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Forgall posted:The problem with highlighted is that my experience during my employment was with either outdated technologies (old versions of asp.net webforms, windows forms), or niche ones I don't really want to work with anymore (Unity3D). I don't think can get hired on the strength of those, so I've been reading up on newer frameworks, and I was going to make some small hobby projects to demonstrate my ability to use them (and now I don't even know if I have time for that anymore, because my country is melting down in a horrifying way). But then what, do I just put hobby projects as my entire experience, because it's the only one that's relevant? No one's going to care what version you did unless they specify in big bold letters MVC 5 or something, and the changes from version to version aren't always huge. The point is to show your experience in languages X, Y, and Z using frameworks A, B, and C, and when they ask about it in an interview, then you can talk about how Unity3D ruined your life or whatever. I can't imagine a place not hiring an otherwise desirable candidate because they knew, say, MVC 4 instead of MVC 5, or if they do do that, then it's probably not somewhere you want to work.
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Dec 17, 2014 10:25
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Forgall posted:The problem with highlighted is that my experience during my employment was with either outdated technologies (old versions of asp.net webforms, windows forms), or niche ones I don't really want to work with anymore (Unity3D). I don't think can get hired on the strength of those, so I've been reading up on newer frameworks, and I was going to make some small hobby projects to demonstrate my ability to use them (and now I don't even know if I have time for that anymore, because my country is melting down in a horrifying way). But then what, do I just put hobby projects as my entire experience, because it's the only one that's relevant? Detail that poo poo exactly like I said to do it. Bullet points describing specific accomplishments including some of the major technologies/frameworks/languages you used in them. Your hobby projects go into an "Independent Projects" section, where you approach it just like you did your employment section (bullet points, accomplishments, languages/technologies you used to get the poo poo done). What you're basically telling me with what I quoted is that you've been programming for a while, you've used a variety of languages, and you're using your own time to learn new poo poo and improve yourself. Most companies aren't going to disqualify you immediately just because you don't have 5 years of expertise in the very newest languages and frameworks and everything else that they have listed on a job posting. Let those that do make that decision, don't do it for them.
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Dec 17, 2014 10:34
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viewtyjoe posted:No one's going to care what version you did unless they specify in big bold letters MVC 5 or something, and the changes from version to version aren't always huge. Che Delilas posted:Your hobby projects go into an "Independent Projects" section, where you approach it just like you did your employment section (bullet points, accomplishments, languages/technologies you used to get the poo poo done).
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Dec 17, 2014 11:02
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Forgall posted:Unfortunately, webforms is completely different from MVC, not just a different version of the same. Keep in mind it doesn't have to be complete (though that's always nice) projects; in-progress stuff can go here too if you got some feature working using a technology you want to mention.
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Dec 17, 2014 11:09
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Makeout Patrol posted:I would say that qualifying your skills in this way is just giving the person reading it an opportunity to throw out your resume. What is the advantage to you to say "intermediate knowledge of C++" over just "C++"? That's an example you made up though, not the one he asked about. "familiar with" signals to me that he's used the language a few times but it wasn't his main. "basic knowledge of" means he had to touch and modify some source written in it. IMHO this is useful to know which language is the most sensible to whiteboard in. Don't write "intermediate" (what does it mean?) or "expert" (red cape). If the company is looking for an "expert" in X and you've got X as "basic knowledge of" then yes that's giving them the opportunity to throw it out. This isn't necessarily bad. I do fully agree with the sentiment that you should preferably explain your level via the work experience section specifically mentioning the technologies used. That's much more helpful. The qualifiers for knowledge are actually very common to see for spoken/written languages. i.e. "English, Spanish, basic knowledge of German."
