|
Presumably if the second job gave you a better offer, you would accept it.
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 20:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 08:28 |
|
|
astr0man posted:I think its ok to receive an offer but keep interviewing elsewhere before you accept it, but it is kind of lovely to accept/sign the offer and then continue interviewing. Even if you accept/sign it, either party can still back out before you start. As long as that's the case, I see nothing wrong with continuing to interview (and potentially getting a better offer) to your heart's content. Now it'd be kind of inappropriate to start a new job while still interviewing with the hope of getting something better, but that's its own can of worms that I'm sure people will complain about.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 00:27
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:Is it rude to interview for a job when you already have one? Why? It's rude if you have no intention of taking the job, which is the question that was asked. I don't see a problem accepting an offer and still interviewing if you think the position you're interviewing for is potentially better, but in this specific situation I don't think I'd advise burning abridge withGoogle without justification. asur fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Nov 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 03:32
|
|
asur posted:It's rude if you have no intention of taking the job, which is the question that was asked. No actually it wasn't. The question that was asked was "should I continue interviewing after I've accepted an offer" and the answer is yes. For a lot of reasons, least of which is that once you have two offers negotiation for a higher salary becomes a real thing. Read. Comprehend. Post.
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 03:39
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:No actually it wasn't. The question that was asked was "should I continue interviewing after I've accepted an offer" and the answer is yes. For a lot of reasons, least of which is that once you have two offers negotiation for a higher salary becomes a real thing. Maybe you should go back and read the post. It's pretty clear the he wants to interview for more practice, not because he intends to potentially accept a different offer. Maybe someone else has different experience, but I'd expect you to get laughed at if you accepted an internship and then came back later and tried to negotiate.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 04:36
|
|
asur posted:Maybe you should go back and read the post. It's pretty clear the he wants to interview for more practice, not because he intends to potentially accept a different offer. No it's not. Don't do the whole "pretty clear" thing after you claimed he actually said something he didn't. quote:Maybe someone else has different experience, but I'd expect you to get laughed at if you accepted an internship and then came back later and tried to negotiate. Yeah I mean, if you think attempting to negotiate employment offers is laughable I don't know what to tell you, enjoy getting poo poo on.
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 04:47
|
|
|
This thread went downhill fast after the dude who posts a lot of IRL info found his 2nd VB.net janitorial position.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2014 04:00
|
|
|
Wow, that's a lot more discussion about interviewing ethics than I thought there'd be, thanks. I ended up informing the other companies that I had accepted another offer and as such would no longer be seeking a summer position, but I appreciated their interest and would be open to pursuing a spring internship if they were so inclined. It's a nice mix of honest and self-serving, so hey. @sailboat: I only have trivial criticisms, sorry: Single line spacing in the experience section contrasts badly with the >1 line spacing in the skills section; I think consistent spacing would be better. I feel like your sentences should be terminated with full stops. If you have non-proprietary code you can share, a github link in with your other contact information probably couldn't hurt. In other news, did something happen with #cobol or am I just poo poo at irc?
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2014 10:58
|
|
|
Steely Glint posted:In other news, did something happen with #cobol or am I just poo poo at irc? Maybe you need to register with NickServ (or identify, specifically)? Check the server window.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 00:41
|
|
|
Should I renege on an offer from Microsoft for Google? I know it's very unprofessional but I'm at the point where this is my first job after college and I'm unsure if ruining my reputation to work at Google would be the proper decision. Microsoft is more money because of the location and potentially less work, but I think Google would be better for my career. I also enjoy the direction Microsoft is going with the new CEO but I've heard it's a bunch of politics and meetings more than programming... sailormoon fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Dec 1, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 19:22
|
|
sailormoon posted:Should I renege on an offer from Microsoft for Google? It's not, it's actually incredibly professional to turn down an offer to take a better one. Microsoft will lay you off without thinking twice if it makes sense for them, you owe them nothing.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 19:41
|
|
|
If you take the Microsoft job, you will be branded with a scarlet "M" visible only to people making hiring decisions, be unable to cross running water except on floating bridges, and may not be buried in hallowed ground.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 19:45
|
|
|
sailormoon posted:Should I renege on an offer from Microsoft for Google? Reneging on the MS offer will not ruin your reputation and is not unprofessional. Nobody except MS HR and the teams you interviewed with will ever know about it, and I'd be surprised if it had any effect on your career, including your ability to get another job offer from Microsoft. The only thing that might give you pause here is if you were referred by a friend, since they'll look a little bad. Not very bad, though, and they can always be like "sailormoon is kind of a flake {{shrug}}". What exactly do you think makes Google better for your career? I don't work in that world, but the C# ecosystem seems excellent. You're somewhat locked in for your first few years, in that you have to work pretty hard to convince people that you're competent and changing technologies too fast will leave you not being good at anything. But if you had 4 years of C#, solid resume, and a good story about playing with Ruby, I don't see why you couldn't get hired at a Rails shop. And congratulations on having two excellent offers. Feel free to leverage them against each other; the worst that will happen is that HR says "we're not going to offer you any more money."
