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Figure this is as good a place as any to ask: I'm as toss player and I tend to FE against Zerg but I'm having a lot of trouble with mutas, I usually get contained and mined out when I can't expand because of mutas, what do you guys feel is the best counter to ling/muta as toss?
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| # ? Nov 5, 2010 08:00 |
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| # ? May 23, 2013 22:01 |
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hiphopanonymous posted:I don't know if everyone is doing this or if i'm just a moron for just now realizing it, but if you hold down D while you're waiting for your overlord to pop, the instant it's done it will make drones from the larva you have selected. Mashing the hotkey like a mouse in an addiction experiment is more fun though.
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| # ? Nov 5, 2010 08:29 |
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Israfel posted:Figure this is as good a place as any to ask: I'm as toss player and I tend to FE against Zerg but I'm having a lot of trouble with mutas, I usually get contained and mined out when I can't expand because of mutas, what do you guys feel is the best counter to ling/muta as toss? Huk recently did a sentry/stalker army that crushed Idras mutas but harass can be really annoying because it's way easier for zerg to bounce between bases than it is for your stalkers. If you really want to detour zerg from going muta I'd say getting early phoenixes and just doing your best to harass and keep muta numbers low.
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| # ? Nov 5, 2010 10:42 |
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Think about going HT too, you can warp in templars at your expansions and try and storm away the mutas
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| # ? Nov 5, 2010 13:50 |
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As zerg I never go muta against protoss, but i would consider it if they were killing my overlords with phoenixes, so you should think about that. I dislike muta against protoss and much prefer hydra. Muta are very vulnerable to both stalkers and sentries so I feel like you are trading harass for a viable ground army, which is not something I feel comfortable with going against protoss.
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| # ? Nov 5, 2010 13:57 |
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SirNooblet posted:As zerg I never go muta against protoss, but i would consider it if they were killing my overlords with phoenixes, so you should think about that. I dislike muta against protoss and much prefer hydra. Muta are very vulnerable to both stalkers and sentries so I feel like you are trading harass for a viable ground army, which is not something I feel comfortable with going against protoss. You would go hydra UNLESS the protoss made phoenixes? Unless your lair is super late and you can't get OL speed in time (which would also prevent mutas), I'd just cede air control, plop a spore or two at each base, and go for a roach heavy army with hydra support. Have a speedling strike team to go around and mess with expansion attempts.
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| # ? Nov 5, 2010 14:34 |
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I have been having a ton of ZvZ recently, but I never mind because I do the Baneling rush build that DNK posted in the last thread. I love looking at the resource collection rate at the end of the game and seeing theirs get cut in half a few minutes in. It also punishes people who fast expand very hard. The build for reference: http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...2#post382867732
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| # ? Nov 5, 2010 17:50 |
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If you're doing that bane opening and you see him going roach, I suggest immediately transitioning into roaches after 16 drones or so. Then, when you attack, use roach/bane. Roaches in front, banes behind. Have roaches engage, walk banelings into mineral line. Retreat remaining roaches. Make more roaches. E t c. Roaches (in ZvZ) are really powerful ramp chokers and are pretty much impossible to bust through. So, on maps with tiny-rear end ramps (e.g. Xel'naga caverns) moving into roaches is the only way to go. If you continue making ling/bane you will eventually be swamped by 1base roach. On maps with wide-rear end ramps (e.g. Scrap), you can easily win with 1base mass speedling. Something like: 12pool 11gas 16ol research speed, take drones off gas 16queen MASS LINGS Expand when your minerals clip 300 (even with a queen you can't outspend 16 drones of mineral with pure ling) Send lings when speed is at 90% They should hit just as the enemy (if he went bane nest after 12pool) is morphing banes. Some good ling micro (use ghosting to split lings into banelings) will win the day, and as long as you continue to poo poo out zerglings you should be home free. It's also a good build on scrap because most people do some econ-oriented or tech-oriented builds on it -- long land rush distance gives people a sense of security which 40 slings will disabuse them of. Muta-tech builds, roach builds, expand builds all kind of die to mass sling. (s)ling/bane v sling is more of a micro battle, but since you didn't get nest you should have way more lings + an earlier queen. DNK fucked around with this message at Nov 5, 2010 around 18:23 |
| # ? Nov 5, 2010 18:12 |
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Pizer posted:try to be more ontop of your larve at the start Yeah my decision making sucks atm, I was afraid of the turrets and was like "derp, my bounces will own those scvs..." Thanks for the advice, I'll try working on creep spread with hydra support instead of mutas.
