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Aericina
Mar 3, 2005

Meez, please.

WFTDA just announced the Big 5 Tournament dates and locations for next year. Guess who's hosting the NC tournament? (!!!)

http://wftda.com/news/2011-touranment-schedule-released

Love the misspelled URL.

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Ria
Sep 21, 2003

You have an overpowering GENOCIDE COMPLEX, and have made it your sworn duty to KILL ALL LAND DWELLERS.



Apropos to this discussion can I tell you how much I love the fact that Sin City Skates' website, under the wheels, says

Sin City Skates posted:

By the way, "durometer" is sort of bullshit. Read up on it.
I love that they don't pull any punches, even if it's on a professional sales site.

So, I'll also posit this question to you guys. I got some R3s a while back, and tightened the front trucks on each of the skates so tight that the bushings are now squishing, and I cannot loosen the trucks anymore (i.e. When I turn the nut, the bolt moves with it, meaning that the bolt has stripped the interior of the nylon plate where it attaches).

Should I even bother trying to take it apart to get at the bushings, or should I just chalk it up to stupidity, get a better pair of skates (ones that hold a 250+ lb. person better) and don't do that again?

Aericina
Mar 3, 2005

Meez, please.

Those nylon plates will get you every time. You can't really expect any skate that has nylon plates (usually on the lower end of the spectrum) really hold up to more than hobbyist skating, if there is such a thing. That being said, bushings have always been a pain in the rear end for me as well. The bushings on my aluminum plated 265s are so non-squishy that I can barely keep the trucks on.

Ria
Sep 21, 2003

You have an overpowering GENOCIDE COMPLEX, and have made it your sworn duty to KILL ALL LAND DWELLERS.



Aericina posted:

Those nylon plates will get you every time. You can't really expect any skate that has nylon plates (usually on the lower end of the spectrum) really hold up to more than hobbyist skating, if there is such a thing. That being said, bushings have always been a pain in the rear end for me as well. The bushings on my aluminum plated 265s are so non-squishy that I can barely keep the trucks on.

So, I guess AL-YEW-MIN-EE-UM is probably better, eh? Would something like http://sincityskates.com/2nd/rebel.html (the second or third, ~$239 ones, with the aluminum plates) be good? I'm planning on doing a lot of skate-reffing instead of NSOing and theorycrafting next season.

scorpiobean
Dec 22, 2004

I'll have one sugar coma drink, please.

Aericina posted:

Those nylon plates will get you every time. You can't really expect any skate that has nylon plates (usually on the lower end of the spectrum) really hold up to more than hobbyist skating, if there is such a thing. That being said, bushings have always been a pain in the rear end for me as well. The bushings on my aluminum plated 265s are so non-squishy that I can barely keep the trucks on.

Yeah all my teammates were telling me that I desperately needed to get skates with metal plates as I've outgrown my R3s in terms of skill. I actually just got the 265s with the Revenge plates which I'm incredibly excited about.

Redfont it looks like you got all sorts of opinions on wheels which is awesome! I was going to say that it also really depends on what kind of floor you're skating on (which Aericina was mentioning), but if you are like me when I started, and had never skated at all before, I'd say wider squishier wheels might be better for learning. I started out on the blue fugitives with the orange pusher wheels which was okay on our polished concrete floor and those are pretty wide wheels. Right now I'm digging the Heartless wheels which are much much narrower. I have entirely the bright green Creepers right now which are a little stickier and then I got some of the red and yellow Creepers (don't remember the actual numbers right now but harder than the green ones) to mix and match with.

Edit: Ah the yellow are Heartless Chasers which are 92a and the red are the Breakers which are 94a.

Another skate shop my league really likes is Five Stride Skate Shop which opened relatively recently and is run by OMG and Bonnie Thunders from Gotham. They're also really nice and helpful about finding things that are right for you and they obviously also know their stuff. They really helped me in finding the right kind of skate boot and at the very least, it's another site you can browse through and look for stuff.

scorpiobean fucked around with this message at Nov 9, 2010 around 18:45

Aericina
Mar 3, 2005

Meez, please.

Ria posted:

So, I guess AL-YEW-MIN-EE-UM is probably better, eh? Would something like http://sincityskates.com/2nd/rebel.html (the second or third, ~$239 ones, with the aluminum plates) be good? I'm planning on doing a lot of skate-reffing instead of NSOing and theorycrafting next season.

Something about that jump bar really bugs me about those plates. I wish I could see the underside of the boot with the plate attached. But yes I would go with aluminum plates. I started reffing with the Rebels with nylon plates. While they were okay for OPR, I could tell right away that they sucked for jammer reffing. There's a lot more movement in that position than anywhere else.

I also want to reiterate about the Rebel's toe stop problem and the fact that the pulltab on the left boot has detached from pulling it on my feet so much. The Rebels are now my outside skates on running trails and man I almost hate going back to them from my Wickeds.

