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So this week the CRTC has ruled that the big guys (Bell and Rogers, etc) can apply usage based billing to wholesale ISP accounts (independent ISPs) using their networks. What does this all mean? Some brief history which may not be completely accurate: A long time ago it was ruled that since Bell Canada has a complete monopoly over the phone lines they have to resell their DSL and other services in a wholesale manner to create some small amount of competition in the market. Seems like a sweet deal for Bell right? They get paid even when their competitors sign up customers. Well what happened was that Bell started moving toward usage limits, throttling and caps on their DSL all while raising their prices to make mo' money. The independent ISPs reselling the wholesale service were offering unlimited bandwidth at much cheaper prices. Some were even offering affiliate programs with discounts for referrals. For the record, I pay $21 / Month for Teksavvy DSL thanks to this. Naturally once every tech savvy person in Canada started spreading the word, signing up the whole family including grandma, the independents started eating Bells lunch. Bell responded in the way only a spoilt Canadian monopoly can and whined to the government to stop these evil competitors from... competing. The CRTC, which regulates this sort of thing, seems to be an organization full of back slapping good old boys from the cable and phone industry which exists to give the government thumbs up when this sort of thing comes up. Even with a big coalition of independent ISPs and rafts of lawyers things havent gone well for them with the CRTC. This latest ruling essentially opens the door for Bell to not only charge their wholesales prices and throttle different protocols, but now to also charge overage fees: quote:Under the plan, Bell will charge wholesale service providers a flat monthly fee to connect to its network, and for a set monthly usage limit per each ISP customer the ISP has. Beyond that set limit, users will be charged per gigabyte, depending on the speed of their connections. Customers using the fastest connections of five megabits per second, for example, will have a monthly allotment of 60 GB, beyond which Bell will charge $1.12 per GB to a maximum of $22.50. Another important thing in that quote: wholesale customers are stuck with a very old 5mb DSL service. Bell itself now offers a 25mb service but aren't letting the independents use that service. The independents now have to pay for providing bandwidth to their customers through their networks, then pay Bell for the wholesale DSL service, then pay Bell for the bandwidth if the customers go over 60GB of usage. Its insane. The timing could not be more awful, since we just got Netflix streaming here in Canada. In short, I expect that this will effectively kill off or cripple any competition in the ISP market. Then, years from now, our government will be scratching its head wondering why our country holds the title for worst and most expensive internet access in world. More info here including a forum thread where polite Canadians get angry: http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/CRTC-Approves-Wholesale-Usage-Billing-111145
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Oct 31, 2010 16:54
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marketingman posted:Oh wait, I'm talking about Telstra and Australia, you guys in Canada are getting shafted the same way now too? Fight it while you still can, get that infrastructure owned by the government. Honestly I wish that the independents around here would band together and build some sort of alternate infrastructure but I suspect they just don't have the resources to do it yet. Bell struck at just the right time to crush any chances of an alternate network being created to compete with them. Its really frustrating as a taxpayer because this ongoing saga is the first time I've written my MP and the CRTC about anything. I can see already that this is going to turn out as bad as our mobile services are: Just a big oligopoly with all the players pretending to compete with each other. 8ender fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Nov 1, 2010 |
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Nov 1, 2010 05:44
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teethgrinder posted:"The average user doesn't need more than that." "The average user doesn't need more than that*" * As long as they don't use a competing media service like iTunes, Youtube or Netflix and keep using our land line or mobile service instead of subscribing to a competing VOIP provider.
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Nov 3, 2010 05:16
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Pivo posted:Hm... I have 20mbit ADSL2+ in Kitchener, ON with EyeSurf. No caps. I wonder why TekSavvy doesn't offer that. You bastard. Had me all excited for a second there  Waterloo / Kitchener only, and they only seem to offer 10mb DSL on their website.
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Nov 4, 2010 04:16
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mediaphage posted:What choice do they have? Yeah we don't have a choice anymore. Thats the point of this thread Mr. Fancy broadband.
