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SuperDucky
May 13, 2007

You're my favorite deputy!


Sir Unimaginative posted:

I'm going to end up riding my 2500K into the ground, aren't I.

I mean, I thought that, then I got a big boy job, got bored and went to MicroCenter over lunch on a slow Friday and had one of our techs sleeve my psu cables and watercooling hoses and assembled it. x4 M.2 NVMe and USB 3.1 are nice, I guess?

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Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!

BIG HEADLINE posted:

X = Extreme Edition. I don't think they're getting rid of the K chips.
I guess an X is cooler than an E.

EdEddnEddy
Apr 5, 2012



Combat Pretzel posted:

I guess an X is cooler than an E.

Yea I know about the X in the chip, but this sounds almost like -X is the new gen for both the consumer (Z) and Enthusiast (X) chipsets.

Why in the hell would anyone buy an "Extreme Edition 4C CPU" in this day and age? Intel hasn't done that in years. It's been 6+ Cores since SB-E.

It is really early to tell so maybe we are just drawing pictures from smoky dreams, but I hope they don't just crap in the muddy water that already is their naming scheme for current Consumer/Enthusiast chips more.

Lolcano Eruption
Oct 29, 2007
Volcano of LOL.

It would be interesting if Kaby Lake-X had significantly higher clock speed than Kaby Lake-S/K mainstream CPUs, like 5+GHz.

HalloKitty
Sep 30, 2005

Adjust the bass and let the Alpine blast


EdEddnEddy posted:

Why in the hell would anyone buy an "Extreme Edition 4C CPU" in this day and age? Intel hasn't done that in years. It's been 6+ Cores since SB-E.

Gulftown, with the 980X.
(Although there are 4-core CPUs available on the X79 and X99 chipsets, they only carry K as opposed to X as their suffix).

Edit: but Gulftown is just part of the Nehalem family, and there were Extreme Edition 4-core Bloomfields, just not carrying -X in their part number.&

HalloKitty fucked around with this message at Jul 22, 2016 around 22:29

Eletriarnation
Apr 6, 2005

People don't appreciate the substance of things...
objects in space.


My totally based on nothing guess of what all that means (assuming it's not just made up) is that the -X naming does not designate Extreme Edition, it's just their new term for the HEDT package replacing 2011-3. Kaby Lake-X is going to be a 4-core part because they're not actually making a full server line for Kaby Lake. Everything that we've heard about it is basically "Skylake, but with better IGP and encoding and native USB 3.1 (and Thunderbolt 3?)" which is a bunch of stuff that does not matter a bit for servers. Coming back to Kaby Lake-X in particular, this is probably just a repackaged i7-7700K or whatever the top new LGA1151 chip will be. It has the right amount of cores, PCIe lanes and cache (all match Kaby Lake-S), so this could be an entry level chip for people who want whatever the new server chipset will be without having to actually pay the premium for a rebadged Xeon die.

On the other hand, Skylake-X would be more like the Haswell-E and Broadwell-E series where it's really just an unlocked and overclocked low core count Xeon. This makes sense because the HEDT chips are usually a year behind and a true Kaby Lake-E based on theoretical Kaby Lake Xeons would be 2+ years out from now. However, one based on the desktop chips could be out much sooner concurrent with Skylake Xeons.

This also allows Intel the opportunity to get the server line more caught up to the desktop line if they should want to do that. By skipping Kaby Lake-E, they could launch Cannonlake-E closer to when the consumer Cannonlake chips are available without having to tighten up their product release cycle for Xeons.

Again though, this is all just reading the tea leaves from one article. Could be something totally different going on there.

Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at Jul 22, 2016 around 22:25

Sidesaddle Cavalry
Mar 15, 2013

65535

dispel please


Quick observation I forgot to mention: no IGP on Kaby X. Laser pew pew zapped off?

Eletriarnation
Apr 6, 2005

People don't appreciate the substance of things...
objects in space.


Disabled one way or another because HEDT doesn't have IGP. Would be an easy way to use Kaby Lake-S dies that have a flaw in the IGP and otherwise bin well, except I'm betting it will require an altered die with a quad channel memory controller.

