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Godinster
Jan 2, 2005

No more tripping, Emery

Martytoof posted:

in addition to the "cents per gigabyte" UBB thing. If you hit the "Well Americans have this and this, why are we so behind?", maybe it'll be sensationalist enough to give birth to a soundbite or something. If nothing else, it might just hit some nationalistic pride nerve.

It seems as this is the best approach in any case. Compare Canada negatively to the USA and people get in a tiff about it very easily.

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Martytoof
Feb 25, 2003



Awesome.

Awesome to
the MAX.




Godinster posted:

It seems as this is the best approach in any case. Compare Canada negatively to the USA and people get in a tiff about it very easily.

And in this case it happens to be true

kuddles
Jul 16, 2006

Like a fist wrapped in blood...

The Gunslinger posted:

Anyway that's the background, I would just use a broadstrokes "They want you to pay for expensive cable packages and stop you from watching youtube/netflix!" approach.
This. You'll probably be limited in time, be put on the spot, and they will splice anything you say into 3-second talking points. I would focus on (a) internet has been eating up cable/internet revenues and they're trying to block that and (b) All estimates point to gigabytes costing them pennies.

Especially the latter. Someone representing the pro-UBB side is going to spew about "only tiny amount of heavy users will be affected", "independent ISP's and bandwidth hogs got a free ride for so long" and "We spent billions on the infrastructure" so I would hammer down on the "I believe everyone should pay for their fair share of internet they use, but this is a ripoff/ridiculous/much more expensive than other countries/etc." More detail will probably get cut so it's best to just get across that this is a cash grab by monopolies and/or means no real competition is allowed, which certainly would appeal to the average person who doesn't get it, especially since half the country has a hatred for Bell already.

kuddles fucked around with this message at Feb 3, 2011 around 18:24

LitigiousChimp
Sep 14, 2002

Sputty thinks I'm awesome and I deserve a kitten avatar!

Kreeblah posted:

Seriously, make a comparison to charging tolls on roads ostensibly to clear congestion at rush hour. , I know, but it's not going to do a drat thing there either and it's something people will understand is bullshit.
That's not a good analogy. Road tolls could help reduce congestion because they would encourage commuters to use public transit. There is no "public transit" option for internet access, so all UBB is going to do is force us to act like its 1999 again when it comes to how we use the internet.

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

I see a ship in the harbor
I can and shall obey
But if it wasn't for your misfortune
I'd be a heavenly person today


LitigiousChimp posted:

That's not a good analogy. Road tolls could help reduce congestion because they would encourage commuters to use public transit. There is no "public transit" option for internet access, so all UBB is going to do is force us to act like its 1999 again when it comes to how we use the internet.

No it is a good analogy. If you institute road tolls during rush hour in a place where there is no public transit, the only effect is a few people would carpool. The internet is the highway with no public transit.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.

It doesn't matter to be honest. The other side is using bad analogies, outright dishonesty and whatever it takes to get their goal accomplished. Say whatever sounds good in a sound bite.

Nomenklatura
Dec 4, 2002

If Canada is to survive, it can only survive in mutual respect and in love for one another.


Kreeblah posted:

People should suggest expensive road tolls to prevent rush hour congestion every time somebody tries that line. It's the same flawed concept, but it'd probably make more sense to people who don't really get this whole "internet" thing.
He said that he's "in favor of usage-based driving" in a different tweet.

So, yes, he's a right-wing nut that lucked into a bully pulpit thanks to a marginal ability to write and an enviable ability to make Useful Friends in High Places. (Just like most of these fucks.)

Dudebro
Jan 1, 2010
I TO UNDERAGE GYMNASTS


Possible talking points?

Australia was in the same situation that we are in now, perhaps even worse. Now they have a national broadband plan underway as we speak, and with plans to have speeds 50 times faster than what's available in Canada. If they can do it, why can't we? They are also a huge country with densely populated urban centres.

Countries like Sweden, South Korea, and Japan have much cheaper, unlimited usage at ten times the speeds that we have and they are all much more densely populated than Canada. Why are they doing just fine in terms of Internet access?

Bandwidth isn't something you have to dig out of a hole and stockpile so there's no comparison to resources like electricity or gas where they have to be generated somewhere. Bandwidth shouldn't be treated in the same way at all, which is what some companies are doing.

YouTube is barely 6 years old. No one knows what we're going to have 5 years from now. If UBB were allowed, we would be behind every other nation that is ready to take hold of the next big thing.

The US is leaps and bounds ahead of us and they themselves are leaps and bounds behind many other nations. Where does that leave us?

Highways are congested because people drive to and from work in similar windows of time, it doesn't matter what they're max speed is, and it doesn't matter how much they use the highway at any other time because it won't affect anyone else.

If Bell were in charge of our highways, you would have to pay them extra if you drove too much, even if you never drove during rush hours. (The highway is there and it can be used freely, just like the broadband infrastructure should be.)

