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Smudgie Buggler: Feb 27, 2005; If men were actuated by self-interest the whole human race would cooperate.

You know, as much as I don't care even the slightest bit for OFWGKTA, it occurs to me that vilifying them because they use sexually violent imagery and therefore perpetuate surprise sex culture is like vilifying Andy Warhol because he used brand imagery and therefore perpetuated consumerism. I'm not making a comparison of quality here, nor am I saying that Odd Future have a similar level of self-awareness and aren't basically just a bunch of foul-mouthed hoodlums, but it does seem like you need a bit more than naked disgust and an intuition that This Is Bad For Society to decry art, even art you and I may agree isn't very good, as being wrong in any meaningful sense and have people take your position seriously. In terms of social harm, I'm not sure where Odd Future's works depart ethically from, say, those of The Three Stooges. I really do have to look at the cover of the Beatles' Yesterday and Today and wonder if this outrage isn't maybe just slightly lacking in circumspection and a sense of the history of art and politics.

# ? Aug 19, 2011 14:30

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# ? May 24, 2013 04:05

het: Nov 14, 2002

Cwapface posted:

nor am I saying that Odd Future have a similar level of self-awareness

This is precisely the reason the Warhol comparison doesn't make sense, though.

quote:

In terms of social harm, I'm not sure where Odd Future's works depart ethically from, say, those of The Three Stooges.

People trying to quantify the exact amount that Odd Future has hurt society are missing the point. The amount of one artist's contribution to systemic problems is less of a problem than just the fact that they unabashedly contribute to them.

quote:

I really do have to look at the cover of the Beatles' Yesterday and Today and wonder if this outrage isn't maybe just slightly lacking in circumspection and a sense of the history of art and politics.

I've gotta say, all of the examples of other artists you mentioned in this post are really awful analogies. What has OF done that has a social message that's comparable to the Yesterday and Today cover?

# ? Aug 19, 2011 15:23

warzero.: Jan 4, 2007; Ooooh WEE, That's how I sound, so C'MON ERR-BODY LET'S ALL GET DOWN.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree. The "Yesterday and Today" cover was about the Vietnam War; their comment on it, according to Paul.

I'm not discrediting their abilities as artists or to make socially conscious music, but their idea of it goes as far as 'gently caress the police' and 'kill people, burn poo poo, gently caress school', if that.

# ? Aug 19, 2011 16:43

Baron Patsy: Apr 8, 2006; I'M SPECIAL DAMMIT

Grantonio posted:

http://www.lilwaynehq.com/2011/08/1...er-the-creator/

admittedly at this point i'm not a huge OF fan and i hate the game, but i don't get what people are digging about this track. game is being even more sycophantic than usual and pretty much trying to bite tyler's gimmick/style wholesale (and doing a pretty bad job imo) and tyler's verse is eh at best.

i might be reading things into it that other people aren't, but i think that that track is seriously nagl for game

# ? Aug 19, 2011 18:29

x TOMMYBOY x: Jan 15, 2008; by angerbeet

Baron Patsy posted:

admittedly at this point i'm not a huge OF fan and i hate the game, but i don't get what people are digging about this track. game is being even more sycophantic than usual and pretty much trying to bite tyler's gimmick/style wholesale (and doing a pretty bad job imo) and tyler's verse is eh at best.

i might be reading things into it that other people aren't, but i think that that track is seriously nagl for game

I like it well enough on it's own, and its gonna sound even better in an album setting imho.

# ? Aug 19, 2011 18:34

alansmithee: Jan 25, 2007; Quit hatin' the South

het posted:

People trying to quantify the exact amount that Odd Future has hurt society are missing the point. The amount of one artist's contribution to systemic problems is less of a problem than just the fact that they unabashedly contribute to them.

I don't really agree with this. The degree to which any artist may/may not be "hurting society" is vitally important. You could argue that all pop music in general contributes to systemic societal problems (and likely most music in general) but I don't think it's reasonable to call out all musicians.

quote:

I've gotta say, all of the examples of other artists you mentioned in this post are really awful analogies. What has OF done that has a social message that's comparable to the Yesterday and Today cover?

