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With Precursor Golem, keep in mind that removal is only copied due to an ability on the first card, so if you have a sacrifice outlet or just want to send one guy in to see if they blink, send the original guy in rather than the copies.
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Nov 24, 2010 05:17
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MizuZero posted:I really enjoyed Rise as a draft format, but I can only think of three cards that fluctuate wildly in value depending on if you were in their particular archetype: Venerated Teacher, Bloodthrone Vampire, and Vent Sentinel. Am I missing any egregious examples? Arguably Artisan of Kozilek and, to a lesser extent, Ulamog's Crusher too. A lot of cards also saw their power vary depending on what archetype you were facing - the removal in the format tended to be very good against either small dudes (Last Kiss, Forked Bolt, Puncturing Light, Staggershock Vendetta, Wrap in Flames) or big dudes (Narcolepsy, Guard Duty, Induce Despair), and you'd often side out removal that would have been premium against other decks, and there were cards like the Umbras or Guard Gomazoa that were blowouts against some decks but useless against others.
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Nov 24, 2010 05:19
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MizuZero posted:but he's Mythic, so he doesn't show up a lot. Sorry, when I discuss sealed, I'm pretty much always talking about the context of GPs and PTQs, which are the only times I play the format except for when practicing for these events. When you're at a PTQ with 250 or a GP with 1500 people not only are these cards going to be around in spades (you'll see them more and more if you win successive rounds), but you'll probably see or hear about a guy who got 1 and a foil one. With that many cards being opened someone gets the crazy nuts. --- People who don't think that sealed has a huge luck component don't play big events with 9-10 rounds. When I complain about sealed it's in reference to big events. I could give two shits about how it works on MODO or pre-releases where you play for 12 packs of whatever. If you have a lovely pool, it's not that hard to win out 4 rounds at a pre-release against many players who are probably worse than you -there might be 2-3 really strong pools, but those might also be opened by the kid who just started playing and thinks Alpha Tyrranax is better than Masticore. At a GP, there are going to be dozens of people who open sick pools, and they're going to be stronger players, who you'll have a more difficult time outplaying with your mediocre cards. The argument that pros (Gerry T at Nashville) win these things a lot overlooks something that I really haven't highlighted in my discussion here before. Pros have 3 loving byes. 3 byes. That is so ridiculously important that if you haven't done these sorts of events you can't really grasp it. When you play your 4 round MODO events and win with a middling pool against a field of 16 people, you have no clue what it's like to play 9 rounds against 1500 people. Patrick Chapin, who I hope we can agree is a good player, (He may not be the best technical player in the game, but he is very good, and better than anyone who posts here) finished GP Nashville with 15 points. This represents a 5-3 record (he dropped after his 3rd loss). 15 points is pretty good, if he could have won 2 more rounds he would have made day 2. The best player in our group also got 15 points, so he did as well as Chapin -only no at all. That guy had no buys and slogged through 8 of 9 rounds before his weekend was ended (he also had a strong pool that included masticore among other bomby cards). In reality Chapin went 2-3 and earned 6 points, he just got 9 points for showing up. If Chapin and the other poo poo ton of pros that didn't make day 2 have 9 points reduced from their records, they don't look that impressive. Note, I'm not complaining about byes. I think they're good for the game. But the certainly make pros look a lot better at GPs. Sealed breaks down as a format when you play a large number of rounds because the stronger decks eventually drift towards the top because there are enough strong players with strong decks that eventually beat our strong players with weak decks. As I repeat over and over, strong players with weak decks may have a very good chance of beating weak players with strong decks, but strong players with weak decks are generally hosed when they run into other strong players with strong decks. Byes give pros a better chance of making day 2 with a middling pool where they will play draft. This is a point I want to emphasize because, Wizards clearly doesn't see sealed as a format that demonstrates high level skill. There are no Pro Tours that feature sealed as a format. Sealed has no part of Worlds. Sealed doesn't even have a part in the second day of GPs or the Top 8 of PTQs where sealed is the format. Draft is a great format, it probably the most skill intensive format. There is greater variance than in constructed because you aren't making a deck with 4 copies of good cards, but you have an opportunity to make a deck that is on par with the other players at your table. Finally, Conrad Kolos sat across from me in deck construction at the GP, and after looking at his pool I would have put money down that with 3 byes that guys was making day 2. Similarly, if we had swapped pools, I would have put money down that he was not going to manage to pull it out. I'm not saying that I would make day 2, his pool was really strong, but he's still a better player than me. I'm saying that if he had my pool, I think his odds of making day 2 would be absurdly small. Karnegal fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Nov 24, 2010 |
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Nov 24, 2010 05:41
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Karnegal, I understand your problems with the format much better now than when the subject came up in the other thread, and I can't disagree with your analysis. Do you think the problem would be fixed if you had three or at least two different pools over the course of the day, instead of going nine rounds with the same pool?
