Odd Future - The Something Awful Forums

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > No Music Discussion > Odd Future

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

Splits posted:

Louis CK said it all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-otAJrtY-w

I still think this is a very misguided understanding of the word's place in our culture, but I want to specifically point out that Louis CK in that clip says "quit being a enjoyable human being and suck that dick", making note that he is divorcing the term from homosexual acts, whereas this:

Sandwolf posted:

He's not saying "KILL FAGGOTS, gently caress SPICS, BURN WHITEY," he's just loving exclaiming. Pull the dicks out of your rear end you bleeding-heart faggots.

goes out of its way to do exactly the opposite of that. So even if we bought into the "I don't mean it like that" defense, that's very clearly not the case.

For those who think using that slur is okay, I would highly recommend this piece by John Amaechi that was written a month ago when Kobe Bryant used the word during an NBA game.

# ¿ May 16, 2011 01:32

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# ¿ May 19, 2013 12:15

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

dirtysammiches posted:

I think this discussion belongs in D&D more than NMD.

No, it's perfectly appropriate in this forum and thread.

quote:

That said, I don't think it's unreasonable for people to want to reappropriate offensive words so that they mean nothing (like "nigga" for example).

Are you serious? Reappropriation of such terms can only occur by the group that is being demeaned. The idea that heterosexual people can reappropriate homosexual slurs by applying them as general slurs is absurd.

quote:

enjoyable human being is still a pretty bad term, so Tyler uses it to shock his audience. The shock approach is nothing that hasn't been done before in other forms of music and has yet to cause any detrimental harm to society.

This is equivocation. Okay, so other people have said lovely, shameful things too. So what? Why does that make this instance valid?

quote:

Truthfully, I'd rather spend my time speaking out against countries in which homosexuality is punishable by death than worrying about the what some kid says in his song.

See, this is the discussion that belongs in D&D because it doesn't have anything to do with music.

# ¿ May 16, 2011 05:55

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

dirtysammiches posted:

At this point this whole thread has become a hub for people who don't like odd future to try and troll those who do.

It's not trolling to suggest that in a music discussion forum, people should engage with the music on a level higher than "I enjoy this". Threads in this forum aren't solely for people who like the music who just want to come and say "I (like/dislike) this" or "X was released, and I (like/dislike) it". Posts that are sincerely expressing reasonable criticism of the intellectual content of music are certainly welcome, and that's not going to change.

That said, some of the critics could definitely stand to dial it back a bit and be more respectful. If you're entering into this without the intent of actually trying to engage with people and change their minds (regardless of whether that seems unlikely), you should probably just not post.

# ¿ May 17, 2011 03:34

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

Ruckby posted:

Those dumb lesbians were asking for it by trying to co-opt the success of a noble artist and use it for their own sinful ends.

This is the sort of thing I wanted to avoid when I said "If you're entering into this without the intent of actually trying to engage with people and change their minds (regardless of whether that seems unlikely), you should probably just not post. " Your post would be far more effective

BTW- when composing this reply, I realized my probation message for temple was written in a similar tone, so I should apologize for that. The probation still stands because it was awfully misogynistic, but I don't want anyone to think I'm taking advantage of a double standard there.

Sharks Eat Bear posted:

Yes, maybe you can spout racist and homophobic poo poo without actually being a racist or a homophobe, but then you're just an rear end in a top hat that can't even be pitied for being ignorant.

I think a reasonable argument can be made that expressing these beliefs while exposing some insight into the mindset behind them can be productive. I don't think Tyler does that necessarily, but I think people tapping into raw, uncomfortable emotions and owning them can be revelatory.

# ¿ May 17, 2011 04:47

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

Nawid posted:

As someone who likes Odd Future, you can't deny Tyler and Co. are loving assholes. They absolutely are. So why do we have a debate?