I'll admit I've never been a big Beetles fan but in hindsight I really think a lot of the music people point to as having vast social messages from the 60's/70's is really overblown w/r/t any sort of coherent message. I mean a reasonable argument could be made that based on some interviews he's given and the contents of the music Tyler does have a social message in his music.

# ? Aug 19, 2011 18:39

stay depressed: Sep 30, 2003; same

alansmithee posted:

I'll admit I've never been a big Beetles fan but in hindsight I really think a lot of the music people point to as having vast social messages from the 60's/70's is really overblown w/r/t any sort of coherent message. I mean a reasonable argument could be made that based on some interviews he's given and the contents of the music Tyler does have a social message in his music.

The wiki article says they were into the shoot because it was different and unusual and they all had really flimsy rationales for it except George Harrison who said it "was gross, and I also thought it was stupid. Sometimes we all did stupid things thinking it was cool and hip when it was na�ve and dumb; and that was one of them." They didn't have any message until it made waves so yeah, the Beatles thing is a wash.

# ? Aug 19, 2011 18:44

het: Nov 14, 2002

alansmithee posted:

I'll admit I've never been a big Beetles fan but in hindsight I really think a lot of the music people point to as having vast social messages from the 60's/70's is really overblown w/r/t any sort of coherent message. I mean a reasonable argument could be made that based on some interviews he's given and the contents of the music Tyler does have a social message in his music.

That and Carl's comments notwithstanding, there's nothing that even really plays at being high-minded about a social issue, is there? At best Tyler's doing personal introspective poo poo that could maybe be extrapolated out to the fans who relate to his stuff, but at that point anything anyone could relate to is a "social message".

# ? Aug 19, 2011 19:05

Backup Snacks: Jan 26, 2006; WHO THE FUCK TOLD ME NOT TO SPOKE?

Just got tickets to the 10/9 show at the Ogden in Denver

Where's my CO OF fans at?

# ? Aug 19, 2011 21:03

the black husserl: Feb 25, 2005

PonchAxis posted:

I enjoyed the Pusha T one better as well, but here it seems that Game is giving lots of shoutouts to Lil B. Weird track.

Um by shoutout do you mean threatened to kill him? Cause thats what he did

# ? Aug 20, 2011 03:48

warzero.: Jan 4, 2007; Ooooh WEE, That's how I sound, so C'MON ERR-BODY LET'S ALL GET DOWN.

the black husserl posted:

Um by shoutout do you mean threatened to kill him? Cause thats what he did

I'm sorry but... what? Seriously?

# ? Aug 20, 2011 09:02

Smudgie Buggler: Feb 27, 2005; If men were actuated by self-interest the whole human race would cooperate.

het posted:

This is precisely the reason the Warhol comparison doesn't make sense, though.

The important thing when talking about the consequences of art, isn't what the artist(s) meant to communicate, but how their message is received. That Warhol was essentially a visual satirist and anti-consumerist, and that there is no reflexive quality or coherent purpose to Odd Future's music beyond getting paid seems irrelevant. It doesn't seem to make the logic of "OFWGKTA use surprise sex imagery --> OFWGKTA perpetuate surprise sex culture" any less analogous to "Warhol used brand imagery --> Warhol perpetuated consumerism and brand worship." That Warhol had some semblance of a point to make doesn't mean he had any more control over how his art was received that OFWGKTA do, and that's what at stake here. The impact of art, not the intent.

Now, if you want to argue that they're promoting surprise sex culture, rather than merely perpetuating it, that's a different story and I'll readily admit my analogy is rubbish in that context. My argument only holds weight against teleological arguments claiming that they're doing something bad regardless of their intent.

quote:

People trying to quantify the exact amount that Odd Future has hurt society are missing the point. The amount of one artist's contribution to systemic problems is less of a problem than just the fact that they unabashedly contribute to them.