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| # ? Nov 5, 2010 20:50 |
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DNK posted:If you continue making ling/bane you will eventually be swamped by 1base roach. This is the biblical truth of zvz baneling, right here. If you blow up 3/4 of his drones, but he made roaches first, you may drat well lose anyway. Learned that one the hard way.
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| # ? Nov 5, 2010 20:59 |
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I'll backtech to baneling for ZvZ unless he is going mass ling
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| # ? Nov 5, 2010 21:32 |
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I see three raxs when I run a zergling up the terran's ramp. So I get a baneling nest, and smash the gently caress out of this terran. So he lifts his CC and makes me get mutas to kill it while bitching the entire time how since the patch he can't beat zerg anymore. I love how most of the Terran I play now build 3 barracks right next to the loving ramp to get scouted, and don't think at all that I will get a Baneling nest. The Terrans that actively deny scouting overlords, and don't show off there tech right on the ramp beat me. I would be happily going muta/ling, and bam while my spire is building a bunch of blue-flame heilions surprise sex my poo poo hard. 
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| # ? Nov 5, 2010 21:38 |
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The funny thing about that to me is, the ones that don't leave until they have stim, and think to split their marineball if they have to, can still kite and kill banelings just fine as long as they sprint off of creep to do it. Banelings are sweet vs. marines but they are hardly an I WIN button.
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| # ? Nov 5, 2010 22:19 |
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yazirian posted:The funny thing about that to me is, the ones that don't leave until they have stim, and think to split their marineball if they have to, can still kite and kill banelings just fine as long as they sprint off of creep to do it. Banelings are sweet vs. marines but they are hardly an I WIN button. get infestors and taunt him in your allotted 6 seconds asking 'how you gonna kite me now, jimmy?' 
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| # ? Nov 5, 2010 22:29 |
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How do you beat a FE/Early expand protoss who makes colossi/stalker balls of death
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| # ? Nov 5, 2010 22:29 |
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Pizer posted:How do you beat a FE/Early expand protoss who makes colossi/stalker balls of death I asked this question, the answer is there really isn't anything if he can fight you in a choke. Ultralisk/roach works okay if you can get a decent surround but otherwise it gets owned.
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| # ? Nov 5, 2010 22:52 |
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Do not engage colossus in chokes
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| # ? Nov 5, 2010 22:55 |
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Pizer posted:How do you beat a FE/Early expand protoss who makes colossi/stalker balls of death If he FEs then you can probably afford to expand twice in response. Then just make more stuff than him.
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| # ? Nov 5, 2010 22:56 |
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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Early roach/ling aggression against a FE protoss can be pretty effective, depending on the map. They don't really have the money to deal with it. Cost for cost roaches destroy gateway units. To me the big problem is more sentries than colossi. You can negate them fairly easily with corruptors. You need to be careful with where you engage the colossus ball because if your army is split up you will die horribly. I like being able to meet them mid map somewhere with lots of space to spread out a huge number of roaches and some hydras and if he turtles enough the army trade will almost always benefit the zerg. You can trade armies and replace your dead units in about a minute if you are diligent about larvae injects and saturating expos and just overrun him.
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| # ? Nov 5, 2010 23:10 |
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ufuk kongporn posted:Early roach/ling aggression against a FE protoss can be pretty effective, depending on the map. They don't really have the money to deal with it. Cost for cost roaches destroy gateway units. Protip: Have enough banelings to just blow his whole army up.
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| # ? Nov 6, 2010 03:56 |
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Wutog posted:Protip: Have enough banelings to just blow his whole army up. Do this no matter the army comp. All the time.
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| # ? Nov 6, 2010 05:26 |
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What the gently caress. I just played a match where i was on 5 bases to the terran's 2 and all he did was make thors and push out and win. Couldn't break in at all and i don't know what counters thors lol. Any advice is appreciated I probably could have saturated the expansions better but i was struggling to spend all my money and was staying close to capped so i wasn't sure what to do. 
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| # ? Nov 6, 2010 07:10 |
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hiphopanonymous posted:What the gently caress. I just played a match where i was on 5 bases to the terran's 2 and all he did was make thors and push out and win. Couldn't break in at all and i don't know what counters thors lol. Any advice is appreciated it's hard to recover if a terran manages to win a battle with a few thors remaining since they poo poo on units trickling in amazingly hard. If they lack alot of marines magicboxed mutas destroy them and if it's ONLY thors (which it usually isn't, don't feel like watching the replay though!) then mass zergling will beat them. Other than that it's a matter of good army positioning, flanking, and actually microing (IE: Micro your roaches into range of the thors slowly instead of letting them jostle for position behind one another) OR of not letting the terran get a mass of thors OR just outmacroing him so it doesn't matter.