Aericina fucked around with this message at Nov 9, 2010 around 18:44

Redfont
Feb 9, 2010

Little Mac(kerel)

Woo! Thanks for all the information. I'm still going over everything, making sure everything is in order and whatnot and trying to decide what would be best. Do you think it would be best to bump up from the R3s to a pair of Rebel Fugitives, then? I do like Sin City Skates from what I've seen so far, but I may or may not be stuck with this first site (which isn't so bad I guess), depending on when I can talk to my sister next, who offered to get a gift certificate for me for my birthday.

But anyway, alright, I'm thinking the wide wheels will do good, do you think I should go with 93A or skip down to an 88A? I feel like I don't want them to be TOO soft, but I don't want a set of wheels that I'm going to break my face on, either.

Other than that, depending on what sort of swag I can get from my family, I'll more than likely either go with the R3s or the Fugitives. Apparently both of the plates are plastic which is but I can live with that, I don't think it will be a big deal for me at the get-go anyway. If I can somehow manage to get a whole bunch from them, I'd love to get some Riedell Vandals with the 265 boots, they look slick as hell.

EDIT: Also the whole different components thing is kind of for me, I'm used to everything being one thing, I'm not sure if I should be referring to the skates by what the boot are or what something else is or what, I'm just sort of going off of what the names the sites give me, haha.

Thanks, I really wasn't sure, and I didn't want to be using the wrong names or something.
\/\/\/

Redfont fucked around with this message at Nov 9, 2010 around 21:33

Ria
Sep 21, 2003

You have an overpowering GENOCIDE COMPLEX, and have made it your sworn duty to KILL ALL LAND DWELLERS.



Redfont posted:

Woo! Thanks for all the information. I'm still going over everything, making sure everything is in order and whatnot and trying to decide what would be best. Do you think it would be best to bump up from the R3s to a pair of Rebel Fugitives, then? I do like Sin City Skates from what I've seen so far, but I may or may not be stuck with this first site (which isn't so bad I guess), depending on when I can talk to my sister next, who offered to get a gift certificate for me for my birthday.

But anyway, alright, I'm thinking the wide wheels will do good, do you think I should go with 93A or skip down to an 88A? I feel like I don't want them to be TOO soft, but I don't want a set of wheels that I'm going to break my face on, either.

Other than that, depending on what sort of swag I can get from my family, I'll more than likely either go with the R3s or the Fugitives. Apparently both of the plates are plastic which is but I can live with that, I don't think it will be a big deal for me at the get-go anyway. If I can somehow manage to get a whole bunch from them, I'd love to get some Riedell Vandals with the 265 boots, they look slick as hell.

EDIT: Also the whole different components thing is kind of for me, I'm used to everything being one thing, I'm not sure if I should be referring to the skates by what the boot are or what something else is or what, I'm just sort of going off of what the names the sites give me, haha.

As far as I can tell, there are prepackaged skates that have names that have this plate or this boot and are generally the same thing (usually with one or two exceptions, that are then named). Unless you get a completely custom set of skates, using those names won't confuse many people that are in the know.

(Please correct me if otherwise)

And thanks, Scorpio, for letting us know about the Five Stride shop, it looks awesome. I'm now desiring the SheDevils that they carry. Anyone got knowledge on the powerdyne plates and riedell 126 boots, or the SheDevils themselves?

Redfont
Feb 9, 2010

Little Mac(kerel)

drat it, if I still lived in Illinois I could have gone to that Indianapolis game. That would have been pretty balls out, to go to a big one and see some pro-fessionals tear it up.

WindyMan
Mar 21, 2002

Respect the power of the wind

First post updated, please check them out.

Chicago, you guys are lucky bastards.



Click here for the full 600x900 image.

JoshTheStampede
Sep 8, 2004

come at me bro


The "Slow Derby Sucks" people at Nationals were hilarious. And by hilarious I mean hilariously wrong and not even internally consistent. But they had a literal manifesto they were handing out. And a bad website.

Totally TWISTED
Sep 13, 2005

Also, angels.




WindyMan posted:

All things considered, DNN is doing great when you realize they're trying to do all of this on a shoestring donation budget. DNN isn't happy with the problems and is looking on a way to improve on things for next season.
I agree with you. I'm looking at it from the perspective of "how can this sport be grown?" and I think a great way for that to occur is having high quality online streaming of at least the big events like Regionals/Nationals so I hope, and anticipate, that every season this aspect will improve.

Now I'm thinking/dreaming of having a espn/hulu/youtube site level of streaming, and streaming 480-720p.

JoshTheStampede
Sep 8, 2004

come at me bro


Totally TWISTED posted:

I agree with you. I'm looking at it from the perspective of "how can this sport be grown?" and I think a great way for that to occur is having high quality online streaming of at least the big events like Regionals/Nationals so I hope, and anticipate, that every season this aspect will improve.

Now I'm thinking/dreaming of having a espn/hulu/youtube site level of streaming, and streaming 480-720p.

