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Yeah, scum barges and pretty much the whole rep-economy outer system are far closer to the logical end-state of libertarian/anarcho-capitalist thought trends.
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Dec 11, 2011 07:39
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Young Freud posted:They also name the style of colony cylinder after Ronald Reagan. There's definitely a "free market libertarian" vibe with the Jovians. We have extropia already though. quote:What this means, even if there's homosexual couples using surrogates or in-vitro fertilization, homosexuality could be eradicated within a few generations through personal choices conducted on their offspring in-utero. I'm gonna say this as a gay man, i don't give a poo poo. Why should i? It doesn't affect me or any other gay person. Gomi posted:Yeah, scum barges and pretty much the whole rep-economy outer system are far closer to the logical end-state of libertarian/anarcho-capitalist thought trends. Uh, wah? Lemme just repeat that for emphasis. Uh, wah? The whole concept of a rep economy requires a society to be post-capitalist.
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Dec 11, 2011 13:49
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If the Jovians really wanted to name a moon after a terrible person, they'd name it Obama.
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Dec 11, 2011 14:16
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I have to agree with woomod here, Extropia is the anarchocapitalist haven while the whole rep economy is pretty much the polar opposite. The whole point is that you don't have to amass personal wealth, if you need or want something you ask for it and if you're not an rear end in a top hat about it or go overboard someone will likely give it to you. And connected to that: Kwyndig posted:Yes and no. If your augmentations are genetic (part of your morph) then definitely no, as they can't rebuild you without putting those in, if they're external but part of your medical records... I think that boils down to negotiation (rep-based economies probably no, credit based economies probably yes). I would expect it to be the other way round, if you're in good standing with the rep-using people who rebuild you i wouldn't be surprised if they threw in at least some of your implants because they think you're a cool guy while most hypercorps would give you exactly what you paid for and will skimp on even that if they think they can get away with it and/or they don't value your opinion as much at the money the save.
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Dec 11, 2011 17:06
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Bistromatic posted:I would expect it to be the other way round, if you're in good standing with the rep-using people who rebuild you i wouldn't be surprised if they threw in at least some of your implants because they think you're a cool guy while most hypercorps would give you exactly what you paid for and will skimp on even that if they think they can get away with it and/or they don't value your opinion as much at the money the save. That's pretty much what I meant... If anybody took that any other way I can only blame being tired makes me write stuff down wrong.
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Dec 11, 2011 17:11
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WhitemageofDOOM posted:The whole concept of a rep economy requires a society to be post-capitalist. Um, that is the logical end-state of libertarianism/anarcho-capitalism - a post-scarcity, individual-driven economy.
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Dec 11, 2011 20:15
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Gomi posted:Um, that is the logical end-state of libertarianism/anarcho-capitalism - a post-scarcity, individual-driven economy. Yes, because libertarians are huge fans of internet piracy... Not liking the state doesn't make you a proponent of bottom up economies/societies, which is what the outer system is based upon. Again, extropia exists, that's the logical extension of "PRIVATIZE EVERYTHING". The outer system is about "DEMOCRATIZE EVERYTHING". WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Dec 11, 2011 |
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Dec 11, 2011 21:07
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I just wrote a 500 word post and it randomly disappeared for no loving reason. gently caress YOU FORUMS SOFTWARE AND gently caress YOU CHROME (whichever one is responsible).WhitemageofDOOM posted:Yes, because libertarians are huge fans of internet piracy... Technically they are. The problem is that libertarian (in its original sense of anarcho-capitalist) has a meaning that is completely different from today's "libertarian." The former (which is what Extropia is) believe the State should only exist to enforce contracts between two mature, willing parties (remember, no coercion in anarchy). If someone who didn't sign the contract pirates something, they're not in breach of the contract since they didn't sign it, and the state has no business intervening. If piracy is impacting your business, it's entirely your fault for not adapting to the market, and you've only got yourself to blame. Actual libertarians would oppose SOPA for the same reason they oppose universal healthcare, which is to say the State should butt the gently caress out in the name of fairness. By contrast, "libertarian" today just means the kind of pro-lobbying Friedmanite scum who are willingly destroying society and their supposedly-precious capitalism from within in order to bring about the same kind of corporate cronyism you'd find in a Gibson novel (which is a lot like what Mussolini called fascism, by the way!). Incidentally, in an anarcho-capitalist society, privatising everything is democratising everything - because you've removed all barriers to entry except money and society rewards those who contribute meaningfully with financial gains, the economy is basically a rep-based economy where the rep points are just called "dollars" or "moolah" or whatever you want it to, because society is a true meritocracy. e; the not-completely-subhuman-trash kind of libertarians (the first kind) is laughable when it insists that if you dropped all regulations RIGHT THIS INSTANT the world would be perfect for the same reason anarcho-socialists or -syndicalists who believe that if the government packed up and handed power tomorrow to the People/unions the world would be perfect, i.e. they are incredibly optimistic and dumb. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Dec 11, 2011 |
