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LASER BEAM DREAM
Nov 3, 2005

Oh, what? So now I suppose you're just going to sit there and pout?

spootime posted:

Just bought it, thanks man.

If you guys have been reading on Kindle's, it's really hard to see the newspaper. Heres a full image of the one from Bands of Mourning.



Has Sanderson put these on his site? I'm currently going through the audio book and the narrationsnreally don't capture what he's trying to do.

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Fezz
Aug 31, 2001
You should feel ashamed.

Read the adventure story in the broadsheet and then look at the map of New Seran in the front of the book. One side is torn off.

Also was there an old Seran?

aparmenideanmonad
Jan 28, 2004
Balls to you and your way of mortal opinions - you don't exist anyway!

Fun Shoe

http://coppermind.net/wiki/Conventical_of_Seran

Zodack
Aug 3, 2014


Evil Fluffy posted:

Bands of Mourning finished. It was interesting though I think Shadows of Self might've been better overall. Character development for people like Steris is always nice though. Starting on Secret History now.

I really enjoyed Steris becoming more of a character, but I definitely liked Shadows of Self better.

Quorum
Sep 24, 2014

REMIND ME AGAIN HOW THE LITTLE HORSE-SHAPED ONES MOVE?


Seris is the best character, she's basically playing the Mistborn D&D campaign and realizing she built her character for completely the wrong sort of campaign. But really it's okay because she's such so anal retentive that she's prepared anyway.

Avalerion
Oct 19, 2012


Seriously, the last two books I kept hoping Wax won't screw this up, very happy with how things turned out between them.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013


So Brandon did a Q&A for Audible and said some spoilerish things about the cosmere (and Steelheart/Reckoners, but I don't care about those).

http://www.tor.com/2016/02/05/brand...chat-questions/


I found this part to be pretty interesting, even though it's basically no spoiler at all:

quote:

Question: Which of your characters required the most research beforehand in order to write?

Brandon Sanderson: Kaladin took some research into field medicine and depression. He probably took the most.

So as we all suspected, he's not an emo, he actually suffers from depression.

Reading some of these answers, it reminds me that I really, really need to reread Sixth of the Dusk after Bands of Mourning. But XCOM 2 just came out, so I don't have the spare time.

Subvisual Haze
Nov 22, 2003

The building was on fire and it wasn't my fault.

Quorum posted:

Seris is the best character, she's basically playing the Mistborn D&D campaign and realizing she built her character for completely the wrong sort of campaign. But really it's okay because she's such so anal retentive that she's prepared anyway.

She is great, but I feel like she's made Marasi feel more bland in comparison.

The Gardenator
May 4, 2007


Yams Fan

Seems that tor will not be releasing additional preview chapters for Calamity. I was hoping this past Monday would have had more chapters with knees sparking firefight.
If you don't like the YA Reckoners trilogy, just try to think of it as Sanderson practicing for the dystopian Mistborn trilogy 3.

Tunicate
May 15, 2012



Is it just me, or does Harmony seem like a real dick in the last couple of books?

socialsecurity
Aug 30, 2003

The Heroic ideal

Tunicate posted:

Is it just me, or does Harmony seem like a real dick in the last couple of books?

I think it's just a logical extension of "this is all part of God's plan" things you hear Christians say, except it actually is and you've got to break a few eggs to save the world.

Evil Fluffy
Jul 13, 2009

USPOL May

Tunicate posted:

Is it just me, or does Harmony seem like a real dick in the last couple of books?

I think it's laid out pretty well when at the end of Bands of Mourning you have Harmony telling Wax that he has bigger things to deal with and puts some faith in people to see things through. Couple that with Shadows of Self where you have the explanation that he did too much to help people, like making the Basin a hyper fertile farmland, and he needs to strike a balance as per his role as Harmony. That means some people are going to have a bad day and others are going to go through hell (Wax) because they're needed as pieces in the cosmic chess match.