The debate is less "Are Odd Future assholes(homophobes)" and more "Is that a bad thing". The thing is, I don't think you need to say that it's not a bad thing in order to be a fan of the music. Like I said (or implied) in my previous post, I don't think that music that expresses reprehensible views is necessarily invalid or bad. I listen to some stuff that is pretty heinous, arguably far more objectionable in its views than Odd Future. I think it's interesting because it can reveal certain uncomfortable truths about the relation of fringe mindsets in society to mainstream/common views.

edit: to elaborate, I think fans of Odd Future think that acknowledgement that Odd Future's implicit stance on women/homosexuals/whoever is problematic is mutually exclusive with appreciating their creative output, and I don't think that's the case at all. But I do think that taking that stance as an indulgence, an opportunity to earnestly express despicable views without ever reflecting on the issues with those views, is a problem.

het fucked around with this message at May 17, 2011 around 06:07

# ¿ May 17, 2011 06:02

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

Noktorn posted:

it'd be a pretty hard sell to suggest that Whitehouse isn't really just as bad as it seems at face value. I listen to them when I want to hear something totally irredeemable and I've never heard them state at any point, such as in an interview, that their views aren't to be taken for what they are, though I could conceive of them just being artistic social commentary. Still, them working with Peter Sotos (who from everything I've seen is just as big a piece of human poo poo as he appears to be) casts some suspicion on them. Still, if you have any interviews with them or anything, I'd be happy to read them.

Offtopic at this point, but I would not mistake them for "good" people (I listened to the titular Peter Sotos sound collage off of Bird Seed once and that's about my fill for a lifetime), but the ways in which they aren't good can be interesting and informative.

Not an interview, but William Bennett of Whitehouse does have a blog, I think this entry where he writes responses to letters submitted to tabloid advice columns gives a good example of how he can say horrible things in an interesting way: http://williambennett.blogspot.com/...-william-5.html

# ¿ May 17, 2011 15:29

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

Gaupo Guacho posted:

What kind of music are you referring to because outside of White Nationalist music I can't think of stuff more objectionable than Odd Future given that Earl and Tyler rap about surprise sex on literally every single track.

Basically what we talked about, power electronics stuff like Whitehouse or Sutcliffe Jugend, Bodychoke, etc.. They're about violence and surprise sex too, but the difference is that they take it pretty seriously and it's more seriously trying to inhabit the mind of someone who would do these awful things, whereas Odd Future just comes off like the general juvenile misogynistic fantasies and attitudes that you would expect from teenage boys.

# ¿ May 18, 2011 17:46

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

The_Rob posted:

to the people who says it sounds like ICP. Have you ever listened to ICP at all?

Yes.

I don't think it "sounds like" ICP in the sense of the beats or the flow obviously, the production is far different and the MCs don't really sound similar. But I definitely think that the appeal of violent fantasies, the misogyny, the homophobia, the general destructive impulses and misanthropy are things that Tyler definitely shares in common with ICP. People use the ICP comparison as a diss, which is understandable, but I think I think if you take away the makeup and the hucksterism, ICP seriously doesn't look much different from Tyler's stuff. I think Tyler partially gets more credit because he flirts with self-examination, but it just comes across as either mopey or self-indulgent to me (and regardless I think ICP had similar moments).

The_Rob posted:

I don't think Tyler and crew sound like horrorcore rappers though.

Conceptually they seem pretty drat similar, are you just talking about flow or production or what?

quote:

Rap has always had dark lyrics.

I'm not really sure what you're basing this on. I mean "dark" is incredibly vague; The Message could be considered dark because it talks about uncomfortable realities in society but it's hardly comparable to what we have here. Even with gangsta rap, where there's certainly a similar element of celebrating violent crime, I think that the attitudes are pretty distinctly different.