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Dec 11, 2011 21:41
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First, a bunch of things: I agree with the anarchist/minarchist label, not with the capitalist one. I have no economics education, only a laymans interest. I know that wikipedia quotes are not proper sourcing but this isn't my area of expertise and i wouldn't know where to look right now. Wikipedia posted:There is no consensus on the precise definition nor on how the term should be used as a historical category. There is general agreement that elements of capitalism include private ownership of the means of production, creation of goods or services for profit, the accumulation of capital, competitive markets and wage labor. Private Cornucopia machines aren't unusual but i seem to remember that most habitats feature public ones as well. As for how competitive the typical rep-economy is i have no idea to be honest. Someone tell me if i'm taking this too serious 
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Dec 11, 2011 22:57
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Lemon Curdistan posted:The problem is that libertarian (in its original sense of anarcho-capitalist) has a meaning that is completely different from today's "libertarian." Technically, the original meaning is "Anarchist", but that's neither here nor there. quote:Incidentally, in an anarcho-capitalist society, privatising everything is democratising everything - because you've removed all barriers to entry except money and society rewards those who contribute meaningfully with financial gains, the economy is basically a rep-based economy where the rep points are just called "dollars" or "moolah" or whatever you want it to, because society is a true meritocracy. The problems with this, are several. First is that money=votes, once one accumulate wealth one has a larger share of control in the economy in the future. Compounding the first is the second, Money attracts money. The more money one has the easier it is to accumulate more money. Layered on top of the other two is inheritance, people pass on there accumulated money from generation to generation. The way property based economics works simply by a facet of it's nature, creates entrenched power structures making it hard for the people on the bottom to contribute to there full capacity due to being unable to have access to the opportunities to do so. I could also point out how because of money=votes, lots of people make tons of money not by benefiting society/the economy, but by performing services to those with lots of money, even if it actively harms society/the economy.
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Dec 11, 2011 22:59
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Bistromatic posted:As for how competitive the typical rep-economy is i have no idea to be honest. It's very probably quite a bit competitive, but it's people competing for the equivalent of Facebook/YouTube Likes/views rather than competing for raw resources - if you don't, you're left behind and have no "buying" power. If you want to read a tiny bit more about what rep economics might possibly look like, check out Doctorow's Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom. WhitemageofDOOM posted:Technically, the original meaning is "Anarchist", but that's neither here nor there. That is no longer the case, because anarchism has a whole host of ideologies that disagree on pretty much everything except that coercion is bad. WhitemageofDOOM posted:The problems with this, are several. None of these are a problem in the kind of society in which anarchism can exist. (Welcome to the number one problem with utopian thinking: it presumes a world in which the conditions for the world's existence are true, and is tautological in the extreme.) For the record, I'm an broadly anarcho-socialist, but like I already mentioned, anyone who thinks their brand of anarchy is attainable in today's world is an idiot.
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Dec 11, 2011 23:04
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Lemon Curdistan posted:It's very probably quite a bit competitive, but it's people competing for the equivalent of Facebook/YouTube Likes/views rather than competing for raw resources - if you don't, you're left behind and have no "buying" power. Yeah, humans just are competitive by nature. The question is if that competition is being funneled properly to social benefit. quote:For the record, I'm an broadly anarcho-socialist, but like I already mentioned, anyone who thinks their brand of anarchy is attainable in today's world is an idiot. Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good. P.S. : When you run "Smash the hypercorps" tell me, i totally want in on that!
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Dec 11, 2011 23:13
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My game actually shifted into 'smash the megacorp' by total accident. It's pretty awesome because the 'megacorps are basically gods, deal with it fuckers' style of the setting means our gm can basically go hog wild. Also it's a company with a lot of mining/mineral/industry focus, so there's poo poo like raids of smelting plants and armies of robot drones and poo poo.