Decius
Oct 14, 2005



Dick & Plans: Also, he is a combination of Ruin and Preservation, and Ruin made a pretty good case in the Secret History why Preservation alone, while seen as "good guy", would be no better than what Ruin had in mind in the end too. Harmony makes a similar, nuanced argument for balance too, even if it means some people get dealt a poo poo hand. But you can't put everything right by god's fiat, the result would be stasis.

Avalerion
Oct 19, 2012


God talk: I'm mostly curious about the people in the south, they seem to have gotten the shaft from Harmony, and seems like if Kelsier (?) didn't show up after Sazed recreated the world they would have all frozen to death.

And on an unrelated note I really want to know what's going on with koloss in this time period.

mewse
May 2, 2006



Avalerion posted:

And on an unrelated note I really want to know what's going on with koloss in this time period.

Yeah there are these references to "full blooded koloss" in the W&W era but no clarification if they're the mindless monsters from the Final Empire.

Tunicate
May 15, 2012



Decius posted:

Dick & Plans: Also, he is a combination of Ruin and Preservation, and Ruin made a pretty good case in the Secret History why Preservation alone, while seen as "good guy", would be no better than what Ruin had in mind in the end too. Harmony makes a similar, nuanced argument for balance too, even if it means some people get dealt a poo poo hand. But you can't put everything right by god's fiat, the result would be stasis.

I'm thinking more how he treats the kandra. If they ever violate their Contract he considers it totally acceptable to mindrape them into submission. And he just mentions that offhand. What the hell, no wonder the kandra developed a 'suicide for real' technique under Harmony when they didn't bother trying under Ruin.

Rygar201
Jan 25, 2011

USPOL May

mewse posted:

Yeah there are these references to "full blooded koloss" in the W&W era but no clarification if they're the mindless monsters from the Final Empire.

Koloss are an actual race now. They have two life stages, Koloss Blooded and Koloss. At a certain age their young compete in deadly trials with one another to earn their spikes and become Koloss. Some times they offer exceptional humans this too. IIRC Kolossblooded can be metal born but the process of becoming Koloss removes Allomantic and Ferruchemical power. Koloss can reproduce and these children are Koloss blooded. Koloss blooded can interbreed with humans. Spikes are mega important because Harmony doesn't provide them with new ones if they lose any. They've destroyed whole roughs towns to retrieve their dead before.


All per the RPG and those Mostly Cannon. The Koloss after ruin are pretty loving neat.

Tunicate
May 15, 2012



Rygar201 posted:

Koloss are an actual race now. They have two life stages, Koloss Blooded and Koloss. At a certain age their young compete in deadly trials with one another to earn their spikes and become Koloss. Some times they offer exceptional humans this too. IIRC Kolossblooded can be metal born but the process of becoming Koloss removes Allomantic and Ferruchemical power. Koloss can reproduce and these children are Koloss blooded. Koloss blooded can interbreed with humans. Spikes are mega important because Harmony doesn't provide them with new ones if they lose any. They've destroyed whole roughs towns to retrieve their dead before.


All per the RPG and those Mostly Cannon. The Koloss after ruin are pretty loving neat.

In canon koloss keep any powers they had before transformation. Probably changed in the rpg because of players trying to minmax?

I saw an AMA question about koloss with atium feruchemy, which brandon was coy about answering. After all, a koloss gets bigger and stronger as they get older, so if one started storing in an atiummind...

Decius
Oct 14, 2005



Tunicate posted:

I'm thinking more how he treats the kandra. If they ever violate their Contract he considers it totally acceptable to mindrape them into submission. And he just mentions that offhand. What the hell, no wonder the kandra developed a 'suicide for real' technique under Harmony when they didn't bother trying under Ruin.

Kandra: As far as I understood the stuff in the last book they never had much freedom under Ruin, not having the chance to develop such a technique in the first place. Only with Harmony giving them more freedom in their every day life (even if he still controls them ultimately) they could develop further.

broken clock opsec
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?