# ¿ May 30, 2011 19:58

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

Brett824 posted:

I think it's incredibly dismissive to call Tyler's self-examination "mopey" and "self-indulgent" when Goblin is entirely built around the framing device of an internal therapist session. The violence and misanthropy are, in many instances, used as imagery to further the purpose of Tyler's examination of himself. Tron Cat is a song about surprise sex and killing people and etc, but within the context of an album it's Tyler telling Dr TC (or his "therapist") about how ridiculous some of the stuff he feels inside and wants to rap about is and ultimately how sad it makes him feel and how contradictory it is to his true self.

e: I have nothing to say about the comparison to ICP because tbqh I don't know poo poo about ICP, but dismissing his self awareness is dismissing what Goblin is entirely about in the end.

Right, but I think he's basically saying "hey I have these sick twisted fantasies and impulses and they're problems" but I don't think he _acts_ like they're problems. He's not fighting his demons, he's indulging them. I think it's just shallow lip service played so he can seem conflicted while sincerely indulging in this penchant for hosed up poo poo.

Actually, I should back up. I'll admit, I've listened to the album a few times but I haven't gone over it with a fine-toothed comb. So perhaps if I were to examine it much more closely (admittedly unlikely) I might change my mind (though the above analysis is definitely the impression I came away with). But the thing is, what I see in Tyler is what I see generally in a lot of Odd Future fans (more the ones Tyler's age). The framing device doesn't just allow Tyler to indulge, it allows the fans to indulge too.

Haledjian posted:

I think the important different is that ICP cannot rap and the Odd Future kids can.

No doubt, but I think the important similarity gets overlooked because of that.

# ¿ May 31, 2011 02:48

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

Brett824 posted:

I really think people are overly dismissive of Tyler because of his age and his fanbase. Listening to the album on the surface 2 or 3 times it really might seem like he's indulging in sick poo poo, but I really feel like once you listen to it more you appreciate just how conflicted he is. Throughout Goblin he constantly vents his raw emotion about the turn his career as taken and how people view it and how he has or will change. By framing his "horrorcore" elements the way he does, he IS acknowledging it as a problem. By bookending a song like Tron Cat with

and

he does as much as he possibly can to show the song as conflicting, not indulging.

Oh I would definitely take issue with that. I would in fact say that in that example you cite, he does as little as he can get away with in order to still sell it as "conflicted". There's no analysis, all it is is "some hosed up poo poo goes through my brain" followed by "Yeah that's hosed up". This is exactly what I mean when I say his self-examination is shallow.

Haledjian posted:

The makeup of the fanbases seems pretty different too, maybe because of the OF emphasis on skateboards and streetwear and poo poo, I dunno.

The fanbases are both sexually-frustrated misanthropic suburban males in their teens or early 20s, no? Admittedly, that's somewhat simplistic, but aside from somewhat different focuses like the skateboarding, etc., that's sort of the fundamental mindset they're going to connect with the most, right?

alansmithee posted:

Like, I think people put far more effort trying to decode what he says than effort was made in saying it, or for that matter than is really worth bothering.

Eh, perhaps.

Harley C posted:

Yeah I completely get what het is talking about. The general theme of 'bad things' shared between two different musical groups aimed at different target audiences draws massive similarities between the groups. Like that they both dress in certain ways different to the way other people dress. If you strip away all the differences between the groups except for the things that are similar then it is appears that they are similar.

That's a pretty stupidly reductive way of reading my posts, thanks!

# ¿ May 31, 2011 15:53

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

Diar posted:

Yeah, I'm pretty much with you on all of that.

# ¿ May 31, 2011 17:20

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

Jeff Wiiver posted:

Just a reminder that Lil Wayne accidentally shot himself in the chest as a teenager. He was re-enacting the "you looking at me?" scene from Taxi.

Yeah, Judd Hirsch won an Emmy for that.

# ¿ Jun 30, 2011 03:58

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

Dr. Video Games 0093 posted:

Okay, "The Internet Rap Community". Whatever.

Or, you know, Entertainment Weekly in 1995. Those loving hipsters. I bet they deliberately planned that in advance to make you feel silly on the Internet in 2011. That would be a really hipster thing to do.

