Roller Derby Megathread II: Whip It Good!

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JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

downtimejesus posted:

Yeah, uh, that's pretty dumb, I agree. We(as dudes, for my league) basically have to pass the WFTDA minimum skills assessment and then we're good to go bout and get hosed up by the best teams in the nation. But then again, we're in a really small market (Rome/Utica NY, where's that?) and have 14-ish guys who play, so it's not like we can do any of that star stuff and come out with a travel team on the other side. poo poo, we don't even have a 14 person roster when we play, its usually like, 9-12 people.

Yeah. I think CCRG really just grew too fast without a plan for it. The core of the travel team is girls who founded the league, have been skating together for 5+ years, and are damned good. They started out just like the new girls though, drawn by the fun and the culture, and they seem to have lost sight of that. I don't think they are consciously loving everyone over, but I don't think they ever planned to have 100 girls interested.

# ¿ Jun 23, 2011 20:06

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 19:17

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

WindyMan posted:

What do you guys think of this? I'll just present it without comment.

I don't understand why BOTH teams would want to burn time.

# ¿ Jun 25, 2011 17:54

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

Mr. Powers posted:

So, maybe just removing minors without actually addressing the rest of the issues with the rules is a bad idea?

I think the no minors ruleset went very well. The situation that happened in charm-windy isn't a reason to scrap an otherwise better plan than what we have now.

# ¿ Jun 26, 2011 15:25

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

The loophole still existed before this this. It was just everyone got a minor instead of 1 person getting a major. It was arguably BETTER to do before.

# ¿ Jun 26, 2011 16:01

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

Mr. Powers posted:

I was just trying to say that simply removing minors and shuffling what were minors to major/no impact won't solve all the problems. It's really just a beta of what we have no, minus the minors. I'd be more interested in seeing beta tests of a comprehensive rules change that addresses a lot of the big complaints. I didn't really see a lot of complaining about minors from WFTDA-associated skaters, mostly from outside, but then again I wasn't looking.

It totally won't solve all the problems. But I don't think it was ever intended to. It was intended to remove some of the problems that minor penalties themselves have, like making the sport more complicated for fans, making it harder to officiate, creating a lot of intentional foul situations, etc. I'm of the opinion that if something is no-impact then why are you penalizing it? If it's bad enough to affect the game it's a major.

I think a shift to no-majors would be about as big a rules change all at once as I would ever expect an organization like WFTDA to make. I'm sure we could all come up with our greatest dream rules set, but it would never make it out of committee, so to speak.

Another tiny positive side effect of the no-minors that I noticed is that it eliminates the need to have a big whiteboard and someone using it in the inside track, which frees up a lot of space for refs to move around in there.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2011 00:58

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

Mr. Powers posted:

Taking another look at the no minors rule set, this really needs to be a rewrite of the penalties section rather than just some copy/paste movement. Also, the penalty for some things is inconsistent.

Assisting a skater while out of play, so long as it doesn't improve her relative position, is not penalized. The same with improvement of position is a major. This makes sense.

Assisting a skater while in play, but stepping or skating clockwise regardless of position improvement is a major (and part of the need for a rewrite is that this section is needlessly wordy, listing out individually both with and without improvement of position). You can't give much of an assist while moving in the opposite direction, but if you do, regardless of outcome, it's a major?

Additionally, I've seen what happens if you don't have outside coverage from the refs. The skaters know when they can push the boundaries of what's a penalty and what's not, and I guess that puts me in the "messier game" camp. I know a lot of the forearm and elbow penalties I give out during our bouts have become NI/NP. Those hits will be more frequent, but I guess we'll probably see more majors in those categories, since there's more opportunity for the illegal block to be successful.

I don't think anyone can make claims about safety being the reason for most of these penalties anymore (though, I didn't think that could really be claimed under the current rules, either).

I still plan to give this rule set a try, but I doubt I'll vote one way or another in the league or on RefCom. I don't care much about what the rules say as long as they're clear, and right now, they're really not. If they introduce a rule set that patches the wording issues and redundancies and incorporates all the current clarifications, I'd vote in favor, otherwise abstain.