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Nov 24, 2010 05:58
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Vanilla Bison posted:Karnegal, I understand your problems with the format much better now than when the subject came up in the other thread, and I can't disagree with your analysis. Do you think the problem would be fixed if you had three or at least two different pools over the course of the day, instead of going nine rounds with the same pool? Yes, this would improve the format wildly, but it would add another hour to events.
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Nov 24, 2010 06:10
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At what point should I just drop from a PTQ sealed if I'm trying to top8? Losing 2 games? 1?
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Nov 24, 2010 07:49
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atastypie posted:At what point should I just drop from a PTQ sealed if I'm trying to top8? Losing 2 games? 1? If you go X-1, you're definitely making top 8. If you go X-2, you probably won't, especially if you lose the 2 matches early on (because your tiebreakers will be way worse.) X-3 has no chance at all, ever. Definitely don't give up after 1 loss, definitely do give up after 3. If you lose 2, then you're probably not making it, but there's always a small chance.
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Nov 24, 2010 08:33
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atastypie posted:At what point should I just drop from a PTQ sealed if I'm trying to top8? Losing 2 games? 1? If you lose in round 1 and you don't feel like you got some bad beats but you have an incredibly strong deck, you can probably drop if you're trying to preserve rating. Realistically, you're probably not going to rally and win the day. If you think you had a bad break, you still probably won't Top 8 because your breakers will suck, but you can try to recoup points. If you're at a point where rating isn't an issue (say 1600-1700), then you can play it out as much as you want. Generally at a PTQ with 129+ people you're out at X-3. X-2 will usually be in. In extreme situations you can get in as an X-3, but you need to have been 5-1 or 4-1 before going to X-3. Otherwise your breakers probably won't be good enough.
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Nov 24, 2010 08:40
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I'm relatively new and only have a ~1700 rating, which I'm not really concerned about at this point. Thanks for clarifying the qualifying math for me!
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Nov 24, 2010 08:48
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Pretty Hat Machine posted:Really dumb people. Funny story - we do a casual draft once every month or so at a friend's place. Big melee of people, many of whom don't play magic all that much. There's a lot of table talk and chatter during it, some guys are much faster at picking than others, etc etc. Think beer and pretzels roleplaying, only with Magic. A Precursor Golem got cracked and it broke the guy who opened it - he spent like a minute and a half going "god this card is so weird, I just, this is so weird" and then he ended up passing it. It did more or less the same thing for two more people till it hit someone who knew the set who promptly snapped it up. And yeah, after seeing pro friends I know are much much better than that blow up horribly in drafts at Nashville I think this format is probably a little too swingy for its own good. It'll be interesting to see if Mirrodin Besieged adds consistency elements (cheap removal, more Scrapmelter-style 2for1s) or more of the same bomby all-or-nothingness.