# ¿ Jul 24, 2011 22:07

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

RollingBoBo posted:

everyone's jumping on him because he uses the word hipster but if you remove it from his post he has a good point that no one responded to

I don't think it was a good point at all, really. It's only a "label-fest" if you're largely ignorant of the broader context of what's being discussed. I mean, I can understand being less than keen on the word "horrorcore" (or "backpacker") but it's not like we can't see how they apply to OF, right?

I think it would have been more interesting to examine how/why those labels are considered negative, or why Gaspar Lewis's characterization was or wasn't fair/accurate. But throwing a tantrum because people use words you don't know is really the least interesting thing for discussion.

# ¿ Jul 25, 2011 16:28

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

alansmithee posted:

OF isn't "backpacker" at all fwiw. And the whole label thing isn't something I've seen much inside the actual rap community (unless you are just calling regions labels but that's a whole different dynamic).

Yeah that's not backpacker at all.

I think the backpacker association is maybe marginal but can definitely see where it comes from. Pop culture references, particularly ones that call back to childhood, are certainly something I would associate with that label. That said, it's not difficult to come up with examples of "mainstream" acts that make similar references, which is why I would say it's marginal.

quote:

As for the second part, horrorcore is considered juvenile and not "black" and has an innate association with ICP.

Eh I think that's kind of a retcon, re: not "black"; the first artist almost anyone mentions is Gravediggaz.

quote:

Also I'd wager that the average Juggalo is a bigger rap fan than 95% of people here.

Factually I think the 95% number is off but I agree with the implied sentiment that Juggalos are marginalized when they generally enjoy far more hip hop than just ICP or Psychopathic Records artists.

# ¿ Jul 26, 2011 05:06

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

Dr. Video Games 0093 posted:

Well, let me clarify myself then. I do see where both labels can be applied to Odd Future, though I wouldn't use them myself. When I see "backpacker" I think of a smug, white college kid finding his first Atmosphere album and decrying all rap that's about "guns, bling and bitches".

It's interesting that you mention Atmosphere because despite obvious outward differences, I think Tyler and Slug definitely have some common elements like self-examination/self-pity/self-hatred and issues with women.

That said, Gaspar Lewis's "backpacker" comment was drawn from pop culture references, so think of it less as the dude trying to sell you on Atmosphere and more the dude trying to sell you on Del.

quote:

Reading "horrorcore" just struck me in that context as a flippant label for violent lyrical content, and subsequently marginalizing it as inherently immature.

I think there's more to it than that, but I think you're right that there's the implication of a certain immaturity or lack of depth.

# ¿ Jul 26, 2011 18:11

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

Wafflecop posted:

How does it feel being a rap hipster? "I don't like these dudes, they're too backpacker, I mean, they've got too many pop-culture references. I'mma go listen to some real hip-hop" - Basically what Gaspar Lewis is saying aka what a backpacker would say

Being someone who uses the word "hipster" as an insult is way more embarrassing than being called a hipster btw.

Gaspar Lewis posted:

When it's 90s kids' cartoons on a repeated basis across multiple songs, yeah kind of a little bit.

Let's get away from the "Is Odd Future backpacker" discussion, since it's clearly not productive and it's just dancing around the actual issue. Like I can't tell if you're trying to say that making pop culture references is specifically a bad thing or if you think it's just incongruous with Odd Future's image or what. What's the point you're trying to make?

edit:

Lazer Viking posted:

I remember the days of being able to enjoy music because I liked it and didn't have to defend it to people on the internet.

You still can. You don't have to. Nobody's holding a gun to your head forcing you to read the thread.

# ¿ Jul 28, 2011 16:23

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

x TOMMYBOY x posted:

uhh well is that not what you were getting at? them rapping about surprise sex = them promoting the acceptance of surprise sex in culture, and, in the end increasing the amount of actual surprise sex that goes on? if not then feel free to clarify

It's really disingenuous to say that iron chic was implying OF is "exclusively" (your word) responsible for people's lax attitudes towards surprise sex, and I'm pretty sure you know that. If you want to make a serious argument, fine, but don't argue with bullshit like that.