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 19:52
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:It's not, it's actually incredibly professional to turn down an offer to take a better one. Microsoft will lay you off without thinking twice if it makes sense for them, you owe them nothing. It's actually very unprofessional. The university I graduated from got in hot water with a bunch of the big tech companies because dumb CS kids reneged on offers after they had accepted them.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 20:04
|
|
Chill Callahan posted:It's actually very unprofessional. The university I graduated from got in hot water with a bunch of the big tech companies because dumb CS kids reneged on offers after they had accepted them. It's actually not. I'm sorry that your Uni made some deal with tech companies and then was surprised when people went for better jobs. If they wanted to hire him, they'd offer him more money when he tells them he got a better offer. You owe literally nothing to any big tech company. If your Uni does, that's their fault. Look out for #1 because nobody else will be.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 20:07
|
|
|
Chill Callahan posted:It's actually very unprofessional. The university I graduated from got in hot water with a bunch of the big tech companies because dumb CS kids reneged on offers after they had accepted them.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 20:08
|
|
|
The university did nothing wrong, it was just those tech companies were more hesitant to recruit graduates and I think the CS department lost some money from those companies (recruiting fees, etc.). There is a general understanding that it's fine to turn down an offer if you haven't accepted it yet, but it just strikes me as extremely childish to turn down an offer after you've accepted it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 20:13
|
|
Chill Callahan posted:The university did nothing wrong, it was just those tech companies were more hesitant to recruit graduates and I think the CS department lost some money from those companies (recruiting fees, etc.). There is a general understanding that it's fine to turn down an offer if you haven't accepted it yet, but it just strikes me as extremely childish to turn down an offer after you've accepted it. It's actually very adult to negotiate multiple offers at once and to be upfront and honest with your employer. Do you understand that Microsoft would lay him off in a second without a thought if it made sense for them? Repeat after me: you have no moral obligation towards large corporate entities who's only goal is to use your skills to make money. Thinking that you do is a good way to get the rug pulled out from under you. If Microsoft wants him that bad, they will counter-offer, simple as that. If they don't, you know you made the right decision. If they do, you can take that back to Google and they will counter-offer. This is purely a good thing for the employee, the companies understand the marketplace and won't hold it against you. You do nobody favors by taking your second choice. down with slavery fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Dec 1, 2014 |
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 20:15
|
|
|
It's fine to juggle multiple offers and play them off each other before you accept one, but after you accept one, it's not very adult nor professional to renege on one.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 20:18
|
|
Chill Callahan posted:It's fine to juggle multiple offers and play them off each other before you accept one, but after you accept one, it's not very adult nor professional to renege on one. Nope, wrong. Do you think it's unethical to interview at companies while you still have a job? This is basically the same thing. He has a job, now with the other offer in hand he can either negotiate a raise (good thing) or get a better job (good thing). What about that is unprofessional? It's not like he signed a contract that states he'll work for X months/years. Who exactly is losing in this situation?