EdEddnEddy
Apr 5, 2012



Eletriarnation posted:

Disabled one way or another because HEDT doesn't have IGP. Would be an easy way to use Kaby Lake-S dies that have a flaw in the IGP and otherwise bin well, except I'm betting it will require an altered die with a quad channel memory controller.

Kaby-X looks to only be dual channel, so it would just be the consumer chip without IGP if indeed it was using consumer chips on the X platform.

Weird unless Intel is pushing everything onto a single platform instead of having Z and X at the high end at least. Could a platform exist that could take either CPU and just have features depend on the chip? (Not only PCI-E Slots like X99, but also Dual/Quad channel DDR, IGP, etc?

Eletriarnation
Apr 6, 2005

People don't appreciate the substance of things...
objects in space.


EdEddnEddy posted:

Kaby-X looks to only be dual channel, so it would just be the consumer chip without IGP if indeed it was using consumer chips on the X platform.

Weird unless Intel is pushing everything onto a single platform instead of having Z and X at the high end at least. Could a platform exist that could take either CPU and just have features depend on the chip? (Not only PCI-E Slots like X99, but also Dual/Quad channel DDR, IGP, etc?

In that case it definitely looks like they just have some normal Kaby Lake-S dies that are being repackaged.

The motherboard really only provides traces for memory since the memory controller is on-die now, so the chipset is irrelevant. Carrizo is an example of a chip that has single and dual-channel versions used in the same platforms otherwise. E3 Xeons have versions with IGP and versions without so that already exists too.

Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at Jul 22, 2016 around 22:51

sincx
Jul 13, 2012

What actually transpires beneath the veil of an event horizon? Decent people shouldn't think too much about that.

Is there a standard for USB 3.1 internal headers yet so we can get (cheap) USB C ports on the front of cases?

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

nobody cares


Is anyone even making 3.1 front panels that aren't just attached by 19pin usb 3.0?

SuperDucky
May 13, 2007

You're my favorite deputy!


Eletriarnation posted:

My totally based on nothing guess of what all that means (assuming it's not just made up) is that the -X naming does not designate Extreme Edition, it's just their new term for the HEDT package replacing 2011-3. Kaby Lake-X is going to be a 4-core part because they're not actually making a full server line for Kaby Lake.
Yeah this is definitely not in line what what I've seen.

Although at this rate who knows what will actually drop in the next 6 months let alone 18. Its loving chaos in the midrange server market right now.

Eletriarnation
Apr 6, 2005

People don't appreciate the substance of things...
objects in space.


Yeah, it's a total guess and I have no inside information to that part of the industry so anyone who does could well be shaking their head. I feel like Intel probably wants ~1.5 year life cycles for Xeon generations and ~1 year life cycles for Core i* generations, so with time the two will diverge more and more unless Xeon skips some generations. Maybe we just haven't heard about it yet but nothing I've heard tied to Kaby Lake seems interesting yet from an enterprise perspective, so it seems like a good candidate if they wanted to do that and release Cannonlake-E just several months behind Cannonlake instead of a couple years.

There's obviously a lot of ways for them to handle it though, and I'm getting ahead of myself trying to predict what Kaby Lake-E could look like when I haven't heard much about Skylake-E.

This also assumes that Cannonlake will release on time and be able to scale up to 30-core processors or whatever insanity they have planned on the new 10nm process.

japtor
Oct 28, 2005
WELL ARNT I JUST MR. LA DE FUCKEN DA. oh yea and i suck cocks too


The neat thing about Skylake-E with the Cannonlake delay was just catching up in architecture for the first time in god knows when (and adding stuff on top of that). The last/only things I remember about it were that big rear end socket and all this stuff, although maybe that's old enough that poo poo might've all changed by now

Eletriarnation
Apr 6, 2005

People don't appreciate the substance of things...
objects in space.


Hadn't seen that second link before. Most of what it says makes sense, but there are a few interesting tidbits like E5 and E7 Xeon lines getting combined and "Skylake Purley will also have Cannonlake graphics support", which I don't understand because Xeons typically don't have an IGP. Integrated 10GE and 100G OmniPath is also cool.

