|
BananaNutkins posted:You can stop after book 1. I half wish I had.
|
#
¿
Feb 27, 2014 04:11
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 26, 2024 15:04 |
|
|
enigma74 posted:Here's a late response, but that's amazing! I thought the numbers were just intentional gibberish made to look like a real message, and not actually a crackable code. drat those Contrarianassholes and their first ideal of 'I will be an enormous dick to everyone I meet.'
|
|
#
¿
Mar 15, 2014 02:18
|
|
|
Khizan posted:I still can't see "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right" as the Third Ideal. "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves" as the Second, and another "I will protect" as the Third Ideal? Bleh. Unless we've got Word of Author that it's the Third Ideal, I remain convinced that it's a restating of the Second Ideal and, essentially, just a retaking of the oath he broke when he agreed to let them kill the King. I am not going to theorize on exactly what role that oath played or which number oath it was, but I will say that it would be dumb as hell to have 'I will protect everyone who can't protect themselves' and 'I will protect <subclass>' as separate oaths, so I hope it's just a restatement.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 15, 2014 02:36
|
|
|
Jorenko posted:It was explicitly stated that all orders share the first ideal, then do their own thing for the rest. Some orders have more ideals of their own that are unique, and some (like the Lightweavers, as Pattern told Shallan) do something completely different (tell deep personal truths, in this case). For my part I think Kaladin really did say the third. There's no way he'd get such a huge powerup from just restating the second. I think that each order's ideals will be specialized, so it makes sense for the Windrunners' to focus on protection as a theme. Except it's still an incredibly dumb delineation. If those are separate oaths, then the WR ideals have a loophole that somehow allow Kaladin to not worry about protecting people he doesn't hate who can protect themselves, which would be a pretty stupid thing (given he has to protect people he hates even when they can protect themselves).
|
|
#
¿
Mar 15, 2014 16:28
|
|
|
Jorenko posted:There are more oaths left. Also, I don't think the spren are going to let you wiggle through a loophole that defies the spirit of the law. Oh are there? I thought it was just the three. Well, anyway, re: the spren allowing or not allowing, that would still be a really lazy and cheap mechanism to essentially correct an issue that shouldn't have come up in the first place (oaths with senseless loopholes).
|
|
#
¿
Mar 15, 2014 16:39
|
|
|
Walh Hara posted:The intention behind the words seems to me to be much more important than the words themselves. To start with, I really doubt you have to speak Alethi to be a king radiant, so presumably anyone can speak the words in their own language as long that the intention behind them is correct. I don't really see what that had to do with anything?
|
|
#
¿
Mar 15, 2014 17:20
|
|
|
api call girl posted:gently caress that I want Eshonai to shake off the voidbinding, kill her sister, and become a new Radiant. I wouldn't worry too much. All special powers she may have been granted in her new form aside, she was decked out in shardplate when she fell. She might land face first and still survive.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 15, 2014 18:22
|
|
|
Xachariah posted:I don't see why some people are so put out by one of the ideals of one of the orders. It may not even be the final ideal of that specific order. Hey man this is important stuff how can we sleep at night while the ideals of fictional characters don't make perfect sense???
|
|
#
¿
Mar 15, 2014 18:42
|
|
|
Xachariah posted:Lot's of drugs. That's what got me into this series in the first place 
|
|
#
¿
Mar 15, 2014 19:08
|
|
|
treeboy posted:Yeah really not getting the people who are grumpy about the (near end of book)third oath. I feel the book does an excellent job of demonstrating a perfect example of a situation where such an oath would be important. Elhokar is a king, has his own shardblade, but is completely helpless in the situation and kaladin doesn't really care for him at all. The oath is very fitting for the "honor bound" Windrunners who can't simply get by with what's practical or logical they have to do what's *right* that means protecting the helpless,innocent, and jerks If Elhokar was defenseless, the second ideal should have applied, regardless of how he feels about him. The oath he ends up speaking actually doesn't have anything to do with ability to defend oneself. What makes it strange is specifically that it applies to people he hates, and only if it's right. Soo... what about people he doesn't hate? Isn't it a little odd that he spoke oaths that explicitly denote that he would protect people he hates on a wider spectrum (by eschewing reliance on their ability to defend themselves) than people he doesn't .