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Dec 11, 2011 23:27
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I tried to get a GM I know to run a cyberpunk setting where all the players were terrorists against the massive country-spanning megacorps but he was a dickbutt. EP sounds like the best place ever to do it. Mass drivers everywhere, hundreds of groups to play against each other, the awesome ideas that swapping bodies brings (impersonate a hypercorp then go touching things belonging to the aliens? aw yeah), that campaign would kick rear end. Nemesis Of Moles fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Dec 12, 2011 |
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Dec 12, 2011 00:50
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Yea it's honestly super easy to do in EP because you can have some cool rear end 'kill the CEO' missions without having to make them the climax of the game. Like "Oh poo poo let's go kill that CEO...oh yea he has like, an entire warehouse full of top of the line skins to hop into, and he's insured so if anything we're going to be giving him more money....well gently caress it let's go show him we're not dicking around anyway'. That was basically our last session, we fully knew if anything we were only mildly bothering the dude, but to 'send a message' we just kinda straight up murdered him. Any game where assassination is a warning is a pretty awesome game!
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Dec 12, 2011 01:37
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Glitterbomber posted:Yea it's honestly super easy to do in EP because you can have some cool rear end 'kill the CEO' missions without having to make them the climax of the game. Like "Oh poo poo let's go kill that CEO...oh yea he has like, an entire warehouse full of top of the line skins to hop into, and he's insured so if anything we're going to be giving him more money....well gently caress it let's go show him we're not dicking around anyway'. Should have burnt the warehouse down. I mean if the guy keeps all his back up morphs in the same place, your really doing him a service to remind him why that's a bad idea.
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Dec 12, 2011 01:46
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WhitemageofDOOM posted:Should have burnt the warehouse down. I mean if the guy keeps all his back up morphs in the same place, your really doing him a service to remind him why that's a bad idea. Oh that's next session, don't worry, also we're fairly positive he has backup backup backup backups. The warehouse is basically full of basic sleeves for 'what the gently caress my car blew up, I have a meeting tomorrow drat it', we're fairly sure he's got plenty of backup 'oh ok now it's time to murder some fools' sleeves.
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Dec 12, 2011 01:53
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Glitterbomber posted:Oh that's next session, don't worry, also we're fairly positive he has backup backup backup backups. The warehouse is basically full of basic sleeves for 'what the gently caress my car blew up, I have a meeting tomorrow drat it', we're fairly sure he's got plenty of backup 'oh ok now it's time to murder some fools' sleeves. No, no, no, Next session is where you use psychosurgery on the alpha forks you create from his stack. Flay his soul for info, then do it again and again. Then, you empty his bank accounts. And give all his money to the morningstar constellation, and you air all his dirty laundry to burn down his Rep while your at it. THAT is how you send a message.
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Dec 12, 2011 02:03
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I like you.
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Dec 12, 2011 02:08
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Not attempting to reignite the anarcho-capitalism debate, but I've found that I got a much better handle on what Eclipse Phase was going for when I read the same books the writers had. In the case of the Extropian habitats and full-blown anarchocapitalism, you really ought to read Ken MacLeod's The Stone Canal, aka Planet of the Libertarians, and in general you should look at the whole pack of British guys who wrote big-name sci-fi books between 1990 and today, like Banks, Reynolds, Baxter and the myriad others. Hell, if nothing else, it's a good idea mine.
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Dec 12, 2011 03:20
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Stross' Accelerando is an excellent intro to a lot of the concepts, as is Singularity Sky, which has this representative quote:Singularity Sky posted:The Citizen made a note. "Now please state your nationality."
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Dec 12, 2011 03:40
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Gomi posted:Stross' Accelerando is an excellent intro to a lot of the concepts, as is Singularity Sky, which has this representative quote: I've said it before, but I'll reiterate that the Takeshi Kovacs novels (Altered Carbon, Broken Angels, and Woken Furies) by Richard K Morgan are another good intro source of the other core ideas for EP. Cortical stacks in EP are the ones from the Kovacs books, the TQZ is almost a dead lift from the last book, and the presentation of dead alien civilizations is very similar. Plus the tone as a whole is the one that quietly underlines the whole setting - the future is bright and shiny and utopian... Except things are still poo poo because the universe is a big scary place, and the banal horror of human misdeeds remains constant.