If you think I'm talking about anybody trying to quantify harm then you're missing my point. I was only pointing out that very very few people get up in arms about people who use (non-sexual) violence to entertain perpetuating a culture of violence. Exclude extreme examples that people do get cranky about for a second and think about The Three Stooges or Tom & Jerry. These are things that are (or were) aimed at children. Why are they less deserving of our anger than OFWGKTA? I'm not saying they are, but that it seems inconsistent to be outraged by Odd Future for perpetuating surprise sex culture, but not extend that same outrage to Quentin Tarantino for perpetuating a violent gun culture.

Smudgie Buggler fucked around with this message at Aug 20, 2011 around 10:40

# ? Aug 20, 2011 10:34

knox: Oct 28, 2004

I'm not understanding where Odd Future is doing something different from any other artist who creates some type of controversy with their lyrics or image or what have you. Maybe nobody is saying that, but if it's no different from other controversial artists, what's the point in arguing the "societal harm" done? It's a part of our society but I laugh when I think of Tyler and people trying to argue the negative impact he's had with our society and he's on twitter saying poo poo like "I just farted too hard think i dookied all over myself." The fact they don't give a gently caress about the impact/how the "message" is received, obviously doesn't mean there isn't an impact happening, but I just don't see anything different about Odd Future, and anything they put out there has been experienced over and over again. I don't think something that's already been a part of our culture can really harm or generate some negative impact on our society.

# ? Aug 20, 2011 12:12

Baron Patsy: Apr 8, 2006; I'M SPECIAL DAMMIT

warzero. posted:

I'm sorry but... what? Seriously?

uhh yeah game said he was going to tie lil b up to a tank of propane and burn him alive, then said "swag. cook."

# ? Aug 20, 2011 17:33

het: Nov 14, 2002

Cwapface posted:

I'm not saying they are, but that it seems inconsistent to be outraged by Odd Future for perpetuating surprise sex culture, but not extend that same outrage to Quentin Tarantino for perpetuating a violent gun culture.

How is this argument any different from the "Well after you're raped, you're still alive, so it seems like murder is at least as bad if not worse than surprise sex, shouldn't we be more angry about them talking about murder??" argument that I specifically asked people to drop?

# ? Aug 20, 2011 17:57

NeuroticErotica: Sep 9, 2003; Perform sex? Uh uh, I don't think I'm up to a performance, but I'll rehearse with you...

PonchAxis posted:

I enjoyed the Pusha T one better as well, but here it seems that Game is giving lots of shoutouts to Lil B. Weird track.

Not quite... http://www.hiphopdx.com/index/news/...per-of-all-time

Game heard one Lil B track and says he's the wackest of all time.

# ? Aug 20, 2011 19:51

warzero.: Jan 4, 2007; Ooooh WEE, That's how I sound, so C'MON ERR-BODY LET'S ALL GET DOWN.

NeuroticErotica posted:

Not quite... http://www.hiphopdx.com/index/news/...per-of-all-time

Game heard one Lil B track and says he's the wackest of all time.

Game: You've got to think of every entity of his character!

Game is a loving moron. BASEDGOD!

# ? Aug 20, 2011 20:15

IM DAY DAY IRL: Jul 11, 2003

warzero. posted:

Game: You've got to think of every entity of his character!

Game is a loving moron. BASEDGOD!

You either scanned the article or have the reading comprehension of a child. BASEDGOD!

# ? Aug 20, 2011 20:37

warzero.: Jan 4, 2007; Ooooh WEE, That's how I sound, so C'MON ERR-BODY LET'S ALL GET DOWN.

IM DAY DAY IRL posted:

You either scanned the article or have the reading comprehension of a child. BASEDGOD!

I'll be honest: I scanned it. You mad?

edit: Let me clarify, I'm not saying Game is stupid because he sucks at using words properly, he sucks because he judges a rapper from listening to one verse and then writes them off as garbage. Who does that?

warzero. fucked around with this message at Aug 20, 2011 around 21:48

# ? Aug 20, 2011 21:43

IM DAY DAY IRL: Jul 11, 2003

warzero. posted:

edit: Let me clarify, I'm not saying Game is stupid because he sucks at using words properly, he sucks because he judges a rapper from listening to one verse and then writes them off as garbage. Who does that?