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Dec 17, 2014 11:23
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Forgall posted:I think I remember somebody here mentioning Google's questionnaire for programmer self-evaluation, but I can't seem to find the thing. Am I misremembering, or maybe it's called something else? It was something about 1-10 scale of proficiency, with explanation for each rating. I'll echo earlier comments: give examples and link it to stuff you've worked on, rather than assigning numbers. That Google scale does exist, but it's pretty crap, honestly. As a rough example for programming languages, this is how most people interpret it, and the official examples be damned: 10 = I literally created the drat language. "I am fairly great, and the ladies in the town all know my name." 9 = I'm a world-class expert in this language; I could conceivably go give talks at a conference on aspects/features of this language. I may have contributed to a compiler/standard library for this language. 8 = I know this language inside and out, including all of its obscure features and failures that hardly anyone uses in production code. If the language has an ISO spec, I probably own a copy of it. My coworkers go to me for questions about this language. 7 = I'm very good with this language; I can write production-quality code with no oversight and no reference material. 6 = I'm proficient with this language, enough that you'll only facepalm a few times if you have to review my code. 5 = I could probably write some production-quality code with it, but it's going to need a lot of iterations in code review; my reviewer may cry. 4 and below = Don't bother. I consider the scale crap because the level of effort needed to move between 8 and 9 (or even between 7 and 8) is absurdly high, and there's maybe one or two 10s in the entire world. Most of my coworkers are in the 6.5 - 7.5 range, and that's fine. (It's also crap because languages often evolve over time. I'd consider myself an 8.5 for C++03, but only a 7.5 for C++11.)
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Dec 17, 2014 12:41
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ullerrm posted:I'll echo earlier comments: give examples and link it to stuff you've worked on, rather than assigning numbers. Edit: There's some information about my last project on the company's website, except it's missing from the English version. Forgall fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Dec 17, 2014 |
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Dec 17, 2014 13:26
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ullerrm posted:I consider the scale crap because the level of effort needed to move between 8 and 9 (or even between 7 and 8) is absurdly high, and there's maybe one or two 10s in the entire world. Most of my coworkers are in the 6.5 - 7.5 range, and that's fine. It's also crap because how do you separate your proficiency with a particular language from your proficiency with general programming principles and practices (which also evolve over time)? There's just so goddamn much to distill down into a single number, I find it a useless exercise.
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Dec 17, 2014 13:44
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Asking people to self-evaluate on an arbitrary scale of X - Y with no definition of what the values are is kind of stupid. I blame HR/recruiters.
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Dec 17, 2014 15:01
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Also, as that example proves, anything that is ever rated on a scale of 1-10 actually gets rated on a scale of 5-10.
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Dec 17, 2014 15:18
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Tunga posted:Also, as that example proves, anything that is ever rated on a scale of 1-10 actually gets rated on a scale of 5-10. I was just thinking that. but then if a recruiter ever asked 'rate yourself 1-5' i wouldn't feel comfortable saying anything other than 1 or 4 for everything ever. I've had to answer the 1-10 questions quite a few times now and I can never come up with a good answer.
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Dec 17, 2014 17:01
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Evil_Greven posted:Asking people to self-evaluate on an arbitrary scale of X - Y with no definition of what the values are is kind of stupid. Being able to quickly figure out the psychology of nontechnical people using lovely analogies, thus proving you can communicate with such people, is a great skill to have and will serve you well as you advance in your career.
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Dec 17, 2014 17:03
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Space Whale posted:Being able to quickly figure out the psychology of nontechnical people using lovely analogies, thus proving you can communicate with such people, is a great skill to have and will serve you well as you advance in your career. And as soon as you advance past the earliest stages of said career, you can gain enough confidence and expertise that you can pass on bullshit like rating yourself from 1-10 to an HR drone who can't pronounce half the technologies you're rating yourself on.
