Splits posted:

Louis CK said it all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-otAJrtY-w

Sandwolf posted:

He's not saying "KILL FAGGOTS, gently caress SPICS, BURN WHITEY," he's just loving exclaiming. Pull the dicks out of your rear end you bleeding-heart faggots.

dirtysammiches posted:

I think this discussion belongs in D&D more than NMD.

quote:

That said, I don't think it's unreasonable for people to want to reappropriate offensive words so that they mean nothing (like "nigga" for example).

quote:

enjoyable human being is still a pretty bad term, so Tyler uses it to shock his audience. The shock approach is nothing that hasn't been done before in other forms of music and has yet to cause any detrimental harm to society.

quote:

Truthfully, I'd rather spend my time speaking out against countries in which homosexuality is punishable by death than worrying about the what some kid says in his song.

dirtysammiches posted:

At this point this whole thread has become a hub for people who don't like odd future to try and troll those who do.

Ruckby posted:

Those dumb lesbians were asking for it by trying to co-opt the success of a noble artist and use it for their own sinful ends.

Sharks Eat Bear posted:

Yes, maybe you can spout racist and homophobic poo poo without actually being a racist or a homophobe, but then you're just an rear end in a top hat that can't even be pitied for being ignorant.

Nawid posted:

As someone who likes Odd Future, you can't deny Tyler and Co. are loving assholes. They absolutely are. So why do we have a debate?

Noktorn posted:

it'd be a pretty hard sell to suggest that Whitehouse isn't really just as bad as it seems at face value. I listen to them when I want to hear something totally irredeemable and I've never heard them state at any point, such as in an interview, that their views aren't to be taken for what they are, though I could conceive of them just being artistic social commentary. Still, them working with Peter Sotos (who from everything I've seen is just as big a piece of human poo poo as he appears to be) casts some suspicion on them. Still, if you have any interviews with them or anything, I'd be happy to read them.

Gaupo Guacho posted:

What kind of music are you referring to because outside of White Nationalist music I can't think of stuff more objectionable than Odd Future given that Earl and Tyler rap about surprise sex on literally every single track.

The_Rob posted:

to the people who says it sounds like ICP. Have you ever listened to ICP at all?

The_Rob posted:

I don't think Tyler and crew sound like horrorcore rappers though.

quote:

Rap has always had dark lyrics.

Brett824 posted:

I think it's incredibly dismissive to call Tyler's self-examination "mopey" and "self-indulgent" when Goblin is entirely built around the framing device of an internal therapist session. The violence and misanthropy are, in many instances, used as imagery to further the purpose of Tyler's examination of himself. Tron Cat is a song about surprise sex and killing people and etc, but within the context of an album it's Tyler telling Dr TC (or his "therapist") about how ridiculous some of the stuff he feels inside and wants to rap about is and ultimately how sad it makes him feel and how contradictory it is to his true self.

e: I have nothing to say about the comparison to ICP because tbqh I don't know poo poo about ICP, but dismissing his self awareness is dismissing what Goblin is entirely about in the end.

Haledjian posted:

I think the important different is that ICP cannot rap and the Odd Future kids can.

Brett824 posted:

I really think people are overly dismissive of Tyler because of his age and his fanbase. Listening to the album on the surface 2 or 3 times it really might seem like he's indulging in sick poo poo, but I really feel like once you listen to it more you appreciate just how conflicted he is. Throughout Goblin he constantly vents his raw emotion about the turn his career as taken and how people view it and how he has or will change. By framing his "horrorcore" elements the way he does, he IS acknowledging it as a problem. By bookending a song like Tron Cat with


and


he does as much as he possibly can to show the song as conflicting, not indulging.

Haledjian posted:

The makeup of the fanbases seems pretty different too, maybe because of the OF emphasis on skateboards and streetwear and poo poo, I dunno.

alansmithee posted:

Like, I think people put far more effort trying to decode what he says than effort was made in saying it, or for that matter than is really worth bothering.

Harley C posted:

Yeah I completely get what het is talking about. The general theme of 'bad things' shared between two different musical groups aimed at different target audiences draws massive similarities between the groups. Like that they both dress in certain ways different to the way other people dress. If you strip away all the differences between the groups except for the things that are similar then it is appears that they are similar.