College Slice

They were not controlled by Ruin--they developed a suicide maneuver (not a full death, mind) specifically to avoid that.

Tunicate
May 15, 2012



broken clock opsec posted:

They were not controlled by Ruin--they developed a suicide maneuver (not a full death, mind) specifically to avoid that.

Yeah, While Ruin was still stuck in the well, he couldn't do anything to the kandra, and didn't care about them.

Even after being released, Ruin still didn't give a poo poo about the kandra, since they weren't very kill-inclined, so he mostly ignored them until the end of HoA. They decided that pulling their spikes out would be good enough to deal with Ruin, and largely succeeded.

But under Harmony, suddenly pulling their own spikes out isn't considered a sufficient countermeasure anymore, and they go through a ton of research to figure out an even-more-fatal suicide switch. I think that says a lot about how much they trust Harmony.

In Shadows of Self, Harmony says
" I can directly control a being who has pierced herself with too much Hemalurgy. In this case I would act, for Bleeder has disobeyed her Contract with me and opened herself up for my intervention."
Which... well, if 'obey my rules or I will literally take direct control of your body' doesn't sound sinister, I don't know what does. Don't ever break a contract with harmony, or else he'll think its fine to turn you into his puppet.

Oh, and while Harmony will stop short of assuming direct control, if you don't want to dance to his tune he'll still gently caress with your emotions, and push very hard until you make the decision he wants you to make.

“Speak to Harmony and find out something for me. Did Bleeder first leave because Harmony tried to take control of her at some point? Did that set her off?”
A moment of silence. “Yes,” TenSoon replied. “Harmony says He didn’t try to control her directly, but He did push her very hard to do something she didn’t want to do.”

Honestly I'm not sure Paalm was really ever 'insane', being firmly under the thumb of a guy who can control your body whenever he pleases, who uses that power imbalance to make you hurt your loved ones... I'd say that'd drive a lot of people to try to escape control and take their boss down.

OAquinas
Jan 27, 2008
Ye Olde Newb

Tunicate posted:



Honestly I'm not sure Paalm was really ever 'insane', being firmly under the thumb of a guy who can control your body whenever he pleases, who uses that power imbalance to make you hurt your loved ones... I'd say that'd drive a lot of people to try to escape control and take their boss down.


No, it's pretty clear that Paalm was mentally fraying pretty badly by the end. She went into it for good reason, but being down a spike definitely has Bad ramifications for Kandra health. She was pointed in a specific direction, but she was still quite unbalanced and mad.
Compounding this, we don't know if she was taking marching orders (consciously or not) from another Shard. So on one side she had god yelling in her ear, and on the other the devil (or really just another god) urging her on to do something else.

The suicide maneuver was probably developed as a counter to immortality ennui as much as it was against Harmonic tyranny. With the Big Bad absorbed and no longer acting malevolently and their secret mission accomplished, they had to consider the long term ramifications of their lives.

Tunicate
May 15, 2012



OAquinas posted:

No, it's pretty clear that Paalm was mentally fraying pretty badly by the end. She went into it for good reason, but being down a spike definitely has Bad ramifications for Kandra health. She was pointed in a specific direction, but she was still quite unbalanced and mad.
Compounding this, we don't know if she was taking marching orders (consciously or not) from another Shard. So on one side she had god yelling in her ear, and on the other the devil (or really just another god) urging her on to do something else.

The suicide maneuver was probably developed as a counter to immortality ennui as much as it was against Harmonic tyranny. With the Big Bad absorbed and no longer acting malevolently and their secret mission accomplished, they had to consider the long term ramifications of their lives.


Wax says that he thinks her motivations are insane, but her methods definitely are not.

Given that she deliberately decided to slip Harmony's leash before she pulled out a spike, it doesn't seem like her motives changed appreciably. If she was insane, she was insane with two spikes as well.