|
|
#
¿
Mar 16, 2014 09:24
|
|
|
mossyfisk posted:Windrunners still have to choose the causes for which they'll fight. Like the conversation he has with Syl about Parshendi; he fights them instead of protecting, because he wants to protect his allies instead. You could spin killing Elhokar as protecting the people, but he knows that for him it would be a choice made purely because of his personal feelings towards Elhokar. The third ideal is to 'journey before destination' as the second is to 'strength before weakness'. I really don't think this actually addresses the point I'm making. SilverWingedSeraph posted:The whole point of it was that if someone needs his protection, and protecting them is the right thing to do, then he will protect them even if he hates them. It adds a further restriction to the Second Ideal, or rather clarifies that hating someone is not reason enough to avoid doing the right thing. I feel it stands pretty well as the Third Ideal. It makes sense to me that the Third Ideal would expand upon the Second and clarify it. Well, the thing is, if someone actually 'needs his protection,' as you say, then him protecting them should fall under the second ideal, which covers people you may hate or not. So in swearing that second oath, he has already sworn to protect people he hates if 'they need his protection' (ie: they can't protect themselves). Again, making this latest oath seem redundant and more of a restatement than anything new or anything clarifying. It's not unlike saying 'I will pick all of the apples,' and then following it up with, 'I will pick all of the green apples, as long as they are ripe.' The second statement is logically encompassed already by the first. So I'm going to stick with 'if that was the third ideal, and not a restatement of the second, then it's a pretty dumb way to do it,' because it doesn't introduce anything new - it just clarifies for Kaladin that the oath he previously took actually requires of him. Habibi fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Mar 16, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Mar 16, 2014 15:34
|
|
|
senae posted:Are we done with spoiler tags now? I actually thought I had put spoiler tags in. My bad. Added now. I don't see how my analogy falls apart when the analogy you suggest in its stead makes the exact same argument. The second part is implicit in the first part. At best it's a clarification, which seems (to me) like an odd/unnecessary choice for a separate oath.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 16, 2014 19:57
|
|
|
Atlas Hugged posted:Enjoyed it well enough, but I really do not enjoy Sanderson dialog at all. I don't feel like he really gets people and how people interact. Sanderson is not great at dialog for the same reason he is pretty good at fights - it's all god drat anime. It hit me a while ago when rereading Towers (or whichever the penultimate one was) in prep for AMoL. Rand is like the animeist character ever when Sanderson is writing him.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 16, 2014 20:00
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Which is part of why he was such a good choice for WoT -- WoT is basically a western anime, right down to ten year's worth of plot dilation and three love interests for the main character conveniently color-coded by their hair. I always figured that last part was just because Rand was a big dumb idiot and needed something to tell them all apart.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 17, 2014 00:10
|
|
|
treeboy posted:There were no eyeroll moments for me (but then again I didn't really roll my eyes at Shallan in WoK either) and I'm not entirely sure what people mean by "anime" dialogue. Awkward, overwrought, dramaticized, and completely unlike how people actually talk. DBZ is actually a fair comparison - just not the monologues, but the actual conversation. DarkHorse posted:The only anime thing that really bugged me was (not a big one) Kaladin landing with puffs of ice that formed glyphs - it was just so weird to conveniently make those shapes. Habibi fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Mar 17, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Mar 17, 2014 18:33
|
|
|
treeboy posted:You're kidding right? You're comparing legitimately entertaining books to cartoons where half the cast spends most episodes yelling numbers and screaming until veins pop all across their bodies. In fact if I were to make any critique of the dialogue its that Sanderson made it a little *too* contemporary in its form. I am neither kidding nor doing what you're saying. But I am comparing the dialogue in these books to this particular anime (and anime in general), with the yelling and screaming and veins being of course completely irrelevant to this conversation. But, hey, don't get me wrong - I'm glad you enjoy it! e: and it has nothing to do with being too contemporary or otherwise, and stuff like the Lift chapter was fine. It's not a stylistic issue. It's a technical issue. e2: vvv I just started Warbreaker, and if that's the case that's pretty cool Habibi fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Mar 17, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Mar 17, 2014 22:01
|
|
|