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Nov 8, 2010 02:27
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Cryptic Edge posted:Thats why you (as a country) need to start demanding that the ISP's actually setup your social resources to be more in line with a first world country. Again, that is the whole point of this thread. We do have good ISPs that want to offer that kind of service but they're being crushed by two competitors that hold all the keys to the infrastructure. Demands have been made by the people and are falling on deaf ears because the government decision makers are all ex-industry executives throwing out high fives to the oligopolists. For Ontario really the only hope is that either Teksavvy or another independent finds millions of dollars somewhere and starts rolling out infrastructure; or a heavyweight, cash laden competitor comes up from the states, jumps through the legal and regulatory hoops, slaps the CRTC, and sets up shop before Bell can do anything about it.
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Nov 8, 2010 15:05
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less than three posted:Yeah, I get the direct mailers too. Add a landline for only $10! Cable $10 for 6 months! Or something. People get really roped into those sort of deals too. I had a friend that was convinced they were paying next to nothing for internet because "Rogers bundles have big discounts". After a few weeks of terrible service they did the math and it turned out that, surprise!, they were paying close to $50 / month even after the bundle discounts for pretty bog standard broadband.
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Nov 9, 2010 15:04
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Chris Knight posted:Saying "over here" is pretty loving meaningless you know. I believe you live in Toronto so you should be used to it. "Over here" is inside the GTA and "Over there" is anywhere else.
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Nov 17, 2010 05:46
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Martytoof posted:I think handing out exemptions on a per-app basis would almost be worse than what we have now. Oh most definitely. You just know that Bell and Rogers would monetize the poo poo out of a system like that. "Want people to use your service without blowing through their tiny bandwidth caps? We want a cut." People blowing through their caps is exactly what we need because its the only thing that seems to wake up the hibernating Canadian and make them angry. Just the other day my boss started going nuts because Rogers had apparently quietly moved them to a new internet plan with a cap and the first time they'd heard of it was when they went way over it using iTunes. Now Rogers is like a curse word to her. I think the overage fees pushed her over the edge. She's had the usual problems with Rogers outages, poo poo customer service, hostile billing, etc. This was enough to push her into looking at alternatives like Teksavvy, etc.
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Nov 18, 2010 15:34
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I don't doubt at all that Netflix will be getting a better selection as time rolls on. What I do see is Bell and Rogers getting increasingly hostile towards services like Netflix, iTunes, etc as they continue to eat their lunch and cannibalize tv subscriptions. The best indicator of this is that my mom of all people is considering just buying an Apple TV and season passes to her few favorite shows. She's worked out that this will be vastly cheaper to cable. If more baby boomers figure this out it'll be a big loving kick in the teeth to traditional tv service.
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Nov 18, 2010 19:02
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MA-Horus posted:CRTC isn't up for doing poo poo except giving the telcos a licence for printing more cash from subscribers with no other option. Depends how savvy and invested you are with the various carriers. I recently scored $78 / month for unlimited local and long distance calling, 6 GB data, visual voicemail, etc from Rogers. Its nice to not worry about minutes anymore. This isn't typical though, and they'll work you for as much as possible if you're a new customer.
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Dec 17, 2010 08:09
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less than three posted:HAY GUYS. BELL INTERNET, ONLY $31.95 A MONTH! Their website is ridiculous in how much they try to hide this poo poo. If you look at a $31.95/month internet package you're presented with some marketing fluff immediately. If you click "Pricing Details" to see a "price breakdown" you get the real price of that package ($41.95/month) and then it lists all the fantastic discounts you could receive if only you bought their satellite, phone, and mobile services to qualify for it. At this point there is another link "Full offer details". Only once you click this link are you made aware that the package includes only 25GB of bandwidth per month, and that overages are $2.00/GB thereafter. Also you're signing into a 1 year contract, paying a $29.95 activation fee, and can only cancel with a 30 day notice. It boggles my mind that the government doesn't seem interested in stopping this, but its pretty much the same thing we used to see with Bell and long distance calls. That bullshit was broken by Sprint and flood of cheap competitors offering flat rate long distance into the market. My only hope is that some ISP finds a way around Bells complete ownership of the infrastructure and starts undercutting them big time to establish themselves.