And once she has two spikes again at the end (which would mean her final words are guaranteed to be 'sane'), she still really loving hates Harmony.

As for the suicide technique
" near the end of the World of Ash, Ruin tried to take over the kandra. Control them directly. Well, TenSoon and those in charge, they were really terrified by that. So they planned, and we all talked. And about a century after the Catacendre, we figured out a way to stop our own lives. Takes a little concentration, but sets the body into a spiral where we just … end.”

Definitely seems like the kandra are really loving worried about the possibility of harmony taking control of them.

Wolpertinger
Feb 16, 2011


The whole shtick with harmony taking over a Kandra, though, is that she broke this Contract. Presumably, she or the kandra have some sort of bargain with Harmony. Harmony isn't allowed to act willy nilly - he's restricted in how he can act. The way he phrased it, he's not even allowed by his own nature to start puppeting Kandra who aren't oathbreakers. Kandra are extremely dangerous relics of Hemalurgy, who can use Hemalurgy themselves, and are some of the only people in the world capable of doing so. Leaving shapeshifters with hemalurgy running around with no rules preventing them from killing who they want or working against him would be a disastrous idea. It's not like anyone else but Harmony could stop a Kandra like Paalm from doing what they wanted since they can take any shape and steal any power with Hemalurgy now that there are no more Mistborn. Harmony and his Contract are presumably the only thing preventing them from abusing their power.

I mean sure, mind control is an unfortunate tool to do this with but he's something of a crippled god - he can only act in so many ways within the rules of his Shard, and one of the only ways that he could reach out and stop this person from murdering people and spreading chaos is using Ruin's influence over hemalurgy. Plus, he's acting in self defense - the ultimate end goal of this person is his own destruction or neutering and he's well aware of how vulnerable that could leave his planet to the influence of less pleasant shards.

I'm thinking you're extrapolating a bit too much malevolence from his desperate attempt to stop a lunatic from killing people - by his very nature he wants to stay as hands off as possible and only act prevent widespread chaos or stagnation.

Wolpertinger fucked around with this message at Feb 11, 2016 around 12:24

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013


Wolpertinger posted:

I'm thinking you're extrapolating a bit too much malevolence from his desperate attempt to stop a lunatic from killing people - by his very nature he wants to stay as hands off as possible and only act prevent widespread chaos or stagnation. [/spoiler]

This so much! Yes, the Kandra figured out a way to kill themselves. BECAUSE RUIN TOOK CONTROL OF THEM TO BRING ABOUT THE APOCALYPSE! How much more motivation do you need??

The Kandra we see in the story, with the exceptions of Paalm and the evil Kandra at the end of BoM, speak pretty well of Harmony. At no point do I get the impression that they fear him, or disagree with what he does.

That said, Harmony is deeply flawed. Combining both shards made him probably the theoretically most powerful entity in the Cosmere, but that doesn't help when his very nature makes it difficult for him to act at all. He's also not some all-knowing god, so he can miscalculate the effects of his actions and can be blind to/overlook threats to him and the people he wants to protect. But these things still don't mean that he's evil.

Rygar201
Jan 25, 2011

USPOL May

It's interesting/amusing that Sazed is is much stronger than Rayse, yet much less able to effect any change.

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

Rygar201 posted:

It's interesting/amusing that Sazed is is much stronger than Rayse, yet much less able to effect any change.

That's a pretty common archetype - the more power you have, the less you're actually able to exercise it. Butcher does that in the Dresden Files too.

Rygar201
Jan 25, 2011

USPOL May

computer parts posted:

That's a pretty common archetype - the more power you have, the less you're actually able to exercise it. Butcher does that in the Dresden Files too.

Yeah I really like it. Expecially how they both tie Power to a Purpose. The greater the power, the more narrow the purpose (generally).

mossyfisk
Nov 8, 2010


I got the impression that the actual mechanics behind Kandra have changed as well. We haven't seen any mention of the Gifts that used to come with their sapience before Sazed shook things up.