treeboy posted:It's not an issue of liking/disliking. quote:I just have literally no conceptual understanding of what you're talking about. You're using words I understand, but arranging them in configurations which make no sense to me. quote:Concrete examples of dialogue you find to be Anime-esque or "Awkward, overwrought, dramaticized, and completely unlike how people actually talk" might help if you care to provide some. I asked a few friends at my studio quote:But your critique seems to revolve around your willing suspension of disbelief being broken Given that I have said nor claimed nothing about how the animeish dialogue affects my suspension of disbelief, I think this is probably a good place to stop.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 18, 2014 00:07
|
|
|
nucleicmaxid posted:You do this in the Malazan thread too. You pick at something, get called out, then fail to defend yourself while trying to look like the calm guy who isn't mad. It's kind of annoying. In the present case, I guess I'm sorry that it doesn't matter enough to me whether you or other posters agree with my opinion on this to get 'mad' about it on the internet or spend time looking for particularly animeish exchanges to sate you. It's my opinion on a particular quality of Sanderson's writing (ie, not even a question of interpreting plot points and thus doesn't affect the story), and if quote:I don't find anything 'anime' about the conversations the characters have Habibi fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Mar 18, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Mar 18, 2014 03:55
|
|
|
Ragnar34 posted:Does anyone else think Lift is basically Sette Frummagem from Unsounded. Lift is totally Gavroche from Les Mis. With superpowers.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 18, 2014 06:58
|
|
|
treeboy posted:I'm an artist I get influences and inspirations. When it comes to the action set pieces I think comparing them to cartoons is pretty spot on (also :kickinrad:) I just think in this particular instance the criticism of comparing the way Sanderson writes dialogue as being "anime" is completely baseless (unless there's some japanese cartoons out there with *way* better writing than I am aware of. In my experience they typically stare at each other awkwardly while saying 2-3 words at a time) It's like 5-6 words but otherwise yup. Sometimes even as many as 9! Habibi fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Mar 19, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Mar 19, 2014 15:46
|
|
|
Atlas Hugged posted:I'll admit that I don't really have any basis to call Sanderson's dialog "anime". Other people were making the connection and I ran with it. In general, I think dialog is probably Sanderson's biggest weakness (second being sometimes using, IMO, pretty convoluted and contrived plot points, most guiltily to achieve the interconnectedness of story elements he is known for/ likes to have). Shallan...oh god. Habibi fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Mar 19, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Mar 19, 2014 16:28
|
|
|
Shakugan posted:Shallan is too similar to Vivenna, Siri, Sarene I think this extends beyond women. All of Kelsier, Raoden, and Kaladin (when he's not being clinically depressed and mopey) shared remarkably similar voices and personality traits, to me. e: and, I mean, in any work of fiction that features so many characters and perspectives, it's no surprise to find some that sound and act alike. But as those are all central figures in their respective novels, it tends to stand out more. Habibi fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Mar 19, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Mar 19, 2014 18:46
|
|
|
syphon posted:Really? Kelsier and Raoden (I couldn't remember who he was at first) sounded very similar to me, but Kaladin doesn't sound anything like them, mopey or not! He's much more... serious I guess. He is a more serious character, though, to be fair, we mostly see him in particularly dire situations (as a slave, as a bridgeman, as a distrustful bodyguard surrounded by people he doesnt like). However, in WoK, when he manages to climb out of his melancholia, his Optimist's Guide to Bridgemen Rehabilitation was right out of the Raoden/Kelsier playbook.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 19, 2014 20:42
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:Well, I just finished it, and my main question: The ever increasing number of metals in Mistborn (aren't we technically past 16 due to alloy) are easily the worst part of that series for me. :/ So I guess what I am saying is I hope not. One of Sanderson's biggest strengths are these well defined magic systems, and stuff like what he did in Alloy of Law just seemed like a lazy way to get backpedal around established rules.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 20, 2014 01:02
|
|
|