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Dec 24, 2010 08:13
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Pivo posted:WTF? I've been with Rogers for 5 years. I get 500min daytime 500min eve/wknd for local/LD/6gb data/visual voicemail etc but it costs me ~$160 per month after tax. What did you DO!? Since I'm paying so much for so little, I don't know how to downsize. I know long distance is still expensive and that's what kills it for me. Like this: *call Rogers billing* You: "Hi, I'm using my phone a lot now because of (insert something here) and I like the service but this is costing me too much. My friend has an unlimited minutes plan, I think I need that" Rogers: "I don't have access to that plan. I can give you (lovely deal)" You: "I'm sorry this is just too much to pay, I think I might have to cancel if theres no way to bring this bill down" *Retentions activated* Rogers: "Let me transfer you to customer relations, they may be able to help you" *Olde timey barter time* The Rules: - Polite polite polite - You like the service but are paying too much. Do not differ from this - No yelling, no cursing, no swearing, no Rogers bashing - If you don't get anywhere then make an excuse and get off the phone and try again later - The last rule and the first rule are the most important rules
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Dec 25, 2010 15:56
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Pivo posted:Rogers: "Well, you still have 2 and a half years left on your contract..." Its worth trying again. I got my unlimited everything contract and an iPhone 4 upgrade just over a year into a three year contract. Like I said, call up, let them know you're unhappy and can't afford it, and work from there. They may be lovely at it but its their job to try to keep customers happy and paying for service. If you get snubbed then try again. Hell wait a week and try again. Call them regularly until you get somewhere. They won't relent just from your pestering, but it gives you a better chance that eventually you'll get that magic person that finally offers something to make you happy. Its stupid that it has to be this way. They're trying to make internet access the same game. Contracts and lock ins, and if you're a heavy user then negotiations and begging for secret plans or paying a small fortune for the regular ones. At least with phones the high price of the handsets made the contracts make a little bit of sense. 8ender fucked around with this message at 07:17 on Dec 30, 2010 |
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Dec 30, 2010 07:12
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less than three posted:So my outrage has been noticed and CBC Marketplace asked me to do a TV interview tomorrow. Holy poo poo, awesome. What do you plan on bringing up if possible?
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Jan 6, 2011 23:16
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Can someone try to capture it and post it to Youtube or something? I don't have cable.
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Jan 7, 2011 22:43
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I'm just startled to find out they don't work everything over with some brutal industrial strength compression already.
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Jan 8, 2011 06:08
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univbee posted:The bigger issue is that Canadian ISPs don't seem interested in implementing any sorts of solutions. While everyone bitches about Australian and New Zealand ISPs, at the very least they're are actually trying to tackle the problem and offer customers a lot of options. Freezones, increased traffic during off-hours...or hell, even just more reasonable overage charges. It costs money to move data, fine, but overage shouldn't be a 2000%+ markup. No one should end up with a $200+ suprise bill. The reason they aren't doing anything is because there isn't really a capacity problem, at least in Bell's case. Somehow Bell showed these numbers to the CRTC and instead of telling them to gently caress off they said "Oh that looks bad, sure go ahead with caps and traffic shaping" 
8ender fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Jan 26, 2011 |
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Jan 10, 2011 17:48
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I'd love so much for the independents to rise up and create their own network but thats probably just a pipe dream. More than likely they'll just whine some more and then be crushed 
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Jan 25, 2011 21:05
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Dudebro posted:What does this mean for me when I'm on Acanac's unlimited DSL?. Same thing as everyone else using Bells wholesale DSL service. Caps caps caps.
