L5R 4th Edition - Well... WotC did it first!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > L5R 4th Edition - Well... WotC did it first!

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

I'm ready for Emperor Token.

# ¿ Sep 12, 2015 20:34

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 03:37

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Well, Phoenixes have always been arrogant assholes and hypocrites, so it's not too far-fetched there...

# ¿ Dec 19, 2015 08:08

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Yoritomo have always been linked with Osano-Wo and Thunder, though, it's not just lightning magic.

# ¿ Dec 19, 2015 23:08

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

ProfessorCirno posted:

Yeah, but they need a means to apply that to something that isn't "throw lightning bolts"

Like the Moshi have this deep traditional stance focused on praising the sun, and that translates to "is REAL good at throwing fireballs," which is more or less the very text of the problem.

Oh sure, I agree. But I think refocusing the Yoritomo on the spiritual aspects they already have is more interesting than just getting rid of them is all.

# ¿ Dec 20, 2015 01:28

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Jade Strike: the way Crab Shugenjas say hello.

# ¿ Dec 31, 2015 11:30

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Blockhouse posted:

the answer to "when should I set my L5R game" should always be "one of the cool AUs from the Imperial History books"

Or make up your own era, like I'm currently doing for a game I'm planning! It's about a secret war between the Shadow and the Kolat in the century before the return of the Unicorn and the PCs will help start a third conspiracy to defeat them both.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2016 17:43

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Actually, as I'm planning my game, I've started butting head with some frustrating rules of 4E. Now, don't get me wrong, it's still my favorite edition of Legend of the Five Rings, but it's not perfect. My complaints mostly consist of:

- There's some really unclear wordings
- Paths are really badly designed
- Ronins/Minor Clans get the short end of the stick
- Some advantages/disadvantages need work

None of this is game breaking, of course. But it is frustrating. Paths are really the one that gets me the most. In previous editions, the way Paths worked was kind of weirdly complex and led to some weird meta-game, but I think the solution ended up worse than the problem. Almost no path is worth taking, outside of some lucky ones, because they're all either really bad or replace a core technique of your school. The perfect example is the Ujina Skirmisher, which is an okay technique but replaces a core technique of the Hare school that gets improved at Rank 4. Meaning suddenly they have no Rank 4 technique? Another example of bad design is the Suzume bushi, which is actually an alright school except the Rank 3 technique which is worse than useless. You get to spend a VP to add a worse bonus than a normal VP. They then printed a Suzume Storyteller path, except it replaces the actually good Rank 2 technique with another terrible "Spend a VP to get less than a normal VP" technique.

I'm not sure how to "fix" this. Should I go back to pre-4E Paths that were slotted between normal Ranks? Especially since now there aren't Insight Caps anymore, this shouldn't be as much of a problem as it used to be.

Edit: And don't get me started about how terrible most of the Ronin Paths past Rank 1.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2016 18:47

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Spookyelectric posted:

Most of this makes sense when you realize that the point of playing a Minor Clan is that it sucks.

I mean, in First Edition Minor Clans didn't even have techniques past Rank 3. We should consider ourselves lucky there are even five techniques for Minor Clans schools in 4th, much less one alternative path for flavor. One might argue that this is not a system for people looking for supremely balanced factions or characters (and it never was), and if players are focusing on making mechanically-superior characters or murderhobos, they may find it very dissatisfying unless they stick to a handful of schools and are treating it purely as a combat simulator... which really wasn't the intent of the game and there frankly are other systems that do it better.

(Funny story, when I originally wrote the Suzume Storyteller Path, it replaced the Rank 3 technique. After playtesting they changed it to replace Rank 2.)

As for how to "fix" it, there is always allowing players the option of taking one of the "generic/self-trained samurai techniques" from the Imperial Archives instead of their corresponding school technique. Those are generally pretty useful.

I'm sorry, but that's a huge cop out. There's a difference between "perfect balance" and "this technique is terrible and useless and no one will use it ever". You don't need to make the Minor Clans Schools/Ronin Paths/All Paths balanced with each other to have them be useful.

As for Muderhobos, that's kind of a strawman? You don't need to go full D&D kill & loot to want your character to not suck at what his school supposedly does in the fluff.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2016 20:57

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Alien Rope Burn posted:

You know, as much as I'd like to jump on Spookyelectric's post, I'm gonna try and keep it more positive. I'll just say I strongly disagree with that design stance.