NinjaDebugger posted:There's been a complete list of metals for quite some time. There are exactly sixteen basic metals. The count was thrown off because they didn't realize that Atium and Lerasium were not actually metals. Sure, if by 'quite some time' you mean 'toward the very end of the original trilogy.' Otherwise, the charts for the books went 8, 12, 14, and then 16 (this time excluding gods). And the books themselves were pretty adamant about it at each state right up until a new metal(s) needed to be introduced for plot reasons. First it was eight. Then oh and these two special ones. Then another, and another. And then boom, six more out of nowhere. And all the while we had these charts and ars arcanums and everything! In retrospect, yes, there were always sixteen metals. But as you're going through the books, it seemed like a constant tacking-on. It's not unlike if it turns out in the next Stormlight novel that actually there are sixteen surges, and each Radiant gets four (four being a newly significant number as it's the square root of 16), and in retrospect, after the series is concluded, we will say 'oh but there were always 16 surges and 4 per Radiant, it was just unknown at the time for <reasons>!' But at the time, what you really have are charts and ars arcanum-y annotations suggesting a totally different reality. And that's why it struck me as sort of lazy back pedaling. I guess the way it appeared to me at the time was that when what seems to be a well-defined magic system keeps evolving with every book, it's no longer well-defined. With all that said, I may be misremembering the stuff with alloys from AoL. I'll have to double check.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 20, 2014 02:59
|
|
|
Tunicate posted:I dunno man, when the chart looks like this Hrm, you know what, I read the books on my Kindle and I didn't even see those little picture glyph things originally - just the charts of known metals. With that (which granted is from the second book), I could understand how you'd see the eventuality building.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 20, 2014 04:18
|
|
|
treeboy posted:the thing i find most interesting is that what feels very planned and well executed to me, appears to others to be tacked on and deus ex machina. Sandersons systems are anything but cobbled together as he writes. He doesn't always give you everything up front, but it's always well planned in advance. He's got a private wiki that only he and his head pr guy can access and he estimated it's got something like an additional 300,000 words per book of background info, world building, and outlines that barely make it into the book. Just because something is planned / designed in detail well ahead of time doesn't mean it will seem that way in reading. I thought a lot of the plot connections in the second and third Mistborn books (eg: the resolution of the Kandra bargain) seemed forced and gave off a vibe of 'ooh I desperately need to tie these two elements together' (it may be because those particular elements seemed to just happen, rather than flowing naturally with/from the narrative), but I am guessing that that was not the manner in which they were originally written into the story. e: I actually enjoy not being given a lot of stuff up front (I mean, Steven Erikson is my favorite fantasy author, so...), but, I don't know, something about how the metal thing was handled (past the first book) just seemed off. Habibi fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Mar 20, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Mar 20, 2014 04:25
|
|
|
Xachariah posted:The Ars Arcanum is based on incomplete knowledge itself (it's written by someone in-universe, chief suspect Hoid). So if you expected them to have defined the complete magic system for you in the Ars Arcanum as a reference then I can see why you'd be confused. quote:It's very clear at this point that Sanderson likes to keep a part of his magic system secret for the big reveals. quote:On Roshar it appears that Surgebinding is of Honor, if it's similar to Mistborn then there's potentially another set of powers given by Cultivation (Cultibinding?) and Odium (Voidbinding?) and probably powers given by the interaction between them, Surgecultibinding, Surgevoidbinding, Voidcultibinding (after all, that's the explanation for Feruchemy). quote:each probably using Stormlight for investiture much like metals were used on Scandrial for the 3x16 metal magics. quote:If this is potentially accurate there could be as many as 6x16 = 96 types of power or variations of power in the Roshar system. Habibi fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Mar 20, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Mar 20, 2014 05:22
|
|
|
Xachariah posted:I DIDN'T DREAM BIG ENOUGH. Ah, yes, the 16th ideal.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 20, 2014 05:44
|
|
|
Lobsterpillar posted:Re: 2. The fact that Cultivation doesn't appear to be doing an anything certainly is telling. Honor is certainly putting on a show of force - The knights radiant, the Heralds, etc. Cultivation might just be of a pacifist nature, after all gardeners are not known for getting involved in wars. Then again, if Cultivation is broken that also explains the inaction quote:Re: 3. I always thought the fact that the highstorms brought crem/nutrients implied that they are at least partially of Cultivation. Then again, Dalinars visions from Honor also came via Highstorm, as does stormlight, so my personal understanding was that highstorms are something like the Mists on Scadrial - they are part of the body of Honor and Cultivation (and Odium might even be mixed in there too). ExCruceLeo posted:Regarding what Shardblades are: Are they spren trapped against their will (or formed into a weapon and abandoned by a radiant) and that's why they scream?
