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ToastyX
Mar 15, 2004
N
yaaarrr!


Number_6 posted:

If anyone knows where I can buy an inexpensive 22", 1680x1050 monitor, with at least 75 hz refresh and overall good image quality, and no discernible input lag, please post it here.
The 2209WA is exactly that, if you can still find one.



DrDork posted:

22" 1680x1050 monitors aren't hard to find. 75Hz though, is...uhh...well it'd be an odd bird, at the very least. Virtually no LCD monitors actually support 75Hz in any meaningful way.
I wouldn't say virtually none. It's true that many LCD monitors don't support higher refresh rates properly, but there are some that can. The problem is hardly anyone tests for higher refresh rates, and many people don't know how to test higher refresh rates properly because you have to add a custom resolution and deal with custom timing parameters while avoiding bandwidth limitations, and sometimes the video card driver can get in the way, so there isn't much data out there. I can only report on the ones I've seen myself. It used to be rare for non-TN monitors, but now there are a few that can do higher refresh rates without skipping frames:

22" Dell 2209WA (IPS, 1680x1050) - 76 Hz over DVI, best response times I've seen in an IPS panel, but seems to be discontinued
23" NEC EA231WMi (IPS, 1920x1080) - 83 Hz over DisplayPort, 74 Hz over DVI, but it doesn't have overdrive (response time compensation), so there's a little bit more motion blur than the Dell 2209WA
23" Samsung F2380 (PVA, 1920x1080) - 76 Hz over DVI, but the response times are visibly worse than the NEC

Someone mentioned they were able to get the Dell U2311H to do 75 Hz, but I haven't tested that one myself.

All those monitors have no significant lag either, which I consider more important than response times.

As for TN monitors, I don't usually test those, so I don't have a big list:

Samsung 226BW (A panel) - 77 Hz, confirmed myself
Dell E2209W - 75 Hz, I saw someone verify with photo evidence

If you're going to get a TN monitor for higher refresh rates, you might as well go for one of the 120 Hz monitors instead.



DrDork posted:

As was born out in the previous thread, response times are basically dirty lies and should (at most) be used as such:
Is the response time >10ms? If so, you'll probably notice ghosting/latency when gaming.
Is the response time <10ms? If so, you may or may not notice ghosting/latency when gaming regardless of what the number is.
Even that's not a good rule of thumb because the NEC EA231WMi is rated at 14 ms while the Samsung F2380 is rated at 8 ms, but the Samsung clearly has more ghosting than the NEC.

DrDork posted:

That is, the difference between 2ms, 5ms, and 8ms amount to measuring techniques and should be ignored. A 2ms panel coupled with a lovely processing chip will perform worse than an 8ms panel coupled with a nice and fast chip. Sadly, there's no way to know which is which without looking at individual reviews.
While the numbers themselves may be bullshit, there's some meaning behind the numbers:

TN:
5 ms = TN without overdrive
2 ms = TN with overdrive
1 ms = TN with bullshit

IPS:
6-8 ms = IPS with overdrive
12-16 ms = IPS without overdrive

VA:
They just make poo poo up.

People say TN panels are the fastest, but TN panels are only fast with certain gray-to-gray transitions. Manufacturers started using gray-to-gray so they could claim lower response times on TN panels. TN panels without overdrive are actually quite slow with dark objects moving against light backgrounds, with some transitions in the 25-30 ms range. Overdrive is designed to help speed up those transitions.

IPS is the opposite. They are faster than TN with dark objects moving against light backgrounds but are slower with light objects moving against dark backgrounds. IPS without overdrive never exceeds 25 ms, and IPS with overdrive brings those transitions down to under one frame, making them about as fast as TN panels.

VA panels are horrible with gray-to-gray transitions, with some transitions exceeding 50 ms. The only way to counteract that is to buffer frames to determine how much overdrive to apply, which is why VA panels with good overdrive have lag.

Basically, if you care about response times, TN with overdrive and IPS with overdrive are the fastest. They are about the same on average with TN being slightly better with gray-to-gray transitions and IPS being slightly better with other transitions.