Tab8715
May 20, 2006



All I care for is eGPUs and USB 3.1-Gen2 Standardized for charging, video and audio.

One cable to rule them all!

Ak Gara
Jul 29, 2005

That's just the way he rolls.

There's some thing I don't get, is it motherboard limited or cpu limited that a motherboard would come with 2 USB 3. 0's and 20 USB 2.0's? They're backwards compatible! Why even include the slower ones? Same for SATA, why only 2 SATA 6gbps and 10 SATA 3gbps?

If it was just cost, I'd imagine the top end boards would at least offer for more money?

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

~death to capitalism~
Chrome OS is shit for idiots



Ak Gara posted:

There's some thing I don't get, is it motherboard limited or cpu limited that a motherboard would come with 2 USB 3. 0's and 20 USB 2.0's? They're backwards compatible! Why even include the slower ones? Same for SATA, why only 2 SATA 6gbps and 10 SATA 3gbps?

If it was just cost, I'd imagine the top end boards would at least offer for more money?

You only need SATA II for conventional hard drives, unless you're going for some real high-end drives. Similarly, it's perfectly fine to plug your mouse and keyboard into USB 2.0 ports - and if you want to support Windows 7 well, as many customers still need, you should have some 2.0 ports in there because 7 has trouble using 3.0 in a fresh install. There are also some instances where certain USB 1.0/1.1 devices people still have won't work right on USB 3.0 ports due to driver/implementation issues, especially if the usb 1.0/1.1 device was connected to a hub. I think newer chipsets aren't known to have this problem anymore, but it was a thing for a bit.

And in some cases there just isn't enough bandwidth available to the CPU/on the motherboard to handle having all the ports they want to sell you be at sata iii/usb 3 respecetively, but that's comparatively rare nowadays.

Atomizer
Jun 24, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 23 hours!


Ak Gara posted:

There's some thing I don't get, is it motherboard limited or cpu limited that a motherboard would come with 2 USB 3. 0's and 20 USB 2.0's? They're backwards compatible! Why even include the slower ones? Same for SATA, why only 2 SATA 6gbps and 10 SATA 3gbps?

If it was just cost, I'd imagine the top end boards would at least offer for more money?

I haven't quite seen a 2:20 disparity, but in general I've wondered why current systems/mobos can be found with any more than about 4 USB2 ports. My 3+ year old SFF desktop has 2xUSB3 in the front, and without even looking I believe I have 4xUSB3 and 2xUSB2 in the back; if anything I'm surprised that it has more USB3 ports and doesn't at least have 4xUSB2.

There's a couple reasons I can think of. First of all, like you said, cost; if a mobo manufacturer can sell boards with only a few USB3 ports, and adding more increases costs greater than returns, then they're not going to do it. If most people don't need 10xUSB3 ports, then they're not going to want to spend way more than they need to for a system. In general, USB2 ports are fine for most of the devices you already have and use daily: mouse, keyboard, headset/USB audio device, webcam, BT adapter, printer, other game controllers, etc. USB3's speed is really only needed for things like a Gigabit Ethernet adapter, or external storage devices, and how many external HDDs do you actually need connected to a single PC simultaneously? I mean I'm sure you can find uses for extra USB3 ports, but you can probably only make use of a few at once. Personally, I only use at most one of the USB3 ports in the front for temporary access to a USB flash drive or external HDD; everything else I have connected to this PC is via a USB2 hub.

Another reason you won't just find a bunch of USB3 ports with a complete absence of USB2 ports is compatibility; some older devices may not function as expected when connected to USB3 despite supposed backwards compatibility, and there is known interference from USB3 on the 2.4 GHz wireless band.

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



The blue ports still do USB 2.0 speeds if you plug in a 2.0 device

Also with flex io some of the high speed I/os are mixed, letting the mobo manufacturers decide a bit on the port allocation and for some reason they all seem to insist on maxing out the SATA ports

WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at Jul 24, 2016 around 01:48

SuperDucky
May 13, 2007

You're my favorite deputy!