|
|
#
¿
Mar 20, 2014 06:14
|
|
|
Tunicate posted:In terms of Intents, the other shard that most closely complements Cultivation is Ruin... not sure what to think about that. What do you mean?
|
|
#
¿
Mar 20, 2014 06:35
|
|
|
e: ^^^ you'd sure as hell feel the air, which if you're traveling several hundred miles an hour through might pose a small obstacle even if lashings affect your entire cellular structure simultaneously.Tunicate posted:Lashings seem to stick to the surfaces of objects first. IIRC only Zane was shown to be able to do this actually using allomancy (related to his spike?). Otherwise I think the obvious explanation would be using air resistance to change your orientation in flight by moving your body (think skydivers). This was part of what I thought Kelsier was talking about when remarking on how naturally Vin adapted to pushing and pulling herself arou Habibi fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Mar 20, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Mar 20, 2014 17:42
|
|
|
treeboy posted:Personally, given Lopen's POV at the end, I'm of the opinion that stormlight absorption can be learned. Seems like it would make more sense that that's an attribute of the whole squire/whatever thing and stems from his relationship with/loyalty to Kaladin.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 3, 2014 15:04
|
|
|
treeboy posted:I think it might be broader than that, though its hard to say since you could draw this relationship between a lot of characters quote:Dalinar for instance api call girl posted:If taken chronologically Kaladin had already sworn the day before, so it's still not a perfect line-up. Proximity might still be the better association there. And re: Elhokar, yes, but as far as we are aware Elhokar hasn't said any of his oaths yet, right?
|
|
#
¿
Apr 4, 2014 13:48
|
|
|
treeboy posted:Dalinar has huge loyalty amongst his men and has for a lot longer than Kaladin. treeboy posted:it's not rock solid 100%, but it's hardly out of the realm of possibility especially since we have no idea what the actual requirements are. Of course, nothing is out of the realm of possibility, but certain things are more likely than others based on what we've seen. And so far, Kaladin's checked a whole lot more of the 'Knight Radiant' checkboxes than Dalinar, while at the same time claiming the loyalty of more men than any other Radiant hopeful we've met. Habibi fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Apr 5, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Apr 4, 2014 22:29
|
|
|
Xachariah posted:Shallan? Yeah that's probably the closest comparable at the moment, but I still wouldn't equats her mercs/attendants with Kal's bridgemen just yet.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 5, 2014 02:34
|
|
|
treeboy posted:I did read your post quote:I simply disagree with your dismissal of my theory. quote:We know that different orders have different requirements. We know Kaladin has fulfilled all the wind runner requirements. We also know that Dalinar has been receiving visions from the spren/splinter of the Almighty himself for as long as Kaladin has been interacting directly with Syl, maybe longer. Because regardless of how long Dalinar had been receiving visions, he doesn't actually bond a Spren - which if you'll recall is sort of a prerequisite of becoming a KR - until the end of WoR. quote:Dalinar also commands the direct loyalty of tens of thousands of soldiers who don't simply follow him out of threats or lack of options but because he's a legitimately good leader. Kaladin might know all his men by their first names, but Dalinar kinda has him beat in the "whose army is bigger" competition quote:All I posited was the simple question of whether the "soldiers" referenced in WoR were *only* bridgemen or included some of Dalinar's regular soldiers as well. The answer apparently is "potentially" quote:Also stop picking posts apart piecemeal, it's obnoxious.  what?quote:And spoiler some of that stuff, the book hasn't been out that long Whoops, apologies. Spoilers added (it slips my mind when posting from my phone).