Probably the same type of dude who judges a rapper from reading one line in an article then writes them off as a "loving moron"?

# ? Aug 20, 2011 21:49

warzero.: Jan 4, 2007; Ooooh WEE, That's how I sound, so C'MON ERR-BODY LET'S ALL GET DOWN.

IM DAY DAY IRL posted:

Probably the same type of dude who judges a rapper from reading one line in an article then writes them off as a "loving moron"?

So you're assuming that I've only read one line of what a rapper says? No wonder you're defending him.

Let me again clarify. I do not like game at all, and his shtick of trolling every rapper out right before his mixtape/album drops is getting old. I don't like the fact that he talks poo poo about people and how they should've done something different (regarding Lil B getting knocked out, he said some stuff about it with the hashtag #ActAccordinglyBitchAssNigga or some poo poo). Wait a second, isn't this guy who wrote a song CRYING to Dr. Dre? The thing is, it's not that it even pisses me off, it just seems so childish and stupid coming from someone who labels themselves 'True Gangsta Rap'. Like, how do people take him seriously? His routine and persona conflict. I'm actually looking forward to see if Lil B' responds to this because he'll rip him. He always goes in on diss tracks.

tl;dr Game sucks... still.

# ? Aug 20, 2011 21:57

NeuroticErotica: Sep 9, 2003; Perform sex? Uh uh, I don't think I'm up to a performance, but I'll rehearse with you...

Lil B's response:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aIPc1KzXgM

I was at this show

I'm pretty surprised that 1. Lil B drives himself after a show 2. He has a Mercedes

# ? Aug 20, 2011 22:51

MachiniOs: Apr 12, 2011

NeuroticErotica posted:

Lil B's response:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aIPc1KzXgM

I was at this show I'm pretty surprised that 1. Lil B drives himself after a show 2. He has a Mercedes

I would give a limb to go to a Lil B show, to be fair i'm not all that suprised he drives himself. The Game shouldn't judge so easily.

MachiniOs fucked around with this message at Aug 20, 2011 around 23:27

# ? Aug 20, 2011 23:23

The_Rob: Feb 1, 2007; blah blah blah blah

I don't get why everybody is focusing on the one lil b element of the song. The song seriously attacks everyone. Game and Tyler even attack each other in the song.

# ? Aug 21, 2011 01:06

MachiniOs: Apr 12, 2011

The_Rob posted:

I don't get why everybody is focusing on the one lil b element of the song. The song seriously attacks everyone. Game and Tyler even attack each other in the song.

No one really gives a poo poo about Rihanna being dissed because she's famous but Lil B is IMO a good artist and The Game is loving stupid to write him off like that.

# ? Aug 21, 2011 12:58

x TOMMYBOY x: Jan 15, 2008; by angerbeet

The Game is retarded. I didn't even think it was a real diss to Lil B until I heard him later deem him the worst rapper ever. It's sad because the Game really is less relevant than Lil B at this point. His way of maintaining relevancy is releasing boring rear end 20 minute freestyles (over Otis of all beats, love the song but do not want to listen to Game rapping on it for longer than 2 minutes, if that) and namedropping/dissing other people. wack

# ? Aug 21, 2011 13:03

warzero.: Jan 4, 2007; Ooooh WEE, That's how I sound, so C'MON ERR-BODY LET'S ALL GET DOWN.

x TOMMYBOY x posted:

The Game is retarded. I didn't even think it was a real diss to Lil B until I heard him later deem him the worst rapper ever. It's sad because the Game really is less relevant than Lil B at this point. His way of maintaining relevancy is releasing boring rear end 20 minute freestyles (over Otis of all beats, love the song but do not want to listen to Game rapping on it for longer than 2 minutes, if that) and namedropping/dissing other people. wack

That's exactly my point. And the fact that I think Lil B is amazing as well, but like a lot of people (and rappers), hear one verse and give up. You gotta earn that based energy, son!