Dudebro fucked around with this message at Feb 3, 2011 around 19:45

Nomenklatura
Dec 4, 2002

If Canada is to survive, it can only survive in mutual respect and in love for one another.


Oh, and Moist, you might want to bring up that question that nobody's answering: how is that a monthly cap will do anything for periodic congestion? People will still go bananas with streaming during the evening, contributing heavily to congestion, while being totally unaffected by the cap because they're off the computer at other times.

And if this is so necessary, why don't they have per-minute or per-byte charges for cable, too? It's the same pipe. For Cable and Bell's new IPTV thing, it uses up bandwidth just as much as the Internet does. Yet they're charging per-byte on the Internet and not on their content. Even if the lines were actually congested—which they aren't—its their television content that's taking up a lot of that bandwidth.

Edit: And, yes, bring up international comparisons. Make the point that Australia and New Zealand are the only other countries that have had this, and they have to transmit their data under the ocean. Canada doesn't have that sort of excuse. We just have exploitative monopolies.

Nomenklatura fucked around with this message at Feb 3, 2011 around 19:38

Nomenklatura
Dec 4, 2002

If Canada is to survive, it can only survive in mutual respect and in love for one another.


Oh, and for God's sake, if you get the opportunity BRING UP THE SOLDIER'S WIFE THAT CAN'T VIDEO-CHAT WITH HER HUSBAND.

You'll need to be general since nobody knows who this guy is, do a "stories going around" or "people on the Internet are talking about" or stuff like that, but bring it up if you can. Guaranteed that nobody's going to expect "YOU HATE THE TROOPS" from you hippy anti-Bell nerds, and it'll blow their heads off.

Dingusamongus
Jul 4, 2005

Live, or Die Trying


kuddles posted:


Especially the latter. Someone representing the pro-UBB side is going to spew about "only tiny amount of heavy users will be affected", "independent ISP's and bandwidth hogs got a free ride for so long" and "We spent billions on the infrastructure" so I would hammer down on the "I believe everyone should pay for their fair share of internet they use, but this is a ripoff/ridiculous/much more expensive than other countries/etc." More detail will probably get cut so it's best to just get across that this is a cash grab by monopolies and/or means no real competition is allowed, which certainly would appeal to the average person who doesn't get it, especially since half the country has a hatred for Bell already.

These are some good points. The argument about only a few heavy users being affected is changing so quickly. With so many sites streaming video, Canadians being voracious users of Youtube, and content moving towards HD, the bandwidth of a normal user is gaining exponentially. So for your Moms and Dads user who rarely use the web for anything but downloading some family photos and videos or viewing them, video skyping, going to CBC, etc, their little 25 gig accounts are going to go over their caps easily very soon. If pro-UBB people are so infatuated with fairness, as Kuddles mentions, it is the unfair gouging for that price/GB has to be also addressed.

This policy, what ever gets worked out, needs to be more forward thinking and not just reactive to current perceived problems.

orange lime
Jul 24, 2008



Ultimately, what needs to happen is

1) the CRTC mandate actual competitive behaviour, most importantly maintaining the requirement for Bell et al. to lease their lines at wholesale prices and the prevention of any price-fixing or -dictating by the incumbents; and
2) any incremental costs be regulated nationwide such that if a cost-per-gigabyte is actually implemented, it can never be more than 200% of the incremental cost to the incumbent.

More simply, Bell can't be allowed to cut off access, dictate prices or impose caps on their wholesale customers, and if caps are introduced at the consumer level they must reflect the reality of the cost and not some made-up number.

Ultimately, that will lead to better quality of service to everyone, because that's what competition DOES. Bell won't go out of business; they'll just be forced to actually improve service and innovate to stay with the rest of the pack.

Whimsy
Jan 8, 2001


Meeting No. 54 INDU - Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology. This is the Canadian parliament meeting where they are discussing the UBB decision.

Hirez
Feb 3, 2003

Weber scored 49 points?



What about mentioning something like if you downloaded for 18-20* hours at the download rate they offer, that you would reach the cap. So essentially you can use your monthly plan for less than 24 hours before you would be charged extra.


*I don't know the calculation off-hand, but I think it's something like that? Someone who knows what they're doing should probably give an accurate figure if you go with this




vvv There you go, so you can use your internet for 30 minutes per day before you will go over the cap.

Hirez fucked around with this message at Feb 3, 2011 around 21:22

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

I see a ship in the harbor
I can and shall obey
But if it wasn't for your misfortune
I'd be a heavenly person today


Hirez posted:

What about mentioning something like if you downloaded for 18-20* hours at the download rate they offer, that you would hit reach the cap. So essentially you can use your monthly plan for less than 24 hours before you would be charged extra.


*I don't know the calculation off-hand, but I think it's something like that? Someone who knows what they're doing should probably double check

If you have a 25 GB plan, for example, it only take 11 hours 22 minutes 40 seconds to exceed it if you download at 5 megabits per second.