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Jan 27, 2011 16:54
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Dudebro posted:Yeah, but what about pricing? What will the prices be? Right now thats a big unknown. There is speculation but really its up to each ISP as to how they price these caps into their plans. We're all just waiting to see how bad its going to be. So I want to get cable internet but I've run into a funny problem. I've lived at my current house for a year now and just about a month ago realized I don't actually have cable running to it. Like no box outside, no cable period. I get all my TV online so I never really had a need for a cable line. Does anyone here know how I would get a cable line installed and what it would cost? 8ender fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Jan 27, 2011 |
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Jan 27, 2011 17:26
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Nomenklatura posted:Yeah, this is what's bugging me. UBB as an ITMP measure might make sense if they were up against some sort of hard physical limit, like spectrum or some such thing. But that's not the problem. The PROBLEM is that they under-anticipated demand in the age of ubiquitous streaming and downloadable media. I feel I should post this again Bell's capacity is doing just fine. There is no problem except that Bell wanted to monetize per-gigabyte and was losing customers to independents using their DSLAM because of it. If there is capacity problems they're really localized. Bell admits this itself in its CRTC filings.
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Jan 28, 2011 17:28
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Argh, this is hosed up. I've been with Teksavvy since 2006 on the same stupid old 5mb DSL and because I moved in 2009 I'm not eligible for the "grandfathering" plan and I'm getting the new 25gb cap. Really drat aggravating. I run a business out of my house on the side so I'm looking into Teksavvy Business DSL, which is currently uncapped and apparently will only get caps of 300gb in the future. Might be my ticket out. I'll be paying $60 / month for a 6mb connection in 2011. Welcome to the new Canadian internet. Edit: Netflix already doubting its future in Canada: http://business.financialpost.com/2011/01/27/crtc-petitioned-to-stop-usage-based-billing-as-netflix-questions-its-canadian-future/ I just bought a Boxee box just for Netflix 
8ender fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Jan 30, 2011 |
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Jan 30, 2011 04:03
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madprocess posted:March 2011: April 2011: CRTC mandates that local phone call usage be capped and excess usage will incur charges based on a nominal rate set by the major telcos. This is due to local calling "hogs" that spend too much time on the phone. The first 100 minutes of local calling per month is included in the price of each landline, after which an overage charge of $2.00 per minute will be levied. This overage will be extended to all wholesale customers that sell landline phone services.
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Jan 30, 2011 09:13
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skidooer posted:Perhaps I was mistaken. I thought 8ender was referring to the rural independent telephone companies scattered around the country, who own wires and are slowly, but surely, taking on the likes of Bell as they expand their operation areas into towns and, maybe one day, cities. Well no, but as an example of this Execulink, based in Oxford County, Ontario, where I live, has gotten a cool million to expand broadband across the entire county. I believe they're using a wireless last mile solution, and their service is expensive, but it is heartening to see alternatives popping up. Also GorillaNet is another good example of a local alternative that owns it infrastructure. They also have a neat idea where you get a 200gb cap and completely free "moonlighting" hours between 12-6am. I believe this is a pretty great idea to relieve congestion by encouraging customers to get their downloading done on off peak hours. http://gorillanet.ca/ Also: To the person above that asked about a business DSL account. Teksavvy has replied that I need a "Bell business phone line" before I can get that service. It looks like Bell sells "Business Phone" for about the same as we're paying right now for home phone. Not sure if I want to proceed at this point because I'm really hesitant to give Bell money for anything. I generally work from home. I do graphic design and move a lot of bandwidth each month. I do on average about 300gb combined so I need to find a solution other than paying over $100 each month for internet. As an aside, I just setup all of our remote staff with an online backup service and now I think I'm going to have to cancel it. The first time one of our staff blows over their cap because their laptop is backing up will mean some heat on me so it probably has to go.
8ender fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Jan 30, 2011 |
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Jan 30, 2011 19:13
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Bonzo posted:Someone here said that Teksavvy will only let you have business account if you have a Bell business line. But what about Dry DSL? That was me. Teksavvy told me that Dry "Business" DSL is also an option. Have no idea how you'd sign up for that though.
