Search Amazon.com:
Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«360 »
  • Post
  • Reply
Karnegal
Dec 24, 2005

Is it... safe?


Ashenai posted:

That makes no sense. I see you're very invested in your theory that Sealed is about luck, but the strength of certain colors has precisely zero to do with how luck-based a format is. In Torment, black was far more powerful than the other colors (by design,) and that didn't make the format any more (or less) luck-based.

In Scars, if you have a strong pool, your best deck is likely to be heavy white-red. If you have a weak pool, your best deck is still likely to be heavy white-red. This certainly isn't great for color variety in Sealed, but it has nothing to do with how luck-based it is.


I see you're very invested in in your theory that the format you seem to claim the most skill in not the most effected by luck.

The color distribution of the top decks proves that certain pools are significantly stronger than others and those without good cards in those colors are at a clear disadvantage.

"If you have a weak pool, your best deck is still likely to be heavy white-red." Who gives a gently caress, in what world do you think that opening a weak W/R pool is going to get you past several players of equal skill with a strong W/R pool?

How do you not put 2 and 2 together. You do know that the cards in a sealed pool are random? As in, any single pool can have a crazy distribution. If, you've played a lot of sealed, certainly you've had Scars pools where there are 3 white cards and 4 red ones and 6 of them suck. So where's your R/W? Oh you don't have any? So I guess you're not playing R or W, but it seems that given a large playing field all of the top decks have R and or W? Oh poo poo! I'm sure that all the good players opened the R/W and that the people whose pools were disproportionately U were all just bad players and not people who were playing at a disadvantage from deck construction.

I don't understand how you seem to think that the format where you have the least influence on the cards you can play while other people are simultaneously getting better cards is not the format most effected by luck. You keep making this stupid argument that skill wins out, but that only applies with a significantly different level of skill. If you take two players with 2000 limited ratings and give one a lovely pool and the other a good poll, which one are you going to bet on? Here let's let the skill slide a little for you, 1950 and a good pool, 2000 and a poo poo pool. Who wins most of the time?

Sure, in your 8 man sealed event on MTGO you can outplay people, but those mean about jack poo poo in competitive magic. In the events that I've clearly been talking about in my earlier posts, any PTQ or higher level event (at least in places that get real attendance and aren't in bumble-gently caress Alaska), there are enough people and enough rounds that there will be sufficient good players with good pools that good players with bad pools are not going to top 8.

If it were all about skill you wouldn't see people like Shuuhei Nakamura going 1-2 drop in GP's against people who are significantly less skilled then they are.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

anakha
Sep 16, 2009

Yes, that is an asskicking drunkard dog-man.


Karnegal posted:

If it were all about skill you wouldn't see people like Shuuhei Nakamura going 1-2 drop in GP's against people who are significantly less skilled then they are.

Jumping in not because I'm backing either side in this argument, but that underlined statement really stinks of a strawman.

Ashenai
Oct 5, 2005

You taught me language;
and my profit on't
Is, I know how to curse.

Karnegal posted:

I see you're very invested in in your theory that the format you seem to claim the most skill in not the most effected by luck.

I didn't claim the most skill in Sealed, I think I'm about equally good in Sealed and Draft.

I also rock face in Momir Basic, but I'm not about to claim it's a very skill-based format (although it's not purely luck.)

quote:

The color distribution of the top decks proves that certain pools are significantly stronger than others and those without good cards in those colors are at a clear disadvantage.

"If you have a weak pool, your best deck is still likely to be heavy white-red." Who gives a gently caress, in what world do you think that opening a weak W/R pool is going to get you past several players of equal skill with a strong W/R pool?

How do you not put 2 and 2 together. You do know that the cards in a sealed pool are random? As in, any single pool can have a crazy distribution. If, you've played a lot of sealed, certainly you've had Scars pools where there are 3 white cards and 4 red ones and 6 of them suck. So where's your R/W? Oh you don't have any? So I guess you're not playing R or W, but it seems that given a large playing field all of the top decks have R and or W? Oh poo poo! I'm sure that all the good players opened the R/W and that the people whose pools were disproportionately U were all just bad players and not people who were playing at a disadvantage from deck construction.

I don't understand how you seem to think that the format where you have the least influence on the cards you can play while other people are simultaneously getting better cards is not the format most effected by luck. You keep making this stupid argument that skill wins out, but that only applies with a significantly different level of skill. If you take two players with 2000 limited ratings and give one a lovely pool and the other a good poll, which one are you going to bet on? Here let's let the skill slide a little for you, 1950 and a good pool, 2000 and a poo poo pool. Who wins most of the time?