The paid streaming for Westerns was amazingly high quality. The free version was good and very watchable, but the paid one was high enough quality that we streamed it to our HDTV and it was indistinguishable from real TV. Could read names on jerseys and stuff, which I usually can't do when I watch DNN/Justin.tv streams.

WindyMan
Mar 21, 2002

Respect the power of the wind

Dominion posted:

The "Slow Derby Sucks" people at Nationals were hilarious. And by hilarious I mean hilariously wrong and not even internally consistent. But they had a literal manifesto they were handing out. And a bad website.

"Slow derby" doesn't suck. It's not doing a goddamn thing for a minute after the start whistle. The Gotham/Philly 3rd place game, with those three jams when nothing happened for 30sec~1min is exactly the evidence the "slow derby sucks" people need to start making a case for that sort of nonsense to get thrown out of the game. I see two major things wrong with it:

1) Penalties don't really penalize a team, and in fact, can give the penalized team an advantage in certain circumstances. If Team A has a 4-2 pack advantage over Team B, logic and strategy should point to Team A having pack dominance over Team B. Problem is, if Team A wants to control the rear of the pack at the start, there's nothing they can do if Team B doesn't leave the line on account of wanting to burn off as much penalty time as they can for their penalized blockers. Team A doesn't want to leave the line right away because then Team B will get the rear of the pack, which both teams perceived as an advantage at that point. This therefore gave pack control to the shorthanded Team B, which logically makes no sense whatsoever. On top of that, Team B's penalized skaters don't really give Team A an advantage in any way, shape or form in this situation.

Sure, Team A could have just skated out to start the jam and forced no pack, then skate back to retake the rear. They could have taken a knee at the beginning to force a jam start, and then do the same. (Either way, there's no guarantee Team A would get the pack control they want, but by all rights should have by default.) But my point is that the current rules are not robust enough to account for scenarios like this, and the fact like something like this can legally happen at all should be considered for future rules revisions. If you're in the penalty box, you should be giving your team a disadvantage at all times, just like in any other legitimate sport.

2) Consider this from the perspective of the average joe. Yes, you're a roller derby fan, and you're going to like roller derby no matter what. But what if you were not a derby fan, heard about this derby thing on the news, paid money to see top-tier roller derby, and saw several minutes of nothing happening during a game? Is that really entertaining to people? Is that entertaining enough for major sports networks to put money into it, or big-name sponsors to brand their name on it?

All sports have evolved over the decades to make them more entertaining for the paying customers. Football, remember, didn't have forward passing a long time ago. Ever since that was introduced, rules were subsequently relaxed to give offensive receivers more freedom and make bigger, more entertaining plays feasible. Basketball didn't use to have a shot clock, so teams would just hold the ball and do nothing to keep leads. Fans didn't like that, so the NBA made people do something with the ball or lose possession. Now there's constant action in basketball. Roller derby—at least, flat track roller derby—is likely going to go through a similar transition to make sure it's more accessible and entertaining to the average person, and not just roller derby fans.

And just so I head this off at the pass, "strategy" has nothing to do with this. Strategy just means a team is using the tools at their disposal to best take advantage of the rules in their favor. Thing is, that's the same for everyone, and if the rules are changed, it effects everyone equally. It's not the teams' fault that people call them out for playing "slow." They're just doing the best they can. Maybe it's better to call out the rules and see about maybe tweaking them in everyone's best interests.

JoshTheStampede
Sep 8, 2004

come at me bro


I can see that no-starts and taking a knee are sort of lame. But here's why I disagree with the Slow Derby Sucks people:

1. They bitch about taking a knee to start a jam. That's not slow. It actually SPEEDS UP the game by being the complete opposite of a no-start. You can't really hate both of those things.

2. During the Rocky-Charm game, these people were very loudly cheering for Charm against Rocky, because they hate slow derby. Except, Rocky doesn't play slow derby; Denver does. Charm City however, is probably the 2nd most notorious slow-derby team around. So these people don't even follow derby enough to know what teams actually play the style of game they claim to hate, even while WATCHING a game. If they can't watch a game and point to which team is playing slow derby, how the hell can they profess to hate it so much?

You mentioned football as an example, but no one has a problem with kneeling the ball to run out clock in football. That's basically what a no-start is: Drawing out the play to run down clock. I really fail to see the difference.

Totally TWISTED
Sep 13, 2005

Also, angels.




Dominion posted:

The paid streaming for Westerns was amazingly high quality. The free version was good and very watchable, but the paid one was high enough quality that we streamed it to our HDTV and it was indistinguishable from real TV. Could read names on jerseys and stuff, which I usually can't do when I watch DNN/Justin.tv streams.
That's awesome to hear, I wasn't personally aware of it as I really only intensely follow Nashville currently. I wish Nationals had a paid streaming option and thinking about it a paid/free split on stream quality is a really good solution at least presently. I actually was thinking during the weekend that I would have paid say $5 day/$10 weekend to stream the action in higher quality but then I totally forgot to post about it.