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Jan 31, 2011 19:11
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less than three posted:It's amusing how the tone has changed from the uninformed "gently caress you people downloading lots of jiggabites every month" now that they've received their notification about the impending slash to their own allocation. Well and theres been some good stats floating around out there like the "25gb only gets you around 25 hours of Netflix a month". Thats 50 minutes a day! More than enough if you're not an oink oink BANDWIDTH HOG. GO OUTSIDE AND GET SOME FRESH AIR YOU FREELOADERS
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Jan 31, 2011 23:42
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Viktor posted:So looks like the liberals have weighed in, guess emailing my Liberal MP helped out This may actually do more harm than good. If the conservatives were thinking of beating up on another federal agency in public (and they sure don't like the CRTC) then they might change their mind if it means looking like they're agreeing with the Libs.
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Feb 1, 2011 00:00
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Godinster posted:Funny how this is destroying apathy in the tech-savvy groups. Most of my friends from work who couldn't possibly have cared less about politics are now eyeing a vote for the Liberals or NDP solely based on this, including one who is a staunch Conservative voter and is not changing his position based on this issue alone. The thing that bothers me is that even if the CRTC ruling is overturned it really can't stop there or this will just keep coming back to haunt us. Really important basic infrastructure used by everyone in the country is locked up by a handful of megacorps right now, and they don't want to compete. Unless the ruling governmental party grows some balls and takes that infrastructure back, rolling it into a regulated non-profit wholesaler or something like that, then the current infrastructure owners will just continue to try out new and exciting ways of crippling their wholesale clients. They're so vertically integrated now that you really can't fault them for it; It makes the most business sense for them to do everything they can to ensure that customers are using all of the pieces from their stack rather than substituting in any of their competitors services.
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Feb 1, 2011 07:21
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Sneakernet is back: http://blog.indiecred.net/post/3048520519/the-price-of-data-in-canada
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Feb 1, 2011 15:42
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Isizzlehorn posted:As for Teksavvy cable, I'll definitely be all over that.. when they get it over here. Their track record for their cable roll out is abysmal right now. The most recent location they just got coverage in was... North York or something? Based upon their original estimates of roll out, I can look forward to the Durham Region getting service... sometime in 2013. I'm in Ingersoll Ontario. Cable internet will likely be eclipsed by wireless technologies before Teksavvy rolls it out here.
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Feb 3, 2011 08:22
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Dudebro posted:hahaha, that's a good point. My wife and I were talking about this last night and realized that if internet service was just a generous $0.10 / Gigabyte cost then we'd be paying around $26-32 a month for internet, which is pretty much exactly in line with what we pay Teksavvy right now. In a magical, perfect world, the CRTC would mandate a $0.05 / Gigabyte UBB fee to wholesalers using Bell and Rogers networks, do away with the flat fee, and order speed matching. Then I would enjoy my magical 50 megabit Teksavvy cable internet connection for $15 / Month. Also George Burger would be my grandpa 
8ender fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Feb 4, 2011 |
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Feb 4, 2011 01:31
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univbee posted:Rescheduling my lunch for this, no way in hell am I missing this. George Burger 
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Feb 8, 2011 20:31
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Godinster posted:Even then it's a ridiculous analogy. Everyone wants to use an analogy or simile to compare Internet traffic to. The only one that even begins to make sense is the road traffic one. I think its best to compare it to other technologies that work in similar ways. Like why our phone system never collapsed under the strain of "local calling hogs" and why we dont "run out of" cable television when everyone is watching the Superbowl.
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Feb 9, 2011 07:13
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Infinite posted:See, what I don’t understand is that the National Research Council Canada, Institute for National Measurement Standards issues certificates validating things like the measurement accuracy of gas pumps, scales in grocery stores etc. I've seen this brought up a few times on DSL Reports and its a very good point. Apparently the standards bodies that certify this sort of thing are essentially saying they're staying away from certifying any sort of bandwidth measuring device. It doesn't help that Bells own DPI hardware can apparently muck around with the numbers by dropping packets that are then still being counted towards the monthly total. This news about Bell overstating consumption points to exactly why it shouldn't be done without standards in place. As others have said here if Bell wants bandwidth to be treated like electricity then they should be forced to go all the way. Measurement standards, no monthly flat rate, and regulated pricing since they're a monopoly. I want a sealed glass box on a pole outside my house just like my electricity metre that no one can touch. Bell simply can't be allowed to have its cake and eat it too. I have no problem at all paying Teksavvy for every GB of my internet use as long as the prices are realistic (~$0.03-0.05 / GB) and I'm not paying $35 / month flat rate just to connect on top of that. Hell my internet bill would drop significantly even with $0.10 / GB, and I do north of 300GB every month.
