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canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

Nostrum posted:

(Or is it Tocks/Ticks? I always think it's the opposite until I look it up.)

Tick is die shrink. It helps me remember that the I in 'tick' and a the two Is in 'die shrink'.

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canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

Factory Factory posted:

But regarding Haswell not being able to hold a candle... Remember how when the i7-2600K came out, it matched or beat the i7-980X in a majority of benchmarks? That hasn't stopped being a thing that can happen.

Not to mention, comparing one year's $1,000 chip to next year's $300 chip is a pretty harsh baseline

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

Henrik Zetterberg posted:

Still rolling on my old Yorkfield and other hardware just as old, but just got my complimentary IVB i7-3770k from work. Pairing this up with a DZ77RE-75K and 240gb 520 SSD.

:getin:

Making me jealous. The CLP on my site only has SNB chips, with nary an i7 in sight :smith:

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you
This reminds me of all the bellyaching when northbridge functions were moved on the processor die. The :pcgaming:exxxtreme overclockers:pcgaming: were bothered that they would no longer be able to buy extra, noisy fans and heatsinks for the northbridge chipset and maintain their freezy temps.

This will certainly make RMAs with ODMs much more interesting. If some capacitors on your Gigabyte motherboard takes a dump, will they pry out the BGA CPU and bin that to reattach to a 'refurbished' board later?

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

movax posted:

You can rework BGAs yeah, but it might be more cost effective for them to simply replace the entire mobo + CPU combo. I guess the irritating part of that will be getting a new LAN MAC address too; I assume everyone who shipped defective 6-series chipsets recycled assigned MACs after destroying the old boards (or kept 'em if they reworked, I guess).

This sounds like it would introduce some more risk for the ODM's. If the cost to replace the entire board goes up as such, the logical paths would be warranties getting crappier or QA and design cutting fewer corners.
I can tell you which I would prefer.

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you
There are a half dozen reputable ODMs to purchase motherboards from these days. If there's money to be made pairing an overclockable i5 with a vanilla-esque board that supports overclocking, I'd bet one of them will do so. Motherboards are somewhat of a commodity item, and I don't expect anyone would want to leave money on the table.

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you
Andy Bryant Will Now Lead Intel Into The Foundry Era

This may be too biz strategy focused for this thread. This article is pretty interesting. It's one of the more believable 'future of Intel' articles I've read. The author there makes a pretty good case for Intel ditching Atom and mobile chips entirely, keeping their profitable client and datacenter businesses, and opening their leading edge fabs as foundries making chips for their current competitors.
It makes sense in a lot of ways. There are almost no semiconductor designers who operate their own fabs anymore, and the acceleration in the investment required to keep up with fab tech is even leaving some pure foundry companies in the dust.
They will probably need to either make piles of money by a big win in the mobile space (which few are optimistic about) or exit the mobile space entirely and open up as a foundry for those former competitors. Right now it's that awkward in-between.

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

movax posted:

The -K versions have always lacked Vt-d as well, which sucks and is pure market segmentation as well. At least you still get Vt-x on them, but I think Microsoft would get very annoyed if they started segmenting that away.

In other news, the 2600K and its friends are getting discontinued in March (not that this wasn't expected just more of a FYI), and model numbers for Haswell chips were leaked, no real surprises there either.

4670K will take over as recommended CPU for the most part, with the 4770K coming in at the top for now. New graphics core as well, so Haswell laptops that don't sport a discrete GPU (ThinkPad T440 :getin:) are looking better and better.

I have a dinosaur first gen Athlon 64 paired with a dinosaur Geforce GT 240. I am broke, and by default waiting until Haswell for a refresh.
From what I've been reading, I can probably expect the integrated gpu to be better than what I currently have :negative:

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

coffeetable posted:

Do Intel's competitors have any hope of catching up at this point? And where did Intel's lead come from anyway? Was it luck, a huge R&D budget, their competitors loving up or what?