As for Game, he has and still is irrelevant compared to Lil B. While tweeting all day and uploading girls to your tumblr may work for Lil B, for Game it just makes him look like a loser, sitting all tatted behind a screen saying "nyah nyah" and recording terrible extended versions of tracks, naming everyone he knows.

# ? Aug 21, 2011 15:34

x TOMMYBOY x: Jan 15, 2008; by angerbeet

Yeah Game is just a lame character in most regards to me, and I keep giving him shot after shot. He has what some would say Lil B doesn't have: a really tight flow and consistency with that flow, along with other things. But still manages to be a wholly unremarkable character. Even on a mixtape with features from everyone including Dre I couldn't listen to it more than once.

Anyway I'm not sure this should be derailed into a Lil B/Game discussion but the Odd Future discussion in this thread is tending towards suck

# ? Aug 21, 2011 16:29

warzero.: Jan 4, 2007; Ooooh WEE, That's how I sound, so C'MON ERR-BODY LET'S ALL GET DOWN.

Back to Odd Future.

I'd really like to see how this gap in output works for them. Coming off the huge hype for Goblin, I would think the smarter thing to do would be making sure you have a steady stream of singles to put out afterwards. We gota few Mellowhype tracks, two new Tyler collabs, and... Domo.

I'm not saying that those are a bad start, I just still feel the hype dying and I wonder what is to come for them. I love Mellowhype, but funnily enough, I feel their name is appropriate. I just don't see them holding the torch while Tyler is in the lab making 'Wolf'. Something like Tyler winning a VMA or Earl coming back would definitely help though.

# ? Aug 21, 2011 16:44

x TOMMYBOY x: Jan 15, 2008; by angerbeet

I heard some new Domo poo poo and I don't know what It was but It was awesome.

# ? Aug 21, 2011 17:41

MachiniOs: Apr 12, 2011

x TOMMYBOY x posted:

I heard some new Domo poo poo and I don't know what It was but It was awesome.

You mean his redux of Kid Cudi's Glory?

# ? Aug 21, 2011 19:53

Threatis: Sep 28, 2005; congrats on figuring out how to use a machine with 4 buttons

x TOMMYBOY x posted:

Yeah Game is just a lame character in most regards to me, and I keep giving him shot after shot. He has what some would say Lil B doesn't have: a really tight flow and consistency with that flow, along with other things. But still manages to be a wholly unremarkable character. Even on a mixtape with features from everyone including Dre I couldn't listen to it more than once.

Anyway I'm not sure this should be derailed into a Lil B/Game discussion but the Odd Future discussion in this thread is tending towards suck

aaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahaha you are either trolling or you're a complete loving tool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtbHx7Hexow

# ? Aug 21, 2011 22:30

warzero.: Jan 4, 2007; Ooooh WEE, That's how I sound, so C'MON ERR-BODY LET'S ALL GET DOWN.

Threatis posted:

aaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahaha you are either trolling or you're a complete loving tool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtbHx7Hexow

What are you trying to prove with that? Yes, we're all aware of his "X00 Bars" songs but the particular post you quoted only says he has a tight flow and is consistent while remaining unremarkable. So either you can't read right or YOU'RE trolling.

# ? Aug 21, 2011 22:44

Threatis: Sep 28, 2005; congrats on figuring out how to use a machine with 4 buttons

warzero. posted:

What are you trying to prove with that? Yes, we're all aware of his "X00 Bars" songs but the particular post you quoted only says he has a tight flow and is consistent while remaining unremarkable. So either you can't read right or YOU'RE trolling.

The Game has two loving killer albums, and two wicked mix tapes. Sure he does the namedrop poo poo a bit too much that in no way takes away from the fact that he's killer on the mic.

In my opinion calling him mediocre is loving insane.

# ? Aug 21, 2011 22:47

warzero.: Jan 4, 2007; Ooooh WEE, That's how I sound, so C'MON ERR-BODY LET'S ALL GET DOWN.