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| # ? Nov 6, 2010 07:24 |
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hiphopanonymous posted:What the gently caress. I just played a match where i was on 5 bases to the terran's 2 and all he did was make thors and push out and win. Couldn't break in at all and i don't know what counters thors lol. Any advice is appreciated As I saw it you have a huge food advantage but squandered it when you didn't magic box the thors in his base. You can't just a click or target fire thors with mutas. You need to fly over the thors and stop over them so your mutas remain spread out and they can destroy thors pretty effectively. Also, roaches would have also been helpful against terran mech. I saw you had like 18 zerglings when his doom push was half way to your base. I didn't watch carefully but you might not have seen it until too late because you didn't spread creep.
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| # ? Nov 6, 2010 07:38 |
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hiphopanonymous posted:What the gently caress. I just played a match where i was on 5 bases to the terran's 2 and all he did was make thors and push out and win. Couldn't break in at all and i don't know what counters thors lol. Any advice is appreciated You still need to work on those things I pointed out last time, and the good things (expanding/droning) I pointed out last time were still good. The problem with this one (or at least the thing I'm going t talk about) is you played that match way to passively. If you let a terran sit in his base/expand and don't do anything to him for 16+ minutes you're not going to do well. Pressure him, early fake a baneling bust, try and get mutas in his minerals before he has 8 thors, anyhting really. The key to beating an 8+ thor army is to never let them get 8 thors, pressure and kill stuff so he can't keep the numbers high. A couple small things, when you went in with that baneling/speedling mix towards his nat, be sure to send some (not a lot.. like 6 or 8) lings ahead of your banelings. That way they absorb the front line fire so your banelings can get in range of stuff when they blow up. Then, once they're dead mop up with speedlings (send 6 or so into his main to hit the mineral line). As others pointed out magic box your mutas. The number of mutas you had when you first went to harass his minerals can kill 2 thors when magic boxed. Don't be afraid of them.
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| # ? Nov 6, 2010 07:48 |
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hiphopanonymous posted:What the gently caress. I just played a match where i was on 5 bases to the terran's 2 and all he did was make thors and push out and win. Couldn't break in at all and i don't know what counters thors lol. Any advice is appreciated If you plan on getting 42 mutas, start upgrading them. Hell, if you economy is off the charts, build another spire for upgrades (Ok, I don't know if it's worthwhile but it would still be pretty baller nonetheless). If I have enough for more than 5 mutas when my spire finishes, I always start upgrade attack lvl 1 instead of making the 6th muta. Upgrades in general. Not a single weapons or armor (ground or air) the whole game. Mutas shine the most when you are harassing his base, splitting his army, occupying his APM, killing off workers/attachments/buildings/stray seige tanks. When fastforwarding, I think you only attacking from two different angle (far right and far left). The bottom of his main wasn't defended that well and when you got your first few waves of mutas, you had a pretty big window to attack and just let them sit there. Also, I think at one point there were a couple dozen mutas just sitting in your base while you were trying to harass with about 10 other ones. You could have easily taken out all his base AA at several points and won the game convincingly. Your question about handling mass thors isn't really relevant here as you just squandered your army. If you don't have an army, you will never kill thors. I stopped watching after the mutas died. ufuk kongporn posted:As I saw it you have a huge food advantage but squandered it when you didn't magic box the thors in his base. If you watch the replay, he does magic box one time before he throws his mutas away. No need to baby him about it. Probably an unnoticed misclick until it was too late (conceivable with ~50 APM). Will Styles posted:As others pointed out magic box your mutas. The number of mutas you had when you first went to harass his minerals can kill 2 thors when magic boxed. Don't be afraid of them. Though, be weary magic boxing in his base. Any decent terran will pull SCVs to repair. DTMTCM fucked around with this message at Nov 6, 2010 around 08:05 |
| # ? Nov 6, 2010 07:55 |
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Cool thanks guys. When i lost the mutas in his base i almost cried.i thought i had them spread enough but he instagibbed them and i was like blehhh game over. Shoulda hit his nat i think
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| # ? Nov 6, 2010 07:56 |
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If you're decently teched up and and it's late game some broodlords will do wonders against terran mech, as they screw up the targeting.