My take is that OF does have latent misogyny and tries to gloss over it by exaggerating it to the point that they can go "Oh well that's obviously ridiculous, nobody would sincerely advocate this". And don't get me wrong, this is in no way unique to Odd Future, there's plenty of rap artists ("backpacker" and otherwise) that engage in this, but that doesn't make it any less of a valid criticism. When Big L used surprise sex as a punchline numerous times, that was just as detestable. But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy other aspects of his raps, because he was an incredibly talented artist.

I think the key here is that you're allowed to enjoy the music of artists whose morals/ethics/politics are in question (if you weren't, there would be precious little to listen to), but we should at least be adults and recognize the problems that do exist. Basically, if you like Odd Future, that's not a bad thing, but if you like them because you think surprise sex is hilarious, that is a bad thing, sorry.

edit: hilariously, I mentioned Big L before seeing dethkon's reply, I'm guessing we both had Big L on the brain from the hip hop thread. Anyway:

dethkon posted:

In my opinion the number of people who are going to be raped or who will think surprise sex to be more acceptable as a result of listening to a few tracks off of Earl or Tyler's album has got to be approaching zero. I also don't think that anyone is in danger of having other violent acts committed against them because of OF, with the exception of Frank Ocean and Chris Brown getting into a fight.

One white man calling a black man "boy" in a vacuum is meaningless. If it is endemic in society, it's institutional racism, do you see what I mean?

OF's use of surprise sex imagery would be just insensitive if it weren't for the fact that surprise sex is downplayed in society so much. It's notoriously difficult to convict for, surprise sex survivors often don't come forward because of societal pressures, and rapists continue to surprise sex; it's a serious problem. And the thing is, I don't think they really take it seriously. It's not an examination of the problem, an examination of the psyche that really plays into surprise sex in real life, it's just subconscious adolescent misogyny played out in raps.

I'll be honest, as a moderator it would be a gently caress of a lot easier to moderate this thread if OF fans didn't argue this point. You can enjoy Odd Future and not endorse surprise sex culture, but if you're going to insist that they play no part in it, I'm certainly not going to discourage anyone from pointing out the fact that they do, or from arguing back when people say they don't.

# ¿ Jul 29, 2011 04:33

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

eilios posted:

I don't listen to Odd Future because of the surprise sex references, I listen to Odd Future in spite of the surprise sex references.

Right, that seems like a reasonable perspective to take to me.

dethkon posted:

Or could it be they aren't a problem OR a solution, but instead a product of it?

Well I think the thing is they can be both a product of it and a problem. Being a product of it (which they undoubtedly are) doesn't really absolve them of anything.

quote:

So I just want to make sure: nobody said or is saying that OF is literally, directly responsible for the surprise sex of anybody in the real world, right? Because that's what seemed so ridiculous that it got me to post in the first place.

I think the problem is that it's (obviously) not that Odd Future is directly causing a specific person to get raped, but that any contribution to surprise sex culture is a negative, and surprise sex culture does result in more people being raped. I think that if everyone understands that these are problems with an artist, and approaches them with that as a caveat, it's certainly acceptable to enjoy their music. But the important thing is to recognize that caveat, rather than ignore it, which is what a lot of people do with stuff like "Oh well all I know is I like the music".

Fundamentally, I want NMD to be the sort of place where people go "I understand that problem with the music, but I enjoy the music anyway" instead of "I enjoy the music and therefore don't want to think about any problems with it".

# ¿ Jul 29, 2011 05:12

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

Gaspar Lewis posted:

No difference between comparing yourself of Tony Montana and namedropping Reptar.

Right. Okay.

Could you actually respond to this before making any more snarky comments?

het posted:

Let's get away from the "Is Odd Future backpacker" discussion, since it's clearly not productive and it's just dancing around the actual issue. Like I can't tell if you're trying to say that making pop culture references is specifically a bad thing or if you think it's just incongruous with Odd Future's image or what. What's the point you're trying to make?