Some good responses on this question already, but a huge advantage is in manufacturing. AMD doesn't own any manufacturing space, and in other segments few other competitors run fabs either. Most run their chips through one of just a handful of foundries (TSMC, Global Foundries, UMC, Samsung) That list gets smaller and smaller as the years progress and cash requirements to invest in the latest manufacturing technology. They can't afford to invest to get the volumes and yields needed to compete for foundry business, and they disappear.

Every other player in semiconductors acknowledges that Intel has significant time & distance advantages in manufacturing technology. If AMD could get the kind of quality and yields out of Global Foundries fabs that Intel gets out of Intel fabs, it would be a much closer race.

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you
http://techreport.com/news/24162/intel-reveals-7w-ivy-bridge-cpus-convertible-haswell-ultrabook

CES conference showed the new Ivy Bridge Y series, coming in at 7W :stare:
As the manufacturing process is maturing, we're seeing some pretty rad SKUs come out. I wonder what this means in context of the 8W Haswell demo last year. I'm not an engineer, but could this mean there could be a Haswell Y series running at 5W at this time next year?

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you
This seems like as good a place to discuss it as any:
Intel to add Cisco in Foundry Effort

If true, this is bad news for Intel's competitors. When volumes go up in Intel fabs, it keeps costs low for their other products. (that is, production costs, not prices :v:)

No acknowledgment from either company though.

canyoneer fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Jan 18, 2013

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

Broadwell will use the same socket as Haswell right?

I wouldn't count on it.

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you
The name of the game for years has been that the consumer products make up the volumes, which subsidize the cost of the high dollar/high margin server silicon.

The big risk isn't that Intel is missing the revenue and single digit margins from mobile phones/tablets. The risk is that without the economies of scale that come from those volumes, the margins on their cash cows erode. It's not a "top line" revenue concern, it's a "bottom line" concern.

If they weren't pushing through the volumes of silicon for consumer products and keeping their bleeding edgs fabs loaded, they wouldn't be pulling off the high margins in the high dollar spaces. That's why the fear exists that if they can't deliver some volume in mobile, they may have to start foundry work for others. Else, they end up where AMD is, low margins and fabless (instead of high margins and fabulous:rory:)

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

Factory Factory posted:

There may be technologies like nano-fiber-optics which produce less waste heat, but you won't get no waste heat.

Raises the stakes on overclocking. If you fry your processor and breathe it in, YOU DIE maybe :v:

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

IratelyBlank posted:

When something refers to a 22nm architecture, is this the width of the depletion region in the semiconductor or is this the actual spacing between the transistors wrt each other?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/22_nanometer
Half-pitch between identical features.

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you
Then we get immersion, double patterning, multigates....

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you
EUV, baby

That article from ASML says they've printed 13nm features in a single exposure in a test environment. The difference between this and pie-in-the-sky graphene is that this is the logical evolution on the existing process (make the light wavelengths smaller to make smaller things).
That said, some effects of EUV lithography are still pretty difficult to predict.

Re: the Intel/ASML investment, you can read that article and see why they chose to do it. From a manufacturing perspective, the foundries have been drinking out of wells dug by Intel for a long time.

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

ehnus posted:

I've got a Pineview mini-ITX machine I run Linux on but it's a couple years old. I like that the machine uses basically no power and is completely silent, but it would be kinda nice to upgrade. Any idea when the next generation of Atoms will be available in a desktop-ish form factor?

http://liliputing.com/2013/06/intel-nuc-mini-computers-with-haswell-chips-coming-in-q3-2013.html

If you want to go all out, the rumor is that some of the Haswell-based NUCs will have totally fanless, passive cooling later this year

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you
I for one wish that they would have continued the Pentium branding, and called the Pentium 2 a "Sexium" instead. :haw:

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

necrobobsledder posted:

Was North America Intel's largest market for them by that far though? I thought part of the reason for the really terse, robotic names common among corporations had to do with international acceptance (some Chinese readers having trouble with certain letters / sound combinations, for example)?

http://www.c-i-a.com/worldwideuseexec.htm

Yeah. This report shows that the US represented about half the annual sales of PCs in 1995. Even among international sales, I'd be surprised if China represented a whole lot of that in 1995.