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Nov 24, 2010 11:35
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Karnegal posted:Sorry, when I discuss sealed, I'm pretty much always talking about the context of GPs and PTQs, which are the only times I play the format except for when practicing for these events. When you're at a PTQ with 250 or a GP with 1500 people not only are these cards going to be around in spades (you'll see them more and more if you win successive rounds), but you'll probably see or hear about a guy who got 1 and a foil one. With that many cards being opened someone gets the crazy nuts. I agreed with you the last time this came up and I'll agree with you again. It helps that this post articulated the salient points of the anti-sealed side without Sigma raging about being pool-hosed
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Nov 24, 2010 18:43
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MizuZero posted:I agreed with you the last time this came up and I'll agree with you again. It helps that this post articulated the salient points of the anti-sealed side without Sigma raging about being pool-hosed I didn't get poolfucked at the GP, so it was a blast  The arguments last time seemed to revolve entirely around this notion that "high variance, luck-based horseshit format" meant "no skill format." There's obviously additional skill tests in sealed deck construction versus say, constructed, but when you look at the 10-0 decks at the GP it becomes obvious that those weren't even very difficult pools to build. You put all your 2 for 1s and bomb artifacts in a pile, and then play the rest of the removal, and then fill out the curve with the best creatures in the format. The important thing to remember is that draft is the best format, forever and always
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Nov 24, 2010 21:23
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Part of why Scars sealed seems so swingy is that you can almost always play your bombs. Most of the bombs are colourless so it's completely painless to toss them into your deck. Even the coloured bombs are easy to support because the average sealed deck will be mostly artifacts anyway, you only need 2-3 other cards in the same colour to be playable, and in some cases less. Compare that to M11 where you could open a Inferno Titan or Baneslayer Angel, and be forced to leave it on the sidelines because you didn't have 7 other non-awful cards in that colour. It's too bad day 1 of a GP couldn't be draft as well, but organizing 200 draft pods would be a logistical nightmare, as well as add about 5+ hours to the day. Deck registation would be mostly useless unless you stamp 200000+ cards beforehand
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Nov 24, 2010 23:36
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Lone Goat posted:It's too bad day 1 of a GP couldn't be draft as well, but organizing 200 draft pods would be a logistical nightmare, as well as add about 5+ hours to the day. Deck registation would be mostly useless unless you stamp 200000+ cards beforehand It seems somewhat viable to swap pools every X rounds or something. Re-seat everyone and give them another 30 minutes after rotating pools. Then re-register. It would eat 45 minutes to an hour, but it would help reduce the effect of one pool on 9 rounds.
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Nov 25, 2010 05:57
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Karnegal posted:It seems somewhat viable to swap pools every X rounds or something. Re-seat everyone and give them another 30 minutes after rotating pools. Then re-register. It would eat 45 minutes to an hour, but it would help reduce the effect of one pool on 9 rounds. Bonus: howls of inhuman rage from the guys who get pool-hosed twice in a row.
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Nov 25, 2010 06:04
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Vanilla Bison posted:Bonus: howls of inhuman rage from the guys who get pool-hosed twice in a row. Well, that would certainly happen, but anything is better than the current version. I'd rather see people draft decks and play them all day, but I question whether that's viable or not.
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Nov 25, 2010 06:07
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Decided to stop being a baby and draft scars again and was awarded with the softest table ever: http://www.raredraft.com/watch?d=23lga p3p6 choice between carnifex demon and a 4th grasp of darkness, lol
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Nov 25, 2010 22:34
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Karnegal posted:It seems somewhat viable to swap pools every X rounds or something. Re-seat everyone and give them another 30 minutes after rotating pools. Then re-register. It would eat 45 minutes to an hour, but it would help reduce the effect of one pool on 9 rounds. I don't know how viable it is, really. In Toronto I think the last round of the GP ended at 10pm, and it didn't have any major delays. Adding close to two hours to a day that's already 10-12 hours long is hellish. I know at first blush it doesn't seem like a big deal, but there are some other things to consider when you add another sealed pool. Alone, none of these would be dealbreakers but they add up. I'm assuming that there would be two pools, and that the swap happens after round 5 since you're expecting 9-10 rounds of sealed. If there are three sealed pools, it gets even more absurd: There's another round where everyone can get penalized for a mis-registered deck. Giving a game loss in round 2 because a player missed a card is one thing, it's a different matter entirely in round 7. Yeah, everyone should count their loving land, but it's still a concern. If a player drops before round 6 will they get the boosters that would have made up their next sealed pool? On day 2, if a player drops before the second draft pod starts, the judges will give them three boosters (to dissuade them from staying in the tournament for "free packs"). If the droppers get their packs then every single person that drops will need to come to the judge's table to get their packs, rather than just checking the box on the result slip and loving off (or, have the floor judges carry a million boosters on them like pack mules). If the players don't get the packs on drop, then expect a lot of 0-5s to not drop so that they still get their packs. More players = longer tournament so who knows how much time this adds. Speaking of extra packs, the cost of entry will likely go up. I know, Magic isn't a game for poor folk but the difference between $40-$60 is significant. Vanilla Bison posted:Bonus: howls of inhuman rage from the guys who get pool-hosed twice in a row. Howls of inhuman rage from players with three byes that open a busted first pool and then only get to use it for 2 rounds.