Sure, in your 8 man sealed event on MTGO you can outplay people, but those mean about jack poo poo in competitive magic. In the events that I've clearly been talking about in my earlier posts, any PTQ or higher level event (at least in places that get real attendance and aren't in bumble-gently caress Alaska), there are enough people and enough rounds that there will be sufficient good players with good pools that good players with bad pools are not going to top 8.

If it were all about skill you wouldn't see people like Shuuhei Nakamura going 1-2 drop in GP's against people who are significantly less skilled then they are.

You gave a lot of arguments for luck playing a part, which I never disputed. I also think Draft is generally more skill-intensive than Sealed. I'm just saying Sealed is generally more skill-testing than most Constructed formats. My opinions appear to be shared by most pros who have given an opinion on the subject, and by Magic R&D, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're correct.

If you're really interested in the answer to this question, what you'd need to look at is the percentage of previous winners vs. first-timers in the top 8 of various formats. If a format keeps having new people in the top 8's, it's probably more luck based. If it keeps putting proven pros in the top 8, it's probably more skill based.

Looking at this over various formats could probably give us real answers as to which formats are more skill-based. I think the results would bear me out, but this doesn't really interest me enough to actually crunch the numbers. If you feel passionately about it, look into it, I guess.

Imaduck
Apr 16, 2007

the magnetorotational instability turns me on

I was going to jump into the whole stupid sealed vs. draft vs. constructed debate, but really I think it's all summed up by this statement:

Karnegal posted:

If it were all about skill you wouldn't see people like Shuuhei Nakamura going 1-2 drop in GP's against people who are significantly less skilled then they are.
This is the stupid opinion that is infuriating everyone. I don't care what format you're in, pros lose to "lesser" players all the time. It's just the difference between blaming your "bad card pool" vs. your "bad matchups" or draws or whatever.

Yes, sealed has the largest amount of "luck," or as I like to call it, variance in any of the formats. This does not necessarily make it the less skill intensive. This is like asking if checkers requires more skill than poker. Sure, checkers has a negligible amount of luck in it, and you can lose poker just by getting dealt a bad card even after making all the right plays, but that doesn't make it a less skillful sport. It simply means that there will be overall more variance in the results of the game. Poker pros scrub out all the time, that doesn't mean they're bad, that doesn't mean that chess players are more skilled, it just means that luck adds a little more randomness to the game.

A crappy poker player may be able to win a few poker games, but overall s/he is going to lose much more than a pro. This may not be true in checkers, but that doesn't mean that checkers players necessarily have more "skills" than poker players. It just means you can expect more random variance in poker, but certainly less variance then a "rock, paper, scissors" tournament. Poker players must also have a totally different set of skills, involving evaluating their opponents and knowing the odds for the correct plays. You just have to look at the statistics a little more closely in games that have more variance; sure, Joe Shmoe may have won that sealed PTQ that one time, but LSV has placed in many tournaments, and has a much higher win percentage than any other player, even though he'll scrub out sometimes. His career though demonstrates a record of skill and strategy.

Imaduck fucked around with this message at Nov 1, 2010 around 18:19

Karnegal
Dec 24, 2005

Is it... safe?


Imaduck posted:

I was going to jump into the whole stupid sealed vs. draft vs. constructed debate, but really I think it's all summed up by this statement:

This is the stupid opinion that is infuriating everyone. I don't care what format you're in, pros lose to "lesser" players all the time. It's just the difference between blaming your "bad card pool" vs. your "bad matchups" or draws or whatever.

Yes, sealed has the largest amount of "luck," or as I like to call it, variance in any of the formats. This does not necessarily make it the less skill intensive. This is like asking if checkers requires more skill than poker. Sure, checkers has a negligible amount of luck in it, and you can lose poker just by getting dealt a bad card even after making all the right plays, but that doesn't make it a less skillful sport. It simply means that there will be overall more variance in the results of the game. Poker pros scrub out all the time, that doesn't mean they're bad, that doesn't mean that chess players are more skilled, it just means that luck adds a little more randomness to the game.

A crappy poker player may be able to win a few poker games, but overall s/he is going to lose much more than a pro. This may not be true in checkers, but that doesn't mean that checkers players necessarily have more "skills" than poker players. It just means you can expect more random variance in poker, but certainly less variance then a "rock, paper, scissors" tournament. Poker players must also have a totally different set of skills, involving evaluating their opponents and knowing the odds for the correct plays. You just have to look at the statistics a little more closely in games that have more variance; sure, Joe Shmoe may have won that sealed PTQ that one time, but LSV has placed in many tournaments, and has a much higher win percentage than any other player, even though he'll scrub out sometimes. His career though demonstrates a record of skill and strategy.