WindyMan posted:


Bravo to this post.

Dominion in the "kneeling" example you give for football you're missing what I think are some key points. To run out the clock you have to:
A- Have possession.
B- Give up a play (one of the four you're allowed in a series)
C- Give up about a yard (not a big deal but included for completeness)

in exchange you get to:
A- bleed off clock time / force your opponent to call a time out

In derby, as WindyMan said in his post the (theoretically) weaker team in numbers available (due to penalties) can negate at large portion of the penalty time being served by their teammates through inaction. So it doesn't seem fair from a penalty standpoint and from a (casual?) fan standpoint it's boring.

I'm all for teams playing within the rules but as WindyMan said, change the rules.

JoshTheStampede
Sep 8, 2004

come at me bro


Totally TWISTED posted:

I'm all for teams playing within the rules but as WindyMan said, change the rules.

Yeah, I'm sure that both those rules (no-start and taking a knee) will get changed in the next few months at the latest. I don't have a problem with them but a lot of people do.

It's fine to dislike those rules, but that's not all that goes into Slow Derby. A bunch of people literally do not like any playstyle that involves a slower pack, or manipulating the speed and movement of that pack, or god forbid sometimes skating clockwise. They want girls just skating fast and turning left, and to me THAT'S the boring style. You can't see any real tactics going on because everything is going to fast, and it's just a race. It's the old Runaway Pussy strategy, which they made up the destroying the pack penalty specifically to eliminate.

Totally TWISTED
Sep 13, 2005

Also, angels.




Dominion posted:

Yeah, I'm sure that both those rules (no-start and taking a knee) will get changed in the next few months at the latest. I don't have a problem with them but a lot of people do.

It's fine to dislike those rules, but that's not all that goes into Slow Derby. A bunch of people literally do not like any playstyle that involves a slower pack, or manipulating the speed and movement of that pack, or god forbid sometimes skating clockwise. They want girls just skating fast and turning left, and to me THAT'S the boring style. You can't see any real tactics going on because everything is going to fast, and it's just a race. It's the old Runaway Pussy strategy, which they made up the destroying the pack penalty specifically to eliminate.
I agree with you that disliking the entirety of slow derby/anything other than fast/turn left is stupid and those people are stupid.

I feel like I'm some sorta Agree-Machine tonight.

Related to all of this, can I say that I love the civility this thread has in it's discussions?

WindyMan
Mar 21, 2002

Respect the power of the wind

Dominion posted:

Yeah, I'm sure that both those rules (no-start and taking a knee) will get changed in the next few months at the latest. I don't have a problem with them but a lot of people do.

It's fine to dislike those rules, but that's not all that goes into Slow Derby. A bunch of people literally do not like any playstyle that involves a slower pack, or manipulating the speed and movement of that pack, or god forbid sometimes skating clockwise. They want girls just skating fast and turning left, and to me THAT'S the boring style. You can't see any real tactics going on because everything is going to fast, and it's just a race. It's the old Runaway Pussy strategy, which they made up the destroying the pack penalty specifically to eliminate.

I don't have a problem with the taking a knee start, insofar as much as it actually forces a start and speeds the game up, like you said. However, that doesn't change the fact that teams find it necessary to do this in the first place, due to how the rules are drawn up. People shouldn't be criticizing the players or teams that do this, but instead should be criticizing the rules that cause the need for them to do it.

However, there is a difference between "slow" derby and "not moving" derby. If a team can manage to slow a pack to a crawl, then that team is showing pack dominance and is playing well. What's really at issue, what "slow" derby opponents are probably actually criticizing, is when the skaters stop moving altogether. Or worse, start skating backwards. It's ugly to watch, confusing as hell to an uneducated outside observer. Would it be so difficult to just mandate that skaters are attempting to move forward at all times? You don't need to make them skate fast, you just need to make them skate, period. Skating, after all, implies forward motion by its definition. This would also eliminate the need to do the no-pack start since skaters wouldn't be permitted to burn clock by not moving.

Traditional roller derby has never, ever, ever allowed stopping on the track during a jam. Skaters have always been made to move forward at all times. There are times they've moved really fast, and there are times they've moved really slow. But they've always been moving. And they've never moved backwards, either. Like I've previously said (I think) I don't know why being on a flat track somehow makes it logical to allow stopping and backwards skating when it was never a part of derby in the first place.

JoshTheStampede
Sep 8, 2004

come at me bro


WindyMan posted:

I don't have a problem with the taking a knee start, insofar as much as it actually forces a start and speeds the game up, like you said. However, that doesn't change the fact that teams find it necessary to do this in the first place, due to how the rules are drawn up. People shouldn't be criticizing the players or teams that do this, but instead should be criticizing the rules that cause the need for them to do it.