|
|
#
¿
Apr 5, 2014 17:48
|
|
|
e: ^^^ I can't recall, was it ever covered in WoR what words she spoke to Pattern when she first used him? It could make sense that the 'words' (as Syl always refers to them) differ for each type of spren. So maybe an Honorspren requires oaths, Shallans requires truths (or even lies?), others might require emotions or who knows what.nucleicmaxid posted:He means stop ripping posts apart and attacking out-of-context segments just to try and win some internet battle. It's a thing you do in the Malazan thread too and it is rather annoying and somewhat disingenuous. Habibi fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Apr 5, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Apr 5, 2014 23:28
|
|
|
Lobsterpillar posted:Essentially his third oath clarifies and removes a loophole that would allow him to act dishonorably. But how does that loophole work, exactly, and how is that clarification not implicit in the second ideal? I mean, logically speaking: The second ideal covers both those he likes and those he doesn't like as they can't protect themselves. So if a person is unable to protect themselves, then, allowing for some established interpretation of their relationship to the Radiant, he is obligated to protect them regardless of his personal feelings. This covers everyone who falls under the umbrella of the second ideal. Meaning the only category of people he might hate who are left out of that second ideal are those who CAN protect themselves. So if the clarification represents a wholly separate ideal, then, with the the caveat of "as long as it's right," what additional scope could it add except for 'people who hates who can protect themselves' (again, as long as it's "right" - whatever that might mean). Given this, doesn't it seem like an odd choice as a distinct ideal? And if it is, it opens up countless questions, like - "Why is he obligated to protect people he hates (as long as it's right) when they can protect themselves, but not people he likes? What about people he's ambivalent about?" - and so on. For these reasons, I think it makes more sense for those words to represent more of...an emphasis on an implied tenet of the second ideal, with Kaladin coming to the fuller understanding that it doesn't just cover those he respects / loves / doesn't find abhorrent, but - as long as it's the right thing to do - everyone who requires his protection (and thus recommitting himself to it and regaining his KR powers) rather than a wholly separate clarification that seems to affect an almost arbitrary demographic. I also think it further makes sense given the circumstances, which were Kaladin understanding that he had to protect Elhokar, who for a variety of reasons was not able to protect himself in that scenario, subjecting him by definition to the second ideal. I guess another way you could look at it is that it's the difference between Kaladin going, "Oh, I swore to protect everyone who couldn't protect themselves. Even people I might hate." vs him going, "I swore to protect everyone - and barring some ethical interpretations, I mean everyone - who couldn't protect themselves. Did I mention 'everyone'? And on top of that I swear to protect even those people I hate, who for some reason weren't counted when I said 'everyone' before.' Eh. Mind you, I'm open to the idea/possibility that it will end up being a separate ideal. I just don't think that would make as much sense. *shrug* treeboy posted:For instance it would've required him to protect Sadeas had he known before hand what was going to go down with Adolin e: Wolpertinger posted:This is probably obvious, but I'm betting a some of the Radiant orders did not in fact flat out tell their recruits what the specific oaths were, as it seems that getting hung up on the actual saying the words is probably the wrong idea, and it's supposed to be some sort of personal discovery culminating in the oath to actually become more strongly linked to whatever concept they're bound to. Habibi fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Apr 6, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Apr 6, 2014 05:18
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 26, 2024 15:04 |
|
|
Tunicate posted:Again, specific idea, not necessarily exact wording. I'm not sure if you're responding to me, but if so: yeah, I mean, I would infer that if it's the idea that's important, then it makes even more sense that the WoR words were less a new thing and more a realization about an established ideal, because the idea behind the words was that he had to protect Elhokar, who was the rightful king (even if a poor one), despite his own feelings for him, because he required his protection (ie: he could not protect himself), and thus he should have been protecting him by the idea behind the words of the second ideal, anyway. Habibi fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Apr 6, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Apr 6, 2014 05:26
|
|