Checkers to Poker is apples to oranges, whereas sealed to constructed / sealed to limited is like oranges to clementines or some other closely related fruit. The point being that you're comparing two wildly disparate games, whereas I'm talking about variations of the same game which are played with the same rule set. The difference is in deck construction method.

GoldenDelicious
Feb 20, 2008

One A Day.


Who cares if it's about luck or skill or karma or faith or whatever the gently caress.

1. Do you have fun playing sealed? If yes, play sealed! If no, don't play sealed!

2. Do you have fun playing draft? If yes, play draft! If no, don't play draft!

Problem loving solved.

Sigma-X
Jun 17, 2005

"thats pretty much it, we all got high, it was sweet you should of been there"
"god damnt knuckles, your plan didn't do anything"


this argument is getting increasingly stupid because one side is arguing that Sealed is the highest variance (ie, luck-based) format, and the other side saying that it is very skill intensive. These aren't polar opposites but the 'skill' side seems to think they are.

There are more uncontrollable, unpredictable variables in Sealed than any other format (outside of packwars or something). This means that luck is a larger factor in that format than others, where there are fewer random factors due to greater control over card pool.

Limited, in general, requires a higher level of skill in playing the game, because the variance in card pool typically leads to much more varied board states due to the wider range of cards used (due to lack of availability).

Deckbuilding is a game skill outside of match play that is tested in literally every format, or else Conley Woods wouldn't be famous for the decks he plays. The average netdecking player is the same as the player who adheres strictly to BREAD, and isn't testing deckbuilding in either constructed or limited as hard as a pro, but that doesn't mean that a constructed format is inherently lacking deckbuilding as a skill.

In card games or any other game where luck/chance is involved, playing to that luck and manipulating it as much as possible (ie, playing to your outs) is a skill. Skill mitigates the influence of luck, but it doesn't completely eliminate it. More skilled players are going to win more in any format, and no matter how much variance is involved in the game, on a large enough sampling the better players are going to show more wins.

I really don't know what else there is to argue about this. Sealed has more variables, ergo it has more luck involved. Limited (especially with 2+sets) in general has a larger utilized cardpool than most constructed formats outside of maybe Legacy, and therefore most likely involves more skill (as potential interactions increases) than most other formats, although you can probably argue either way about whether or not the more complex board states of an average limited game requires more skill than the high-power plays of a constructed game. Drafting adds one more skill (drafting cards) to the deckbuilding and match play skills, so it's probably the most objectively skill-intense format out there.

So what the hell else is there to talk about in limited?

Lone Goat
Apr 16, 2003

When life gives you lemons, suplex those lemons.

Sigma-X posted:

red and white are the colors with all the removal in this set. Also, if you get a crap red/white pool you're going to have a shittier deck than these.
The problem isn't so much that all the removal is in red and white, because black and green have some removal too (Grasp of Darkness/Flesh Allergy, Sylvok Replica/Slice in Twain). The problem is that Green and Black have their cards split between normal damage and infect, and infect has to be committed to completely to be a viable option.

You can play your 100% of your white and red commons/uncommons with the rest of your deck, where you can only play 75% of your green and black commons/uncommons with the rest of your deck (and that number plummets when you remove the unplayable cards).

Karnegal
Dec 24, 2005

Is it... safe?


Sigma-X posted:


So what the hell else is there to talk about in limited?

We can all have a circle-jerk about how awesome the change to the order of boosters in draft is. This seems unproductive though, since I've yet to find anyone who isn't either excited or neutral to the change.

Imaduck
Apr 16, 2007

the magnetorotational instability turns me on

I really enjoyed watching this draft. Mad props for winning a game against infect using Grind Clock.

I think UW is really underdrafted in this format, and actually is pretty sweet if you do it right. My favorite deck I drafted was UW with 5 of those 2-drop walls. I basically stalled the board late game until I could get there with one of my two Scrapdiver Serpents (very underrated, although you need to build around them), equipped Invisimancers, or fliers.

I also think people way underrate Bladed Pinions. It rocks against infect, shuts down flier decks, and gives your best dude evasion. Not to mention it's a cheap artifact that does stuff. It rules in the control/evasion deck.

MizuZero
Sep 6, 2005

~honda best man~

the thread got split??? uhhh. I'm just going to link y'all to this and I guess I'll be back if someone concocts a revolutionary new draft archetype

That said, is there a way outside of MODO where we can all draft and play together?

Retcon
Jun 23, 2010


Decided to try drafting on MTGO. Swiss draft, ended up making a RWU deck that lost all three matches.

http://www.raredraft.com/watch?d=1n6eh

The draft itself went fine I think, but I feel like I should have stuck to RW.