# ¿ Jul 30, 2011 04:41

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

Gaspar Lewis posted:

There's nothing wrong with making cultural references at all, that would be ridiculous.

But there's definitely something to be gleaned about which references an artist chooses to make, both about what the artist considers important as touchstones in their own life and/or what his audience should be able to recognize and relate to. If you're making an aside about Prof. Lipschitz, you're probably expecting a lot of your fans to be people who know who that is.

Things like that might seem to clash with the more graphic twists the lyrics might take, but they aren't incongruous with Tyler's image, they're an integral part of it. Remember how he's a walking paradox?

Fine, but this isn't like "backpacker" hip hop artists where I see a lot of people going "Cool, he's referencing <thing I'm familiar with>, that's why I like this". I mean, I'm not saying that that isn't an implicit part of his appeal, but compared to would-be "backpacker" artists whose appeal is very significantly based off of such things, that seems to be an ancillary aspect.

I see that you're saying that the pop culture references play into his "walking paradox" thing but it seems like you're still avoiding explicitly actually condemning it and explaining why it would be a bad thing or worth mocking.

# ¿ Jul 30, 2011 05:52

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

Gaspar Lewis posted:

So where does watching Adventure Time fit into the puzzle? At first blush my instinct was that it was the kind of reference made to pander; "getting high and watching cartoons" is old as a trope as time, and I'm reconsidering my position (being wrong isn't a sin), but still.

IM DAY DAY IRL posted:

Yeah, gently caress that guy for judging them on their lyrical content and calculated personas. What a scrub, why can't he just truly appreciate them for ignorantly toying with social taboos.

This poo poo is getting annoying. If you want to make a real argument, make it, but we don't need this sarcastic bullshit. If you don't like OF, and you're not willing to post intelligently about it, just stop posting in this thread.

# ¿ Jul 30, 2011 07:21

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

IM DAY DAY IRL posted:

I didn't know how you guys would manage to make this thread dumber than a rap vs. hip-hop debate but you've somehow managed to do it thanks to the incorrect use of the word irony and hipster discussion. Way to go, fellas!

Gaspar Lewis posted:

Hahahaha, your friend was right and you're not.

You know, at least according to a pretty well-accepted definition set by one of the most important figures in rap history:

Okay, to both of you: shut the gently caress up and stop posting here.

You had chances to not poo poo post and all either of you have done of late is just snide taunting. gently caress off.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2011 00:59

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

eilios posted:

That bands/artists sell out too easily, etc. I thought it was fairly common knowledge.

"hipster" has a ridiculously broad set of cases in which it's used, and in a lot of cases they're ridiculous caricatures. I'm not keen on the word because it really obscures meaning and makes communication difficult (this particular case is a good example). I find it's useful to clarify what you mean by specifically avoiding words like that.

I can see why Tyler would understandably be upset if people were explicitly saying they didn't want OF to become popular for fear of the music changing/declining, but I don't think that makes those people necessarily "hipsters". It's maybe kind of rude/disrespectful to the artist, but it's not like there aren't plenty of examples in the music industry of artists who start with something special and when they gain greater notoriety, their sound changes in a way that their initial fans don't like.

Of course, in Odd Future's case, I think that if they continued down the path of "eternal underground cult group", that's sort of how things went for ICP, and I think OF is capable of a lot more than that.

Threatis posted:

I'm kind of wondering how that makes someone a hipster, and not every human being out there. We all want to feel like we're part of a secret exclusive club, and we want the things we like to be "ours".

Eh, I guess. There's certainly people I know where if they started liking certain bands, I would get sick of talking about/hearing about those bands really goddamn quickly, that's for sure.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2011 01:27

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

MC Fruit Stripe posted:

No one is willing to read your post because you didn't extend us the basic courtesy of communicating properly.

Actually, I read it, but I can't honestly believe someone would say this on Something Awful:

warzero. posted:

i don't think i've heard a surprise sex joke, period.