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Nov 25, 2010 23:53
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Lone Goat posted:There's no way it'd only take 45-60 minutes. You have to print and post seats and seat everyone (20+ minutes), distribute packs and reg sheets (10+), register card pools (15+), swap (ideally 1 minute, but let's be realistic), register and collect deck lists (30+), and wait for all the stragglers between each step (like a million goddamn minutes). Also by this point side events will be happening so the venue will be busier and louder. I was spinning a scenario where you'd swap pools with other players as opposed to opening new pools. People who dropped would keep the cards they had when they dropped. You'd be reseated and you'd be shifting your pool with someone at your table, you just add space to the deck reg forms. You add a 3rd name column to the reg sheet and a 3rd line for marking cards played. People check the pools they got passed and the sheets and if they match go to deck building, if nor "JUDGE!." They already alphabetize people and what not, it wouldn't be any harder to distro reg sheets than it would match slips. Also, I have 0 sympathy for people who can't properly register a deck. It's like a second grade matching task. EDIT: I don't think this is realistic, I would just rather see a different season - how about legacy instead of sealed?
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Nov 26, 2010 00:35
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Karnegal posted:I was spinning a scenario where you'd swap pools with other players as opposed to opening new pools. People who dropped would keep the cards they had when they dropped. You'd be reseated and you'd be shifting your pool with someone at your table, you just add space to the deck reg forms. You add a 3rd name column to the reg sheet and a 3rd line for marking cards played. People check the pools they got passed and the sheets and if they match go to deck building, if nor "JUDGE!." They already alphabetize people and what not, it wouldn't be any harder to distro reg sheets than it would match slips. Also, I have 0 sympathy for people who can't properly register a deck. It's like a second grade matching task. PHYSICAL legacy? Other than changing the meaning of the word "legacy" to mean a format with only cards that could be played by 10,000 people over the globe on the same weekend, no no no no no
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Nov 26, 2010 01:42
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tgijsola posted:Decided to stop being a baby and draft scars again and was awarded with the softest table ever: http://www.raredraft.com/watch?d=23lga ahahahahah. See what happens when you eschew established archetypes and
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Nov 26, 2010 03:36
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Gerund posted:PHYSICAL legacy? Other than changing the meaning of the word "legacy" to mean a format with only cards that could be played by 10,000 people over the globe on the same weekend, no no no no no ? You mean like the legacy GPs that get 2000 people? I'm pretty sure there are more than enough people to support that.
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Nov 26, 2010 03:42
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tgijsola posted:Decided to stop being a baby and draft scars again and was awarded with the softest table ever: http://www.raredraft.com/watch?d=23lga My favorite part is when you opened vat and then got a skinrender by merely asking.
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Nov 26, 2010 04:04
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Gerund posted:PHYSICAL legacy? Other than changing the meaning of the word "legacy" to mean a format with only cards that could be played by 10,000 people over the globe on the same weekend, no no no no no Pretty sure you're thinking of vintage. Legacy is the one where everyone wins with Survival of the Fittest, Vintage is the one where everyone wins with Time Vault/Key.
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Nov 26, 2010 07:18
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tgijsola posted:Decided to stop being a baby and draft scars again and was awarded with the softest table ever: http://www.raredraft.com/watch?d=23lga I don't think you drafted nearly enough black bombs and removal.
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Nov 26, 2010 07:50
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Won a 4322 with RW metal. Ran a bunch of hit or miss cards like sunchasers and Cerebral Eruption but it still got there. Last round against infect was the toughest but the Kuldotha Rebirths really help stall them out so I could get there in the sky. I feel I got lucky in the match ups though and would have rolled over to stronger decks. Any key mistakes you guys see?
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Nov 26, 2010 08:08
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snyprmag posted:Won a 4322 with RW metal. Ran a I feel I got lucky in the match ups though and would have rolled over to stronger decks. Any key mistakes you guys see? Getting rolled over to stronger decks is pretty commmon. Ok, shoot me.