Eletriarnation posted:

Yeah, it's a total guess and I have no inside information to that part of the industry so anyone who does could well be shaking their head.
Trust me, we in the embedded market all are. Plus my company isn't big enough to have any sway with them, we just have to go with the flow.

Palladium
May 8, 2012


Atomizer posted:

I haven't quite seen a 2:20 disparity, but in general I've wondered why current systems/mobos can be found with any more than about 4 USB2 ports. My 3+ year old SFF desktop has 2xUSB3 in the front, and without even looking I believe I have 4xUSB3 and 2xUSB2 in the back; if anything I'm surprised that it has more USB3 ports and doesn't at least have 4xUSB2.

There's a couple reasons I can think of. First of all, like you said, cost; if a mobo manufacturer can sell boards with only a few USB3 ports, and adding more increases costs greater than returns, then they're not going to do it. If most people don't need 10xUSB3 ports, then they're not going to want to spend way more than they need to for a system. In general, USB2 ports are fine for most of the devices you already have and use daily: mouse, keyboard, headset/USB audio device, webcam, BT adapter, printer, other game controllers, etc. USB3's speed is really only needed for things like a Gigabit Ethernet adapter, or external storage devices, and how many external HDDs do you actually need connected to a single PC simultaneously? I mean I'm sure you can find uses for extra USB3 ports, but you can probably only make use of a few at once. Personally, I only use at most one of the USB3 ports in the front for temporary access to a USB flash drive or external HDD; everything else I have connected to this PC is via a USB2 hub.

Another reason you won't just find a bunch of USB3 ports with a complete absence of USB2 ports is compatibility; some older devices may not function as expected when connected to USB3 despite supposed backwards compatibility, and there is known interference from USB3 on the 2.4 GHz wireless band.

Unless one has some niche I can't see anybody needing more than 2x USB3 + 4x USB2 on the back and 2x USB3 at the front, which is found at least in every mobo now except at the lowest of low end. Virtually everything also has a integrated GbE port anyway if you need wired Ethernet, so that's one less use on a USB3 port. Like you said portable storage can be easily be plugged/unplugged from the front, which usually leaves a Wi-Fi adaptor and maybe a fixed smartphone cable that use USB3 at the back.

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



It's not supposed backwards compatibility. USB HS and SS use different lines. In the case of the blue 3.0 connector, the 2.0 lines are routed to the high speed port on the XHCI controller and the 3.0 lines go to the super speed port. If you plug in a 2.0 device to a 3.0 port, you're not physically connecting to any of the SS lines or port on the controller.

I'd imagine that mobo makers don't want to deal with routing out so many high speed lines to that area of the board and deal with the compatibility testing headache for something that not a lot of people need or want.

WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at Jul 28, 2016 around 15:04

Green Gloves
Mar 3, 2008


My I7 4790k is getting up to 90*C under load running at stock speeds @ 1.25V (voltage set to auto) when it hits 4400 mhz. I am using arctic silver and I used a peasize amount in the middle of the processor so I think the thermal paste coverage is pretty good. Does this processor just run this hot or should look into undervolting or getting an aftermarket cooler?

Moey
Oct 22, 2010



That is way too high. How long ago did you apply the thermal paste?

I have no idea if this is proper, but I like to put a pea sized ball on the cpu, then smear it flat with my finger inside a ziplock bag. Never had issues.

EdEddnEddy
Apr 5, 2012



The pea size is ok and I am not a fan of manually spreading it, but what cooler/fan do you have? That is hot for stock under full load but if you have a crappy cooler, mismounted it in some way (not the pushpin style is it? If so make sure everything is pushed in snug and tight), or the fan setting is way to low.

Green Gloves
Mar 3, 2008


EdEddnEddy posted:

The pea size is ok and I am not a fan of manually spreading it, but what cooler/fan do you have? That is hot for stock under full load but if you have a crappy cooler, mismounted it in some way (not the pushpin style is it? If so make sure everything is pushed in snug and tight), or the fan setting is way to low.