Threatis posted:

The Game has two loving killer albums, and two wicked mix tapes. Sure he does the namedrop poo poo a bit too much that in no way takes away from the fact that he's killer on the mic.

In my opinion calling him mediocre is loving insane.

I've already pointed out to you that what you quoted was not bashing his skills, or talent for that matter, rather that his character is unremarkable, and regardless of Game being wicked killer amazing, he's still, as BasedGod himself put it, irrelevant.

# ? Aug 21, 2011 23:09

IM DAY DAY IRL: Jul 11, 2003

I don't understand what fantasy world you live in where Lil B's single throwaway insult negates the fact that the Game is recognized as one of the West's best rappers with 10 million+ record sales under his belt and a highly anticipated album in the works but I hope the weather is nice.

# ? Aug 22, 2011 06:29

warzero.: Jan 4, 2007; Ooooh WEE, That's how I sound, so C'MON ERR-BODY LET'S ALL GET DOWN.

IM DAY DAY IRL posted:

I don't understand what fantasy world you live in where Lil B's single throwaway insult negates the fact that the Game is recognized as one of the West's best rappers with 10 million+ record sales under his belt and a highly anticipated album in the works but I hope the weather is nice.

I don't understand what you have stuck up your rear end deep enough to attack every post I put on here.

It's my opinion, and apparently I'm not alone. I'm happy he has great sales, he's a talented rapper and whatever, he's just NOT INTERESTING. He wants so bad to be the the westcoast comeback kid, and maybe he is, but that era of rap is over, and he's living in the past. Even the object of his manlove desire Dr. Dre is passed that. I never said his one single throwaway insult negates anything about Game, it just is relevant because that's how I feel as well. Haters gon' hate.

# ? Aug 22, 2011 06:42

PonchAxis: Apr 25, 2008; Its time to sax up this club!

NeuroticErotica posted:

Not quite... http://www.hiphopdx.com/index/news/...per-of-all-time

Game heard one Lil B track and says he's the wackest of all time.

Well that is pretty ignorant on the Game's part and even though he has a highly anticipated album out, I feel like he wants to stay revelant putting Tyler on one his tracks off his album. Wasn't the red album in the making for a couple of years already?

# ? Aug 22, 2011 07:45

Smudgie Buggler: Feb 27, 2005; If men were actuated by self-interest the whole human race would cooperate.

het posted:

How is this argument any different from the "Well after you're raped, you're still alive, so it seems like murder is at least as bad if not worse than surprise sex, shouldn't we be more angry about them talking about murder??" argument that I specifically asked people to drop?

Because I'm only comparing violent imagery and surprise sex imagery because it's convenient. I don't whether one is 'worse' than the other. If I had to guess, I'd say the fact that after you're raped you're still alive is precisely why it's such a heinous crime.

If it makes it easier to understand, what I'm questioning is why Odd Future are a problem re: surprise sex culture but Pepe le Pew isn't. Why are these kids the object of so much ire and cries for art to be socially accountable when zero fucks are given about so many other uses of imagery which could just as easily be argued to be perpetuating cultural aspects we don't like?

Smudgie Buggler fucked around with this message at Aug 22, 2011 around 08:03

# ? Aug 22, 2011 07:58

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# ? May 24, 2013 04:05

x TOMMYBOY x: Jan 15, 2008; by angerbeet

Threatis posted:

aaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahaha you are either trolling or you're a complete loving tool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtbHx7Hexow

If that is your evidence for Game being so great, then you are the complete loving tool

I know Game is a capable rapper but he is playing himself at this point. My favorite parts of his songs nowadays are the collaborations, not whatever Game is rapping about.

quote:

I don't understand what fantasy world you live in where Lil B's single throwaway insult negates the fact that the Game is recognized as one of the West's best rappers with 10 million+ record sales under his belt and a highly anticipated album in the works but I hope the weather is nice.

Do you really honestly feel that Game is one of the West's best, personally? When you want to listen to a West Coast rap album, do you throw on Game? Just wondering.

# ? Aug 22, 2011 09:22

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