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 20:21
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:Do you understand that Microsoft would lay him off in a second without a thought if it made sense for them? Repeat after me: you have no moral obligation towards large corporate entities who's only goal is to use your skills to make money. Thinking that you do is a good way to get the rug pulled out from under you. This is the gooniest poo poo and nobody cares. You shouldn't feel bad renegotiating an offer, but that's because employment should be mutually beneficial, not because you should treat every interaction like you're in a prisoner's dilemma.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 20:39
|
|
|
Look at it this way: if you currently had a job at Microsoft, were unhappy with it, and applied to and were accepted at Google would it be bad to leave MS to go to Google? All reneging on an offer is is moving this timeline back. If you're going to regret declining Google's offer, well, I don't think MS wants an employee that's not going to be happy there because they really want to be somewhere else. It's mutually beneficial for both parties to go their separate ways if one or the other has concerns about the arrangement. It sounds like you prefer Google, it doesn't really matter what the reasons are. It would be better for you and your company to be working at the place where you're not constantly internally saying "I knew I should have taken the other offer!" every time something mildly annoying happens. I mean, if you do this frequently, you may end up with a reputation, but if you're changing jobs frequently you have other problems too.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 21:20
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:It's actually very adult to negotiate multiple offers at once and to be upfront and honest with your employer. If you're still entertaining other offers instead of saying "no I accepted an offer at X" after you've accepted an offer at X, then you're not being honest. Or upfront.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 21:30
|
|
|
sailormoon posted:Should I renege on an offer from Microsoft for Google? Everyone's focusing on the most pertinent aspect (have you Accepted the first offer or not?) but I'd like to point out that your decision about which company to work for should not hinge on the CEO. You'll be 6~12 managers away from that person, and the hiring manager/team leader that's directly above you will have so much more sway over your day to day work, happiness, etc. that it's just not sensible to factor in the current CEO or their 5~10 year plan for their tens of thousands of employees. Did you interview with either hiring manager or people on the team you'd be working for? Were they people close to your age that you could socialize with easily or older people with families who won't give a poo poo if the new RCG goes home alone every night? I know people that started at the same time I did at the same company who had vastly different experiences along those lines. Same CEO and everything.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 21:36
|
|
sarehu posted:If you're still entertaining other offers instead of saying "no I accepted an offer at X" after you've accepted an offer at X, then you're not being honest. Or upfront. How so? Just because you have a job doesn't mean you don't want a better one.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 21:40
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:How so? Just because you have a job doesn't mean you don't want a better one. The honest thing to do is to not accept the offer, and wait, because you're doing other interviewing and entertaining other offers.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 21:42
|
|
sarehu posted:The honest thing to do is to not accept the offer, and wait, because you're doing other interviewing and entertaining other offers. Why? Since when is it unethical to interview or seek other jobs when you already have one? I would call that "smart", and hell, I'm on the other side of the table. I tell my employees the same thing I tell my clients, feel free to shop around, our offer will stand up to market. And if it doesn't, we're more than willing to negotiate.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 21:43
|
|
|
Chill Callahan posted:It's fine to juggle multiple offers and play them off each other before you accept one, but after you accept one, it's not very adult nor professional to renege on one. I can agree that it's a bit of a junior move to have to renege on an offer. It means that you accepted too quickly, probably because you weren't confident in your ability to say "thanks for the offer. I'm waiting on another offer, so I'll get back to you in a week." It also probably points to not asking the right questions when you had the chance: you get all excited about one company and take their offer, but then you're like "oh poo poo, I should have asked about how they mentor new devs and this new place clearly does it right." But sometimes we make mistakes, and it's important (and adult and professional!) to admit your mistake and fix it. If you write some super-dumb code and need a week to fix it, the correct thing to do is say "I need a week to fix this super-dumb code". Likewise, if you accepted a job offer that was not your best offer, the correct thing to say is, "I'm so sorry but I actually have a much better offer." If you want to give something to the person you're writing to, you can provide details (where, how much, why) on the offer you're flipping for so they can try to have this not happen with the next person they make an offer to.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 21:46
|
|
|
I've heard rumors of a lot of policies like "don't hire anyone who backed out on an unsigned offer" or "you can only work at this company X times" but they all suppose this hyper-efficient HR department with an amazing database I can't quite fathom being built for a typical enterprise. How many bits of information is a company really keeping on every person they didn't hire?sarehu posted:The honest thing to do is to not accept the offer, and wait, because you're doing other interviewing and entertaining other offers.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 21:50
|
|
|
I know that there are at least a few big tech companies who keep blacklists. I'm not sure if reneging on an offer will land you on it. I doubt it? Maybe if you really screwed someone by reneging the day prior? Either way, I have a hard time understanding why people disagree that it's at the very least morally grey to renege on an offer. At the same time you gotta do what's best for you. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Also, sailormoon doesn't want to renege on the offer because it's worse, he wants to renege because he thinks MS won't be as good on his resume as Google. I think that depends on the team you work for. There are good and bad teams in both companies. I hope you used your interview to also interview the teams so you have a better comparison than your gut instinct of general population sentiment.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 21:57
|
|
|
sarehu posted:If you're still entertaining other offers instead of saying "no I accepted an offer at X" after you've accepted an offer at X, then you're not being honest. Or upfront. How many days/weeks/months after being at a company does it become honest to entertain other offers?. Where is this line in your sand that says on this side it is honest on this side it is dishonest? Isn't it more honest to leave before they spend time and money increasing your productivity in their environment? Bonus question do you know of anyone who has been laid off while on the dishonest side of that line?