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Dec 17, 2014 17:54
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Che Delilas posted:confidence and expertise 
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Dec 17, 2014 19:34
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I just got turned down for a role with the reason given that I refused to tell them what salary I wanted. I don't know if the UK market is wildly different to the US but this seems to be pretty common and makes the "never name the first number" advice rather hard to follow. Most recruiters refuse to even talk to me and companies are very pushy in interviews about getting a number out of me.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:40
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Tunga posted:I just got turned down for a role with the reason given that I refused to tell them what salary I wanted. I don't know if the UK market is wildly different to the US but this seems to be pretty common and makes the "never name the first number" advice rather hard to follow. If this is true, I guess just name a high number.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:55
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I need help finding a job for a friend who is about to get deported if she doesn't find one in 6 weeks. The most important things: she lives in the UK, she has a 2:1 MSc in CS from a decent uni and also the equivalent of a first from a 4-year E&EE degree from outside the UK, and she has decent English communication skills. She's also had 3 years of experience working for a radio device manufacturer before starting her masters and is reasonably good with C, Java and JS. The problem is she suffers from mental health issues (mostly depression), which is why she wasn't able to find a job herself. What I am asking is, what's the best way of helping her? My tentative plan is something like this: 1) Help her fix her CV 2) Get her some help with her mental health issues 3) Find a job quickly that would pay more than £20,5K (the minimum for a work visa), which is what I don't know how to do So how do I go about quickly trying to find a job in software development, with a company that would be willing to handle her visa application? Lots of other international students managed to do it somehow. Currently she is unemployed and trying to survive by doing part-time jobs. She doesn't really care about how much money she makes or anything, as long as she can stay. Basically everything would be a step up from now. I suppose there's some websites to use? Monster? The OP isn't much help in this case. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Dec 18, 2014 |
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Dec 17, 2014 21:57
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Tunga posted:I just got turned down for a role with the reason given that I refused to tell them what salary I wanted. I don't know if the UK market is wildly different to the US but this seems to be pretty common and makes the "never name the first number" advice rather hard to follow. I had the same experience. All three recruiters basically dumped me after I said "let's talk about the salary once we know I'm a good fit for the job". Which is kind of a good thing since all three didn't even HAVE a job for me, the sketchy fucks 
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Dec 18, 2014 05:57
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In the UK too, and I've had much the same experience. I apply for a job and then a day or two later I get a call asking about my experience, assuming it's for that job, then there's usually an awkward "Well okay if we have anything for you I'll let you know." at the end. I feel like it's more a case of me not meeting their Buzzword Bingo criteria than them not having a job lined up for me, though.
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Dec 18, 2014 09:24
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Private Speech posted:I need help finding a job for a friend who is about to get deported if she doesn't find one in 6 weeks. The most important things: she lives in the UK, she has a 2:1 MSc in CS from a decent uni and also the equivalent of a first from a 4-year E&EE degree from outside the UK, and she has decent English communication skills. She's also had 3 years of experience working for a radio device manufacturer before starting her masters and is reasonably good with C, Java and JS. Do they need visa sponsorship (I guess so as it sounds like they are not from EU). That might make it tricky. Something similar happened to an Indian friend of mine after the place we worked at went under, he had to find a job within a few weeks or get deported. Luckily he did, but he mentioned he progressed through a couple of interviews in his first batch to final face to face or in one case offer, before the company realised he didn't have a visa and they were unable to sponsor so had to withdraw. He spammed financial software places in London and games companies throughout the UK, mostly via linkedin iirc. I think he mentioned his time pressure and visa sponsorship issue early on after his experience with companies unable to sponsor, which he reckons led to him accepting a lower than deserved salary because they had a strong negotiating position knowing he would be deported if he didn't accept. A few months after accepting he got his poo poo together and moved to SF anyway, more evidence it is ineffective and myopic to cheap out on your staff!
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Dec 18, 2014 17:16
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When building a portfolio site, how much 3rd party stuff is acceptable to use? Like, if I wanted to use Bootstrap or HTML5 Boilerplate, would that be cool, or is that a big no-no?