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Nov 26, 2010 08:31
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snyprmag posted:Won a 4322 with RW metal. Ran a bunch of hit or miss cards like sunchasers and Cerebral Eruption but it still got there. Last round against infect was the toughest but the Kuldotha Rebirths really help stall them out so I could get there in the sky. P1P2: You already took the Eruption, so you're going to play this Shatter- you did pass a Turn to Slag, but the person to your left's probably going to grab the Glimmerpoint Stag, so "cutting Red" would be in your best interest. Personally, I'd have taken the Stag P1P1- I've seen Eruption hit Scrapdiver Serpent before, but I've seen it hit lands twice in a row far more often. It's just too random for me. Taking the Shatter here would probably have made the Red in pack 2 a little bit better, but as you said, a safe pick is a safe pick. P1P3: This is a real pretty pack. I'd have taken the Volition Reins here and tried to coast in Blue while letting everyone else fight over the awesome Red and White stuff. P1P6: here's a Sky-Eel School P1P7: and a Silver Myr P1P9: the Acolyte is actually really, really good in a heavy Metalcraft deck. Preventing 2 to your Chrome Steeds is quite a powerful effect. Shikari's better if it's early, so I'm cool with this. P1P11: possible Scrapdiver Serpent? P1P13: Auriok Replica, definitely. It's an artifact, a 2/2 body, and insurance against the poison deck and its proclivity to Untamed Might out of nowhere. The rest of the draft is entirely by numbers; though you're in overdrafted colors, you took premium colored stuff within your first couple picks per pack, filled out in the lean times with playable artifacts, and ended up with about 13-14 threats, 13-14 artifacts, and 5 pieces of removal, with the potential for some blisteringly fast starts. You're probably not the best R/W deck at the table, but you're looking pretty good, and in the end you won so feel vindicated 
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Nov 26, 2010 11:03
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Eruption is unreliable, but it's still mass removal that puts the opponent on a clock of sorts. Every cast has a roughly 60% chance of outright winning the game, and if it fails you get to do it again until it works. At the very least, I don't want that coming at me. I don't take it over top-notch removal, but other than that there aren't a lot of commons or uncommons I'd pass it for. Stag mostly shines in conjunction with other cards, most of which are themselves potential first picks. I usually only rate it highly once I have a few of those cards, because it's quite possible to never see them.
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Nov 26, 2010 12:30
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Hodgepodge posted:Eruption is unreliable, but it's still mass removal that puts the opponent on a clock of sorts. Every cast has a roughly 60% chance of outright winning the game, and if it fails you get to do it again until it works. At the very least, I don't want that coming at me. I don't take it over top-notch removal, but other than that there aren't a lot of commons or uncommons I'd pass it for. I agree with all of this, but I've had some underwhelming experiences with the Eruption. When cast in limited, it often comes down to pulling nice and winning the game vs. pulling crap and losing the game, and since it doesn't even clear the top card of the opponent's deck, you can't just pay eight for two pulls at the ring. Four mana is not an insignificant amount; it's a pretty severe loss in tempo if it whiffs, and if you're behind on the board then you never want it to whiff. Since there's no way to know the top card of your opponent's library in the format, making an already random game even more so doesn't appeal to me, and so I'd rather take the consistently good creature over the unreliable removal (and also over the 5 CMC removal in the same pack). Though when you do hit it's a one-sided Wrath with bonus damage, so I definitely understand first-picking it.
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Nov 26, 2010 19:15
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Karnegal posted:? You mean like the legacy GPs that get 2000 people? I'm pretty sure there are more than enough people to support that. Obviously I don't know the exact number of cards in existence, but going from a once or twice a year event, even when it is hitting 2000k for one weekend, to the huge number of 700 member PTQ season is going to have an undeniable card availability issue. But hey, buying a $200 tabernacle in the off season to sell it for $1000 in-season sounds like a great way to make money, right?