However, there is a difference between "slow" derby and "not moving" derby. If a team can manage to slow a pack to a crawl, then that team is showing pack dominance and is playing well. What's really at issue, what "slow" derby opponents are probably actually criticizing, is when the skaters stop moving altogether. Or worse, start skating backwards. It's ugly to watch, confusing as hell to an uneducated outside observer. Would it be so difficult to just mandate that skaters are attempting to move forward at all times? You don't need to make them skate fast, you just need to make them skate, period. Skating, after all, implies forward motion by its definition. This would also eliminate the need to do the no-pack start since skaters wouldn't be permitted to burn clock by not moving.

Traditional roller derby has never, ever, ever allowed stopping on the track during a jam. Skaters have always been made to move forward at all times. There are times they've moved really fast, and there are times they've moved really slow. But they've always been moving. And they've never moved backwards, either. Like I've previously said (I think) I don't know why being on a flat track somehow makes it logical to allow stopping and backwards skating when it was never a part of derby in the first place.

I guess we just disagree then. I have no problem at all with clockwise skating within the current rules. You can't block from a standstill or while moving clockwise, so that's a pretty big restriction. I don't think it's ugly at all, and it being confusing to an uninformed outsider doesn't bother me at all. If they like derby they can learn the rules and then they won't be an outside anymore.

Denver came to play Charm this season and the first half of that game was some of the most mindblowing and enlightening derby strategy I've ever seen. It was amazing, and taking that layer out of the sport would be a shame in my opinion.

For what it's worth, though, yes, it would be difficult to mandate that you always have to move forward. Would it apply if you were out of play? All the time people get blocked out and have to skate backwards a little while out of bounds to avoid cutting track.

WindyMan
Mar 21, 2002

Respect the power of the wind

Dominion posted:

I guess we just disagree then. I have no problem at all with clockwise skating within the current rules. You can't block from a standstill or while moving clockwise, so that's a pretty big restriction. I don't think it's ugly at all, and it being confusing to an uninformed outsider doesn't bother me at all. If they like derby they can learn the rules and then they won't be an outside anymore.

That's fine, but if too many share that mentality the sport's growth will be restricted. You can't make the assumption that the population at large will want to learn anything more than the basics of derby, because if the basics are too complicated then they'll just move on to something else.

Dominion posted:

For what it's worth, though, yes, it would be difficult to mandate that you always have to move forward. Would it apply if you were out of play? All the time people get blocked out and have to skate backwards a little while out of bounds to avoid cutting track.

I should have been more clear about that: Skating forward only while in play. In banked track (aka traditional) rules if you're out of play too far forward, you need to stop and wait for the pack (which is always moving forward) to catch back up to you.

Conveniently, that would also eliminate skaters stopping and then back-tracking to trap a jammer who got pushed out, which I absolutely hate. The spirit of the rule has always been for the player getting pushed out of bounds to not gain a positional advantage when re-entering the track. At least with how I interpret the rules, if a blocker skates backwards to prevent a jammer from coming back in from the same point on the track she left, that should be a backwards block; Rule 5 states that a block need not include contact if said block is positional.

The same rules say it is illegal to block while at a standstill, yet players and teams get way with that all the time. Again, the WFTDA's own ruleset says you don't need to contact someone to be blocking them; if you're in their way, it's a block. Is it not?

JoshTheStampede
Sep 8, 2004

come at me bro


WindyMan posted:

That's fine, but if too many share that mentality the sport's growth will be restricted. You can't make the assumption that the population at large will want to learn anything more than the basics of derby, because if the basics are too complicated then they'll just move on to something else.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. If you're saying that we should make the game as simple as possible so that more people can follow it without learning anything about it, then I disagree strongly. I like rulesets that allow for strategic depth and a variety of valid styles and tactics. It should not be that speed is the only way to win.

quote:

I should have been more clear about that: Skating forward only while in play. In banked track (aka traditional) rules if you're out of play too far forward, you need to stop and wait for the pack (which is always moving forward) to catch back up to you.

Conveniently, that would also eliminate skaters stopping and then back-tracking to trap a jammer who got pushed out, which I absolutely hate. The spirit of the rule has always been for the player getting pushed out of bounds to not gain a positional advantage when re-entering the track. At least with how I interpret the rules, if a blocker skates backwards to prevent a jammer from coming back in from the same point on the track she left, that should be a backwards block; Rule 5 states that a block need not include contact if said block is positional.

The same rules say it is illegal to block while at a standstill, yet players and teams get way with that all the time. Again, the WFTDA's own ruleset says you don't need to contact someone to be blocking them; if you're in their way, it's a block. Is it not?

No, because being in someone's way is not the same at all as being in a position where they aren't allowed to come in ahead of you. That's never been included in the definition of a block, though you are correct that blocks don't have to include contact. You don't have to hit them, but you do have to be physically in their way. As in, if they moved forward, they would run into you, as you are blocking their path.

Skating backwards to prevent a blocked-out jammer from coming in ahead of you is not a positional block, because you are not physically in the way of their progress. They're free to come in ahead of you - in fact in many cases it's a better idea to just skate in and take the minor cut call than to backtrack.