If you've been an active member of this site for 4 years and claim you've never heard a surprise sex joke, I don't think you even exist in the same universe as the rest of us, so I'm not sure we can discuss anything.

Also, echoing what everyone else said, find your shift key and use paragraph breaks.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2011 21:21

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

MC Fruit Stripe posted:

Re: the casual use of surprise sex

As a typical adult male, I watch sports. If one team beats another by a significant margin, it is customary to state that "they got killed." Occasionally, this can be "they got raped." Killing is worse than surprise sex, but why am I slightly offended by "they got raped", yet don't even notice "they got killed"?

An answer to this is very long and complex and could probably spawn an entire thread devoted specifically to this question in D&D, but I would like to cut this general topic of "But isn't murder worse than surprise sex?" short right here.

edit: I realize that that seems to be a significant thing to declare off-limits, it's just that I've seen that particular point derail many threads in the past, so I want to nip it in the bud. Feel free to AIM or PM me if you want to discuss it further.

het fucked around with this message at Aug 3, 2011 around 01:01

# ¿ Aug 3, 2011 00:54

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

Chade Johnson posted:

Hip-hop is stuff I like rap is stuff you like

It's really funny how everyone seemed to miss the fact that he was saying the exact opposite of this!

# ¿ Aug 4, 2011 17:13

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

Boywhiz88 posted:

Have you ever listened to Big Black? Steve Albini has no place to talk. Jordan, Minnesota is all about child surprise sex.

All the same, I can imagine that it can be annoying but still, he needs to get off his high horse.

My understanding Albini's complaints about them weren't that they used surprise sex imagery, it's that they were just being juvenile assholes, which is sort of par for the course for OF. Don't get me wrong, Albini undoubtedly had a sneering punk "gently caress you" attitude when he was their age too, so it's a bit hypocritical (and I won't touch on his wording which was poorly chosen to say the least), but pointing out that Albini wrote songs that included violent sexual subjects is really missing the point.

# ¿ Aug 13, 2011 03:59

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

liquid courage posted:

Not trying to derail the thread, but while we're on the topic of racism, I feel like this quote elucidates an interesting facet of the conversation. The "oh, we're not glorifying X(racism, sexism, homophobia, etc.), we're calling it out" defense. I feel that this is deeply problematic. It reminds me of how many punks wear anti-Nazi patches, (I'm sure many have seen this, the most common design is a swastika with a bar through it). It's as though many people think you can localize power and discrimination to a time or place... as if racism or sexism or homophobia aren't problems that continue to exist today. But perhaps most problematically is that it attempts to place these articulations of hate outside of the individual, thus stripping them of any responsibility to reflect upon their own privilege (the "I can't be a ______, I'm wearing my anti-______ patch!")

I really don't understand how this pertains to any of the artists in question. I mean, I think it's sort of implicit (and maybe this is just the way I interpret the music) that there's a definite identification with the subject of these sorts of songs. I think it's sort of a shallow defense when Tyler spins it this way, but he's not trying to distance himself from his material like it didn't come out of his head; he's playing up the "This is hosed up stuff that goes through my head" angle, he does own it. The thing is he just doesn't follow through with the self-examination.

Similarly, I don't think anyone is looking at Albini's or Peter Sotos's stuff as like existing in a different world or era, I think it's supposed to exist in our world and it's supposed to make us feel uncomfortable for the fact that it is coming from a real place, it's not just a made-up story.

In either case I don't think it's necessarily an excuse. I don't think it's trying to deny that these problems don't exist in reality, but I think it does perhaps try to take the tack of "Well that's just my/my subject's hosed up subconscious". With Tyler I think he tries to play it off like that doesn't bleed over; with the more provocative artists, I think the implication is that it does bleed over, and that's what's so unsettling about it.

Happy Hippo posted:

Between this exchange and a look at your rap sheet it's clear that there's no point in trying to exchange ideas with you so let's just agree to ignore each other.