ZeeBoi
Jan 17, 2001



Well, seems like the CRTC has no plans to actually put an end to UBB, just see that it will be "implemented differently."

univbee
Jun 3, 2004

Let's maintain dazzling beer indefinitely.


Hirez posted:

*I don't know the calculation off-hand, but I think it's something like that? Someone who knows what they're doing should probably give an accurate figure if you go with this

Every megabit you have means 450 megabytes an hour.

univbee fucked around with this message at Feb 3, 2011 around 21:25

ZShakespeare
Jul 20, 2003

The stroke of death is as a lover's pinch, Which hurts and is desired.

Has the UBB issue already been discussed? I'm watching CPAC, and they are talking about the Canada-Panama free trade act.

less than three
Aug 9, 2007

Fire Sights and LED Lights

ESC 2010 Never Forget

ZShakespeare posted:

Has the UBB issue already been discussed? I'm watching CPAC, and they are talking about the Canada-Panama free trade act.

http://parlvu.parl.gc.ca/ParlVu/tim...nceFormatID=463

Streaming Live.

The Dark One
Aug 19, 2005

I'm your friend and I'm not going to just stand by and let you do this!


less than three posted:

http://parlvu.parl.gc.ca/ParlVu/tim...nceFormatID=463

Streaming Live.

Conrad von Finckenstein is telling everyone now that IPTV doesn't go over the internet.

Martytoof
Feb 25, 2003



Awesome.

Awesome to
the MAX.




Does Konrad von Whatever not speak english or what is happening here? Why is this translated?

thexerox123
Aug 17, 2007



Martytoof posted:

Does Konrad von Whatever not speak english or what is happening here? Why is this translated?

He speaks french in response to francophones.

Martytoof
Feb 25, 2003



Awesome.

Awesome to
the MAX.




Oh. Why did I forget that?

ZeeBoi
Jan 17, 2001



This hearing has made one thing clear: The CRTC hasn't got a loving clue about what they allowed in their decision.

Crumbletron
Jul 21, 2006

KNÆLE.


So basically he's saying in 60 days they'll make the same decision again?

edit: oh my god it's clear that no one there has any loving idea what they're talking about

Godinster
Jan 2, 2005

No more tripping, Emery

Although she's on our side, this lady has no idea how bandwidth works either.

Martytoof
Feb 25, 2003



Awesome.

Awesome to
the MAX.




Bullshit it won't concern her. Anyway, that was the worst back and forth.

I wish they'd bring in some qualified technical experts to question him.

Whoah, I can barely understand him, can we bring back the translator?

Crumbletron
Jul 21, 2006

KNÆLE.


Finally someone bringing up the fact that congestion may not be a legit issue.

Finkenstein saying people who stream movies aren't heavy users. What.

This Peter Braid seems pretty well-informed, at least, I just hope he can see through the bullshit.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.

I'm at work and can't see the stream, did they say they're going to rescind it or is the government going to have to repeal it for them?

Migishu
Oct 22, 2005

I'll eat your fucking eyeballs if you're not careful



Holy poo poo this guy hasn't got a leg to stand on. He seriously has no idea what he's talking about.

Martytoof
Feb 25, 2003



Awesome.

Awesome to
the MAX.




"If you can tell me how to do it I'll gladly do it"

So basically they have no idea how to future proof these decisions, thanks CRTC.

Godinster
Jan 2, 2005

No more tripping, Emery

The Gunslinger posted:

I'm at work and can't see the stream, did they say they're going to rescind it or is the government going to have to repeal it for them?

They're going to look at it for 60 days. Which is terrible.

Martytoof
Feb 25, 2003



Awesome.

Awesome to
the MAX.




gently caress you, it's not paying for what we use. It's paying 5000% for what we use.

Migishu
Oct 22, 2005

I'll eat your fucking eyeballs if you're not careful



"Why don't business users follow the same example?"

BAM! Left hook from the democrats

Crumbletron
Jul 21, 2006

KNÆLE.


Finkenstein: obviously if you pay Bell and Rogers MORE they'll increase capacity more

Martytoof
Feb 25, 2003



Awesome.

Awesome to
the MAX.




I'm not sure where he's going with this large business thing.

edit: Oh drat nevermind there we go

Crumbletron
Jul 21, 2006

KNÆLE.


"Per gigahertz cap"

- dude from the CRTC

univbee
Jun 3, 2004

Let's maintain dazzling beer indefinitely.


Parachute Underwear posted:

"Per gigahertz cap"

- dude from the CRTC

I will go on the record to say that I will happily cap my GigaHertz to 5 in exchange for unlimited Gigabytes.

Crumbletron
Jul 21, 2006

KNÆLE.


Nice point there on global competition.

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Migishu
Oct 22, 2005

I'll eat your fucking eyeballs if you're not careful



"Why do we have caps and lovely internet and other countries don't?"

Bam, right hook from the Liberals.

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