Though, for what it's worth, there were a bunch of standstill-block and clockwise-block penalties called at Nationals, though admittedly only when there was contact. Yes, it should get called even when there isn't, but that goes back to my earlier point about the rules not being possible to enforce by any mortal ref crew. Just the cutting track rules alone are complex enough that no ref can actually follow them so only the most flagrantly visible ones get called.

WindyMan
Mar 21, 2002

Respect the power of the wind

Dominion posted:

I like rulesets that allow for strategic depth and a variety of valid styles and tactics. It should not be that speed is the only way to win.

WindyMan posted:

And just so I head this off at the pass, "strategy" has nothing to do with this. Strategy just means a team is using the tools at their disposal to best take advantage of the rules in their favor. Thing is, that's the same for everyone, and if the rules are changed, it effects everyone equally. It's not the teams' fault that people call them out for playing "slow." They're just doing the best they can. Maybe it's better to call out the rules and see about maybe tweaking them in everyone's best interests.

In other words, any ruleset will call for strategic depth and a variety of valid styles and tactics. That argument is invalid.

JoshTheStampede
Sep 8, 2004

come at me bro


WindyMan posted:

In other words, any ruleset will call for strategic depth and a variety of valid styles and tactics. That argument is invalid.

Well, I disagree on that point too. Different rulesets can very much vary in level of available depth. Saying that any ruleset will have an equally large array of valid strategies within it is, in my opinion, simply false.

Chess has more numerous and varied available strategies than checkers. Poker has more available strategies than blackjack. Just because everyone is playing the same rules does not make two different rulesets equal in terms of complexity or balance.

We could probably make derby so simple anyone could pick up on it in minutes. We would do that by eliminating tactics that are currently legal, and when you reduce the number of things a player can do, you reduce the number of effective strategies that a player or team can choose from. We would also have to make track cutting easier to follow and understand, get some sort of agreement on the backblock/lowblock distinction (which was a huge problem at nationals), and several other things, if we were concerned with the Bar Crowd Test.

I really really liked that at Nationals, I got to watch Rocky, Oly, Gotham, Charm, Philly, and several other teams, all of which had very very different strategies and playstyles. Eliminating things like clockwise skating, slow packs, the ability to stop, etc, would eliminate several of those playstyles as real options.

JoshTheStampede
Sep 8, 2004

come at me bro


Aericina posted:

WFTDA just announced the Big 5 Tournament dates and locations for next year. Guess who's hosting the NC tournament? (!!!)

http://wftda.com/news/2011-touranment-schedule-released

Love the misspelled URL.

Also I meant to comment on this earlier, but I am super psyched about Easterns being in Baltimore.

huplescat
Jun 8, 2005


Aericina posted:

Redfont - I know you were looking at beginner packages and someone had suggested the Sure Grip Rebels. My first beginner skates were Rebels. They were ok, but holy poo poo the toe stops would not stay in the sockets. Anytime anyone lost a toe stop you can be 95% sure it came from a Sure Grip. That aside, the skate seemed to be alright for a beginner but I was ready to upgrade after 6 months.

That drat toe stop jingle still haunts me

I really liked my Rebels, but heaps of girls I know had trouble with thinner (note, not thin, just thinner) laces ripping the top 2 rubber eyelets. It didn't make them unusable but drat it was annoying. I lost mine in a housefire a couple of months ago and upgraded to Reidell 265's (Wickeds). No regrets, my god, no regrets. The Rebels are ace to learn on as they're ridiculously comfortable and very forgiving, but if I'd known how different the Reidells were in terms of performance and had had the money I would have started on them.

quote:

I suggest you again check out Sin City Skates.

Seconding this. We do heaps of group orders through these guys and they do a great job getting it right and getting it out fast. Although the prices you guys pay for skate gear makes me cry AUD$630 for my 265's here, US$399 through SinCity and we're almost parity


I'd hold off on mucking with wheels till you know what kinda floor you'll be skating on and what works for others with a similar build to yourself. I was going to get harder ones as my new skates came with narrow 88a's, but drat I'm glad I held off as I'm now on Sugars due to the crazy slippery floor of our new venue. 93a and wide is probably a really good starting point while you're learning if that's what the skates come with.

Spookydonut
Sep 13, 2010

"Hello alien thoughtbeasts! We murder children!"
~our children?~
"Not recently, no!"
~we cool bro~

Ref from WARD (Western Australian Roller Derby, not Washington) here, been in derby a year now and it's really taken over my life.

On the topic of skates I've been using my GT-50s without any issues for a year now, though I am using slightly better wheels and bearings and swapped out the plastic truck cushions for rubber ones. Apparently I'm in a tiny minority of people who've had no problems with their GT-50s.

Back in June I went to our first national level competition and got to party with Dump Truck, that man is a blast.

Redfont
Feb 9, 2010

Little Mac(kerel)

Spookydonut posted:

Ref from WARD (Western Australian Roller Derby, not Washington) here, been in derby a year now and it's really taken over my life.