The beta rules didn't even fix the High Block/Misconduct paradox. According to the penalties High Block and Misconduct, hitting someone with initial contact above the shoulders could be both. According to the standard procedures (appendix A), Misconduct calls should take precedence over illegal target zone penalties, so Misconduct should be called. In reality, High Block should be called.

I think the high block/misconduct thing is intended to be applied to like, punching someone in the face on purpose. That's clearly a misconduct, though by the letter of the rules it's a high block. It should be a misconduct though. That's just a ref judgement call.

Also, I have no problem at all with elbows and forearms that cause no impact not being penalties. They don't impact the game at all, so why should they be illegal? If you elbow someone or forearm them and it impacts the game, its a penalty. If not, it isn't.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2011 15:28

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

The no-start jams thing has finally reached it's zenith: During the Gotham-Philly game at ECDX, there was an entire 2-minute jam in which no one crossed the pivot line, and thus the jammers were never released.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2011 19:46

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

Ria posted:

I think it would be a lot different if (A) people were penalized for not moving at some point once the main whistle started, and/or (B) the Jammers were released at the same time as the pack.

Do we know why there's that separation? From what I've read of the MADE (just skimmed a few hours ago) and the OSDA (which I, admittedly, haven't read in a couple years), they both are released at the same time?

Well, technically, there already ARE rules against standing still - or rather, against blocking while stationary, including positional blocking. So you can't get in anyone's way unless you are moving forward or laterally. But that leaves a lot of room for people to shuffle around and jockey for position without the pack crossing the pivot line.

To your second question, yes, OSDA only has one whistle, and I haven't read the MADE rules.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2011 20:20

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

Ria posted:

Yeah, I mean, I know the direction of play stuff. That's fine. But that doesn't stop them from going "Herp... Derp... Welp." for a full two minutes. If they actually sat for two solid minutes, that's crap. I'm not usually a big one for "THE RULES NEED TO CHANGE" but I'm pretty similar to Windy with regards to the stopping crap.

Yeah, so am I. I hate no-starts. I have no problem at all with knee-starts though, because at least those start the action faster. I cannot imagine how much booing there must have been during that 2 minutes of not playing derby.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2011 21:10

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

Ria posted:

http://www.derbynewsnetwork.com/2011/06/ecdx_gotham_trounces_philly_267_34

Third jam into the game.

If I was a regular derby fan still, I would've been booing like crazy. I mean, it's rules-ok, but the "poodling" crap, and the "take a knee" and "super delayed starts" thing just... I dunno, rubs me the wrooong way.

The only one of those that bothers me is the no-start. Intentional technical fouls are part of many sports so poodling doesn't bother me at all (except that it involves minors which I am now totally on the no-minors bandwagon). Knee-starts make the game faster and while it's a dumb ruling that causes them to be legal, I don't really have any ideological problem with them from the perspective of damaging the sport. No-starts just piss off your fans and make them sit through 30-120 seconds of not sports.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2011 21:58

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

Ria posted:

Hear, hear. I was noticing this--they are playing the way they want to play. Something I've noticed in men's derby is that they still like the "SKATE FAST, TURN LEFT, HIT A BITCH" mentality that started on the women's side. The women want to play a more cerebral game, and that's, I guess, their prerogative, but it's still kind of boring to watch.

I wonder if co-ed leagues would have a better time of it?

I like a more cerebral game, and I don't think it's boring at all, until we get the point (where we are now) where sometimes the most cerebral thing is to just stand there.

I really prefer slow derby to fast, I think it's a deeper game and more fun to watch. But stop derby is not fun for anyone, be it players, refs, or fans.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2011 15:55

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

Ria posted:

I think now that we're having a stretch of good days in the NEPA/NJ area, I want to break out the outdoor wheels. Time to see if I can't get some exercise.

Wahoo (hopefully I don't die).

Also, unrelated note: Have you noticed that it's sometimes more fun to skate with the fresh meat than with the "veteran" skaters? Maybe it's just the revelry about the sport without all the jaded memories of years of drama, but they just seem to have more "fun" (loaded word, but I can't think of a better one at the moment) than some of the "older" girls do.