Lunsku
May 20, 2006



Retcon posted:

Decided to try drafting on MTGO. Swiss draft, ended up making a RWU deck that lost all three matches.

http://www.raredraft.com/watch?d=1n6eh

The draft itself went fine I think, but I feel like I should have stuck to RW.

p1p5 You already have Darksteel Axe, Bloodshot Trainee is perfect match for it.

p2p1 Nothing wrong with Revoke Existence, I'd probably jump on the Trigon. Especially had I picked the trainee.

p2p2 Shudder is not really something you want to splash for, Sylvok Replica is much better for that.

p2p4 Riddlesmith feels pretty weak splash. Revoke is just fine, Lifestaff is second best in pack.

p2p7 Censer kinda asks for really aggressive deck in general, or ways to benefit from the artifact beyond the two initial counters (throw with Barrage Ogre, refill with Stag, etc.). Gaveleer is fine pick at this point out of this.

p2p11 Completely depends on what you have to recur. Doesn't necessarily have to be even that bomby.

p3p1 Absolutely no reason to hate something when there is a card left in the pack that will make your deck considerably better.

Infect was very open in pack 1, you would have gotten better deck going for it. First two picks I likely would've done the same way, but at pick 3 I'd have taken Cystbearer despite passing the two Plague Stingers alond early. Darksteel Axe is excellent in Infect, and Scrapmelter might still be splashable if you need it.

p1p1 Darksteel Axe
p1p2 Oxidda Scrapmelter (rare missing, not anything to read)
p1p3 Cystbearer
p1p4 Plague Stinger
p1p5 Tangle Angler
p1p6 Blackcleave Goblin (generally dislike it, but would probably try to cut Infect cards heavily even if they were bad)
p1p7 Cystbearer
...
p2p1 Trigon of Rage

Would be already pretty solid Infect start. Pack 2 I assume you might have been cut a bit, pack 3 should be pretty good again.

--

8-4 wasn't firing in the afternoon so took a spin at 4-3-2-2 for the first time this format. Picked up two early Furnace Celebrations, went "what the heck" and tried to live the Furnace dream. Narrowly lost round 2, but the deck was fun at least. It's just that if you're packing good amount of sacrifice outlets, if you don't have Furnace Celebrations in play your card quality in general will be pretty iffy. I tried to go removal heavy anyway, had 2x Turn to Slag, Revoke Existence, Galvanic Blast, Dispense Justice, splash Replica on top of the Furnaces. Weak creatures though.

Gerund
Sep 12, 2007

He push a man


Imaduck posted:

I also think people way underrate Bladed Pinions. It rocks against infect, shuts down flier decks, and gives your best dude evasion. Not to mention it's a cheap artifact that does stuff. It rules in the control/evasion deck.

The problem with Bladed Pinions is that as a common in a Large Base set, you can afford to undervalue it because of how bad they are in multiples. Your worst equipment could be replaced with a mediocre creature 99% of the time.

edit:

quote:

Decided to try drafting on MTGO. Swiss draft, ended up making a RWU deck that lost all three matches.

http://www.raredraft.com/watch?d=1n6eh

The draft itself went fine I think, but I feel like I should have stuck to RW.

p1p1 Darksteel Axe
p1p2 Plague Stinger
p1p3 Cystbearer
p1p4 Plague Stinger
p1p5 Tangle Angler or Corpse Cur
p1p6 Fume Spitter
p1p7 Cystbearer or Lead Myr
p1p8 on-color Spellbomb

And then we've drifted way off the draft. Still, first 8 picks had a drat nice infect deck in the pool, and I would have thought of forcing it seeing p1p2 Plague Stringer to go with the Darksteel Axe. P2p1 Trigon of Rage and/or Instill Infection or Copper Myr and p3p1 Skinrender, you have to be more open to drafting the deck, especially after p1p1 Darksteel Axe.

also you are hatedrafting WAY too early and too often. Hatedrafting is only going to effect one opponent of 7, and you only play 3; 60% of the time it will have 0 effect on the draft, less even in a 8-4 as in the later rounds a deck that got picked off won't as often make the later rounds.

Gerund fucked around with this message at Nov 2, 2010 around 19:28

ChewyLSB
Jan 13, 2008

Should I get hit with sanctions or batteries?

I agree with gerund, although I don't think I would've went into infect until P1P3, I agree with your choice on Scrapmelter over Plaguestinger. However, when I see a Cystbearer P1P3, along with remembering that you just passed a Plague Stinger, I would've went into infect, I think.

GottaPayDaTrollToll
Dec 2, 2009


Imaduck posted:

I really enjoyed watching this draft. Mad props for winning a game against infect using Grind Clock.