On the topic of skates I've been using my GT-50s without any issues for a year now, though I am using slightly better wheels and bearings and swapped out the plastic truck cushions for rubber ones. Apparently I'm in a tiny minority of people who've had no problems with their GT-50s.

Back in June I went to our first national level competition and got to party with Dump Truck, that man is a blast.

Popping back in to report that I ended up getting the R3s, and I'm actually really quite pleased with them. They're pretty comfortable. I did end up finding my Bones bearings, but then I realized I only had 8 of them so I just sort of halved them with another pair of on-par bearings that I had. Dramatic increase in the performance of the skates! I'm really enjoying them, though I haven't had a chance to take them to a rink to test out yet.

Anyway to get around to replying to the quote, how'd you do at the competition? Also I'm glad your skates are working out in the face of being expected otherwise!

Spookydonut
Sep 13, 2010

"Hello alien thoughtbeasts! We murder children!"
~our children?~
"Not recently, no!"
~we cool bro~

Redfont posted:

Popping back in to report that I ended up getting the R3s, and I'm actually really quite pleased with them. They're pretty comfortable. I did end up finding my Bones bearings, but then I realized I only had 8 of them so I just sort of halved them with another pair of on-par bearings that I had. Dramatic increase in the performance of the skates! I'm really enjoying them, though I haven't had a chance to take them to a rink to test out yet.

Anyway to get around to replying to the quote, how'd you do at the competition? Also I'm glad your skates are working out in the face of being expected otherwise!

I've heard and found that the quality of bearings really only affects how well you need to take care of them. Of course there are plenty of exceptions to this.

I got to ref 4 games, having only done 1 in the past. Also NSO'd a bunch more games.
Our team however lost both games to Sydney Roller Derby and Pirates (NZ somewhere). We were only 9 months or so old at that point, with a team made up of the players that could afford to travel.

Redfont
Feb 9, 2010

Little Mac(kerel)

Spookydonut posted:

I've heard and found that the quality of bearings really only affects how well you need to take care of them. Of course there are plenty of exceptions to this.

I got to ref 4 games, having only done 1 in the past. Also NSO'd a bunch more games.
Our team however lost both games to Sydney Roller Derby and Pirates (NZ somewhere). We were only 9 months or so old at that point, with a team made up of the players that could afford to travel.

Well, the bearings that came with them were really stiff. I'm sure they'll get better once they get broken in, but for now they're just really bleh. They made the roll much more smooth, in any case. Also, condolences for your losses, but awesome that you got to ref some games. I'm still interested in doing that, though I think I'd have to watch a few more first to get the hang of it.

These R3s are actually pretty comfortable. I finally got to take them out to a rink to test them out, and I was quite pleased with them, I didn't get any of the rub that I usually get from rental skates. It was a pleasant experience overall.

Spookydonut
Sep 13, 2010

"Hello alien thoughtbeasts! We murder children!"
~our children?~
"Not recently, no!"
~we cool bro~

Redfont posted:

Well, the bearings that came with them were really stiff. I'm sure they'll get better once they get broken in, but for now they're just really bleh. They made the roll much more smooth, in any case.

Some bearings come filled with packing grease. This is usually more common with skate packages that might be sitting around for a long time. The bearings won't spin freely until you clean out the grease with a brush and lubricate them.

The best thing you can do in terms of Reffing and NSOing is to jump in and do whatever you can. NSOing especially will really help you strengthen your understanding of the game and rules.

Redfont
Feb 9, 2010

Little Mac(kerel)

Spookydonut posted:

Some bearings come filled with packing grease. This is usually more common with skate packages that might be sitting around for a long time. The bearings won't spin freely until you clean out the grease with a brush and lubricate them.

The best thing you can do in terms of Reffing and NSOing is to jump in and do whatever you can. NSOing especially will really help you strengthen your understanding of the game and rules.

Ooooh. I guess that would make sense. What sort of brush, just any kind? I assume like a disposable toothbrush or something wouldn't hurt them in any way.

And that sounds like a doable idea. I'll probably be moving out to Wyoming before my local derby teams will be doing any more matches but hopefully there are some more opportunities out west.

Mega Shark
Oct 4, 2004


So, my wife is just about done with her recruitment phase of the Orlando Psycho City Derby Girls league and needs better pads and wheels.

She sent me some links and I'm going to get what she wants, but I have a question specifically about wheels. She wants Radar Flat Out wheels in Red or Light Blue ala: http://sincityskates.com/2nd/wheels/r-flatout.html

First of all I've done quite a bit of searching and they always appear to be $59 regardless of where I look. That being said, they all seem to charge a minimum of $12 in shipping as well.

Does anyone have sources where I can get these for less or at a discount? Second, do I also need to buy her bearings? She hasn't said anything about it, but I'd had to buy her new wheels and she can't use them. If she needs bearings, can you tell me what kind would work, maybe with a link?