There's a sweet spot, or rather an anti-sweet spot. Fresh meat girls have fun skating. Retired or super-long vets also have fun. It's the vets in the middle, the contenders, who don't have fun anymore.

# ¿ Jun 30, 2011 19:40

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

WindyMan posted:

I've always thought it was one or the other interchangeably. ECE, ECDX, same difference.

It basically is, but this year they changed it "officially" from ECE to ECDX. As in, their own promo materials referred to it that way, etc. No idea why.

# ¿ Jun 30, 2011 23:42

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

Mr. Powers posted:

Rules publication:
http://wftda.com/rules/publications/prejam-positioning

Very short of it: If a team lines up behind the line, jam starts, jam ends, official time out, they all get IP minors, pivot gets IP major, 30 seconds to next jam.

Thank god.

I was just coming here to post this. Clarification: people can still poodle individually, the jam only gets called off if a majority of blockers are not "in position", defined as between the jam line and the pivot line.

It's nice that the closed the loophole, but this seems like a weirdly specific way to do it. Like they made a rule specifically to stop people from doing one thing that resulted from a hole in the ruleset to begin with.

# ¿ Jul 15, 2011 05:53

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

ODC posted:

This kind of stuff will really put a cap on how popular the sport becomes.

I really cannot fathom a motive for BOTH teams to want to stand still for a whole jam other than "I hate this sport and want it to die out".

# ¿ Jul 18, 2011 15:40

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

Jiminy Krimpet posted:

^ DC?

I vaguely recall someone from DC having a Sookie-inspired name.

DC has a Sookie Slaughterhouse.

# ¿ Jul 29, 2011 16:27

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

echopapa posted:

When all else fails, just throw tough-sounding words together. I suggest Laserfist Bazooka.

Choose any name from this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFHlJ2voJHY

# ¿ Jul 29, 2011 19:19

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

In scenario 1, nothing I see there would trigger the new rule. The new rule is if a team is not "in position" at the first whistle. "in position" does not mean "in the pack", so wouldn't scenario 1 be identical to starting on a knee? It would just be jammers release, Red can't block them because no pack, congrats to red for taking themselves out of the jam I guess. But it doesn't look like any penalties would be handed out.

E: This is what I mean: "Pivot Blockers are considered in position when they are on the track on or behind the Pivot line and ahead of the Jammer line. Blockers are considered in position when they are on the track behind the Pivot line, behind the Pivot's hips if she is on the Pivot line, and ahead of the Jammer line."

Says nothing about being in a legal pack. You just have to be ahead of the jammer line and behind the pivot line.

JoshTheStampede fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Jul 29, 2011

# ¿ Jul 29, 2011 22:08

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

downtimejesus posted:

While you're right about the in position part being between the two lines, the whole rule has to be looked at. Look at it like this:

In scenario 1, there is no pack(it doesn't exist), and note the bolding, so it goes to the or part which is:
Red blockers are jerking it and the "immediately" expires since they think they're blocking when they're really out of play. If they don't reform quickly enough, jam is dead, since they were out of position by definition.

I don't think that matters. There's a definition of "in position" (which scenario 1 does not break), and a description of the penalty that occurs when you break the rule. The bolded thing about there being a pack is just a description of why people need to be in position, it doesn't change what being in position means.

# ¿ Jul 29, 2011 23:13

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

That World Cup is going to be a Dream-Team level massacre, but it would be really interesting to see those skaters working together. Apparently on the first day they're going to split the team in half and play each other, which is about as close to a WFTDA Pro Bowl as we are likely to see anytime soon.

# ¿ Aug 6, 2011 21:55

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

Dammit, London hosed up my bracket already.

# ¿ Sep 16, 2011 18:34

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

Dutchland forfeiting to Gotham is a loving travesty.

# ¿ Sep 16, 2011 20:10

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

scorpiobean posted:

Seriously. Maine is going to learn so much from this while Dutchland stagnates (with the added bonus of revile from the derby community)

Ninja edit: Haha Dutchland's already getting it pretty hard on Facebook. I wonder if the decision was just the coach or whether it was the entire team that agreed to this "strategy"

I overheard at least 1 Dutchland skater talking about it and saying she "couldn't convince enough people" so I'm fairly sure it was not unanimous. No idea if it was a vote or just a captain/coach decision.

