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Paolomania
Apr 26, 2006



2banks1swap.avi posted:

Please tell me those guys at least have advancement within their employer and pay raises to match inflation and experience.

I now know what to stay the hell away from, thanks.

2b1s, from your posting pattern here and elsewhere I think your enthusiasm for finance and interest in a computing career for its financial rewards I really think you should be looking to be in some kind of quantitative analysis (or software support thereof) role. These opportunities are out there - I recently learned of such an opening doing software engineering and analysis for an Ivy endowment. Sweet gig with huge bonuses, but way above your experience level. If you want these types of roles you will need, in addition to engineering skills, a solid background in finance, statistical analysis, and rapid application development.

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Safe and Secure!
Jun 14, 2008

OFFICIAL SA THREAD RUINER
SPRING 2013


Paolomania posted:

2b1s, from your posting pattern here and elsewhere I think your enthusiasm for finance and interest in a computing career for its financial rewards I really think you should be looking to be in some kind of quantitative analysis (or software support thereof) role. These opportunities are out there - I recently learned of such an opening doing software engineering and analysis for an Ivy endowment. Sweet gig with huge bonuses, but way above your experience level. If you want these types of roles you will need, in addition to engineering skills, a solid background in finance, statistical analysis, and rapid application development.

What kind of background in finance and statistical analysis? By "rapid application development", do you mean something similar to what are usually called agile development practices?

baquerd
Jul 2, 2007
Don't take advice from me, because I'm an idiot.

Safe and Secure! posted:

What kind of background in finance and statistical analysis? By "rapid application development", do you mean something similar to what are usually called agile development practices?

A very thorough background because large institutions are nothing if not diverse in their investments if they have any clue whatsoever. I've been in finance for 4 years and I still get lost in some business conversations.

Rapid is not agile, in fact agile programming is a misnomer in terms of overall development time unless you have a team trained to do it well. Being rapid is about quickly and correctly applying creative solutions to problems that would take others more time.

shrike82
Jun 11, 2005
I HAVE NEVER CONTRIBUTED ANYTHING WORTHWHILE TO ANY DISCUSSION EVER. IF YOU ARE REPLYING TO ME YOU ARE WASTING EVEN AS PALTRY A RESOURCE AS INTERNET FORUM SPACE. PLEASE STOP ENGAGING ME FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, I'VE BEEN DOING THIS GIMMICK FOR YEARS.

Safe and Secure! posted:

What kind of background in finance and statistical analysis? By "rapid application development", do you mean something similar to what are usually called agile development practices?

RAD's basically rapid prototyping. A trader asks you to build a model to price something - you have a day to build it. Even for "longer term" projects, we're talking about delivering a usable product to business in months. Contrast this to a pure tech company like Microsoft where it takes several months for a code change to filter up all the way to the main code-base. It's not a good environment for writing code - no thought for architecture or long term use.

I think 2b1s should work on his interpersonal skills before worrying about his career. Just judging by his posts here, I'd guess he'd have a hard time making through a personality interview let alone a technical one.

baquerd
Jul 2, 2007
Don't take advice from me, because I'm an idiot.

shrike82 posted:

RAD's basically rapid prototyping. A trader asks you to build a model to price something - you have a day to build it. Even for "longer term" projects, we're talking about delivering a usable product to business in months. Contrast this to a pure tech company like Microsoft where it takes several months for a code change to filter up all the way to the main code-base. It's not a good environment for writing code - no thought for architecture or long term use.

I didn't realize you were speaking of the formalized design process. Not to put too fine a point on it, but there's a large contingent of the software industry that thinks the entire category is a terrible bunch of bullshit compared to a programmer that simply knows the business side well enough to talk about the product on an end-user level. This is from the perspective of someone who writes proprietary in-house code in finance, I suppose a more open ended and design oriented program might find better use for this stuff.

Paolomania2banks1swap.avi, read up on the topic and remember to ask what a company is using for these types of processes if you develop an opinion of your own.

baquerd fucked around with this message at May 9, 2011 around 22:32

Fuck them
Jan 21, 2011

and their bullshit


Paolomania posted:

2b1s, from your posting pattern here and elsewhere I think your enthusiasm for finance and interest in a computing career for its financial rewards I really think you should be looking to be in some kind of quantitative analysis (or software support thereof) role. These opportunities are out there - I recently learned of such an opening doing software engineering and analysis for an Ivy endowment. Sweet gig with huge bonuses, but way above your experience level. If you want these types of roles you will need, in addition to engineering skills, a solid background in finance, statistical analysis, and rapid application development.