WindyMan
Mar 21, 2002

Respect the power of the wind

Bump to remind everyone about a few banked track goings-on this weekend and beyond...

Tomorrow (Saturday) night is the LA Derby Dolls championship game. Please see the first post for details on its epicness. You can watch the game via DNN or directly from the Derby Dolls website. Feed starts at 7:30p PT/10:30p ET, and the game itself is at 8p PT/11p ET.

Also, Tilted Thunder up in Seattle will be having their very first banked track game at the same time. Hooray for them! They'll be coming down to play one of LA's local teams, the Sirens, next September. I've heard that there will not be live video of this game, but that some may be made available at a later date. Here's hoping!

Also coming to LA next season is Gotham Girls Roller Derby. Yessiree, February 26 will be the LA Derby Dolls vs. Gotham on the banked track. Ho-lee-poo poo, that's going to be sweet. As well, Rocky Mountain is tentatively scheduled to come down in March, but I'm not sure if that's actually set in stone. I hope it is, because DeRanged is even more so when skating banked. No kidding.

SRM
Jul 10, 2009

I'd have been really upset if no one had a hot plastic groin as their avatar.



My aspiring rollergirl is looking for derby names - anybody have any good unused ones or any sites that would be good resources for em?

JoshTheStampede
Sep 8, 2004

come at me bro


SRM posted:

My aspiring rollergirl is looking for derby names - anybody have any good unused ones or any sites that would be good resources for em?

Well, the name registry is here: http://www.twoevils.org/rollergirls/

That's sort of the opposite of what you asked for: It's all the names that ARE taken, but you can get a good idea for what sorts of things are likely gone and can use it to brainstorm from there.

Aericina
Mar 3, 2005

Meez, please.

This past Saturday saw the rematch of the Chicago Outfit vs. Naptown Roller Girls. Chicago Outfit's Syndicate's failure to dominate with the take-a-knee no pack jam start:

http://www.justin.tv/naptownrollergirls/b/275143885

There was a lot of slow derby/not passing the pack line and at one point the crowd booed. Once one of the Naptown boxed skaters joined the pack, everyone cheered. You can't please them all.

WindyMan
Mar 21, 2002

Respect the power of the wind

New DNN Power Rankings are out. I updated the first post with them.

Aericina posted:

There was a lot of slow derby/not passing the pack line and at one point the crowd booed. Once one of the Naptown boxed skaters joined the pack, everyone cheered. You can't please them all.

Shockingly, there were also quite a few "slow" starts during the LA Derby Dolls game. This is extremely odd for banked track derby, since there's really no benefit to stalling. The jam timer doesn't start in banked rules until the jammer whistle, and there's no penalty time to burn off. Plus, banked rules have a "start box" for the pack (everyone starts behind the pivot line and in front of the rear pack start line five feet away) so there's not much positioning to be done. People were booing, obviously.

The only reason I could figure out why they did it was to keep down the rolling distance/closing speed between the jammers and the rear of the pack. Seems like a small advantage to want to have, but during a championship scenario, when every point counts and when rule sets are really tested, whatever you can do to squeeze out an advantage will be exploited.

I don't agree with everything people hate about the so-called slow derby, but hating non-starts and inaction is one of the things I do agree with them on. There will come a point when the people harping "strategy" in slow derby will realize that unless rulebooks are written more robustly to account for these extreme situations you're going to lose the entertainment value from the persepective of the paying crowd. In other words, if it's turning people off from wanting to watch derby, is it ultimately worth it for derby's long-term health and potential?

WindyMan fucked around with this message at Dec 6, 2010 around 20:46

JoshTheStampede
Sep 8, 2004

come at me bro


WindyMan posted:



I don't agree with everything people hate about the so-called slow derby, but non-starts and inaction is one of them. There will come a point when the people harping "strategy" in slow derby will realize that unless rulebooks are written more robustly to account for these extreme situations you're going to lose the entertainment value from the persepective of the paying crowd. In other words, if it's turning people off from wanting to watch derby, is it ultimately worth it for derby's long-term health and potential?

I'm fine with non-starts when the goal is to burn some clock to kill a penalty or whatever, but a lot of teams seem to do it for no reason.

Even at Nationals, where I expect the highest caliber of strategy and understanding of the game, there were some instances of it where there was no logical reason to burn clock or slow the pack down, people were just doing it because they could, it looked like. It seemed like the real understanding of when you should non-start and when you should kneel-start and when you should just loving start just really hadn't sunk into everyone's mental game yet.

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JoshTheStampede
Sep 8, 2004

come at me bro


Oh, also, having watched Philly and Gotham play for a couple years now, the fact that Suzy Hotrod is leaving Gotham and playing for Philly will 100% cause those two teams to swap places, at least. Gotham may even drop another spot or two.

Philly is going to be really really hard to beat, since the one thing they were really missing was a dominant speed jammer, and Suzy is one of the best in the country.

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