I think UW is really underdrafted in this format, and actually is pretty sweet if you do it right. My favorite deck I drafted was UW with 5 of those 2-drop walls. I basically stalled the board late game until I could get there with one of my two Scrapdiver Serpents (very underrated, although you need to build around them), equipped Invisimancers, or fliers.

I also think people way underrate Bladed Pinions. It rocks against infect, shuts down flier decks, and gives your best dude evasion. Not to mention it's a cheap artifact that does stuff. It rules in the control/evasion deck.

Wall of Tanglecord is a card that doesn't get nearly enough respect. A lot of people seem to have the mentality that since this is a "fast format," it's one where you have to be the beatdown to win, and Wall of Tanglecord gives that strategy a big middle finger.

Gerund
Sep 12, 2007

He push a man


GottaPayDaTrollToll posted:

Wall of Tanglecord is a card that doesn't get nearly enough respect. A lot of people seem to have the mentality that since this is a "fast format," it's one where you have to be the beatdown to win, and Wall of Tanglecord gives that strategy a big middle finger.

Also Wall of Tanglecord & Carapace Forger are two under-drafted cards IMO, and gumming up the ground with them and combining with equipment makes for a decent G/x Equipment draft deck.

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006

of course!


I rather like Wall of Tanglecord, just because it's a cheap artifact that's rarely completely useless, and is also hard to destroy as artifact creatures go.

Slaapaav
Mar 3, 2006



The Nastier Nate posted:

6 packs later it tabeled, at that point it became blatantly obvious I was the only one at the table playing red.
your fnm sucks at draft

Retcon
Jun 23, 2010


Yeah, looking at the cards that got passed and your comments makes me think that drafting Infect was the right thing to do. I just have this irrational fear that if I take Infect cards early, the Infect cards will stop coming in and I'm stuck with a 50/50 pool. If you end up switching colors you can at least splash for those cards if you really want to play them.

Ashenai
Oct 5, 2005

You taught me language;
and my profit on't
Is, I know how to curse.

Retcon posted:

Yeah, looking at the cards that got passed and your comments makes me think that drafting Infect was the right thing to do.

I'm becoming convinced that Infect is the best deck in draft, by a lot. Even my half-assed Infect decks almost always seem to make the finals (and a lot of the time, my opponent in the finals also happens to be playing Infect.) Obviously it has to be at least somewhat open, but if it is, I beeline for it every time.

quote:

I just have this irrational fear that if I take Infect cards early, the Infect cards will stop coming in and I'm stuck with a 50/50 pool.

The opposite is actually true. By jumping on Infect cards early, you'll cut the guy to your left, making it more probable that you'll get all the Infect goodies in pack 2. If you're scared to commit, you could accidentally put the guy on your left into Infect, and by the time you decide to take infect cards, it's too late.

Obviously, sometimes you get cut from the right, and maybe you have to abandon 2 or even 3 of your early picks. I think the risk is definitely worth it, though.

Sigma-X
Jun 17, 2005

"thats pretty much it, we all got high, it was sweet you should of been there"
"god damnt knuckles, your plan didn't do anything"


If you go balls deep on infect in the first 4-5 picks and manage to get 4-5 picks of infect dudes in those picks, you're going to get that much from pack 3, and pack 2 will be full of goodies.

Infect also needs to run less removal, in general, since it can't be effectively blocked by most creatures, meaning your removal is largely for defensive purposes.

I think infect creatures go something like this, in pick order:

Skithyrix, Tangle Angler, Plague Stinger, Cystbearer, Necropede, Ichorclaw Myr, Contagious Nim, Corpse Cur, Tel Jilad Fallen, Blight Mamba, Carrion Call, Black Cleave Goblins, Trigon of Contagion.

You almost always want to grab dudes that aren't 4 drops, because even though the 4 drops are all pretty playable, you will wind up with a billion of them, and dropping the curve is a necessity with infect.

Putrefax wildly runs up and down that spectrum based on when you see him, but he's usually around Ichorclaw Myr.

Ashenai
Oct 5, 2005

You taught me language;
and my profit on't
Is, I know how to curse.

Sigma-X posted:

I think infect creatures go something like this, in pick order:

Skithyrix, Tangle Angler, Plague Stinger, Cystbearer, Necropede, Ichorclaw Myr, Contagious Nim, Corpse Cur, Tel Jilad Fallen, Blight Mamba, Carrion Call, Black Cleave Goblins, Trigon of Contagion.

You left out Hand of the Praetors (position is pretty obvious though,) and Ichor Rats (not nearly so obvious.)

Anyway, HERE is Kazuya Mitamura's Infect pick order, it matches yours fairly well, except for Contagious Nim.

I like how you both left off Vector Asp though.