Edit: I should also mention none of that takes the sample and hold effect into account, which is a much bigger problem that hasn't been properly addressed with LCD monitors. Each frame persists in your eyes for 10-15 ms, and when following motion, the image that persists in your eyes mixes with the image that's still on the screen, causing a blurring effect. CRT monitors don't have that problem because the image is only on the screen for a split second, but LCD monitors keep the image on the screen until the next refresh. Having a higher refresh rate reduces the holding period, but what's really needed is higher refresh rates + overdrive + proper backlight scanning, which no monitor seems to do. That is why even the fastest LCD monitors still have some motion blur compared to a CRT monitor.

ToastyX fucked around with this message at Dec 18, 2010 around 22:19

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DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

ToastyX posted:

The 2209WA is exactly that, if you can still find one.
Except it fails the inexpensive check miserably, by managing to be a $300-$400 22" monitor (if and when you can even find it--even refurbs are $250). If you're going to spend that much, you might as well step up to something better and newer, anyhow.

ToastyX posted:

Even that's not a good rule of thumb because the NEC EA231WMi is rated at 14 ms while the Samsung F2380 is rated at 8 ms, but the Samsung clearly has more ghosting than the NEC.
It works 90% of the time, though there are, as you say, particular monitors which go one way or the other against the rule. In practical terms, the processing chip (when present) has as much or more to do with visible ghosting and latency than the panel itself, and that's not something anyone bothers to put on the box, which is why a lot of people don't really bother paying much attention to response times anymore; by and large modern panels are all "fast enough" and the critical issues are going to be things like the processing chip, overdrive strategy, etc. Listed response times over 10ms is just a general thing suggesting that performance was probably not a big design consideration (or in the case of large monitors, a necessary trade-off).

ToastyX posted:

Basically, if you care about response times, TN with overdrive and IPS with overdrive are the fastest. They are about the same on average with TN being slightly better with gray-to-gray transitions and IPS being slightly better with other transitions.
This is sorta kinda true, and feeds back into my point above: the processing chip can and does make all the difference at times. Many more IPS panels are packaged with a slowish chip for a variety of reasons (better/more processing, the monitor is aimed at office/graphic use so they pick a slower/cheaper chip, etc), where as more TN panels opt for a faster chip (or no chip at all). And, of course, then we've got the new 120Hz TN panels which are faster than pretty much anything else. I will agree with you, however, that most moderate (24" and under) sided IPS panels today will give real-world performance that is not noticeably worse than a good TN panel.

In the end, though, if you really care about ghosting/latency/etc, you owe it to yourself to look up some reviews and see how that particular monitor actually performs, because the numbers never tell the full story.

smug forum asshole
Jan 15, 2005


Pulled the trigger on a U2311H refurb

Dr. Gaius Baltar
Mar 12, 2008

I've been framed!

Refurbished Dell monitors come with a 90-day limited warranty. That sounds pretty terrible!

movax
Aug 30, 2008



Fishmasher posted:

My Samsung BX2440 has presets for Warm, Cool, and Normal. I wish they'd use the actual number like 6500k, or at least explain it in the manual. Does anyone know what the presets really are?

Cool is usually 9300K (everything blues up), Warm I think drops to 6500K, Normal is in the middle. Pretty sure about that.

Also, had no idea the 2209WAs were that special. Got 2 for $220 ea. a few years ago, have to RMA one soon though.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

movax posted:

Also, had no idea the 2209WAs were that special. Got 2 for $220 ea. a few years ago, have to RMA one soon though.
The 2209WA was, much like the U2311H is now, the "golden monitor" of it's time, and pretty much everyone is disappointed that it got discontinued.

Number_6
Jul 23, 2006

BAN ALL GAS GUZZLERS

(except for mine)


DrDork posted:

Also, why do you play with vsync on? If you can't also set triple buffering, you're almost always better off with vsync off.

The image tearing with vsync off is like acid to my eyes, especially with flight sims, but to some extent on all games.