Diar posted:

Jeff Wiiver posted:

Just a reminder that Lil Wayne accidentally shot himself in the chest as a teenager. He was re-enacting the "you looking at me?" scene from Taxi.

Dr. Video Games 0093 posted:

Okay, "The Internet Rap Community". Whatever.

RollingBoBo posted:

everyone's jumping on him because he uses the word hipster but if you remove it from his post he has a good point that no one responded to

alansmithee posted:

OF isn't "backpacker" at all fwiw. And the whole label thing isn't something I've seen much inside the actual rap community (unless you are just calling regions labels but that's a whole different dynamic).

Yeah that's not backpacker at all.

quote:

As for the second part, horrorcore is considered juvenile and not "black" and has an innate association with ICP.

quote:

Also I'd wager that the average Juggalo is a bigger rap fan than 95% of people here.

Dr. Video Games 0093 posted:

Well, let me clarify myself then. I do see where both labels can be applied to Odd Future, though I wouldn't use them myself. When I see "backpacker" I think of a smug, white college kid finding his first Atmosphere album and decrying all rap that's about "guns, bling and bitches".

quote:

Reading "horrorcore" just struck me in that context as a flippant label for violent lyrical content, and subsequently marginalizing it as inherently immature.

Wafflecop posted:

How does it feel being a rap hipster? "I don't like these dudes, they're too backpacker, I mean, they've got too many pop-culture references. I'mma go listen to some real hip-hop" - Basically what Gaspar Lewis is saying aka what a backpacker would say

Gaspar Lewis posted:

When it's 90s kids' cartoons on a repeated basis across multiple songs, yeah kind of a little bit.

Lazer Viking posted:

I remember the days of being able to enjoy music because I liked it and didn't have to defend it to people on the internet.

x TOMMYBOY x posted:

uhh well is that not what you were getting at? them rapping about surprise sex = them promoting the acceptance of surprise sex in culture, and, in the end increasing the amount of actual surprise sex that goes on? if not then feel free to clarify

dethkon posted:

In my opinion the number of people who are going to be raped or who will think surprise sex to be more acceptable as a result of listening to a few tracks off of Earl or Tyler's album has got to be approaching zero. I also don't think that anyone is in danger of having other violent acts committed against them because of OF, with the exception of Frank Ocean and Chris Brown getting into a fight.

eilios posted:

I don't listen to Odd Future because of the surprise sex references, I listen to Odd Future in spite of the surprise sex references.

dethkon posted:

Or could it be they aren't a problem OR a solution, but instead a product of it?

quote:

So I just want to make sure: nobody said or is saying that OF is literally, directly responsible for the surprise sex of anybody in the real world, right? Because that's what seemed so ridiculous that it got me to post in the first place.

Gaspar Lewis posted:

No difference between comparing yourself of Tony Montana and namedropping Reptar.

Right. Okay.

het posted:

Let's get away from the "Is Odd Future backpacker" discussion, since it's clearly not productive and it's just dancing around the actual issue. Like I can't tell if you're trying to say that making pop culture references is specifically a bad thing or if you think it's just incongruous with Odd Future's image or what. What's the point you're trying to make?

Gaspar Lewis posted:

There's nothing wrong with making cultural references at all, that would be ridiculous.

But there's definitely something to be gleaned about which references an artist chooses to make, both about what the artist considers important as touchstones in their own life and/or what his audience should be able to recognize and relate to. If you're making an aside about Prof. Lipschitz, you're probably expecting a lot of your fans to be people who know who that is.

Things like that might seem to clash with the more graphic twists the lyrics might take, but they aren't incongruous with Tyler's image, they're an integral part of it. Remember how he's a walking paradox?

Gaspar Lewis posted:

So where does watching Adventure Time fit into the puzzle? At first blush my instinct was that it was the kind of reference made to pander; "getting high and watching cartoons" is old as a trope as time, and I'm reconsidering my position (being wrong isn't a sin), but still.

