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dissss
Nov 10, 2007

I'm a terrible forums poster with terrible opinions.

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Pretty sure the Fit still has more usable interior space than either.

Also where the heck are those economy figures coming from? A Fit is rated a lot better than an Aveo here and my own experience would tend to agree with that.

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dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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Nitrox posted:

Also, abnormal height for it's footprint.

What are you talking about? All small cars are tall and upright, that's how you get an acceptable amount of space in there.

To be honest it sounds like you've just never been in a modern small car before which is understandable as North America doesn't really have any. Remember the 500 is a size class below a Fit or Fiesta (more similar to an i10 or Aygo or Micra)

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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eames posted:

I can’t wait to see the faces of all the "$30k is way too much for a sub-compact car!"-people when Porsche comes out with a small $60k city car and it will sell like hot cakes. Only a matter of time.



£30,000 sure but getting up there for a Toyota re-badge

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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Whichever way you slice it 70hp is horrible.

Consider a modern 500 weighs about the same or more than an EF Civic and even the most emissions strangled of EFs made 70hp

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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Yeah small capacity forced induction seems to be the way to go - a 105hp Golf (thats the 1.2l turbo) is actually surprisingly good on the road for instance.

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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VideoTapir posted:

Why do you hate freedom?

Well if the basic 1.4 Polo is freedom and the 1.2 F/I is some commie plot then I'm all for communism.

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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D C posted:

My first car (and least powerful) was a 90hp Golf TDI, had like 150lb/ft of torks but man it is/was slow as hell, I cant imagine anything slower.

That was a diesel though. Look at VWs current Golf range and you'll see the 105hp TSI is actually a bit quicker than the 105 TDI

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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Swastikaman posted:

I've always thought European cars were well-built, but that when they failed they failed catastrophically. So that statement bodes well for me. :D

German ones are closest to this, but even then you get as many niggling problems as catastrophic ones.

Certainly does not hold true for French or Italian vehicles though which are still forever falling apart in non-fatal ways.

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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Yep they are MUCH better in that regard than they were ten or so years back.

Takes a long time for the Punto/Brava memories to fade though ;)

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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I've never been able to find a comfortable driving position in any Italian made car regardless of its size.

Would probably be driving an Alfa 166 right now if it was ergonomically a bit better.

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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Mr. Wiggles posted:

I love the 500, I really do. But when will we see more Fiat models here in the states?

What model(s) are you hoping to see?

I don't think there is a lot of chance of seeing the Panda, and there really isn't anything else worth buying in their current range.

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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The Yaris is a bigger kid too, at least the US spec ones are.

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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KozmoNaut posted:

That's because you fatty fatty Americans mostly buy the sedan ;)

Watch you you're calling an American :p

What a lot of people in North America don't realise is the Yaris is actually two rungs up from the bottom of the Toyota UK range size wise.

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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They all have really wide seats compared to the typical Japanese market cars I'm used too.

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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There isn't an issue to be cured with the clutch though - thats just what Fiats feel like and you'll quickly get used to it.

Pretty sure the 2 is drive by wire but the system is relatively transparent in it - I don't think they've done anywhere near the amount of monkeying with it in the quest for fuel economy as a lot of other manufacturers did. Surprised to hear the US spec 2 actually drives better than the Fiesta overall though, definitely a reversal from the ones available in my part of the world.

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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Corbet posted:

If only FIAT would bring over some of their bigger vehicles...

Which one do you like the look of?

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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Jork Juggler posted:

Fiat sells an 85HP version of the 500 in Europe called the TwinAir. It is powered by an 875cc 2cyl turbo, and apparently makes the car more fun to drive even if it is a little bit slower. If either this thing or the Mazda 2 with the 1.3L can pull of a 50MPG highway rating, they would both find enough buyers.

They're not designed as highway cars - they are meant to get very good economy on the urban cycle.

That's not to say they wouldn't be good on the highway, that's just not where they're aimed.

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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grover posted:

Kinda funny when the program manager went through the laundry list of things they had to change to bring it to the US market. Jumbo cupholders as standard I can understand, but why the suspension changes, stronger rear end, more powerful engine, new glovebox, etc? Why wouldn't those have been in the Euro version, too?

Because those things all suit American tastes, not necessarily European ones.

When you're paying a lot more for fuel, insurance, registration etc things other than engine power become far more important.

I doubt any Italian (for instance) would say the basic model they get is 'dangerously underpowered'

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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wav3form posted:

They might if they have to merge on a modern american highway with semi trucks doing 80 mph and not moving over for you.

I take it you've never driven in Italy.

Edit: Yes I'm semi joking as European merges seem to be mostly set up better but European traffic can still be pretty crazy and they do make do with far less powerful cars on average.

dissss fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Aug 21, 2011

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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grover posted:

It's a city car, plain and simple. You can't escape physics- the shell might be stiff, but those crumple zones aren't enough to withstand a crash at highway speeds. If a crash with no crumple zones is like falling off the top of a building, the Fiat 500 is like putting two cheap mattress on top of the pavement.

To a certain extent thats true, but I' still rather crash in a new 500 than a fifteen
year old Camry/Maxima/generic mid sizer.

I actually like the overly aggressive Italian driving style - you always know where you stand and as long as you don't run into anything in front of you you can mostly trust the traffic behind to not run into the back of you. Then again I was in a comparatively big and powerful Renault Megane with tourist plates, both of which may have made the locals wary.