As to refresh rate, my cheap 19" Acer AL1916 (5:4 ratio) supports 75 hz, or at least Windows thinks it does, and older games show 75 FPS framerate via FRAPS etc. Black level sucks on this thing though, and it has some motion blur and (I suspect) worse than average input lag.

smug forum asshole
Jan 15, 2005


Dr. Gaius Baltar posted:

Refurbished Dell monitors come with a 90-day limited warranty. That sounds pretty terrible!

Yeah, jesus, this is why a few pages back I asked if anyone had a definitive answer on the warranty policy for these, and at least one person said and linked to a page that said it was a full three-year warranty. I'm back to being unsure of how long tthe warranty is, and now unsure if this purchase was a good idea.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Number_6 posted:

As to refresh rate, my cheap 19" Acer AL1916 (5:4 ratio) supports 75 hz, or at least Windows thinks it does, and older games show 75 FPS framerate via FRAPS etc. Black level sucks on this thing though, and it has some motion blur and (I suspect) worse than average input lag.
Yeah, 75Hz monitors do exist, they're just an odd bird and have largely fallen out of favor (not that they ever really were in favor), but they're not cheap, especially not with the other requirements you listed. Honestly, you may be better off getting a more main-stream monitor and picking up a better video card so you don't have to worry about falling below 60FPS. Even sub-$200 cards these days can easily push 1680x1050 without a problem.

DrDork fucked around with this message at Dec 19, 2010 around 08:08

freeforumuser
Aug 11, 2007


What's the verdict on the Dell U2211H? I'm kinda interested in replacing my trusty LG L227WTG 22" gaming monitor.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

freeforumuser posted:

What's the verdict on the Dell U2211H? I'm kinda interested in replacing my trusty LG L227WTG 22" gaming monitor.
It's an excellent all-around monitor. Pretty much take all the gushing over the U2311H and tack on "except it's 1.5" smaller and $50-$75 cheaper." Very good color/accuracy, very little latency/lag/ghosting, a reasonable set of inputs, and an excellent warranty. About the only thing to complain about is that at $240 it's only a "decent" price and not an outstanding one. Still, not much more you could ask for in a monitor of that class, unless you have something very specific in mind. However, unless you're really stuck on the price or need the smaller size for some other reason (like it won't physically fit), I'd personally recommend just waiting for the U2311H to go on sale again, spending the little extra, and enjoying the larger monitor.

DrDork fucked around with this message at Dec 19, 2010 around 11:00

smug forum asshole
Jan 15, 2005


smug forum rear end in a top hat posted:

Yeah, jesus, this is why a few pages back I asked if anyone had a definitive answer on the warranty policy for these, and at least one person said and linked to a page that said it was a full three-year warranty. I'm back to being unsure of how long tthe warranty is, and now unsure if this purchase was a good idea.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...3#post385555774

GargleBlaster
Mar 17, 2008

Stupid Narutard

Number_6 posted:

The image tearing with vsync off is like acid to my eyes, especially with flight sims, but to some extent on all games.

For this reason I don't see why anyone would run with vsync *off*. The tearing is awful in many games. As the refresh rate is 60Hz anyway there's no benefit of having a higher framerate other than e-peen measuring ("I get 132 FPS ") or am I missing something?

freeforumuser
Aug 11, 2007


LakesGuzzler posted:

For this reason I don't see why anyone would run with vsync *off*. The tearing is awful in many games. As the refresh rate is 60Hz anyway there's no benefit of having a higher framerate other than e-peen measuring ("I get 132 FPS ") or am I missing something?

I can feel a tiny bit of input lag with Vsync / triple buffering on but would rather live with that than the pain inducing screen tearing.

I don't think the average user don't even know what vsync is; these are the same people that complain about CRT flickering when they can just simply increase the refresh rate by a few mouse clicks. And when LCDs hit, they run them at resolutions other than native and tell me it looks good. /facepalm.

smug forum asshole
Jan 15, 2005


FYI for prospective refurbished monitor buyers: the warranties may be provided on a per-monitor basis. I called and they told me that the warranty wasn't 90 days like the guy in this thread posted, or the full 3 year warranty which was mentioned in the last thread, but instead I would have a one year warranty. If you're thinking about buying a refurb, you might want to check on the phone with them just to make sure you're getting what you expected.