# ¿ Sep 16, 2011 22:25

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

Dolly Rocket just got 4 majors at once and got ejected before the half.

Welp.

# ¿ Sep 17, 2011 21:53

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

Totally TWISTED posted:

Wow. What were the majors?

The initial penalty was a low block. Then she cut across the inside track to go to the box, bitched out a ref on her way and some other procedural penalty that I'm not sure about. Maybe a mouthguard?

E: So are multiplayer blocks just allowed now? There have been a ton of them all weekend uncalled. I don't mean incidental poo poo either, it's obviously intentional clasped-arm red rover style blocks.

JoshTheStampede fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Sep 17, 2011

# ¿ Sep 17, 2011 22:20

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

WindyMan posted:

Gotham vs. Philly:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

It went exactly like everyone knew it would, what's so funny about it?

# ¿ Sep 19, 2011 00:05

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

WindyMan posted:

I was in the DNN chatroom and everyone was bitching and complaining during the slow starts and non-jams and non-moving packs and "penalties" that were or weren't being called.

I really thought it was an ugly game, made more ugly by the illusion that anyone thought people thought someone could beat Gotham this weekend.

Including Dutchland.

http://windymanrd.wordpress.com/2011/09/18/in-defense-of-dutchlands-forfeit/

Yeah, no one at the event thought Philly had a shot of beating Gotham. They were talking about how Philly had "stepped it up" because they were only down 100 at the half. So do you think everyone should just always forfeit to Gotham, then? After all, no one in the East (or North or South, and only a couple teams in the West) has a chance of beating them. Just hand them the trophy and save them the trip?

The brackets were public for a long time before the tournament. Dutchland knew for weeks they would have to play Gotham if they beat Maine. If they weren't willing to do that then they shouldn't have shown up.

Penalties were really badly done all weekend, to the point where I think the refs must have had a meeting and made an intentional decision to call poo poo really loose. Huge dangerous back blocks uncalled, the new multiplayer blocking vogue, etc.

JoshTheStampede fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Sep 19, 2011

# ¿ Sep 19, 2011 17:16

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

The multiplayer blocks and the new sardine-can jam starts where everyone stacks up right on the jam line is going to lead to more injuries. When every jam starts with a literal scrum where the jammer is pushing the pile like a fullback and the pack is sideways planting their skate, something has to give. And that something is going to be a blocker's ACL.

# ¿ Sep 19, 2011 17:49

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

Ms. Happiness posted:

Newb Question.

I understand the point of getting nice wheels and bearings for your skate and even a nice plate and toe stop, but what's the point of a nice boot? Do the more expensive boots fit better which allow more agility?

I don't skate, but I would imagine its the same as the point of buying nice shoes in general - they fit better and are more comfortable, less likely to give you blisters, etc. It doesn't make you skate faster (though I guess a lighter boot might), it's for comfort.

# ¿ Sep 20, 2011 20:14

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

Ria posted:

I suggested to the rest of the viewing party that day that the stats for it should be just as bad, if not worse, than the largest deficit seen in the tournament. Make Dutchland lose 370+ to 0. And see if that would change it a bit.

Something tells me that there will be a "strategic forfeit" rule implemented. Whether it does away with it or imposes some other kind of penalty, but I think it'll probably add something on, there.

I'm positive something will change. The most likely will be a rule that a voluntary forfeit (as opposed to one caused by lack of skaters or injuries) will forfeit you from the entire tournament.

# ¿ Sep 23, 2011 18:00

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

Jiminy Krimpet posted:

I guess calling it the "Dutchland Rule" should be penalty enough.

Also, regarding the allowance of injury forfeits instead of strategery forfeits, this week's NFL divesmanship was the first thing I thought of. Cynical, I guess, but that's why we're having this discussion in the first place.

Yeah, but if you're forfeiting a game due to injury, I imagine you would have to have the tourney EMTs at least take a look at the injured skaters.