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Nov 27, 2010 01:40
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double posting like a champ Another MOJ draft, another mishandled draft! This time in dude-light infect flavor! But hey, result oriented thinking is the bomb, yo. Commentary Great Pack 1, really deep in metalcraft, contagion engine is a bomb in infect and you're only passing a nim otherwise. If it wheels, you know that infect is open for you to jump in, if snap sail or carapace forger comes around you've got a decent read for metalcraft being open and should look for some green stuff in mid pack. p1p2 slam tangle angler p1p3 slam cyst bearer p1p4 Tainted strike is on-target and the dumb green fat will flow much easier. p1p5 Flesh Allergy is pretty decent removal if you commit to drafting a 17-18 infect creatures or creatures in general, but isn't the best because the life loss is literally nothing for your deck. A second tainted strike is a 23rd card but plays with dumb green fat much better. You're obviously getting cut in infect and you won't get the Infect Creatures pack 3, so getting the Tainted Strike is a much better play. p1p6 C-Cu-Cut infect p1p7 Myr into the 4 drop bulk infect and mana fixing, obvious pick. p1p8 going for a slower infect deck is fine with contagion engine. Kills annoying myr really well on the play, which infect wants to do anyway. p1p9 The signal comes around, Infect! Infect! Infect! p1p10 Kuldotha Rebirth is a much better hate draft, it is a card that kills Cyst Bearer and is therefore good. p1p11-p15 obv p2p1 Ichor Rats is THE creature to pair with Contagion Engine p2p2 necropede is the most defensive infect creature. p2p3 Invader Nim p2p4 You aren't fast infect so why not go for the removal here? p2p5 slow defensive infect pick p2p6 What should have been your 2nd Ichor Rats, straight slam here. p2p7 The dinosaur to go with your tainted strike you should have drafted p2p8 marginal card vs. Hatedraft plated sea strider or soliton to screw over the blue drafter downstream. p2p9 god wheel p2p10 obv p3p1 opening a plague stinger makes a bad trigon of rage pick look amazing. p3p2 who passes tumble magnet? p3p3 slam untamed might p3p4 an 11th actual infect creature is the only sensible pick p3p5 slam blight mamba p3p6 flyer hate sideboard pick p3p7 Stoic rebuttal is an actual card p3p8 Mars needs dudes p3p9 this table HAS to know its passing a god infect deck. p3p10 dudes for the dude pile p3p11 obv
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Nov 27, 2010 03:49
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Gerund posted:Obviously I don't know the exact number of cards in existence, but going from a once or twice a year event, even when it is hitting 2000k for one weekend, to the huge number of 700 member PTQ season is going to have an undeniable card availability issue. No deck with tabernacle has top 8'ed a SSG 5k in quite some time. Also, there is a huge demand for Legacy events right now, that's why SSG is making money hand over fist. Also, a playset of Jaces is more than any single card in Legacy. And more than a playset of pretty much anything you play in legacy as a playset. EDIT: Also, since legacy is more popular then extended, I don't think that it's outside the realm of possibility that a legacy season would draw more players than an extended or sealed season. I'm hard-pressed to believe that legacy wouldn't be a viable season if wizards wanted to support it. Karnegal fucked around with this message at 10:17 on Nov 27, 2010 |
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Nov 27, 2010 08:52
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Placed second at FNM, and only missed out on first because 2 of my opponents dropped after they lost in the second round, thus loving up my tiebreakers. Went 3-0-1 and the guy I tied with in round 1 got first (I just needed one more combat to finish him off but it was my turn when time was called, so he got turns 1-3-5). Me and the guy to my right was going BG infect, but while he was picking up tainted strikes and pump spells, I was picking up corpse curs, cystbearers, and grasp of darkness. Also, almost all of my rounds were the same. Either getting mana flooded or mana screwed game 1, then going perfectly in game 2, and finishing out game 3 strongly enough to pull out a win. Swinging with corpse cur, having him die, and dropping another to grab the first is pretty solid.
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Nov 27, 2010 19:40
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Just played against someone who went Triskelion, clone, Steel overseer
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Nov 28, 2010 02:25
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Well first Scars draft online. I end up with an OK W/u deck (and saw the drat nuts infect deck go around  ), get paired up with U/w, lose to contagion engine.
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Nov 28, 2010 02:28
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I just drafted a pretty nuts infect deck with 3 plague stingers 3 cystbearer and contagion engine and lost to carnifex demon round 2... Poison has a really hard time with that card even with contagion engine...
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Nov 28, 2010 02:43
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Today's SCG premium article by Kibler basically talks about how bomb centric this format is and ends with "I won't be in Florence, and I'm pretty pleased that means I won't be playing any more Scars Sealed Deck". Also we can't get drafts for this format going at my store any more, at all. We get about 3 people showing up when we'd usually ahve about 10 for M11.
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Nov 29, 2010 23:05
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Sigma-X posted:Also we can't get drafts for this format going at my store any more, at all. We get about 3 people showing up when we'd usually have about 10 for M11.
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Nov 29, 2010 23:42
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