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Lycus posted:Since I really hated what they ended up doing with the Minbari Civil War in the show, having the warrior caste win and go on a campaign of conquest sounds like it could've been interesting. It comes at the cost of about the last third of the G'Kar/Londo story. G'Kar would have been on the Narn homeworld for the better part of a season. The Vorlon/Shadow conflict would have been unresolved by the end of the five year arc. And the Earth civil war subplot would have been completely replaced by the Minbari warrior caste exiling the Grey Council and resuming the war against Earth. (Earth would also have been blamed for the destruction of a giant Vorlon ship holding most of the Vorlon population.) And the "new age" of the Galaxy was literally Delenn and Sinclair's hybrid son. The Warrior caste coup would have been founded on the sort of ethnic purity lines that got transferred in the actual show to some of the Religious caste. Possibly John Vickery could have made the original plan work. But I'm happy with how things turned out overall, even if this particular bit could have been handled better.
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Jul 19, 2014 22:47
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Trading it for Narn/Centauri stuff and Earth Civil War would be an awful trade, yeah. But I wasn't really talking about doing the original plot entirely, but of finding a way to work a warrior caste coup into what we got. I'd trade a Minbari coup subplot in early S5 for Byron stuff for example. But really, I would've rather they removed the Minbari Civil War entirely because what was in the show was bad.
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Jul 19, 2014 22:55
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neongrey posted:The thing is, 'always the plan' doesn't need to start from the first draft. Sinclair being Valen may have been always the intention once he was cast, or something like that. I wouldn't even call that deceptive, given it's expected that very first treatement is going to change wildly no matter what. Or at least once O'Hare left. I thought the idea behind Catherine Sakai was that she would survey Z'ha'dum and get caught by the Shadows and return the at the end of season 3 to Sinclair, same way Anna Sheridan appears.
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Jul 19, 2014 22:56
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I figured that was intention because it makes a lot of sense.
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Jul 19, 2014 22:58
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Lycus posted:I'd trade a Minbari coup subplot in early S5 for Byron stuff for example. I'd trade just about anything for the Byron stuff
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Jul 19, 2014 23:20
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Narsham posted:The full brief is 8 pages, so I'm obviously summarizing a lot. Yeah I came across the synopsis a while back, if you ever feel like typing up that full brief 
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Jul 19, 2014 23:23
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I've always felt that the Minbari Civil War thing was the biggest casualty of the whole compressed "oh poo poo we're getting canceled, gotta get all done NOW NOW NOW!" thing at the end of Season 4. Just like Byron and the telepaths got hurt on the other side in Season 5 when it was "oh, we're not canceled? Umm...now what?" The Minbari Civil War was stupidly rushed. The whole thing goes from tension to war to religious caste are losing to beam of light ex machina in what, four episodes? Meanwhile, Byron and the telepaths got stretched out to the point of tedium because they had to fill episodes. Knowing that it wasn't exactly their fault due to the way PTEN was dying isn't much consolation, alas. 
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Jul 20, 2014 00:36
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jng2058 posted:The Minbari Civil War was stupidly rushed. The whole thing goes from tension to war to religious caste are losing to beam of light ex machina in what, four episodes? Meanwhile, Byron and the telepaths got stretched out to the point of tedium because they had to fill episodes. I'm pretty sure the whole thing was in two episodes. e: Looked it up. 4x13 and 4x14.
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Jul 20, 2014 00:42
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It gave us some awesome Neroon moments at least.
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Jul 20, 2014 00:58
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Lycus posted:I figured that was intention because it makes a lot of sense. JMS denied for years that Sakai was going to have Anna Sheridan's arc. It made little sense to me at the time since it was so obvious (just like Sinclair leaving the show for reasons unrelated to "oh his arc was done.")
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Jul 20, 2014 01:09
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monster on a stick posted:JMS denied for years that Sakai was going to have Anna Sheridan's arc. It made little sense to me at the time since it was so obvious (just like Sinclair leaving the show for reasons unrelated to "oh his arc was done.") I just see how that could be true. "Ya it was just a coincidence that the love interest of my 2 station leaders both had strong ties to zahadum." Really?
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Jul 20, 2014 06:41
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hope and vaseline posted:It gave us some awesome Neroon moments at least. I don't remember them, honestly. When I think of Neroon in that arc, I just remember "I'm really religious!" or whatever he says while he walks into stupid light.
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Jul 20, 2014 06:50
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jng2058 posted:I've always felt that the Minbari Civil War thing was the biggest casualty of the whole compressed "oh poo poo we're getting canceled, gotta get all done NOW NOW NOW!" thing at the end of Season 4. Just like Byron and the telepaths got hurt on the other side in Season 5 when it was "oh, we're not canceled? Umm...now what?" Ya, the arc ends with the Socialist Workers Republic of Minbar or something but do we ever even see a Worker Caste person other than the faceless guys on the Grey Council?