That said, people already do take soccer-style dives to draw penalties, it's getting pretty ridiculous.

# ¿ Sep 23, 2011 19:56

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

Turada posted:

I went to a derby event on Friday and thought it was great, so I've spent the rest of the weekend reading about it and watching the West Region playoffs. I've seen a few bouts and they were all really fun...but these commentators. That guy with the gravel voice is the worst, I can hardly stand to hear him talk. And they plug the sponsors every two minutes! I watch a lot of streamed content that is entirely reliant on sponsor money to run (StarCraft II) and I hardly notice it compared to this.

That guy is Dumptruck and he rules. I want my phone ringer to be him saying POWER JAM.

# ¿ Sep 26, 2011 02:12

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

downtimejesus posted:

I saw that tent when I was at the Crashpad for the MRDA morning-after scrimmage, and was like "what the gently caress is that for" - now it makes sense.

I think I'm supposed to scrimmage or some poo poo from 2-4:00pm so who knows if I'll be watching the finals. I haven't seen any of this tournament(Skyrim owns), has anything stupid/hilarious/awesome happened?

Every single jam starts with a literal red rover rugby scrum now and it's loving terrible. Multiplayer blocks are apparently just allowed now.

During the Rocky game, Psychobabble turned to face the jammer, blocked her with her chest, and then set her loving toestops and the jammer rode her around turn 1 like a blocking sled, chopping feet and everything. It looked like they were running a drill.

# ¿ Nov 13, 2011 05:19

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

Spookydonut posted:

That's not a penalty. She's blocking and being counterblocked legally. As long as they're still moving. Soon as either one stops it's a stopped block.

I think setting her toe stops and leaning into the block is being stopped. She was only moving because she was being pushed, she wasn't moving on her own.

E: Also, that wasn't meant to be an example of the multiplayer blocking thing I also mentioned, obviously, since it was only one person.

# ¿ Nov 16, 2011 17:34

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

Mr. Powers posted:

Stopped is stopped. If she's moving counter clockwise, she's not stopped regardless of how or why she's moving.

So when she stopped to make the initial block that wasn't being stopped?

# ¿ Nov 16, 2011 19:57

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

Its a joke, US is going to destroy everyone Dream Team style.

# ¿ Dec 2, 2011 02:50

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

WindyMan posted:

Although there's the Stars vs. Strips scrimmage. The only team that can beat the USA, is the USA.

Yeah, that is going to be a pretty great game. Closest thing we'll get to a WFTDA All-Star Game.

# ¿ Dec 2, 2011 02:59

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

Dancingthroughlife posted:

Hey everyone! I finally got health insurance so I don't have an excuse to procrastinate on the skating front. Thing is: I'm scared. I've never really been physically hurt in any real sense and I no longer have any idea how to skate. And my local rink is only open on the weekends right now, so it's packed with kids that I'm terrified I'm going to land on. Or break my own leg in front of everyone. How do I get over this fear? Is it really as simple as making my mind up to skate? No matter what?

Practice falling, wear proper safety gear, and get hit once. That's really it, once you get hit really hard once and don't break you get over the fear.

Assuming you mean you're afraid to get hit and not simply afraid to blow out a knee or an ankle or something, in which case it really is just skate and skate some more and eventually you'll get over it.

Or you won't, and you'll have to deal with the fear all the time. I know plenty of skaters who are like that, and some deal with it better than others.

# ¿ Dec 6, 2011 06:03

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 19:17

JoshTheStampede: Sep 8, 2004; come at me bro

EvilMoFo posted:

Defcon happens to be the same weekend again this year, I meant to go over to roller con 2 years ago but did not get around to it. Since I am getting into being an NSO, I expect to go on Thursday and again to check out the black & blue ball.

Reading how well Roller Con is being treated at the Riviera upsets me, they were a bunch of dicks to Defcon.

Isn't every hotel a dick to Defcon because everywhere it gets hosted winds up hacked and poo poo like that?

# ¿ Dec 21, 2011 16:20

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > Roller Derby Megathread II: Whip It Good!

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