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you
From the first handshake to the first foundry wafer out the door is not a matter of weeks, it's a very long process measured in months or years.

And most market analysts are terrible, and have some really silly ideas of what it takes to run a semiconductor fab.

And this isn't Intel's first encounter with ARM products in their revenue stream.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XScale
So, this isn't very stunning news.

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

Alereon posted:

There will be at least some 15W Broadwell CPUs launching in Q4 2014, per the latest roadmap. Broadwell is Intel's first 14nm CPU, die shrinks usually offer significant performance and power benefits.

14nm is about ~30 silicon atoms laid end to end :wow:

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

HalloKitty posted:

Oh, not so much, it's just it seems remarkably petty to eliminate features that are no doubt still available, just locked out.

There are no "free" features in this world.
If they believed there was enough of a market, they'd create a new SKU and have you pay more for that set of features. Until then it's zippy-zap with the laser.

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you
The only reason anyone says "Intel Core 4th Generation Processor" is because Intel gets pissed off when people call their products by code names (Haswell, Ivy Bridge, Sandy Bridge, etc.) IIRC, they don't allow OEMs, builders and retailers to advertise machines as "Haswell" machines. Instead, they'd rather use the "[number]th Generation Core" brand name.

It still makes some sense though, when someone is pricing a laptop and sees the model number of the processor, they think "bigger number is better number" and would probably choose a 45xx processor instead of a 35xx processor.

(Yes, I know that falls apart when you're comparing an Ivy Bridge i7 37xx and a Haswell i3 43xx, but those are going to be priced so dissimilarly that it's an unlikely mistake)

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

Chuu posted:

A quick search of "Haswell" on newegg shows this not to be true.

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/trademarks/codenames.html

quote:

Third party use of Intel code names
Customers, licensees, and other third parties are not authorized by Intel to use Intel code names in advertising, promotion or marketing of any product or service. The use of any Intel code name in advertising will automatically disqualify the advertisement from qualification for reimbursement under any Intel cooperative marketing program, and could result in termination from Intel marketing programs.

I suppose "does not allow" is different than "does not authorize."

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

Huh.
I don't know a lot of the words or concepts in the article, but one of the comments said that operators grumble at Intel's hardware prices, but like the open nature of x86 software. The inverse is true for the IBM architecture: cheaper hardware, fewer and more expensive software options.

Is there truth to that?

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

HalloKitty posted:

The only thing that's memorable is their jingle. That said, they sell a product to people who have no idea what it even is, so I guess marketing have a difficult job.

Fun fact: they call it the "Intel Bong" :drugnerd:

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you
Is anyone really surprised that modern video games, designed to reach the largest market by running on consoles and as many existing PCs as possible, are not pushing newest generation processors to the limit?

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

Ignoarints posted:

Speaking of again, you just reminded me list my build on craigslist with a 40% markup (just did). Crossing my fingers for brand new devil canyons build for free

The true craigslist model is to sell an AMD-based system in a cheap case for a 100% markup that is full of pirated software.

WhyteRyce posted:

I continually buy budget level (or plain Intel) uATX boards because they are the only ones that don't have stupid things that end up being obstructions in my HTPC cases :(

Bad news for you, because the news says there will be no more Intel branded boards after Haswell.

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

Rime posted:

That IEEE article is a great summary of how hosed things are getting in foundry land. :v:

With the important caveat at the end

quote:

Many people in the industry, who have watched showstopper after showstopper crop up only to be bypassed by a new development, are reluctant to put a hard date on Moore’s Law’s demise. “Every generation, there are people who will say we’re coming to the end of the shrink,” says ASML’s Arnold, and in “every generation various improvements do come about. I haven’t seen the end of the road map.”

You can pull up articles from the 90's all the way through today that predict the demise of Moore's law at [current date] plus five years (tops!). And smartypants engineers figure it out every time. The end of process shrinking cadence of 18-24 months will probably come, but I don't think it will be soon.