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Dec 12, 2011 04:36
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I may have to try Altered Carbon again, because a lot of people seem to like the books despite the fact that Kovacs is a despicable rear end in a top hat and there's no apparent reason to like or care about him or anyone else in the book. It's possible I was just in the wrong headspace when I read it.
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Dec 12, 2011 05:22
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Does anyone know of cheap miniatures that could be used for boards? I glanced in at the Infinity thread going on here but, when I looked for prices, they were way too expensive for something that may see people change bodies regularly. While I can just use stacks of coins or something, it's much more engaging and easier to keep things identified if I use minis.
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Dec 12, 2011 05:48
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Gomi posted:I may have to try Altered Carbon again, because a lot of people seem to like the books despite the fact that Kovacs is a despicable rear end in a top hat and there's no apparent reason to like or care about him or anyone else in the book. It's possible I was just in the wrong headspace when I read it. Oh no, Kovacs is a despicable rear end in a top hat. The thing is, the people he goes up against are worse. As a side note, it's a good thing nobody in the Eclipse Phase setting has developed anything approaching Envoy conditioning (you can however, approximate it with skills and what not, but it would be really expensive.)
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Dec 12, 2011 06:06
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Glitterbomber posted:Yea it's honestly super easy to do in EP because you can have some cool rear end 'kill the CEO' missions without having to make them the climax of the game. More importantly, the whole social network aspect of EP's setting means that you can do "financial terrorism" - i.e. tanking a corporation's share prices - quite easily. There's loads of ways to creatively damage hypercorps and the people at their helm that don't involve just plain boring physical violence, plus all of the usual cyberpunk stuff (plan a heist on a corporate stronghold! Disappear one of their enforcers! Leak the blueprints to their latest invention! Plant "proof" that they've been doing illegal things then call in the right authorities! etc.). Also, everyone should read Accelerando. It's a great accidental horror story.
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Dec 12, 2011 10:23
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So eclipse phasits. How Possible/Horrible would it be for me to hook up multi-tasking mods to my ghost rider modules.
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Dec 13, 2011 03:28
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WhitemageofDOOM posted:So eclipse phasits. How Possible/Horrible would it be for me to hook up multi-tasking mods to my ghost rider modules. In my experience, it actually ends up being more a justification for why you can do a crazy Eclipse Phase things like a Research check in about 2 or 3 minutes to get a ton of info, or Infosec checks on the move. It's just too crazy and game breaking to really do anything else. Plus, it just makes for a better game if you can say something like "I fork myself 20 times and use x10 speed simulated XP to interrogate all the members of this gang we captured at once," and just make one or two social skill checks and the DM gives you plot.
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Dec 13, 2011 03:51
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Comrade Gorbash posted:In theory you probably could, though your GM might slap you. Keep in mind that something in your ghostrider can really only handle mesh actions. I like GhostRiders as the 'My Infomorph member of my team can travel around physically with everyone.' solution. Also, encourage people to make alpha and beta morphs.. Just subtly remind them they don't fully control them when they're made. 
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Dec 13, 2011 04:18
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TenjouUtena posted:Also, encourage people to make alpha and beta morphs.. Just subtly remind them they don't fully control them when they're made. Asking my GM to control all my forks is probably the fastest way to make him slap me. I'm currently running four of the drat things.
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Dec 13, 2011 04:36
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How hard/out of whack would the ruleset be if you primarily had a group interested in gatecrashing and the transhuman setting part, and not so much the variety of morphs or constant backups/forks? Like having a specific primary synth morph or two 90% of the time and relying on equipment to get through adventures?
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Dec 13, 2011 07:00
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Comrade Gorbash posted:In theory you probably could, though your GM might slap you. Keep in mind that something in your ghostrider can really only handle mesh actions. That's how I was planning on handling it, but it didn't come up before the game went on hiatus (holiday/finals season, etc). I'll keep that solution in mind, though. TenjouUtena posted:I like GhostRiders as the 'My Infomorph member of my team can travel around physically with everyone.' solution. It also makes a good way to keep someone around after their morph is hosed up, if you can get hold of their stack. Upload their ego into your ghostrider and off you go. WhitemageofDOOM posted:Asking my GM to control all my forks is probably the fastest way to make him slap me. I'm currently running four of the drat things. No 'probably' about it, sir. 