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Jul 20, 2014 08:53
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The Minbari annoyed me to the extent they were portrayed as wise, just, and noble people. They were assholes half of the time, and smugly inscrutable most of the rest of the time. They didn't seem particularly advanced morally: they were just older, had more advanced technology, and had been around for the First Shadow War. Not that they put too much effort building bridges with the other races and making sure when the Shadows came around again, they'd be prepared and be able to withstand the assault (or even win). Maybe I'm being too harsh. I should rewatch the show again to see if maybe they were a bit more awesome than I recollect.
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Jul 20, 2014 12:26
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ibntumart posted:The Minbari annoyed me to the extent they were portrayed as wise, just, and noble people. They were assholes half of the time, and smugly inscrutable most of the rest of the time. They didn't seem particularly advanced morally: they were just older, had more advanced technology, and had been around for the First Shadow War. Not that they put too much effort building bridges with the other races and making sure when the Shadows came around again, they'd be prepared and be able to withstand the assault (or even win). No, that's pretty much it, but the point of it is that it's a lie and that they're not wise or just or noble. "Minbari do not lie," they say, unless a Minbari decides that they need to save face or whatever. Which is a pretty lenient rule. They are, at their core, a bunch of insular jerks.
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Jul 20, 2014 12:34
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That was one of the parts I really liked. The nobility they're initially portrayed with is systematically taken away throughout the story, and at the end you're left with the Minbari being just as bad as everyone else is, but better at selling it. Same with the Vorlons. I like that none of the sides in B5 are just straight up good or evil. Even the Shadows make a certain kind of sense, and are less reprehensible when you see the way the Vorlons are equally guilty in the whole thing. I guess you never see anything redeeming about the Drakh, but they're barely in the show.
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Jul 20, 2014 12:43
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Yeah the Minbari really buy into their own hype but that's all it is, hype. They even have a whole "honor" thing that's even more hosed up and bullshit-y than DS9 era Klingons. Remember how butthurt they were about Sheridan blowing up the Blackstar? A ship that was going back to slaughter a bunch of defenseless survivors. The Minbari are loving awful.
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Jul 20, 2014 13:21
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Q_res posted:Yeah the Minbari really buy into their own hype but that's all it is, hype. They even have a whole "honor" thing that's even more hosed up and bullshit-y than DS9 era Klingons. Remember how butthurt they were about Sheridan blowing up the Blackstar? A ship that was going back to slaughter a bunch of defenseless survivors.
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Jul 20, 2014 13:35
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I remember feeling the same way re: disliking the Minbari in the first couple seasons, but once they started getting called out for being self-righteous to the point of no-poo poo delusional, I started to appreciate the earlier ~we are the best oh yes we are~ exposition a bit more. Still gets real drat old after a while, but, eh, w/e
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Jul 20, 2014 13:44
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Grand Fromage posted:That was one of the parts I really liked. The nobility they're initially portrayed with is systematically taken away throughout the story, and at the end you're left with the Minbari being just as bad as everyone else is, but better at selling it. Same with the Vorlons. I like that none of the sides in B5 are just straight up good or evil. Even the Shadows make a certain kind of sense, and are less reprehensible when you see the way the Vorlons are equally guilty in the whole thing. I guess you never see anything redeeming about the Drakh, but they're barely in the show. I guess if you can see the Drakh as the children who loved one of the parents and who, therefore, got the raw end of the deal when all their unknown siblings kicked mommy and daddy out and didn't consult them on it then there might be a bit of sympathy. You wake up one day and your parents are all just gone.
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Jul 20, 2014 14:04
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The best is all those times Delenn tells Lennier not to do something or that something would be dishonorable and he spends all day playing Minbari rules lawyer to figure out a way to do it anyway.
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Jul 20, 2014 16:19
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Luigi Thirty posted:The best is all those times Delenn tells Lennier not to do something or that something would be dishonorable and he spends all day playing Minbari rules lawyer to figure out a way to do it anyway. Well, he is the ultimate "nice guy" who can't take a hint.
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Jul 20, 2014 17:37
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radintorov posted:And that's what makes them great: they are introduced as being basically "space elves", all spiritual and wise and superior in every way, shape or form; but then it's slowly shown, more and more, how they are like everyone else, if not worse. Ya I think they were pretty much what JMS wanted them to be: seem elegant and awesome but actually messed up like everyone else. I don't know why the fact that they aren't actually pure or morally advanced is a bad thing.
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Jul 20, 2014 18:13
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Old Boot posted:I remember feeling the same way re: disliking the Minbari in the first couple seasons, but once they started getting called out for being self-righteous to the point of no-poo poo delusional, I started to appreciate the earlier ~we are the best oh yes we are~ exposition a bit more. The Minbari have sold the idea that "Minbari do not lie" to all the races to the point where a Minbari witness sees Sheridan murder a "defenseless" Minbari and the crucial part of the plot is "Well this Minbari said it went this way so its 100% what really happened"
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Jul 20, 2014 18:16
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monster on a stick posted:JMS denied for years that Sakai was going to have Anna Sheridan's arc. It made little sense to me at the time since it was so obvious (just like Sinclair leaving the show for reasons unrelated to "oh his arc was done.") The arc document suggests that she was going to be "mind-raped" and completely forget her relationship with Sinclair, and the only way to restore her would involve "mind-raping" her again. Immediately subsequent to this development, Delenn "makes her move" and that's how she and Sinclair were supposed to end up together. I'm not sure what expression of disgust is appropriate here, but the summary doesn't exactly sell me on the romance of the thing.