Seeing as I just started Physics w/ calc I today, that's far off. My passion would be making hardware, or making the layer that lets high level poo poo work with hardware, such as drivers or microcode. Chugging along with high level things would not be a bad fate at all, and one I'm prepared to accept - but it's not my dream of dreams.

I'm also not doing computer engineering for the money. I'm doing it because I want to make real things or research making them better, be it bridges or bridge-chips. Stability is a co-requisite; staring at lines of codes, or a wire frame to do physics, is really quite similar. Every field needs good computation and modeling anyway, so why not go help everyone?

I'll heed your advice, but right now I'm far more interested in making analysis go better for anyone, or anyone using a given method, than making a program to do that analysis, if that makes any sense.

Hell, right now I'm thinking about how to parallelize it, though how to do it efficiently is way over my head.

Fuck them
Jan 21, 2011

and their bullshit


shrike82 posted:

I think 2b1s should work on his interpersonal skills before worrying about his career. Just judging by his posts here, I'd guess he'd have a hard time making through a personality interview let alone a technical one.

Do you really think that how I talk to goons with a horrible case of "I AM INVINCIBLE" that I'll never meet is the same as how I act with interviewing managers? Arguing with people over if reality applies to them, on the internet, is not the same as picking my battles (by not having them in the first place) where I work or with friends.

Why would I even talk about unemployment or job security anyway? If everyone who is even remotely competent is so surely employed if not overpaid why would the topic arise? Just because I don't share your world view or belief in the locus of control being completely internal doesn't mean I'm a jackass who goes trying to prosthelytize the workplace.

You disagree with me. We get it. You think everyone who is unemployed is personally responsible and anyone competent has a job and everyone is personally responsible for their fortune. I don't. Why did you bring this back up again?

shrike82
Jun 11, 2005
I HAVE NEVER CONTRIBUTED ANYTHING WORTHWHILE TO ANY DISCUSSION EVER. IF YOU ARE REPLYING TO ME YOU ARE WASTING EVEN AS PALTRY A RESOURCE AS INTERNET FORUM SPACE. PLEASE STOP ENGAGING ME FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, I'VE BEEN DOING THIS GIMMICK FOR YEARS.

2banks1swap.avi posted:

Do you really think that how I talk to goons with a horrible case of "I AM INVINCIBLE" that I'll never meet is the same as how I act with interviewing managers? Arguing with people over if reality applies to them, on the internet, is not the same as picking my battles (by not having them in the first place) where I work or with friends.

Why would I even talk about unemployment or job security anyway? If everyone who is even remotely competent is so surely employed if not overpaid why would the topic arise? Just because I don't share your world view or belief in the locus of control being completely internal doesn't mean I'm a jackass who goes trying to prosthelytize the workplace.

You disagree with me. We get it. You think everyone who is unemployed is personally responsible and anyone competent has a job and everyone is personally responsible for their fortune. I don't. Why did you bring this back up again?

I couldn't give a poo poo about your babby's first socialist thought. Over the course of this year, I've seen you post about wanting to be a geologist, an enviro engineer, a civil engineer, and now something to do with CS or CE?

You could have spent that half year constructively on learning some skills rather than endlessly posting about your ever-changing goals not to mention that you've spent sometime in CC without trying to do anything harder than Calc 1. I cant wait for you to take some discrete math or a compiler class and have your dreams crushed.

I've had teenagers 6-7 years younger PM me with more concrete plans, skills, and most importantly the desire to learn on their own than you have.

Fuck them
Jan 21, 2011

and their bullshit


"Courses" in "schools" have a "sequence" of "prerequisites" that I have to take before I get to the material which makes me as hard as you, or for that matter your skull.

I'm kind of astonished you've neglected to remember this fact.

ninjeff
Jan 19, 2004



2banks1swap.avi posted:

"Courses" in "schools" have a "sequence" of "prerequisites" that I have to take before I get to the material which makes me as hard as you, or for that matter your skull.

I'm kind of astonished you've neglected to remember this fact.

Well, he did say he got his ideas about life plans from teenagers.

Milotic
Mar 4, 2009

9CL apologist

shrike82 posted:

RAD's basically rapid prototyping. A trader asks you to build a model to price something - you have a day to build it. Even for "longer term" projects, we're talking about delivering a usable product to business in months. Contrast this to a pure tech company like Microsoft where it takes several months for a code change to filter up all the way to the main code-base. It's not a good environment for writing code - no thought for architecture or long term use.