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Dec 13, 2011 09:53
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Fenarisk posted:How hard/out of whack would the ruleset be if you primarily had a group interested in gatecrashing and the transhuman setting part, and not so much the variety of morphs or constant backups/forks? Like having a specific primary synth morph or two 90% of the time and relying on equipment to get through adventures? It wouldn't be out of whack at all. I've run games with the players never changing morphs at all, primarily relying on all sorts of odd equipment. They did take the "And the kitchen sink" approach to their bioware but, at the end of the day, they did cool stuff with what they had. Going gatecrashing can be really fun, as long as you know what sort of game you have in mind. I've long been planning a Jurassic Park style game, either involving Echo V or Sky Ark. Nothing like sending players to hunt down alien fauna on the back of a neogenetic utahraptor.
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Dec 13, 2011 15:29
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EP may be written as if people switch morphs all the time but in practice, as you buy more wetware/cyberware, the odds of you willingly switching morphs get slimmer and slimmer.
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Dec 13, 2011 16:02
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Fenarisk posted:How hard/out of whack would the ruleset be if you primarily had a group interested in gatecrashing and the transhuman setting part, and not so much the variety of morphs or constant backups/forks? Like having a specific primary synth morph or two 90% of the time and relying on equipment to get through adventures? Not at all. Though in that case i'd probably sleeve in a crasher morph since that's exactly what there designed for. Lemon Curdistan posted:EP may be written as if people switch morphs all the time but in practice, as you buy more wetware/cyberware, the odds of you willingly switching morphs get slimmer and slimmer. Characters die and you need to get around the system from time to time, I'm not fond of putting huge amounts into my morph for that reason. Which is why i just sort of blink when people complain about stacked morphs, it's only a problem if the GM never kills characters or the party never travels anywhere. 30 Second Artbomb posted:That's how I was planning on handling it, but it didn't come up before the game went on hiatus (holiday/finals season, etc). I'll keep that solution in mind, though.  quote:It also makes a good way to keep someone around after their morph is hosed up, if you can get hold of their stack. Upload their ego into your ghostrider and off you go. And i like them because they let me keep up with my god drat twitter accounts. Forks for the fork god, twitter accounts for the twitter throne! quote:No 'probably' about it, sir. What no comments about my desire to hook multitasking upto my ghost rider modules? WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Dec 13, 2011 |
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Dec 13, 2011 16:06
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Is there a good pregenerated quick-and-dirty adventure I could run to introduce Eclipse Phase to some people? I'd like to try getting a group into this but it'd be nice if I could just plop them down with some premade characters and run a 1-2 session adventure to see if they like it.
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Dec 13, 2011 20:49
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plester1 posted:Is there a good pregenerated quick-and-dirty adventure I could run to introduce Eclipse Phase to some people? I'd like to try getting a group into this but it'd be nice if I could just plop them down with some premade characters and run a 1-2 session adventure to see if they like it. Yes!! Look at the quickstart adventure here: http://www.eclipsephase.com/qsr Be sure to print out the four character sheets (with two for each, so 8 total) and hold on to them until the right time. The adventure does a *great* job of introducing one of the core aspects of EP, resleeving.
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Dec 13, 2011 22:28
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If you run that adventure, get the group used to the idea of resleeving and the variety of available morphs beforehand, or you could have problems when the anticipated need to resleeve comes into play. Being blown to buggery with little warning doesn't sit well with a lot of players, and others could have issues being plugged into a neotenic or arachnoid.
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Dec 13, 2011 22:45
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WhitemageofDOOM posted:Asking my GM to control all my forks is probably the fastest way to make him slap me. I'm currently running four of the drat things. Forks do cause alienation and continuity tests and a fork takes 2 stress, no matter what. Knowing a fork just died (especially an alpha fork) should cause a stress check. Also, controlling all of your forks is pretty munchkin in Eclipse Phase IMO, especially if each fork has their own Moxie score. quote:multi-tasking mods to my ghost rider modules. Only characters with cortical stacks can use multi-tasking. An infomorph in a ghost rider does NOT have a cortical stack therefore it cannot multi-task.
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Dec 13, 2011 23:57
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clockworkjoe posted:Forks do cause alienation and continuity tests and a fork takes 2 stress, no matter what. Knowing a fork just died (especially an alpha fork) should cause a stress check. Page reference, please?
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Dec 14, 2011 01:22
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