learning more. Second this. I'm curious 
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| # ? Jul 4, 2010 08:04 |
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That is what I forgot to buy this year. Hell yes pics
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| # ? Jul 4, 2010 11:45 |
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Capn Beeb posted:Hey king let I and I get holda dat gat and ting sight respect Wa gwan star? I still need to finish that drat game, I'm at the very last mission. But my xbox is broken. 
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| # ? Jul 4, 2010 12:21 |
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Otto Skorzeny posted:Just finished firing 26.5mm flares via adapter from my 37mm launcher for the first time. Was a blast. Will fire a whole bunch more at the lake w/ family tomorrow. Should i dump pics/vids in the photo thread or try and start a 37mm fun thread? No worries, but at some point one of us has to break down and actually load up 37mm chalk shells. I still have my brass, nosecones, instructions, and everything else, but it's being gunsat by another goon while I'm overseas. Still no idea where I'm going after this, though I might end up back in DC for at least a little bit. If I go to DC or Florida, vice another overseas gig, I'll try to finally get around to loading up some "orange chalk o' death" shells for that puppy.
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| # ? Jul 4, 2010 12:50 |
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Thanks for clearing the stuff about the Luger guys. It's always been one of those strange iconic guns I've been interested in from afar but will probably never own.
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| # ? Jul 4, 2010 18:55 |
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Mxlplx posted:Thanks for clearing the stuff about the Luger guys. It's always been one of those strange iconic guns I've been interested in from afar but will probably never own. Quoting for inevitable box thread within two years...
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| # ? Jul 4, 2010 20:43 |
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I like turtles posted:Quoting for inevitable box thread within two years... Heh, I have to post a collection thread some day first.
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| # ? Jul 4, 2010 22:56 |
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Pitch posted:I believe ammonia is bad because it's viciously corrosive to copper, which is underneath the nickel plating and can be exposed by even a tiny nick. Non-ammonia cleansers should be fairly safe even if they are harsh chemicals. I've never heard of copper being under nickel plating, well not under electroless (which is what you want for a gun), not sure about electroplated nickel but I wouldn't want that on a gun either.
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| # ? Jul 5, 2010 07:31 |
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This is a random bit of curiosity. One of my favorite guns, looks-wise, is the Wildey Magnum. I haven't heard much nice about it, but I was wondering if anyone in TFR had any experience or knowledge of the pistol. Besides the ammo shortages, is it really an awful gun? I'm not asking for the sake of buying one, I'm still on .22lr and I think such a reportedly harsh gun would be... really overkill right now.
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| # ? Jul 5, 2010 07:45 |
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Completely random gun cleaning related question...does Break Free or Hoppe's have the possibility of setting off a Carbon Monoxide detector? Reason I ask was that I was doing some cleaning tonight (trying to clean up the bore on my new K98k) and my detector just randomly started going off, saying there was explosive gas in the house (i.e., propane/methane/natural gas). Seeing as how that should be pretty clearly indicated by the smell, I'm pretty sure that wasn't it, and I feel fine, no CO or other poisoning symptoms. I'm just trying to figure out if my detector is crapping out or if it was a false positive. Also, if I don't respond to this, you'll know what happened.  Edit: Before anyone asks, no, I'm not just sitting here with my muffs on while the detector goes off...I ventilated the house and it doesn't seem to be going off anymore, so it was either a false positive or it's just crapping out. iyaayas01 fucked around with this message at Jul 5, 2010 around 09:24 |
| # ? Jul 5, 2010 09:19 |
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iyaayas01 posted:Completely random gun cleaning related question...does Break Free or Hoppe's have the possibility of setting off a Carbon Monoxide detector? Reason I ask was that I was doing some cleaning tonight (trying to clean up the bore on my new K98k) and my detector just randomly started going off, saying there was explosive gas in the house (i.e., propane/methane/natural gas). Seeing as how that should be pretty clearly indicated by the smell, I'm pretty sure that wasn't it, and I feel fine, no CO or other poisoning symptoms. I'm just trying to figure out if my detector is crapping out or if it was a false positive. IIRC Hoppes 9 is a good fraction kerosene, whose fumes may have done it.
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| # ? Jul 5, 2010 10:24 |
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Hold an open bottle of hoppes under the detector for a few seconds and see if it goes off?
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| # ? Jul 5, 2010 13:51 |
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I would imagine that the detector detects hydrocarbons, and kerosene vapor is hydrocarbons sooo...
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| # ? Jul 5, 2010 14:22 |
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Ninja Rope posted:Hold an open bottle of hoppes under the detector for a few seconds and see if it goes off? Unless it's a 4-gas meter, I don't see it happening. Last time I checked, household CO detectors don't measure LEL. Also, don't test stuff like this. You will saturate the detector and cause it to work poorly.
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| # ? Jul 5, 2010 14:23 |
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iyaayas01 posted:Completely random gun cleaning related question...does Break Free or Hoppe's have the possibility of setting off a Carbon Monoxide detector? CO2 detecters don't actually measure CO2 levels - that's too expensive. They measure O2 percentage. In new houses (sealed up tight) with fire places, we often get called out when people have been burning a good sized fire for many hours without opening a door or window because of a CO2 alarm activation. We never find anything wrong, because people leave the house and/or open windows. It had me confused, so I did some investigating. I actually left a 4-gas meter with one of the homeowners this was happening to frequently. Within a week it happened again, and they turned on the meter. 18% O2 (should be around 21%). The house was so well sealed up that they literally burnt up all that oxygen and the vacuum wasn't enough to overcome the seals on the doors/windows to drag in any make-up air. So, unless you displaced that much oxygen, no, it's not the chemicals. If its a gas vapor detector, I've had everything from diesel exhaust to cat piss set those off. Hoppes and CLP wouldn't surprise me in the least bit.
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| # ? Jul 5, 2010 14:48 |
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Motronic posted:CO2 detecters 
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| # ? Jul 5, 2010 14:50 |
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It sounds like he's actually got a 4-gas detector:iyaayas01 posted:[M]y detector just randomly started going off, saying there was explosive gas in the house (i.e., propane/methane/natural gas).
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| # ? Jul 5, 2010 15:39 |
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LvK posted:This is a random bit of curiosity. One of my favorite guns, looks-wise, is the Wildey Magnum. I haven't heard much nice about it, but I was wondering if anyone in TFR had any experience or knowledge of the pistol. Besides the ammo shortages, is it really an awful gun? Somehow I think a .44 Magnum version would be popular; I would buy one in a heartbeat and revel in the ability to ever find more ammo. (edit) can someone explain to me why the silhouette version is not an NFA violation? has got a wooden forend designed to be held with the off hand which I thought would make it an AOW, but they are being sold as perfectly plain handguns. nnnnghhhhgnnngh fucked around with this message at Jul 5, 2010 around 16:32 |
| # ? Jul 5, 2010 16:20 |
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nnnnghhhhgnnngh posted:(edit) can someone explain to me why the silhouette version is not an NFA violation? has got a wooden forend designed to be held with the off hand which I thought would make it an AOW, but they are being sold as perfectly plain handguns. The barrel length is >16" so it might be sold as a rifle instead of a pistol. That's the only way I can think of.
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| # ? Jul 5, 2010 16:37 |
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| # ? May 24, 2013 12:24 |
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A forend isn't necessarily intended to be held by the off-hand. All T/C pistols have them, so do AR and AK pistols.
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| # ? Jul 5, 2010 16:46 |
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