On the other hand, it can be very enjoyable for certain personality types. You feel very close to the users, every day is a different challenge, it's great solving a problem within the timeframe, and chatting with the user what they want delivered first. You also see almost immediate impact on the business. On the other hand, it can be stressful as hell, and unpredictable long hours from time to time.

You also find yourself predisposed to using certain technology and certain design patterns. They might not be pretty, they might not be the most technically interesting, robust or cutting edge, but they get the job done. I'd also like to argue you spend a lot less time writing plumbing code, and more time on business logic and problem solving.

I did it for over 3 years, really enjoyed it, was then moved off to be a SharePoint developer, and found I just didn't give a gently caress anymore as I was three degrees of separation from the customers, and I had bullshit 24+ page specifications to plow through for the simplest things. I guess having to work with SharePoint didn't help.

It's definitely a career I'd recommend for the right personality types.

Jick Magger
Dec 27, 2005


Here's a rather odd (to me) question.

I've got an interview this week for a position at a university, and they've asked me to "bring in between one line and one page of their favorite code to discuss. " It doesn't have to be code I've written, and it doesn't matter the language.

... So what on earth are they asking me for?

I don't really have any code that I've written that I think is worth showing off, and I can't think of anything I've read lately that was particularly clever. This is for a < 1 year experience position, so perhaps they're just wanting to make sure I'm not completely talking out my rear end?

Mobius
Sep 26, 2000


Jick Magger posted:

Here's a rather odd (to me) question.

I've got an interview this week for a position at a university, and they've asked me to "bring in between one line and one page of their favorite code to discuss. " It doesn't have to be code I've written, and it doesn't matter the language.

... So what on earth are they asking me for?

I don't really have any code that I've written that I think is worth showing off, and I can't think of anything I've read lately that was particularly clever. This is for a < 1 year experience position, so perhaps they're just wanting to make sure I'm not completely talking out my rear end?

Go to the Coding Horrors thread, pick out your favorite bad example, then use that. You can tell your interviewers you like it because it's a great example of how NOT to do something, you can explain what's wrong with it, then talk about how you would do it and why your way is better.

shrike82
Jun 11, 2005
I HAVE NEVER CONTRIBUTED ANYTHING WORTHWHILE TO ANY DISCUSSION EVER. IF YOU ARE REPLYING TO ME YOU ARE WASTING EVEN AS PALTRY A RESOURCE AS INTERNET FORUM SPACE. PLEASE STOP ENGAGING ME FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, I'VE BEEN DOING THIS GIMMICK FOR YEARS.

Milotic posted:

On the other hand, it can be very enjoyable for certain personality types. You feel very close to the users, every day is a different challenge, it's great solving a problem within the timeframe, and chatting with the user what they want delivered first. You also see almost immediate impact on the business. On the other hand, it can be stressful as hell, and unpredictable long hours from time to time.

You also find yourself predisposed to using certain technology and certain design patterns. They might not be pretty, they might not be the most technically interesting, robust or cutting edge, but they get the job done. I'd also like to argue you spend a lot less time writing plumbing code, and more time on business logic and problem solving.

I did it for over 3 years, really enjoyed it, was then moved off to be a SharePoint developer, and found I just didn't give a gently caress anymore as I was three degrees of separation from the customers, and I had bullshit 24+ page specifications to plow through for the simplest things. I guess having to work with SharePoint didn't help.

It's definitely a career I'd recommend for the right personality types.

I work as a developer on a trading desk so RAD pros/cons are very close to my heart. I didn't mean to give anyone the impression that it's all bad but there're certainly issues with the development model.

It's funny how literally millions or billions of dollars are traded/invested on the basis of Excel spreadsheets and hacked up DLLs. I don't know if I'd want to be like some developers I've met who are career Excel monkeys or masters of hacking up something that works well enough but requires rearchitecting everytime you need to add a new feature.

Ithaqua
Jul 18, 2003

Only in Kenya.

Here's an interview tip: Don't put things you've never used before on your resume. I just interviewed a guy today who, when asked about WCF and MSMQ, said "Oh, my current company uses those. I've never used them, but I want to learn!"