After he said 1 year, I asked if they could cancel my order and I got transferred to another department that was closed

Antignition
Oct 13, 2010

The city looks almost bearable from up here.

smug forum rear end in a top hat posted:

http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...3#post385555774

Yup, sorry fellas. Guess I read it wrong.


EDIT: The warranty said Same-as-New. Apparently it was referring to the monitor not the warranty.

Antignition fucked around with this message at Dec 19, 2010 around 20:21

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

LakesGuzzler posted:

For this reason I don't see why anyone would run with vsync *off*. The tearing is awful in many games. As the refresh rate is 60Hz anyway there's no benefit of having a higher framerate other than e-peen measuring ("I get 132 FPS ") or am I missing something?
The issue with vsync on has to do with a bunch of technical mumbo-jumbo, but the crux of it is that it limits you to only being able to run frame-rates that are equal to (refresh-rate/N) where N is some whole integer. So for your normal 60Hz monitor, this means you're limited to 60, 30, 20, 15, 12, 10, etc. The problem is that drop between 60 and 30--most people find 60FPS to be smooth, but 30FPS to be kinda iffy for anything with a lot of movement. If your card can push more than 60FPS at all times, that's great and none of this will ever be an issue for you. But the moment your card can only push 59FPS, vsync forces it to drop to 30FPS. That's why a lot of people don't really like it, preferring occasional tearing in exchange for frame-rate that doesn't halve itself at times. Obviously this is less of a concern when you've got the hardware to be comfortably above 60FPS at all times, and triple buffering helps a lot by removing most of the potential FPS penalty of vsync, but it's not always available, sadly. The downside of triple buffering is a small increase in input lag, which may or may not be important (or even noticeable) depending on how it's implemented and what game you're playing.

DrDork fucked around with this message at Dec 19, 2010 around 21:11

Steakandchips
Apr 30, 2009



I'll be receiving my long awaited U2311H in January, and in preparation for that, I'd like to be able to hook up both my PC as well as my cable TV connection to it from day one.

My PC (which has a GTX 285 that has 2 DVI outs, one of which is currently connected my Dell Ultrasharp 2407) will be connecting to the cable TV box via DVI (unless you guys advise otherwise!), however, my cable tv box from virgin media UK comes with HDMI out (as well as SCART, but that's low res I believe, so gently caress that).

Devices and their respective inputs/outputs:

Cable TV box ports:

Click here to view the full image

Cable TV HDMI output cable:

Click here to view the full image

Dell U2311H inputs:

Click here to view the full image

Computer speakers 3.5mm input:

Click here to view the full image

As the Dell U2311H doesn't have HDMI in, I was hoping I could get some guidance in terms of how I should connect it. Would an HDMI -> DP work? If so, could someone point me to an appropriate solution? Would this be appropriate:

DISPLAY PORT M - HDMI F ADAPTOR:
http://www.aria.co.uk/Products/Cabl...productId=36182


Also, to connect the audio of the cable TV box, does anyone have any solutions apart from using the optical audio out? Is there a device which would split the HDMI output into both DP as well as an analog audio format? Otherwise, I think a solution like this, though not very elegant, would be appropriate:

6ft Optical Toslink 5.0mm OD Audio Cable:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...at=1#largeimage

Digital Coax & Optical Toslink to Analog Audio Converter:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...&seq=1&format=2

Click here to view the full image

Click here to view the full image

2 RCA Plug/2 RCA Plug M/M Cable - 6ft:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...at=1#largeimage

RCA to 3.5mm:
I already have this...

Click here to view the full image

That last would connect to my 3.5mm male speakers.

Sorry for the , just want to make sure this poo poo is right...

GargleBlaster
Mar 17, 2008

Stupid Narutard

DrDork posted:



Interesting. Thanks for the info.

I find (unsure of the truth to it) that tearing is at its worst at really high framerates (100+), so perhaps it's just a matter of using the option intelligently rather than blindly turning it on or off.

smug forum asshole
Jan 15, 2005


Antignition posted:

Yup, sorry fellas. Guess I read it wrong.


EDIT: The warranty said Same-as-New. Apparently it was referring to the monitor not the warranty.