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 22:00
|
|
|
Hughlander posted:How many days/weeks/months after being at a company does it become honest to entertain other offers?. Where is this line in your sand that says on this side it is honest on this side it is dishonest? Isn't it more honest to leave before they spend time and money increasing your productivity in their environment? Bonus question do you know of anyone who has been laid off while on the dishonest side of that line? Thanks for presenting a ridiculous zero-sum argument. Really improved the discussion. But interviewing while you're working at a company usually involves that company being on your resume, very likely with an implied ongoing relationship indicated by the end date being "2014-" or the present month. It's neither honest nor dishonest to leave before they spend money increasing your productivity. It's arguably ethical to leave before they invest time and money in you, under the condition that you've actually told them you're pursuing other offers. This whole "gently caress businesses because they'll gently caress you" attitude is incredible. If you walked into a job and they said "sorry, we kept interviewing after we made you an offer and found a candidate who'd do it for less, so we don't need you", you'd be clamoring for employment lawyers. But it's totally fine to turn the tables, because it's a faceless corporation. Just be up-front 
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 22:11
|
|
evol262 posted:This whole "gently caress businesses because they'll gently caress you" attitude is incredible. If you walked into a job and they said "sorry, we kept interviewing after we made you an offer and found a candidate who'd do it for less, so we don't need you", you'd be clamoring for employment lawyers. But it's totally fine to turn the tables, because it's a faceless corporation. Uhh no you wouldn't because you'd have no recourse and companies do that literally all the time. You're incredibly naive if you think otherwise. Especially about a company like Microsoft.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 22:19
|
|
|
Hughlander posted:How many days/weeks/months after being at a company does it become honest to entertain other offers? A day? A week? If you start working and you realize you hate the place, by all means leave now instead of making them suffer under the cost of bringing a newbie up to speed. If you accept an offer out of job X and then a few days later out of the blue some acquaintance calls you up and is like "come work for us" at some other job, that's OK too, morally speaking. Or if you suddenly realize you don't want to work there because of <reason>. What's not OK is agreeing with somebody you will work for them for money, while planning otherwise, keeping interview processes open at other companies. That's where there's dishonesty.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 22:21
|
|
|
evol262 posted:
Maybe it's because in my twenty years of professional experience I've seen the following: Company call an employee the night before he started to say they were rescinding his offer. After he moved his family from one coat to the other. Company layoff someone the day a new employee was to start because the employee was his replacement. Company move a BF/GF couple from Germany to the US a week later they layoff the GF. (that one was great since they both even worked at the company before they were together) Multiple normal cases of being hired and laid off before a month was out Hiring fifteen plus just to announce the office is closing and some would be laid off while others offered roles in other offices a state away. All of these and more are things I've personally seen not some urban legend. All in rights to work states that to my knowledge resulted in zero lawsuits. It's not turning the tables. It's business.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 22:25
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:Uhh no you wouldn't because you'd have no recourse and companies do that literally all the time. You're incredibly naive if you think otherwise. Especially about a company like Microsoft. That depends on the state and whether the offer is contractual or not. Go crawl back into whatever E/N+vidya hole you crawled out of where you think Microsoft is rescinding offers because they kept interviewing candidates after hiring. Hughlander posted:Maybe it's because in my twenty years of professional experience I've seen the following: Sorry that you think some anecdotes justify a "gently caress you, I got mine" attitude towards the world. Right to work is anti-union bullshit that has basically nothing to do with at-will employment. At-will employment does allow for all the things you mentioned. But becoming a jaded anti-capitalist keyboard warrior doesn't really do anything here. Part of the interviewing game is also figuring out whether it's a company you want to work for, and trying to find red flags of poo poo like this. Microsoft and Google do not have those problems. evol262 fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Dec 1, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 22:30
|
|
|
To anyone doing interviews, if you implement something and the person you're interviewing with says "ok, so how can we improve the runtime?" the correct response is not saying "This is the best I can do" then refusing to work on it anymore unless you really want to confuse your interviewer.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 22:30
|
|
evol262 posted:That depends on the state and whether the offer is contractual or not. I actually run a successful marketing firm and interview/hire developers on the regular but feel free to completely ignore my advice, it's only your career. Microsoft regularly cuts more expensive employees to hire cheaper ones, it's not even really up for debate. And yes, people get laid off right after being hired many times. I'm glad you've never experienced it, but I assure you it's real thing that I've seen with my own eyes.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 22:31
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:I actually run a successful marketing firm and interview/hire developers on the regular but feel free to completely ignore my advice, it's only your career. There was never a chance of me accepting your "advice" in the first place. Good job puffing yourself up, but your post history is what I'm judging. Companies regularly cut overpaid, underperforming employees to get new blood (which happens to be cheaper). That's not up for debate. What is up for debate is your assertion that Microsoft cold-shoulders candidates they've already given an offer letter to because they hired someone else instead, which is actually the situation presented, not layoffs right after hiring (which can happen for any number of reasons).
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 22:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 08:28 |
|
|
down with slavery posted:Microsoft regularly cuts more expensive employees to hire cheaper ones, it's not even really up for debate. Are we supposed to be angry about this?
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 22:38
|
|