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Dec 18, 2014 20:46
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Literally Elvis posted:When building a portfolio site, how much 3rd party stuff is acceptable to use? Like, if I wanted to use Bootstrap or HTML5 Boilerplate, would that be cool, or is that a big no-no? Why on earth would that be a bad thing? These tools exist to be used. Would you not use jQuery because it's "3rd party stuff"? New Yorp New Yorp fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Dec 18, 2014 |
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Dec 18, 2014 20:50
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I actually worry about that myself. Personally, I don't think it's a bad thing to use them.
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Dec 18, 2014 21:09
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Literally Elvis posted:When building a portfolio site, how much 3rd party stuff is acceptable to use? Like, if I wanted to use Bootstrap or HTML5 Boilerplate, would that be cool, or is that a big no-no? Yeah, go nuts. Use the stuff you want to use. I don't think any decent potential employer would F12 your site and go "Oh man, you used JQuery/Bootstrap/X Library instead of taking an inordinate amount of time rolling your own solution? We can't have that!".
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Dec 18, 2014 21:27
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Drastic Actions posted:Yeah, go nuts. Use the stuff you want to use. I don't think any decent potential employer would F12 your site and go "Oh man, you used JQuery/Bootstrap/X Library instead of taking an inordinate amount of time rolling your own solution? We can't have that!". "Here at Big Joe's Wheel Emporium, we take pride in reinventing the wheel!"
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Dec 18, 2014 21:30
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Honestly if someone didn't use readily available libraries to improve efficiency I'd wonder why.
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Dec 18, 2014 21:53
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Literally Elvis posted:When building a portfolio site, how much 3rd party stuff is acceptable to use? Like, if I wanted to use Bootstrap or HTML5 Boilerplate, would that be cool, or is that a big no-no? You're basically asking if it's acceptable for a home builder to buy his lumber pre-cut from a lumber yard and his nails pre-shaped from a steel mill. The home builder doesn't cut down the trees or plane the boards, and he doesn't smelt the iron for his nails. This is what development is. If you want to design new encryption algorithms I recommend going back to school for a Master's in computer science at the bare minimum. Otherwise, build what you want to build using the tools and materials available.
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Dec 18, 2014 22:07
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pr0zac posted:Honestly if someone didn't use readily available libraries to improve efficiency I'd wonder why. To prove I can. Badly, but I can. 
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Dec 18, 2014 22:47
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Pollyanna posted:To prove I can. Badly, but I can. A good reason to do it would be to learn. I've always had an easier time learning how something worked by building a simple version of it. But I don't use those things in production environments.
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Dec 18, 2014 22:52
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I am starting my foray into computer science a bit later than some. I graduated in 2009 with a BA in English, but after working in a support role for four years at a software company, I have decided that I want to snag a development role at some point in the near future. I've taken Calculus I and Calculus II and a few introductory programming courses at my local community college, and I was recently accepted into Oregon State University's online post-baccalaureate program, which will grant me a BS in Computer Science. The program itself is going to take two years (I can only study part time, because I need to work in order to be able to afford it), but I do not necessarily want to wait until the end of 2016 to get a development role. At the same time, I am a bit worried about being "ready" for a software development role before I am done with the program. I was hoping that someone in this thread could point me in the right direction. Here's a quick overview of what the program looks like for the first year: Term 1 (January - March): Computer Science I (C++) and Discrete Math Term 2 (April - June): Computer Science II (C++) and Usability Engineering Term 3 (July - September): Data Structures and Computer Architecture/Assembly Language Term 4 (October - December): Databases and Web Development I am a bit confused right now about how I should approach the internship/job search over the next year. Does it make sense for me to go for an internship, or should I be applying for full time roles? (I am not sure, since I already have a previous degree in an obviously unrelated subject.) If I do go the internship, at what point would it make sense for me to start applying given the schedule listed above? A lot of internship postings indicate that they're looking for for someone at the Freshman/Sophomore level or at the Junior/Senior level, but that does not really seem to apply to me. I am guessing that once I am in or once I have completed Data Structures, I should be in good shape for internship interviews--is that assumption correct? Would I even have a decent chance at a full time job at that point, or should I focus on trying to find a decent internship? I really appreciate any advice. 