So I called and I was able to cancel my order. It was actually pretty cool: they offered me an additional $25 off if I would re-consider canceling. It would have been an even better deal then, but I think having the safety of a 3 yr warranty is better.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Steakandchips posted:

I'll be receiving my long awaited U2311H in January, and in preparation for that, I'd like to be able to hook up both my PC as well as my cable TV connection to it from day one.
Unfortunately for you, there is no cheap way to go from HDMI/DVI -> DP, which complicates your setup substantially. The adapter you linked (and all others that aren't like $75+) only goes DP -> HDMI/DVI. That is, you have to have DP-out port on your video-card for it to be any use to you. As such, the DP-in port on the U2311H is basically useless to you, leaving you with but a single DVI port. But all is not lost! You can get HDMI switches pretty cheap that'll let you swap your sources. I'll see if I can find a more elegant solution to your audio problem later tonight.

Steakandchips
Apr 30, 2009



DrDork posted:

Unfortunately for you, there is no cheap way to go from HDMI/DVI -> DP, which complicates your setup substantially. The adapter you linked (and all others that aren't like $75+) only goes DP -> HDMI/DVI. That is, you have to have DP-out port on your video-card for it to be any use to you. As such, the DP-in port on the U2311H is basically useless to you, leaving you with but a single DVI port. But all is not lost! You can get HDMI switches pretty cheap that'll let you swap your sources. I'll see if I can find a more elegant solution to your audio problem later tonight.
Thanks! I think I found a similar HDMI switch that seems appropriate on Aria: http://www.aria.co.uk/Products/Cabl...d=36180&rqcRate[rating]=1&rqcRate[itemId]=213360&rqcType=r&page=1#rqc

Care to give it a gander and see if it'll do?

I assume I'll also need 2 DVI -> HDMI cables as well, to allow me to plug the PC to HDMI switch, and the the switch to the U2311H, so would something like this be ok?:

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/5m-s...ale-(cdldv-305)

Steakandchips fucked around with this message at Dec 20, 2010 around 02:04

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Yup, that'll all work just fine (though I wouldn't suggest a 5m cable unless you actually need it--that's a lot of cable!).

Looking at the audio issue, though, while there are more elegant solutions, they're all far too expensive to consider (several hundred dollars, usually). So as much as I usually don't like franken-setups, going optical -> RCA -> 3.5mm like you initially suggested is probably your most economical option.

Steakandchips
Apr 30, 2009



Thank you DrDork! I'll get started on my purchases shortly, so that they are ready and waiting once the monitor arrives in Jan! WOOT!

kimcicle
Feb 23, 2003



So I got a U2410 to be my second monitor in my setup, and I have it connected via DisplayPort. I've noticed that when I turn off just the monitor (leave my computer up and running) that my computer will change everything to just one of my monitors and makes the Windows noise like a USB device has been disconnected. Is this expected behavior?

movax
Aug 30, 2008



kimcicle posted:

So I got a U2410 to be my second monitor in my setup, and I have it connected via DisplayPort. I've noticed that when I turn off just the monitor (leave my computer up and running) that my computer will change everything to just one of my monitors and makes the Windows noise like a USB device has been disconnected. Is this expected behavior?

Yes - assuming you have the USB hub plugged in. Turning off the monitor also kills power to the integrated USB hub, disconnecting it and all devices connected to it. Letting the display go into standby leaves USB hub and all connected peripherals on.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

kimcicle posted:

So I got a U2410 to be my second monitor in my setup, and I have it connected via DisplayPort. I've noticed that when I turn off just the monitor (leave my computer up and running) that my computer will change everything to just one of my monitors and makes the Windows noise like a USB device has been disconnected. Is this expected behavior?
Yeah, Windows tries its very best to never have stuff displayed on a monitor that's disconnected or turned off, so whenever it can't communicate with a monitor, Windows will collapse everything down to the remaining monitor(s). As with what movax noted about the USB hub, letting it fall into standby instead of manually turning it off will prevent this problem.

Chuu
Sep 11, 2004



U3011 Refurb on sale for $899 /w free shipping at Dell Outlet.