Sigma-X
Jun 17, 2005

"thats pretty much it, we all got high, it was sweet you should of been there"
"god damnt knuckles, your plan didn't do anything"


I was doing mine from memory. I think ichor rats is probably around the Nim, and to be honest I forget about Putrefax until after I had done the list, although Hand is probably right behind Skithryix.

Nim drops in relevance as you continue to draft other cheap dudes, but dropping your curve is the most important thing, imho.

Vector Asp is playable in specific decks (if you have pump/equipment) but he isn't a dude that signals infect or is one you want to be running.

ChewyLSB
Jan 13, 2008

Should I get hit with sanctions or batteries?

Contagious Nim goes up and down depending on your curve, but infect very often has very few 3 drops, so it goes up because of that.

KildarX
Oct 24, 2010

Worst decision I ever made.


Sigma-X posted:

I think infect creatures go something like this, in pick order:

Skithyrix, Tangle Angler, Plague Stinger, Cystbearer, Necropede, Ichorclaw Myr, Contagious Nim, Corpse Cur, Tel Jilad Fallen, Blight Mamba, Carrion Call, Black Cleave Goblins, Trigon of Contagion.

Putrefax wildly runs up and down that spectrum based on when you see him, but he's usually around Ichorclaw Myr.

I think you( and a good portion of M:TG Players) are valuing Ichorclaw Myr too low in limited. Ichorclaw when blocked kills and at least trades with or survives out right all two drop creatures, and all three drop creatures and kills off a good chunk of four drop creatures, and really doesn't become useless against creatures until you see a six drop creature, and even then he kills off one of them. Just glancing at the list of possible creatures to see in draft he kills/trades off a good half of them, and at worst you are going to trade two for one most of the time with him. I'd draft Ichorclaw over all infect based creatures, excluding Skithrix and Hand of the Praetors in that order, for the sheer fact that Ichorclaw is going to A) weedle them for one poison a turn or B)Trade for two creatures.

KildarX fucked around with this message at Nov 3, 2010 around 17:30

Gerund
Sep 12, 2007

He push a man


Ichor Rats is floating between choice G to J dependent on the number of Instill Infection, Necropede, or Trigon of Corruptions you are running. Being able to drop for a poison counter and attack for another 2 at that slot in the curve is ALOT better if you have the tools to scare away the basic Mana Myr and other dorks.

Sigma-X
Jun 17, 2005

"thats pretty much it, we all got high, it was sweet you should of been there"
"god damnt knuckles, your plan didn't do anything"


KildarX posted:

I think you( and a good portion of M:TG Players) are valuing Ichorclaw Myr too low in limited. Ichorclaw when blocked kills and at least trades with or survives out right all two drop creatures, and all three drop creatures and kills off a good chunk of four drop creatures, and really doesn't become useless against creatures until you see a six drop creature, and even then he kills off one of them. Just glancing at the list of possible creatures to see in draft he kills/trades off a good half of them, and at worst you are going to trade two for one most of the time with him. I'd draft Ichorclaw over all infect based creatures, excluding Skithrix and Hand of the Praetors in that order, for the sheer fact that Ichorclaw is going to A) weedle them for one poison a turn or B)Trade for two creatures.

Ichorclaw is the best dude you have after the mythic rare, the lure creature with the very-rare 5 toughness, the flyer, the Biggest Dude, and The Two For One. I ranked him ahead of the gravedigger two for one, for christs sake.

Ichorclaw always makes the cut, but I don't think he's better than necropede, who trades with almost all the same dudes except also hits their 1-toughness guys randomly, and I'd rather have a flyer for those last few points of damage than a guy who can be chumped for a few turns.

The only infect guys I don't like to run are mamba, black cleave goblins, and trigon of contagion (which always gets cut).

Seriously, you really feel that ichorclaw myr is better than Tangle Angler?

Cystbearer does the same poo poo ichorclaw myr does, except he also blocks and hits for 2.

I think you can make an argument for him over plague stinger moreso than tangle angler or cystbearer, since ichorclaw myr's pump-on-block is a kind of evasion, but I don't see him being better than Cystbearer or Tangle Angler. Tangle Angler is a dude you run in non-infect decks, because the lure ability combined with the 5 toughness in a format that can't easily deal with 5 toughness is just incredibly strong.

Ashenai
Oct 5, 2005

You taught me language;
and my profit on't
Is, I know how to curse.

Yeah, Tangle Angler gives me fits every time I see him. He's so annoying to play against, because he does everything. He plays defense, he picks off my dudes, and then he makes like a Prized Unicorn for the lethal alpha strike. And that's just as-is; put any kind of Equipment on him and he's downright silly.

KildarX
Oct 24, 2010

Worst decision I ever made.