What would people like to see changed in Legend of the Five Rings, rules-wise? What do people find unsatisfactory about it as it stands? I say this not just to take an critical swipe at 4th edition, but since we've probably got a long gap until 5th edition, the idea of going through and doing a fan-based retooling (like was recently done for Exalted 3e) has been weighing on my mind. As such, I'm curious as to what people have disliked in this edition, or would like to see return from earlier editions?

I'm not making any promises, but as issues like the ronin techniques and the paths come up over and over again, I think it'd be interesting to try and come up with some solutions to these issues.

I've mostly already said my problems with 4E. Tighter wording of mechanical effects so that nothing's unclear (example: the condition on which you lose the Mirumoto ancestor are really weird if you're going purely as written), better integration of the Paths mechanic and no technique that is pointless (similar to what ProfessorCirno is saying). I don't mind if not all schools are balanced: Isawa are pretty much the 'best wizards' but the other Shugenja school are still interesting to play despite being somewhat less good. But they should be fun to play and be good at what they're supposed to be good at.

I do have to ask about that fan rework of 3E. While I've switched over to 4E a long time ago, I played 3E for a few years and I'm curious as to how it looks.

NGDBSS posted:

I'm not certain that the Suzume Bushi Rank 3 and Suzume Storyteller abilities are useless (since school techniques don't trigger the one-VP-per-round limit), but they do have a notable problem in completely failing to synergize with the rest of the school. This is particularly weird considering that the flavor text implies that a synergy should exist in the first place. (That said, while ronin paths can be annoying to deal with relative to their benefit at least the books do say that playing a ronin is basically hard mode.)

My particular patch to the problem of odd timing would be to allow an alternate path to be taken at the given rank or at a higher one corresponding to the relevant school. Of course it's a houserule, but prima facie it doesn't seem terribly weird considering that whatever you're replacing is usually (*coughSuzumeBushicough*) designed to work in concert with the rest of the school.

Spending 2 Void Points to add 1K1+Honor to one roll is really bad. Either give the bonus to every roll for free or add to a normal VP expenditure, like other similar schools.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2016 22:06

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Yawgmoth posted:

Personally, my biggest gripe with the game is how RAW getting a high roll doesn't benefit you in any way for 99% of rolls made unless you had the prescience to take raises beforehand. Raises are a cool idea in theory, but it sucks incredibly to have your dice go nuclear but get nothing beyond what a 20 might grant because you couldn't see the future and take all the raises. Just something like "every 10 (15?) above your final TN counts as a free raise", or maybe being able to spend a VP to call some number of raises after the fact, but only if one or more dice exploded, would go miles towards alleviating the "gently caress you, your big outlier rolls count for nothing unless you gamble on getting a big outlier!" feelbad.

I think that's what they were going for, though? Where taking risk, "raising the stakes", is more rewarded than just pure luck.

It is kind of counter-intuitive though.

# ¿ Apr 11, 2016 16:30

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

I'd be down for a FFG system where every ring gets its own special dice.

Also curious about that in-progress 5E. Any spoilers about it somewhere.

# ¿ Apr 11, 2016 21:26

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

So was bored today and wrote up two minor clan bushi schools. I'm not happy with a few techniques so I,m posting them here to ask for feedback.

Frog Bushi (In the case the Kaeru become a minor clan, like in Heroes of Rokugan 3
+1 Perception
honor: 4,5 seems about right
bojustsu (Machi-Kanshisha), hunting, investigation, Lore: Law, Commerce, Etiquette, Any one Bugei or Merchant skill
Rank 1 Way of the Frog
Can use all Staff weapons with honor or glory loss
+1k0 to attack rolls with Staves and +1k0 to damage rolls with Machi-Kanshisha (this might seem a lot, but at 1k2 Machi-Kanshisha are still not as good as a Bo staff)
Rank 2 Smoke and Mirrors
Disarm and Knockdown Maneuvers require one less raise
Rank 3 Flick of the Tongue
Can Attack as a Simple Action when wielding Staves
Rank 4 Poisoned Frog
+1k1 Damage when attacking Prone or Disarmed opponents (does not stack)
Rank 5 Pipe Dreams
Add Water Ring x 5 to TN to be Hit when wielding a Staff (this one I'm really not sure, but I think the name fits the thematic of the fat frog smoking a pipe so I'm not sure what else to put as a technique with that name?)