Evil Fluffy
Jul 13, 2009

USPOL May

With the kandra it seems like people are glossing over the end of BoM, specifically that the other god, Trell, has their own kandra (who work with the Set). Paalm had a spike of unknown metal, because while she may have been one of Harmony's kandra at some point she likely goes over to Trell. Whether that's because of her rebellion from Harmony or what caused said rebellion IDK, but either way it seems almost impossible that Paalm didn't encounter Trell in some way and end up in her twisted state due to them. Trell likely gave her a (false) freedom that Harmony didn't.

Either way, we're likely going to see some kandra vs kandra fighting in the final book because if Trell has his own kandra who he uses to work with the Set there's no way Sanderson would reveal that without planning to move them in to play against Wax and co, meaning MeLaan at the very least is going to face them and she'd not be under the same moral apprehension that TenSoon was in Mistborn since Trell's kandra would probably be the closest thing to a natural enemy.

Tunicate
May 15, 2012



Torrannor posted:

This so much! Yes, the Kandra figured out a way to kill themselves. BECAUSE RUIN TOOK CONTROL OF THEM TO BRING ABOUT THE APOCALYPSE! How much more motivation do you need??

They already had a countermeasure in place against Ruin, which worked and saved the world.

Ruin proper isn't around anymore. Why do they need to develop a new, even more effective suicide technique, if Harmony is such a good and trustworthy guy?


Also, kandra in general don't know poo poo about how to use hemalurgy. The Lord Ruler was the only one who knew how to make the spikes - he just handed the spikes over whenever the kandra were producing a new generation. Everyone, including Harmony, are like 'how the hell does paalm have kanda hemalurgy to gain new powers'.




As for the others I doubt they're actual kandra, since they have glowing red eyes and kandra don't get those. I'm thinking more likely they're some possessing evil spren dealies

Tunicate fucked around with this message at Feb 11, 2016 around 17:00

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013


Tunicate posted:

They already had a countermeasure in place against Ruin, which worked and saved the world.

It did not work at all! The only reason the Kandra could actually pull their spikes was because Ruin was distracted. Reread The Hero of Ages to see what I mean. Ruin could have prevented every single Kandra from pulling their spikes, and they would have lived as eternal slaves in their own bodies. That's the reason they devised the new method that makes it possible to kill themselves even if their controlling deity gives 100% to prevent them from committing suicide.

Tunicate
May 15, 2012



Torrannor posted:

It did not work at all! The only reason the Kandra could actually pull their spikes was because Ruin was distracted. Reread The Hero of Ages to see what I mean. Ruin could have prevented every single Kandra from pulling their spikes, and they would have lived as eternal slaves in their own bodies. That's the reason they devised the new method that makes it possible to kill themselves even if their controlling deity gives 100% to prevent them from committing suicide.

Ruin was fully focused on the kandra. He had just found out they had the remaining atium, and immediately did everything he could to take control.

If he'd managed to fully control them, he'd have gotten the atium and won flat out, and he was well aware of that. That didn't happen, because the kandra successfully reverted to mistwraithhood.

Wolpertinger
Feb 16, 2011


Tunicate posted:

Ruin was fully focused on the kandra. He had just found out they had the remaining atium, and immediately did everything he could to take control.

If he'd managed to fully control them, he'd have gotten the atium and won flat out, and he was well aware of that. That didn't happen, because the kandra successfully reverted to mistwraithhood.


For all we know it was just a close thing. Perhaps they just made this method as just a sort of 'never again' sitution instead of because of Harmony in particular - if Ruin and Preservation could die and be absorbed, what's stopping from Harmony from dying and something worse than Ruin moving in? What if Harmony, if benevolent now, ends up becoming unbalanced? What if somebody other than Harmony learns how to control them? There's a lot of reasons without prescribing malevolence to Harmony. Honestly, Harmony's probably one of the safest Shards because he's trapped by his two parts into being passive - I wouldn't be surprised if they were forced to do something similar to get rid of the other destructive, malevolent, or manipulative shards - though I'm not sure what would balance out Odium

Rygar201
Jan 25, 2011

USPOL May

The Revolution won't rest until all Shards are splintered! Suffer neither Gods nor Kings!