Sigma-X posted:

Ichorclaw always makes the cut, but I don't think he's better than necropede, who trades with almost all the same dudes except also hits their 1-toughness guys randomly, and I'd rather have a flyer for those last few points of damage than a guy who can be chumped for a few turns.

The deal with Ichorclaw myr is that with three power he will kill at least fifty percent of creatures who block him in SSS limited, more on that later. If they don't block him you are 1/10th of the way to victory. Necropede, becomes more useless as the turns go on in Limited relegated to pinging a random Myr or plague stinger for one.

The flyer is neat, the only reason I think to pick the Ichorclaw and Necropede over it is, that Necropede is spot removal and Ichorclaw has its own form of early game evasion.

quote:

Seriously, you really feel that ichorclaw myr is better than Tangle Angler?


Angler has a great effect, when combined with a fatty, but on its own merit in a block where a good portion of your decent creatures, artifacts, and some instants let you place a -1/-1 on a creature. On it's own you really don't have much of an attacker at all, just a giant wall that you paid three more for, and at best killed a creature. Ichorclaw is more effecient on the attack, because , again, You pay two less for it and kill many MANY more creatures off the attack [38 vs 89]. Seriously Angler by himself should have been a sorcery that read 2GG: Put a -1/-1 on target creature, it can't block next turn, put a 0/4 wall into play.


quote:

Cystbearer does the same poo poo ichorclaw myr does, except he also blocks and hits for 2.


If you look at the list of creatures you will possibly see in SSS draft the difference between attacking with a 2/3 and 3/3[if blocked] is the difference between killing 24 creatures for one less.[63 vs 89 of 120]. While blocking with Cyst will only kill 23 more creatures on the block then Ichorclaw for one more. If you are swinging with Cyst unblocked for five turns, your opponent is doing it wrong and probably would have folded to Ichorclaw four turns after Cyst would have.

KildarX fucked around with this message at Nov 3, 2010 around 18:33

Sigma-X
Jun 17, 2005

"thats pretty much it, we all got high, it was sweet you should of been there"
"god damnt knuckles, your plan didn't do anything"


Any creature not killed is crippled, so they difference between 3 power and 2 power in a battle that keeps the infect creature around is significantly less pronounced.

You're also assuming that Tangle Angler is always going to be answered with a -1/-1 counter, and you're completely valuing it in a vacuum where you can't combo it with a combat trick or equipment or other dudes on the table that want to swing lethal.

If your opponent is taking 2 from a cystbearer vs. 1 from a myr for several turns, that is shortening their clock significantly. The ichorclaw myr takes twice as many turns, and gets blown out by a lot more removal than a 3 toughness creature. Time is a resource in limited, and I'll take the fast clock that is more resilient to removal over the long clock that dies to twice as much removal.

If we're going to invent theorcraft scenarios where all of the great dudes get answered and your opponent always plays to your creature's strengths, then Ichorclaw Myr is poo poo because he dies immediately to fume spitter, and meanwhile Tangle Angler is amazing because he eats the entire enemy team with GG and 2 for your Trigon of Rage while surviving because hardly anything deals with him.

In actuality, Ichorclaw Myr is the third best 2 drop infect dude, and about the 7th best infect dude, but he's still a 1/1 for 2 that is highly playable, which says an awful lot of good things about his abilities, since there are very few playable 1/1s for 2 in limited.

Vanilla Bison
Mar 27, 2010


Comparing Ichorclaw Myr to Cystbearer only on the attack doesn't give you the complete picture.

Cystbearer can't be killed by Shatter, Revoke Existence, Fume Spitter, Instill Infection, non-Metalcraft Galvanic Blast, Sylvok Replica, Slice in Twain, Oxidda Scrapmelter, Embersmith, Barrage Ogre, or Arc Trail. It can't be instantly killed by Contagion Clasp or Trigon of Corruption, and it takes work to kill it with Furnace Celebration or Heavy Arbalest. It also can't be negated by Rust Tick or Abuna Acolyte.

Karnegal
Dec 24, 2005

Is it... safe?


KildarX posted:

The deal with Ichorclaw myr is that with three power he will kill at least fifty percent of creatures who block him in SSS limited, more on that later. If they don't block him you are 1/10th of the way to victory. Necropede, becomes more useless as the turns go on in Limited relegated to pinging a random Myr or plague stinger for one.
Necropede complicates combat math the entire game, late game ironclaw myr does not.

KildarX posted:

The flyer is neat, the only reason I think to pick the Ichorclaw and Necropede over it is, that Necropede is spot removal and Ichorclaw has its own form of early game evasion.