I've disagreed a lot with alansmithee in the past (because he's an inveterate troll), but I have to share his feeling that there is (what should be) an incredibly obvious distinction between a black kid saying "nigga" and a white middle-aged guy supposedly quoting him and transliterating that to "friend of the family". Honestly I've been really shocked that more people haven't acknowledged that (not in this thread, but all over).

# ¿ Aug 14, 2011 05:44

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

Argali posted:

I think including Sotos in the mix here doesn't make much sense. You can compare Albini and Tyler in several ways, but neither one of them has published entire novels that revolve around first-person, advocated child surprise sex/torture/murder. That Albini glosses Sotos over the way he does says something, I think. In fact I've always wondered why Albini has been so free to associate with Sotos, like writing back cover copy for Total Abuse.

Honestly I'd rather cite Bodychoke as an example than Sotos, I was only mentioning him because Albini did.

# ¿ Aug 16, 2011 04:29

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

Cwapface posted:

nor am I saying that Odd Future have a similar level of self-awareness

This is precisely the reason the Warhol comparison doesn't make sense, though.

quote:

In terms of social harm, I'm not sure where Odd Future's works depart ethically from, say, those of The Three Stooges.

People trying to quantify the exact amount that Odd Future has hurt society are missing the point. The amount of one artist's contribution to systemic problems is less of a problem than just the fact that they unabashedly contribute to them.

quote:

I really do have to look at the cover of the Beatles' Yesterday and Today and wonder if this outrage isn't maybe just slightly lacking in circumspection and a sense of the history of art and politics.

I've gotta say, all of the examples of other artists you mentioned in this post are really awful analogies. What has OF done that has a social message that's comparable to the Yesterday and Today cover?

# ¿ Aug 19, 2011 15:23

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

alansmithee posted:

I'll admit I've never been a big Beetles fan but in hindsight I really think a lot of the music people point to as having vast social messages from the 60's/70's is really overblown w/r/t any sort of coherent message. I mean a reasonable argument could be made that based on some interviews he's given and the contents of the music Tyler does have a social message in his music.

That and Carl's comments notwithstanding, there's nothing that even really plays at being high-minded about a social issue, is there? At best Tyler's doing personal introspective poo poo that could maybe be extrapolated out to the fans who relate to his stuff, but at that point anything anyone could relate to is a "social message".

# ¿ Aug 19, 2011 19:05

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

Cwapface posted:

I'm not saying they are, but that it seems inconsistent to be outraged by Odd Future for perpetuating surprise sex culture, but not extend that same outrage to Quentin Tarantino for perpetuating a violent gun culture.

How is this argument any different from the "Well after you're raped, you're still alive, so it seems like murder is at least as bad if not worse than surprise sex, shouldn't we be more angry about them talking about murder??" argument that I specifically asked people to drop?

# ¿ Aug 20, 2011 17:57

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

Cwapface posted:

If it makes it easier to understand, what I'm questioning is why Odd Future are a problem re: surprise sex culture but Pepe le Pew isn't. Why are these kids the object of so much ire and cries for art to be socially accountable when zero fucks are given about so many other uses of imagery which could just as easily be argued to be perpetuating cultural aspects we don't like?

For a couple reasons, but mostly because nobody's held up Pepe le Pew or The Three Stooges or whatever as displaying some insight into the darker realms of the human psyche. If OF were just received like, say, ICP, rather than getting profiles in the New York Times and stuff, it wouldn't be such an issue.

(That said, it would still be a valid topic; we are not obligated to exhaust every other artist worth criticizing before getting to Odd Future, we can point out problems with art when we see them).

# ¿ Aug 22, 2011 15:01

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# ¿ May 19, 2013 12:15

het: Nov 14, 2002; the most metal mod ever

It will never cease to amaze me the qualities that people will attribute to "hipsters"

# ¿ Sep 26, 2011 22:30

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > No Music Discussion > Odd Future