B B fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Dec 19, 2014 |
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Dec 18, 2014 23:58
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B B posted:I am starting my foray into computer science a bit later than some. I graduated in 2009 with a BA in English, but after working in a support role for four years at a software company, I have decided that I want to snag a development role at some point in the near future. Read Cracking the Coding Interview. When you can answer a decent number of the questions apply for internships. When you can answer almost all of them without apply for jobs.
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Dec 19, 2014 00:05
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I'm going to do something about my substandard salary, I'm tired of being exploited by my employer and am having a hard time making ends meet despite living frugally. Catalyzing this decision is learning my employer offered one of my classmates/coworkers 30% more than I was offered (~$65k, still not a "good" salary for the Bay Area), despite him having a year less experience. So either I'm a lovely programmer or a complete doormat. Maybe both, but I'm sick of it. I was very upset when I found out about his offer and I'm trying to ride this wave of anger into a new job or a pay raise. This weekend I'm meeting up with a friend who managed to find a decent job and practicing technical interviewing and salary negotiations. We're going to use Cracking the Coding Interview for the technical part. It's been a long time since I've done "hard" CS concepts, most days I'm just programming, but I hope it comes back quickly. I get discouraged when I look at job postings on Stack Overflow since I don't have any experience in the most commonly-sought technologies. I've been doing embedded work for the last year and a half, in C, and I'm worried that I might become a pariah. I'm not dead-set on the same kind of low-level programming job I have now, but I just can't find anything similar *at all* that doesn't require a PhD or 10+ years experience. Somebody give me some encouragement, I feel stuck in a rut 
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Dec 19, 2014 00:46
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NovemberMike posted:Read Cracking the Coding Interview. When you can answer a decent number of the questions apply for internships. When you can answer almost all of them without apply for jobs. I disagree that you should wait until you can answer almost all the questions in that book before you apply to jobs. There's quite a bit in there that you just don't need for your average entry-level developer job. Still a great book that you should get and read, but don't use it as a metric for if you know "enough" to start applying (that mentality, being unsure if you're ready, is a beast that cannot be fed). B B posted:I am a bit confused right now about how I should approach the internship/job search over the next year. Does it make sense for me to go for an internship, or should I be applying for full time roles? (I am not sure, since I already have a previous degree in an obviously unrelated subject.) If I do go the internship, at what point would it make sense for me to start applying given the schedule listed above? A lot of internship postings indicate that they're looking for for someone at the Freshman/Sophomore level or at the Junior/Senior level, but that does not really seem to apply to me. I am guessing that once I am in or once I have completed Data Structures, I should be in good shape for internship interviews--is that assumption correct? Would I even have a decent chance at a full time job at that point, or should I focus on trying to find a decent internship? Getting through Data Structures is probably a good time to start internships if you want to do those at all, yeah. Otherwise, personal projects that you can show potential employers are a great way to show that you're not full of poo poo. Tiny little utilities or web sites that do something useful, the code up on GitHub or BitBucket so you can point an interviewer to it and say "I did that" and have something concrete to talk about, are great. You don't need an internship first to get a job, no. It's going to be helpful to show that yes, you have some experience. Personal projects like I mentioned above do that too. Beyond that, there's no harm in applying and interviewing. Even if you bomb an interview for whatever reason, it'll give you practice. I'll say it again: do not fall into the mentality of "I'm not ready, I have more to learn before I can apply to a job." Because if you like programming, you will never feel like you know enough. Just put yourself out there.