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| # ? Nov 6, 2010 08:19 |
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mutas are never an effective counter against thors. All magic box does is makes it so they don't die totally instantly.
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| # ? Nov 6, 2010 15:02 |
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At 5 bases shouldn't you be making hive tech? Once you have 3 decently saturated it seems like you need to make a Hive.
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| # ? Nov 6, 2010 15:25 |
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Drone_Fragger posted:mutas are never an effective counter against thors. All magic box does is makes it so they don't die totally instantly. Cost for cost I agree, but a heavy muta army will often always be ahead in cost of thors and if you are careful it's pretty easy to pick off 1 or 2 thors as they come if he is going mech and is low on marines. The marines are scarier than the thors. DTMTCM posted:If you watch the replay, he does magic box one time before he throws his mutas away. No need to baby him about it. Probably an unnoticed misclick until it was too late (conceivable with ~50 APM). He asked for comments. I didn't think I was babying him and certainly didn't intend to. I would certainly rather see in a replay of one of my losses that I had a huge head and lost it in an easily correctable way than to see that I was behind the entire time.
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| # ? Nov 6, 2010 16:28 |
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Landsknecht posted:If you're decently teched up and and it's late game some broodlords will do wonders against terran mech, as they screw up the targeting. Yeah. Looks like the MLG Dallas tournament that is currently going on will have some good replays. In addition to Idra, keep an eye on LiquidRet, he just crushed LzGamer with a megamacro style, he pretty much had Lost Temple covered in creep in under 20 minutes. Apparently the way to beat 8-10 Thors moving out is with 8-ish Broodlords and a ton of roaches. Bracket info with links to replays here, the Ret/LzGamer match just finished so no replays yet maybe later today. Idra should be playing soon: http://www.mlgpro.com/ci/brackets/p...c2/open/winners
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| # ? Nov 6, 2010 16:56 |
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Drone_Fragger posted:mutas are never an effective counter against thors. All magic box does is makes it so they don't die totally instantly. There is no counter to thors other than throwing an assload of units away. If a game goes lategame/t3 for me, its completely over. I don't have the ability to exert the kind of control the lovely t3 units have for zerg. At least this way I wind up with shorter games overall.
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| # ? Nov 7, 2010 07:05 |
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Zwabu posted:
Fixed that for you.
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| # ? Nov 7, 2010 07:06 |
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DigitalMocking posted:Fixed that for you. THIS IS WHY THIS IS WHY THIS IS WHY I LOSE
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| # ? Nov 7, 2010 07:43 |
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hiphopanonymous posted:THIS IS WHY No not at all, I'm not qqing about it, its just how you play. If you get to a point where a terran has massed 6 - 8 thors and some support, you'd better have macrod the poo poo out of the map and engage him at the right spot. My only real gripe with terran is the Planetary Fortress to be honest. Mostly because I just hate that damned thing. I find the races relatively balanced right now, just depends on how the game goes and how you play it. Let a terran turtle up, get an expo and start cranking out upgraded mech, you're probably going to get handed your rear end, and deservedly so.
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| # ? Nov 7, 2010 08:06 |
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Here is a ZvZ that frustrated me that illustrates what I've been doing lately that isn't working (I'm DankNugsBro): TicKleMeElmO vs DankNugsBro on Metalopolis My thinking: It's a large map, map control will be vital so I should at least have speedlings in the beginning. After seeing a FE, I thought I could pull workers off gas, make a large mass of speedlings and get my expo up. The only problem is I don't really know where to go after that. In hindsight, it looks like I should not have gotten a lair or droned up near the end, but how do I know what to do? From my thinking, it seems like it's a gamble if he drones/techs up or masses speedlings. Should I have done more with my overlords? (Note: I was about to gg out at the end but he gg'd first so I just left to go take a dump.)
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| # ? Nov 7, 2010 09:14 |
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If my Terran or Protoss opponent fast expands what should I do?
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| # ? Nov 7, 2010 09:29 |
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Periodiko posted:If my Terran or Protoss opponent fast expands what should I do? Drone up hard.
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| # ? Nov 7, 2010 10:12 |
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| # ? May 23, 2013 22:01 |
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I had a great idea for ZvZ to run some zerglings past an enemy overlord, then loop them round and do it again so it looks like you're massing a huge force outside their base. It worked beautifully, he fell for it and responded by putting everything into his own massive ling army. Which he then used to overrun me  But I was already on the backfoot that game when I tested it. Wouldn't mind trying it out while I guard my ramp with roaches and drone up.
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| # ? Nov 7, 2010 11:42 |
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