However, EUV patterning with any kind of good yield and volume (as far as I know) is still a HUGE question mark right now. At least it was a year ago when I did a lot of reading about it.

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

japtor posted:

Does Chip Loco have any reputation or is this all likely BS? E5 2600 and 1600 v3 lineups:

http://www.chiploco.com/haswell-ep-e5-2600-v3-specs-35055/
http://www.chiploco.com/intel-haswell-ep-e5-1600-v3-35072/

18 cores! :holymoley:

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you
http://www.businessinsider.com/a-horrible-hoax-on-intel-2014-8

Intel got pranked. Or "targeted by an activist", I guess. The guy set up a fake press release to say that Intel is ceasing future investment in Israel due to human rights abuses.

I expect they're probably pretty bothered by it.

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

"Worth" is a loaded question.
Think about how teeny the individual die is. 200-300 sq mm each for Haswell stuff. And the wafers are 300mm across, a total surface area of 70,000 sq mm. Since it's a circle, you can't be fully efficient with the rectangular dice filling all available space, but you're still talking probably 200 dice on each wafer. The yield is probably not 100% there either, but if you're selling 80% of those that's a retail value in five figures, yeah.
How much they spent in materials, labor and equipment to get it there is some number less than retail value, but still pretty big.
So if you were an employee goofing off and dropped a FOUP, you probably smashed wafers worth many times the amount of your annual salary. :v:

edit:
Those wafer moving robot arms are not as cool as they could be. I want them to have big white gloves on like in the cartoon factories.

canyoneer fucked around with this message at 07:25 on Sep 4, 2014

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

LeftistMuslimObama posted:

I always wondered, why do they make the wafers circles instead of squares anyway?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_coating

If you want a layer of something (like photoresist!) deposited uniformly and evenly across a surface, spinning it is a pretty good way to get there.
Gets trickier when the wafers are not circular.

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you
Sometimes suggesting the smart thing for your company to do is not a smart thing for your career.

I mean, the guy is objectively wrong in every single way but what (if anything) you should do about it is probably beyond the expertise of this thread due to all the unknowns.

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

Tahirovic posted:

Thank you and The Lord Bude for the nice answers. It feels horrible to be so clueless about hardware.

I was willing to pay the 150$ extra for the 5930K over the 5820K (given the benchmarks from overclocker's or tom's I actually forgot) showed it being just ever so slightly better even with games. That was before anyhow. Your post about cooling/power consumption was kinda the last bit needed to get me away from Haswell-E, so I'll just try get a 4790K and OC that while trying to keep it quiet. Maybe I can invest the saved money into better/higher quality cooling solutions instead.

You may already be covered here, but if you're not already hooked up in this regard and trying to spend more money, get a nice monitor or nice keyboard/mouse. Those are often overlooked but they are huge quality of life improvements.

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

Rime posted:

I was in the exact same boat, and frankly it's worthwhile to upgrade now just for quality of life improvements. The BIOS upgrade alone will decrease your boot time by 3/4, for example.

I remember buying a Western Digital Raptor and feeling really cool that I could go from cold boot to usable desktop in ~8 seconds.

Now with an SSD and faster BIOS, it's like 3 seconds :pcgaming:
I've been doing my best to get my money's worth of productivity from that extra 5 seconds I save in the 2 or 3 times a month I restart my PC.

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

Doesn't the joke go something like "high performance computing is the science of turning a CPU-bound problem into an input-bound problem"?

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

cisco privilege posted:

Not sure about the other Intel mobile stuff, but they make some socs for phones like the RAZR-I which had better battery life than the RAZR-M base model somehow.

The Dell Venue 8 7000 looks pretty slick. It's Android instead of dumb Windows, has a great screen (2560x1600 :eyepop:), and it's $50 cheaper than the ipad mini 3 (and 1.5mm thinner :smug:).

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canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you
Speaking of corechat from the other day, I saw a meme the other day titled "multi core performance on PC games".
I wish I could find it again. It was a photo of these guys digging a hole with shovels. The only one actually digging was labeled Core 0, and Cores 1-7 were all sitting around watching.

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