Raven Bushi
So the Raven Clan are one of the possible minor clans in Imperial Archives and I think they're cool. They live in really isolated lovely lands so they go out to get hired as Yojimbos and send the money back home or give it to the Brotherhood of Shinsei (they're pretty close to the brotherhood). I thought that was an interesting concept so I built a bushi school around that.
+1 Stamina
Karasu Family +1 Willpower
Kenjutsu, Survival, Hunting, Defense, Athletics, Meditation, Any one skill
Rank 1 Way of the Raven
When using the Guard Maneuver, gain Reduction equal to Earth Ring
(The idea is, they take the hit when protecting their charges, a different way to yojimbo)
Rank 2 Wisdom of the Road
Add 1k0 to all School Skill rolls when outside of Towns/Cities
(This one I'm really unhappy with, I wanted something to reflect their wandering nature but I feel like this is too broad/powerful)
Rank 3 Flutter of Wings
May attack as a simple action with a daisho
Rank 4 Scavenger Bird
Wound penalties are only applied/updated at the reaction step each round
(the idea is they get to make a counter-strike after taking a hit for their charge)
Rank 5 An Unkindness of Ravens
Gain a Void Point when receiving an attack due to the Guard action
(Keeping the yojimbo theme going, although this mgiht be overkill)

I'd like to do more with their connection with the Brotherhood but I'm not sure how to do it. Anyway, this is my first draft.

# ¿ Apr 12, 2016 04:03

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Got some feedback on the Raven bushi from my friends and here's a second version for whatever that's worth.

Raven Bushi
+1 Stamina
Karasu Family +1 Willpower
Kenjutsu, Survival, Hunting, Defense, Athletics, Meditation, Any one skill
Rank 1 Way of the Raven
When using the Guard Maneuver, gain Reduction equal to Survival. Gain 1k0 bonus to social rolls with members of the Brotherhood of Shinsei.
Rank 2 Wisdom of the Road
When spending a Void Point while within 10 feet of a companion, you may give that companion the benefits of the effect you chose instead of gaining them for yourself. You are also considered as having Kharmic Tie (1) with any companion you have traveled with for more than a week. This tie is lost when you haven't traveled with the companion within the last week.
Rank 3 Flutter of Wings
May attack as a simple action with a daisho or when performing the Guard Action
Rank 4 Scavenger Bird
Wound penalties are only applied/updated at the reaction step each round
Rank 5 An Unkindness of Ravens
When you are using the Guard Action, gain a Void Point when the person you designated to Guard is hit by an attack.
(This incentivizes the opponent to hit the Yojimbo instead of his charge)

# ¿ Apr 13, 2016 17:58

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Hmm, so either spend a VP to make an attack target you or to attack as a free action someone who is going to attack your charge?

Edit: bonus Karasu Ancestor
(10) Gain 1k0 to all school skill rolls when on the road, will leave you if a charge under your care OR a monk of the brotherhood in your presence dies when you could have saved them.

MonsieurChoc fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Apr 13, 2016

# ¿ Apr 13, 2016 18:46

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

wargames posted:

There are some good ronin 2s, master of games into scales of the carp you can easily get 10k7 tempation with only 3 skill in tempations, kenburo's way is awesome as hell. some are just bad yes but its a mixed bag. Sun tao advance is pretty cool. Worse thing about minor clans is kata restrictions, and badger not getting heavy weapons.

also have suzume 3 work like tamagoto's legion.

Master of Games is my favorite ronin path since it was introduced back during 3E. It's good, but suffers from mechanically having nothing to do with it's fluff.

# ¿ May 15, 2016 19:11

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Interesting. Any way to get in on the ground floor, so to speak? How did the previous 2 work exactly?

# ¿ Aug 5, 2016 19:49

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 03:37

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

NinjaDebugger posted:

Yes. It's an old style living campaign, so all you need is a group, and you can play online, games are often organized on the forums.

The campaign will start at the Midwest game fest in November, and I'll post more details when I'm back from gencon.

Long story short, it'll be the same world as the third campaign, the first true sequel, two hundred years later, so we can see the fallout of some of the poo poo our pcs got up to. Everything is designed to be noob friendly, so don't feel like you had to be a player to join.

Oh, and it seems like they're going to keep assigning xp to players rather than characters, so if you die, you don't lose everything.

I'm gonna see if I can't rope someone into running it. Or maybe rotate game master duties. I'd do it myself but I've got a pretty filled schedule and as such will probably miss quite a few games.

# ¿ Aug 7, 2016 04:46

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > L5R 4th Edition - Well... WotC did it first!