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Dec 19, 2014 01:25
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Private Speech posted:I need help finding a job for a friend who is about to get deported if she doesn't find one in 6 weeks. The most important things: she lives in the UK, she has a 2:1 MSc in CS from a decent uni and also the equivalent of a first from a 4-year E&EE degree from outside the UK, and she has decent English communication skills. She's also had 3 years of experience working for a radio device manufacturer before starting her masters and is reasonably good with C, Java and JS. Are there other ways of staying in the UK? The visa uncertainty is hell on the nerves and the people I know in that situation have to accept that they're in Schodinger's box and have a level of comfort if they ultimately can't get a job in the country. I know Obama's OPT changes are definitely going to provide relief for the international students in my MS program. I think the best thing to do is to first make contingency plans to provide a mental safety net - a lot of depression comes from losing hope in the face of uncertainty and this can destroy motivation. Also apply for jobs where she has a strong value add - that helps boost confidence as well and raises the chances of a quick hire. You can get a Nobel Prize and still fail to get a job if you don't have the confidence to communicate your abilities. You guys are also running into the holidays, so be mindful of companies that shut down around this time - which would delay hiring decisions. Good luck and I hope you guys make it! Tezzeract fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Dec 19, 2014 |
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Dec 19, 2014 15:08
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NovemberMike posted:Read Cracking the Coding Interview. When you can answer a decent number of the questions apply for internships. When you can answer almost all of them without apply for jobs. I've seen that book mentioned fairly frequently; I'll definitely pick up a copy and work through it as soon as possible. "Che Delilas' posted:Getting through Data Structures is probably a good time to start internships if you want to do those at all, yeah. Otherwise, personal projects that you can show potential employers are a great way to show that you're not full of poo poo. Tiny little utilities or web sites that do something useful, the code up on GitHub or BitBucket so you can point an interviewer to it and say "I did that" and have something concrete to talk about, are great. Yeah, I have been fooling around with Python and Django a bit in my free time, but I have not really made anything that's even close to finished. I've got a GitHub with a few things on it, but I'd be too embarrassed to show it to anyone at this point. Either way, I'll definitely work on getting some legitimate personal projects thrown up there for when it does come time to apply for things. Thanks for the feedback on the mentality bit. Imposter syndrome is strong in this one, but I am hoping that subsides as I start diving into the curriculum. 
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Dec 20, 2014 04:15
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What's the best way to sell/frame your work experience on your resume when you work in an Agile environment? It seems difficult to go into detail about the things you've worked on when it's all chunks of (often disparate) work that's been cut into 1 week or smaller bits. This seems to be further diluted by working as a full-stack developer, so I've done a lot of things from our data layer all the way up to front-end UI work. I've been here for a year and a half, and I've done an awful lot, but there aren't many big-ticket components that I can wholly take credit for. They may account for a good 3 bullet points, but I feel like there should be a lot more for me to say about my 1.5 years.
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Dec 22, 2014 22:42
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Why do you need to wholly take credit for something to list it on your resume?
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Dec 22, 2014 23:26
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To expand on Cicero's statement, you're thinking about it wrong. What you did during that 1.5 years is work on a whole bunch of stuff in an Agile team. "I worked on a bunch of projects and features as part of a team and the result was not a garbage fire" is something that not every developer can say. Employers WANT people who can work in a team. Edit: You should still enumerate the specific features and projects you worked on. Just make it clear somewhere that this job involved a team of developers, not just you. Che Delilas fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 23:37
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I suppose that's fair. I guess just took my resume as a thing on which I could list my personal accomplishments - things I can take ownership of. That's definitely an incorrect way of looking at it, given that people work in teams and split work. Thanks! Seems like a silly question to even ask, now.
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Dec 22, 2014 23:55
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I have processors on my resume that I didn't wholly design by myself.  Seriously though, half of the time I spend in interviews is asking "no, really, what was YOUR role on this project?" with varying degrees of success.
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Dec 23, 2014 00:01
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