I use the stock cooler/heatsink. Everything is pushed in snug and tight. I replaced the paste just recently because I upgraded my motherboard to use with a NZXT s340. I will check the fan setting.

If I get the CM 212 evo will it be louder than the stock fan? Ive used a zalman cpu cooler in the past and while the temps were lowered. It was annoyingly loud.

JnnyThndrs
May 29, 2001

HERE ARE THE FUCKING TOWELS

212 Evo is way quieter than the stock Intel unit, especially when the fans ramp up.

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005
I only have canyoneyes for you

JnnyThndrs posted:

212 Evo is way quieter than the stock Intel unit, especially when the fans ramp up.

Yep. Bigger fans don't need to spin as fast to move the same volume of air.

EdEddnEddy
Apr 5, 2012



Yea you're mainly cooler limited it sounds. Replace it with that 212 and you should be much cooler at 4.4ghz.

Green Gloves
Mar 3, 2008


Thanks I will look into getting an evo. Coolermaster psu calculator says that my i7 4790k, z97 pc mate, 16 gb ddr3, one ssd, one 5200 rpm, 390x consumes 430 Watts with a recommended suggestion of 480 watts. My power supply is a Seasonic 550w g series w/ +12V@45A.

I am planning to undervolt my 390x to save a few watts. Think Ill be alright adding an evo?

HMS Boromir
Jul 16, 2011

Zera will get off his porcelain throne and make everything okay.

A 120mm fan draws like 3 watts, it's not even a consideration.

Anime Schoolgirl
Nov 28, 2002

~*perfect archangel*~


downvolting Hawaii at its rated stock clock can net you as much as 75 watts of power savings just about reaching Maxwell efficiency, even more if you were willing to underclock to Fire Pro levels.

Sidesaddle Cavalry
Mar 15, 2013

65535

dispel please


Green Gloves posted:

My I7 4790k is getting up to 90*C under load running at stock speeds @ 1.25V (voltage set to auto) when it hits 4400 mhz.

What load are you measuring this on, by the way? This helps the thread tell if the temperature is normal.

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:

What load are you measuring this on, by the way? This helps the thread tell if the temperature is normal.

Yes - someone in SH/SH (possibly this thread) told me that "utilization" as measured by (eg) Task Manager/HWMonitor64 is measured at the instruction decode unit, rather than in the execution units (which are what consume most of the power).

This means there's a huge difference between various loads - something like Prime95-SmallFFT is in the neighborhood of 1.5-2x the power consumption/heat output of most real-world loads, and it's perfectly natural to hit absurd temperatures because the chip is running its most power-intensive execution units nonstop.

Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at Jul 29, 2016 around 23:43

AVeryLargeRadish
Aug 19, 2011

WolfDad is Best Dad.


Paul MaudDib posted:

Yes - someone in SH/SH (possibly this thread) told me that "load" is measured at the instruction decode unit, rather than in the execution units (which are what consume most of the power).

This means there's a huge difference between various loads - something like Prime95-SmallFFT is in the neighborhood of 1.5-2x the power consumption/heat output of most real-world loads, and it's perfectly natural to hit absurd temperatures because the chip is running its most power-intensive execution units nonstop.

This is true but he is running the stock cooler so very high temps are pretty much expected, I would never run a 4790k on stock cooling if I had any other choices.

JnnyThndrs
May 29, 2001

HERE ARE THE FUCKING TOWELS

Yeah, the stock cooler is adequate -sorta- for stock clocks on a 4790k, but I would never overclock with it. Not when an Evo 212 is $29 or less.

Green Gloves
Mar 3, 2008


I am just playing Doom for 30 minutes and the temperature shoots up to 90*C.

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wipeout
Aug 22, 2004

Man, this is the kind
of cake that, you know,
there are no words to describe.


Green Gloves posted:

I use the stock cooler/heatsink. Everything is pushed in snug and tight. I replaced the paste just recently because I upgraded my motherboard to use with a NZXT s340. I will check the fan setting

If you took the Intel cooler off and refitted it, that could be part of why it's hot - the push pins can get fucky and the clamping force goes to poo poo.

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