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Feb 9, 2011 15:58
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The Gunslinger posted:Assuming UBB is somehow defeated, everyone is still stuck with the same 5mbit DSL they've had for the past ten years. Where are all of those infrastructure investments? God I loving hope not. I love Teksavvy to death, and I know their hands are tied, but 5mbit is not cutting it here at home anymore now that I work here most of the time. I have Tomato QoS with like 20 different rules now just to prioritize things like VOIP and GoToMeetings over HTTP downloads. Our connection is at capacity for most of the business day. I feel as bad as Bell breaking the news to my wife that I'm throttling her iTunes downloads so it doesn't interfere with my VNC. You have congestion issues Bell? gently caress you, I have congestion issues. Give up those sweet higher speed tiers to Teksavvy so I can use even more.
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Feb 11, 2011 15:34
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Armor-Piercing posted:Isn't that why there's been talk about separating wholesale and retail? I'm not really sure if I'm understanding it correctly, but I thought the idea was that if they were separate, the wholesale side (and its respective shareholders) would have to rely on increased wholesale sales to make profits, which would mean providing better infrastructure for the small ISPs buying from them to provide to their own customers. Yeah its not a bad system as long as the wholesaler is regulated pretty closely. Otherwise you'd be in the same situation a few years from now except with "Wholesale Internets Canada" in place of Bell. If one for-profit company holds the keys to the car then they'll eventually see that ripping off their customers is a great way to increase profits without messy investment. I think Australia figured this out, which is why they're busy rolling out a national broadband network. Its good that the conversation is moving in this direction though. I don't think we'd ever see a wholesaler situation happen but the more the argument moves in that direction the more likely it is that Bell will get nervous enough to back down completely. I believe a similar situation happened around 1990-92 with long distance and it resulted in the lines being opened for competition. Of course thats when the CRTC had brains and balls.
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Feb 11, 2011 16:04
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kuddles posted:Well, after much stumbling Bibic very clearly admitted that (a) there isn't any congestion on the last mile and (b) their primary goal in this whole thing is to force independent ISP's to not be able to differentiate their pricing. If the CRTC refuses to reverse their decision at this point, then there is no argument that they are misinformed but merely corrupt. That last hearing was pretty loving damning I'd say. More damning is the fact that the CRTC apparently went through this process already creating UBB and either didn't ask these very simple and very important questions, or did and just decided to side with Bell anyways.
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Feb 11, 2011 16:52
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Martytoof posted:This Bell guy is driving me crazy. He's a well oiled spin machine. Its like every slimy PR conversation tactic of the last 10 years rolled into one person. His speech is in some sort of uncanny valley of almost normal human conversation and it makes me uncomfortable just listening to how he puts words together to wriggle out of difficult questions. He may actually be a serpent. Either way he's getting drilled pretty hard in the hearings and by the likes of George Burger which is nice to see.
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Feb 11, 2011 23:05
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Backov posted:The thing is, when someone just tries to spin you need to treat him like a prosecutor. Make him either lie to you or admit that his premise is wrong. Did GB do any of that on the interview? Did the host? George Burger is pretty good at this, and he has a much different style than Mirko. While Bibic has that slick super-executive vibe Burger comes across as a honest, grizzled veteran executive who may or may not smell faintly of whisky. I think Burger wins for everyman appeal and it was a brilliant move for Teksavvy to take him on, especially since Teksavvy's CEO, Rocky, comes across like a Truck Driver. <3 George Burger 8ender fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Feb 12, 2011 |
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Feb 12, 2011 02:28
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