So, uh, what should and shouldn't he spoiled? We seem to be erring on the side of caution since Secret History.

RC Cola
Aug 1, 2011


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Rygar201 posted:

The Revolution won't rest until all Shards are splintered! Suffer neither Gods nor Kings!

So, uh, what should and shouldn't he spoiled? We seem to be erring on the side of caution since Secret History.

I propose a spoiler thread and a spoiler free thread.

Evil Fluffy
Jul 13, 2009

USPOL May

What do you consider a spoiler? Why would it need its own thread when this thread isn't that heavily active to begin with?

Wolpertinger posted:

though I'm not sure what would balance out Odium

My guess is if not Harmony then a shard such as Compassion would do so, though by all accounts Honor was that balancing factor and Odium destroyed him just as Ruin killed Preservation but failed to shatter Preservation.

Wolpertinger
Feb 16, 2011


Evil Fluffy posted:

What do you consider a spoiler? Why would it need its own thread when this thread isn't that heavily active to begin with?


My guess is if not Harmony then a shard such as Compassion would do so, though by all accounts Honor was that balancing factor and Odium destroyed him just as Ruin killed Preservation but failed to shatter Preservation.

yeah, but having two separate shards balancing each other out seems to always end badly as they tend to fight and squabble and kill each other - I was more thinking which shards you'd combine to make less terrible gods. If you kill them, they splinter into a million little malevolent spirits, if you take their shard by itself you become the next Odium, so, yeah. As far as combinations go, honor and odium would make some sort of strange, malevolent god that has a strict code of behavior but still hates you and wants you dead. Compassion or love or something would maybe create a god of passion or emotion which would probably be less awful. Autonomy and Odium would probably create a god of violent revolution or something, haha. I don't think Harmony could absorb Odium without going crazy since it would be so contradictory without some sort of balancing emotion.

I do really wonder what's going to happen once we start getting the bigger cosmere stuff and all these gods start fighting, it'll be fun.

Wolpertinger fucked around with this message at Feb 12, 2016 around 01:00

wellwhoopdedooo
Nov 23, 2007

Pound Trooper!

Wolpertinger posted:

yeah, but having two separate shards balancing each other out seems to always end badly as they tend to fight and squabble and kill each other - I was more thinking which shards you'd combine to make less terrible gods. If you kill them, they splinter into a million little malevolent spirits, if you take their shard by itself you become the next Odium, so, yeah. As far as combinations go, honor and odium would make some sort of strange, malevolent god that has a strict code of behavior but still hates you and wants you dead. Compassion or love or something would maybe create a god of passion or emotion which would probably be less awful. Autonomy and Odium would probably create a god of violent revolution or something, haha. I don't think Harmony could absorb Odium without going crazy since it would be so contradictory without some sort of balancing emotion.

I do really wonder what's going to happen once we start getting the bigger cosmere stuff and all these gods start fighting, it'll be fun.


Compassion and Odium seems like it'd make something like the Inchori from Prince of Nothing.

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RC Cola
Aug 1, 2011


HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY FUCK THE WILD HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY HOCKEY


Evil Fluffy posted:

What do you consider a spoiler? Why would it need its own thread when this thread isn't that heavily active to begin with?


My guess is if not Harmony then a shard such as Compassion would do so, though by all accounts Honor was that balancing factor and Odium destroyed him just as Ruin killed Preservation but failed to shatter Preservation.

I mean a Sanderson spoiler free thread and a spoiler thread. There is a lot of content out now and he's going to keep churning out 4+ books a year. It gets pretty active around a new book

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