IM DAY DAY IRL posted:

Yeah, gently caress that guy for judging them on their lyrical content and calculated personas. What a scrub, why can't he just truly appreciate them for ignorantly toying with social taboos.

IM DAY DAY IRL posted:

I didn't know how you guys would manage to make this thread dumber than a rap vs. hip-hop debate but you've somehow managed to do it thanks to the incorrect use of the word irony and hipster discussion. Way to go, fellas!

Gaspar Lewis posted:

Hahahaha, your friend was right and you're not.

You know, at least according to a pretty well-accepted definition set by one of the most important figures in rap history:

eilios posted:

That bands/artists sell out too easily, etc. I thought it was fairly common knowledge.

Threatis posted:

I'm kind of wondering how that makes someone a hipster, and not every human being out there. We all want to feel like we're part of a secret exclusive club, and we want the things we like to be "ours".

MC Fruit Stripe posted:

No one is willing to read your post because you didn't extend us the basic courtesy of communicating properly.

warzero. posted:

i don't think i've heard a surprise sex joke, period.

MC Fruit Stripe posted:

Re: the casual use of surprise sex

As a typical adult male, I watch sports. If one team beats another by a significant margin, it is customary to state that "they got killed." Occasionally, this can be "they got raped." Killing is worse than surprise sex, but why am I slightly offended by "they got raped", yet don't even notice "they got killed"?

Chade Johnson posted:

Hip-hop is stuff I like rap is stuff you like

Boywhiz88 posted:

Have you ever listened to Big Black? Steve Albini has no place to talk. Jordan, Minnesota is all about child surprise sex.

All the same, I can imagine that it can be annoying but still, he needs to get off his high horse.

liquid courage posted:

Not trying to derail the thread, but while we're on the topic of racism, I feel like this quote elucidates an interesting facet of the conversation. The "oh, we're not glorifying X(racism, sexism, homophobia, etc.), we're calling it out" defense. I feel that this is deeply problematic. It reminds me of how many punks wear anti-Nazi patches, (I'm sure many have seen this, the most common design is a swastika with a bar through it). It's as though many people think you can localize power and discrimination to a time or place... as if racism or sexism or homophobia aren't problems that continue to exist today. But perhaps most problematically is that it attempts to place these articulations of hate outside of the individual, thus stripping them of any responsibility to reflect upon their own privilege (the "I can't be a ______, I'm wearing my anti-______ patch!")

Happy Hippo posted:

Between this exchange and a look at your rap sheet it's clear that there's no point in trying to exchange ideas with you so let's just agree to ignore each other.

Argali posted:

I think including Sotos in the mix here doesn't make much sense. You can compare Albini and Tyler in several ways, but neither one of them has published entire novels that revolve around first-person, advocated child surprise sex/torture/murder. That Albini glosses Sotos over the way he does says something, I think. In fact I've always wondered why Albini has been so free to associate with Sotos, like writing back cover copy for Total Abuse.

Cwapface posted:

nor am I saying that Odd Future have a similar level of self-awareness

quote:

In terms of social harm, I'm not sure where Odd Future's works depart ethically from, say, those of The Three Stooges.

quote:

I really do have to look at the cover of the Beatles' Yesterday and Today and wonder if this outrage isn't maybe just slightly lacking in circumspection and a sense of the history of art and politics.

alansmithee posted:

I'll admit I've never been a big Beetles fan but in hindsight I really think a lot of the music people point to as having vast social messages from the 60's/70's is really overblown w/r/t any sort of coherent message. I mean a reasonable argument could be made that based on some interviews he's given and the contents of the music Tyler does have a social message in his music.

Cwapface posted:

I'm not saying they are, but that it seems inconsistent to be outraged by Odd Future for perpetuating surprise sex culture, but not extend that same outrage to Quentin Tarantino for perpetuating a violent gun culture.

Cwapface posted:

If it makes it easier to understand, what I'm questioning is why Odd Future are a problem re: surprise sex culture but Pepe le Pew isn't. Why are these kids the object of so much ire and cries for art to be socially accountable when zero fucks are given about so many other uses of imagery which could just as easily be argued to be perpetuating cultural aspects we don't like?