This one is close, but flying is so good in this set (particularly when blue sucks). Also, you can't rely one drawing the creature you want at the point of the game you want. Ichorclaw late game doesn't do much whereas an unblockable flier can easily say "deal with me or lose next turn."

KildarX posted:

Angler has a great effect, when combined with a fatty, but on its own merit in a block where a good portion of your decent creatures, artifacts, and some instants let you place a -1/-1 on a creature. On it's own you really don't have much of an attacker at all, just a giant wall that you paid three more for, and at best killed a creature. Ichorclaw is more effecient on the attack, because , again, You pay two less for it and kill many MANY more creatures off the attack [38 vs 89]. Seriously Angler by himself should have been a sorcery that read 2GG: Put a -1/-1 on target creature, it can't block next turn, put a 0/4 wall into play.

Angler is just leagues better than ironclaw. He has so much utility and is so hard to kill.


KildarX posted:

If you look at the list of creatures you will possibly see in SSS draft the difference between attacking with a 2/3 and 3/3[if blocked] is the difference between killing 24 creatures for one less.[63 vs 89 of 120]. While blocking with Cyst will only kill 23 more creatures on the block then Ichorclaw for one more. If you are swinging with Cyst unblocked for five turns, your opponent is doing it wrong and probably would have folded to Ichorclaw four turns after Cyst would have.

4 turns is in no way in inconsequential amount of time. There are plenty of times when they could dig themselves out during that time period. Cyst Bearer also doesn't die to cards that everyone one plays (perilous myr) or various 1 damage effects. That 1 mana gives you a lot more staying power.

atastypie
Dec 2, 2000



If I'm in Green (metalcraft/fatties/splash) I will snap up an Angler even if I'm not poison. If I am in a single color going into the third pack I will happily splash for Angler. He opens up so many offensive opportunities and is so infuriating to play against.

Lunsku
May 20, 2006



Tel-Jilad Vengeance really makes for some enjoyable plays:


Click here for the full 1680x1050 image.

Sigma-X
Jun 17, 2005

"thats pretty much it, we all got high, it was sweet you should of been there"
"god damnt knuckles, your plan didn't do anything"


Lunael posted:

Tel-Jilad Vengeance really makes for some enjoyable plays:


Click here for the full 1680x1050 image.


Oh god, that's got to be heart-wrenching on the other side.

Nice job!

ChewyLSB
Jan 13, 2008

Should I get hit with sanctions or batteries?

I really love TJD. Had soemone with Sunspear Shikari + infiltration lens, so I TJD'd it and blocked with my glimmerpoint stag.

GottaPayDaTrollToll
Dec 2, 2009


A question for you guys that have experience drafting the infect deck: How often do you take a card that's lower in the pick order in order to fill out your curve?

Sigma-X
Jun 17, 2005

"thats pretty much it, we all got high, it was sweet you should of been there"
"god damnt knuckles, your plan didn't do anything"


GottaPayDaTrollToll posted:

A question for you guys that have experience drafting the infect deck: How often do you take a card that's lower in the pick order in order to fill out your curve?

The 4cmc dudes are lower in the pick order already to reflect this.

Outside of Hand/Skittles, I think Tangle Angler, Plague Stinger, and Cystbearer are the only guys I take regardless of curve. The other ones I think curve matters.

You really have no problem filling out the high-end of the curve with infect, you get those cards late because they're the weaker ones. But I will take a Corpse Cur over 2-drop 5.

This is one of those questions that is tricky to answer because for all the pick orders we can put forth, really each decision is weighted by what you've seen and drafted so far in the specific draft you're in.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Lunsku
May 20, 2006



GottaPayDaTrollToll posted:

A question for you guys that have experience drafting the infect deck: How often do you take a card that's lower in the pick order in order to fill out your curve?

Depends. 3cc slot is the weak point generally, with Cystbearer being high pick and Contagious Nim the second, and the rest of the slot going to any deck anywhere more or less (Tumble Magnet, Sylvok Replica, Rusted Tick...). I generally pick Corpse Cur over Contagious Nim always, but I think I've done otherwise too on purely curve reasons when 4cc has been packed.

Overloading on 2cc doesn't worry me too much, generally I try to draft Lifestaff or two, usable Spellbombs, Fume Spitters, stuff that allows me to spend mana effectively even when dropping something 2cc later.

Edit:
Speaking of pick orders...

Picked p2p1 Contagious Nim over Steel Hellkite (with Grafted Exoskeleton already in the pile, if that matters) in the draft that Vengeance pick is. And I'm pretty confident it was the right thing to do. I reasoned that 6cc is a lot for most Infect decks, and at the point of the game where you generally drop 6cc power card I want to be well on my way to win already.

Lunsku fucked around with this message at Nov 3, 2010 around 22:15

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply
«360 »