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Jul 20, 2014 18:40
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Luigi Thirty posted:The best is all those times Delenn tells Lennier not to do something or that something would be dishonorable and he spends all day playing Minbari rules lawyer to figure out a way to do it anyway.
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Jul 20, 2014 20:48
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Omi-Polari posted:As much as I loathe the Minbari, Lennier is awesome. He headbutted a drone. 
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Jul 20, 2014 21:04
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Speaking of the Minbari being assholes, I can't remember, did any one ever find out it was Delenn that rage-convinced them to wipe out humanity before taking it back at the last second with the space equivalent of, "Uhh, my bad?"
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Jul 20, 2014 23:53
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Kibayasu posted:Speaking of the Minbari being assholes, I can't remember, did any one ever find out it was Delenn that rage-convinced them to wipe out humanity before taking it back at the last second with the space equivalent of, "Uhh, my bad?" Nope.
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Jul 20, 2014 23:57
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gingerberger posted:Ya I think they were pretty much what JMS wanted them to be: seem elegant and awesome but actually messed up like everyone else. I don't know why the fact that they aren't actually pure or morally advanced is a bad thing. It's a good thing as far as the storytelling goes, including the part where most of the people in B5 still buy into the false Minbari image. But as a viewer, it does mean that while I like the development, I also see the Minbari for what they are and don't think they're so great.
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Jul 21, 2014 00:17
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Holy poo poo Season 4. The Bester sitdown with Garibaldi after he completes his brainwashed "mission" is so hosed up! That's dark and twisted B5 at its best. And the Mars pod zooming off into the darkness while he's screaming as his mind comes undone. Oh my god. That has to be one of my favorite scenes. Ed: I don't think spoiler tags are necessary, but whatever. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 05:57 on Jul 21, 2014 |
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Jul 21, 2014 05:51
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ibntumart posted:It's a good thing as far as the storytelling goes, including the part where most of the people in B5 still buy into the false Minbari image. But as a viewer, it does mean that while I like the development, I also see the Minbari for what they are and don't think they're so great. Everyone buys into it and then greatest politician Londo's just like "  who told you Minbari don't lie?"
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Jul 21, 2014 08:46
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Luigi Thirty posted:Everyone buys into it and then greatest politician Londo's just like " To which the response is "Well, they di-".
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Jul 21, 2014 12:23
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Jedit posted:To which the response is "Well, they di-". But they don't lie, so they couldn't be lying about not lying, because they don't lie.
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Jul 21, 2014 17:51
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Narsham posted:Sinclair and Delenn are lovers, she gets pregnant in S4, the Minbari destroy B5 in S5 and Sinclair and Delenn flee with their son, hunted by Earth, by the Minbari warrior caste who are in charge, and by Londo who worked with the Shadowmen to wipe out large numbers of Vorlons. Wow, I never knew he published it. Did he publish this in a book or something? When did he do this? I'm surprised he did as well.
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Jul 22, 2014 00:32
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Gianthogweed posted:Wow, I never knew he published it. Did he publish this in a book or something? When did he do this? I'm surprised he did as well. It's in the limited edition script books that were released a while back. Here's some more info. http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=53739
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Jul 22, 2014 00:41
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Narsham posted:The arc document suggests that she was going to be "mind-raped" and completely forget her relationship with Sinclair, and the only way to restore her would involve "mind-raping" her again. Immediately subsequent to this development, Delenn "makes her move" and that's how she and Sinclair were supposed to end up together. I'm not sure what expression of disgust is appropriate here, but the summary doesn't exactly sell me on the romance of the thing. Not only that, if I remember correctly, she leaves him pretty soon after. Delenn and Sinclair have the kid, but it's definitely not a romantic relationship like we see in the show. Delenn becoming half human didn't always translate to her being relatable/emotional/romantic. The original plan was for her to remain more distant and Minbari-y. Oh, and by the way, the correct expression of disgust is absolutely  and mumbling something about 90s TV
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Jul 22, 2014 01:37
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Gianthogweed posted:Wow, I never knew he published it. Did he publish this in a book or something? When did he do this? I'm surprised he did as well. Yeah they say now they wish they hadn't promised it would be a limited edition and sadly for me I went through a broke period just after the first two books came out. And wasn't back on my feet again until well after the books had run. And it's like the only friggin book I know that you can't find pdfed or shared online.
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Jul 23, 2014 01:56
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JMS can't stop going back to the well ... from Comic Con yesterday:quote:JMS started the panel by reviewing his current projects, both 'out house' (not Studio JMS) and in-house and continued with news. We got an introduction to the Sense8 actors. JMS described it as a "...complex, amazing tapestry of stories."
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Jul 27, 2014 19:53
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Oh, I'm filled with optimism that he's decided to make a movie before having an idea for a movie.
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Jul 27, 2014 19:59
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