90 day warranty only. If you call and bargain you can get two years for somewhere between $50 and $150 depending on the whim of your CSR's Manager.

smug forum asshole
Jan 15, 2005


So I was able to return the refurb U2311H and I bought a brand new one when the price dropped to 279. It came today and it was totally worth it, and I'm glad I didn't get the U2410, because it would have been too huge, because this thing is just enormous.



I was somewhat concerned that the aspect ratio would be weird or uncomfortable to me, coming from a 16:10 dell 2005fpw. This is not the case. It's great. Time to calibrate I guess

Rueish
Feb 27, 2009

Gone

but not forgotten.


I really want to get a new monitor to go along with my current one, I don't want to spend more than $160 and won't go any less than 20". Reading this thread enlightened me a bit but I'm still slightly clueless.

These seem to be a pretty good one for the price, at least to me: here or this one

smug forum asshole
Jan 15, 2005


Rueish posted:

I really want to get a new monitor to go along with my current one, I don't want to spend more than $160 and won't go any less than 20". Reading this thread enlightened me a bit but I'm still slightly clueless.

These seem to be a pretty good one for the price, at least to me: here or this one

What will you be using your monitor for primarily? What is the largest you are willing to go?

Rueish
Feb 27, 2009

Gone

but not forgotten.


smug forum rear end in a top hat posted:

What will you be using your monitor for primarily? What is the largest you are willing to go?

Well, I would game on it but none of the games I play on PC are fast-paced FPS type of games. It'd basically be for movies/games. As for largest? I'm not too sure, with the budget I'm going with it seems that it tops out at 22"-23" but I guess larger than that wouldn't be bad.

Junkenstein
Oct 22, 2003

Do you see?

What's the difference between the Samsung BX2231 and BX2250, and how are they generally?

Pr0phecy
Apr 3, 2006


What would you say about this monitor? They give it great reviews but you seem to be extremely knowledgeable about this.

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Produc...N82E16824236052

I'd use it mostly for gaming/movies, maybe hooking up my PS3 to it.

Factory Factory
Mar 19, 2010

Oh dear, oh my,
that shouldn't be said.


Pr0phecy posted:

What would you say about this monitor? They give it great reviews but you seem to be extremely knowledgeable about this.

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Produc...N82E16824236052

I'd use it mostly for gaming/movies, maybe hooking up my PS3 to it.

I was about to buy that monitor until I decided to go for a Dell U2410 for better color accuracy. It has my official "Except for the fact that I do content creation, I'd own it" seal of approval.

Junkenstein posted:

What's the difference between the Samsung BX2231 and BX2250, and how are they generally?

BX2331 is a 23" monitor, BX2250 is 21.5". 2331 is glossy black finish, 2250 is charcoal grey. 2331 uses more electricity. I haven't seen them personally.

movax
Aug 30, 2008



Pr0phecy posted:

What would you say about this monitor? They give it great reviews but you seem to be extremely knowledgeable about this.

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Produc...N82E16824236052

I'd use it mostly for gaming/movies, maybe hooking up my PS3 to it.

I think it'll be just fine for your described usage scenario. It's TN, and will excel at gaming. I wouldn't expect much input lag from that Asus either.

Pr0phecy
Apr 3, 2006


Great! I wanted to take your suggestions for the 24" Dell U2410 but $500 is WAY out of the price range.

Thanks guys and great thread!

Steakandchips
Apr 30, 2009



The U2311H should be just as good, but without the plethora of inputs.

I'll post a trip report when I get it in Jan.

OneZeroSix
Apr 5, 2009

Rodgers Shoryukening the Steelers FTW


Ok I know the OP said that DVI and HDMI are basically the same, but are there any advantages with HDMI over DVI? My monitor has a HDMI port, and my graphics card has two DVI ports. I was wondering if I got a DVI-HDMI cable and hooked that up would it make a noticeable difference over my current DVI-DVI cable? I watch HD movies on this monitor so being able to enhance the quality of video even a little bit would be nice.

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BabyRyoga
May 21, 2001
Messenger of Trance

Cmon, U2311H! go on sale again.

Do it, so I can buy you.

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