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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Mr. Wiggles posted:

Driving in Rome is an exhilerating experience. And it's funny to American sensibilities but the 500 is a pretty big car there.

Try driving a Renault Megane with the big(er) diesel diesel there - its like you're kind of the road :)

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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sliderule posted:

As to the Fiesta comparison, there is none. Whatever DNA the platform brought over was decimated by its upbringing at Ford. I had the Fiesta understeer on me in corners at speeds that I've never experienced in another car before. Reminded me of a minivan. I had to apologise to the salesman who accompanied me. I really had no clue that a new car could handle that poorly. Maybe it was lovely rubber, but what the car did when the grip ran out was abysmal.

My money is on massively overinflated tyres.

That said apparently the US market Fiesta is noticeably worse than the rest of world one (which is every bit as good as a 2)

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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Don't say you want the 1.2 until you've driven one - I can guarantee you'll no longer want it once you've experienced just how slow it is.

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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toaster_pastry posted:

I'm totally over the whole going fast thing. I just want a light weight car that is fun to toss around while zipping through the city.

There is a limit to that. The 8v 1.2 is just not a good engine in any way.

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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KozmoNaut posted:

I can't help but love your warped American sense of what constitutes "adequate acceleration". My car does 0-100kph in about 12 seconds. I have no problems keeping up with traffic.

I'm not American and have spent my fair share of time in slow cars (try a 1l auto Toyota Vitz our rental companies are so fond of, think 0-60 is over 13 seconds)

I would just never buy a car like that for my own usage, especially when the bigger engine options have no downsides and especially when you're used to much more power (which toaster_party will be given the North American Echo was a >100hp 1.5)

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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Jork Juggler posted:

Americans are afraid to rev their cars over 3,000 RPM, so they need to have adequate acceleration well below the power peak. My car's 0-60 is around 10 seconds and I never come up short in urban highway traffic, even at less than 2/3 throttle. If I drove it any faster, which I could do, I would be sneaking up behind and beside people faster than they could see me do it.

Be that as it may there is an absolute world of difference between 10s and high 12s 0-60

Even in Europe I can tell you I was much happier in a 130PS Megane diesel (0-60 in 9.5 or so) than a 105PS BMT Golf (about two seconds slower)

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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Actually I think the US model with a manual transmission would be a lot of fun in heavy traffic - even if its still slow its significantly less so and in my experience Fiats 16v models sound much better and are more willing to rev than the 8vs

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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IOwnCalculus posted:

And as someone who drives a premium-fuel vehicle, I do admit it's a loving pain to figure out where cheap gas actually is. Even Gasbuddy and stuff like that is unreliable because people will either only fill in the 87-octane number, or if they fill in the rest, it's likely as not to be bullshit numbers.

Do the prices not move roughly in sync? Where I am 95 is usually x cents more than 91 and 98 is x cents more than 95 - somewhere that has cheap 91 will still be cheap for higher octanes.

That said I've found going out of my way to get 'cheap' fuel seldom works out saving any money

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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leica posted:

I've always wondered about the Kizashi, I've seen a few and they look nice, but I've never heard or read anything about them. If they're made in Japan they should at least hold together well long term.

The reviews were pretty much 'not a bad attempt but you should buy a second hand 03-07 Accord Euro instead'

The CVT in them is pretty average too.

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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Fuel economy is important too, and full time 4wd is not good in that regard.

That's why Nissan shifted from a simple full time system to an on demand one back in the early 2000s

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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The basic Mazda2 is ~550lbs lighter than the 3.

If you used the same drive train in both cars the difference will be much less.

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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Phone posted:

Mazda2: 2306
Mazdaspeed3: 3281

Uh....

My point is once you cram all the Mazdaspeed bits into the 2 chassis you aren't going to see anything like that difference.

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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Porkchop Express posted:

I can't see this car driving on the mountain passes very well. As it is my current car, which is more powerful, even has issues on some of the grades, I can only imagine that this car would be crawling trying to get up it.

Just needs more revs - little Fiat motors are designed to be operated bouncing off the rev limiter.

Remember the US spec model is a comparatively powerful version.

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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sliderule posted:

It's comparable to the Mazda2 in that respect. Doing anything on the highway? Drop it into third. That engine's not doing anything fast below 4500 RPM on the highway.

This is pretty much any small car. My mums Swift Sport (with the big 125hp 1.6) is exactly the same way, no acceleration in 5th or even 4th.

Actually makes me miss my old B16a Integra - that had nothing below about 5500rpm

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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CommieGIR posted:

I find this funny, as all they have to do is look over at VW whom is selling Jetta/Passat/Toureg/Golf TDI's like hot cakes. And they share that $5k price tag increase.

Those are relatively good diesels compared to the one you'd find in a 500

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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InitialDave posted:

The 1.3 Multijet is an excellent engine?

Really? I thought it was pretty horrible and coarse and also not at all in keeping with the character of a small car.

To be fair I'm basing this off the Suzuki Swift which is the low power version though, Fiat doesn't sell a diesel 500 locally

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dissss
Nov 10, 2007

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KozmoNaut posted:

I had a Panda with the 75hp/145nm 1.3 Multijet. It's a good little engine, but you're always very distinctly aware that it's a diesel. It's not coarse as such, but there is significantly more noise and vibration than with a gasoline engine, especially at idle. Once you get going, it lessens.

More noise and vibration than say a VW or Toyota or Hyundai diesel too

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