Of course, he also took 30 minutes to get a non-working implementation of FizzBuzz to the point where it would even compile. I've seen so many people fail to code FizzBuzz correctly that it almost makes me wonder if it's a valid test. What do you guys think?

tef
May 30, 2004

-> some l-system crap ->


I think your phone screening needs work

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him


Ithaqua posted:

Of course, he also took 30 minutes to get a non-working implementation of FizzBuzz to the point where it would even compile. I've seen so many people fail to code FizzBuzz correctly that it almost makes me wonder if it's a valid test. What do you guys think?

The more I interview people, the more frustrated I get with people not asking questions about what I want -- requirements and expectations are key to both artificial interview questions and real software engineering!

Anyways, after I make sure they understand what I want, they can usually bang it out. The one thing I stress before they start is that I want "Fizz" and "Buzz" to be on the same line when they happen together. Lots of people will oversimplify and print them on separate lines, which can be more elegant, but not what I asked for. If they miss that part, I ask them to correct it, which can take some work depending on what kind of print functions they elected to use.

Some people decide to print FizzBuzz via some kind of fall-through. I'm totally ok with that in such a small, contained problem. If they do it that way, I follow up and ask them to change 15 to 17, and try to tease out why their implementation makes that a bigger change.

So I guess I do try to tack on a few software engineering talking points in there. Though I only do that if they have an easy time of it. I've definitely seen people struggle through it, and it's hard to administer the rest of the interview .

Ithaqua
Jul 18, 2003

Only in Kenya.

kimbo305 posted:

The more I interview people, the more frustrated I get with people not asking questions about what I want -- requirements and expectations are key to both artificial interview questions and real software engineering!

Anyways, after I make sure they understand what I want, they can usually bang it out. The one thing I stress before they start is that I want "Fizz" and "Buzz" to be on the same line when they happen together. Lots of people will oversimplify and print them on separate lines, which can be more elegant, but not what I asked for. If they miss that part, I ask them to correct it, which can take some work depending on what kind of print functions they elected to use.


See, that's the thing... most of the people we get have such fundamental problems that understanding the requirements doesn't even factor in. I've seen people not know the mod operator, I've seen people people struggle with creating a for loop, etc.

This last guy had 12 years of coding experience on his resume, and he knew concepts and could discuss them intelligently. I just don't understand how you can know all about abstract classes and dependency injection and then not be able to bang out a for loop with a couple of ifs. The only explanation I can come up with his that there are a lot of people who go for rote memorization.

Blotto Skorzany
Nov 7, 2008

He's a PSoC, loose and runnin'
came the whisper from each lip
And he's here to do some business with
the bad ADC on his chip
bad ADC on his chiiiiip


Ithaqua posted:

This last guy had 12 years of coding experience on his resume, and he knew concepts and could discuss them intelligently. I just don't understand how you can know all about abstract classes and dependency injection and then not be able to bang out a for loop with a couple of ifs. The only explanation I can come up with his that there are a lot of people who go for rote memorization.

Perhaps software engineering is to engineering what astrology is to astronomy

Contra Duck
Nov 4, 2004

#1 DAD


Speaking of being on the other side of the interview, is there a thread around here about tips/techniques when interviewing developers? I've got to do some of that pretty soon and I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on what works and what doesn't.

Thel
Apr 28, 2010



Contra Duck posted:

Speaking of being on the other side of the interview, is there a thread around here about tips/techniques when interviewing developers? I've got to do some of that pretty soon and I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on what works and what doesn't.

First thing to remember is they'll be even more nervous than you are. You have to be able to figure out if the cat's got their tongue or if they're thick as a brick.

If you're in any way competent at programming yourself, you'll be able to spot the fizz-failures pretty much straight away. If they can do FizzBuzz (or something related, my personal favorite is to get them to write a program to output 1-100 in a 10x10 grid*), then they can probably pick up anything else you need - obviously with a longer lead-in time if they have to learn the language as well as the codebase). After that it comes down to attitude:
- Are they a giant cockhead? (You don't want to hire a *nix-for-life neckbeard if you're a C#/.NET shop. Also covers whitespace/indentation , if their style doesn't mesh with yours that can be a world of ongoing pain.)
- Are they socially-adapted enough for the job? (If you keep your developers safely locked in the basement, then there's less requirement for social ability than there is in a fully customer-involved agile team.)
- Will they fit with your dev team's culture/style, and the wider company? (I've seen groups that wouldn't be out of place in a library, and different groups that sounded like a wharf on a busy day. Nuns and whorehouses etc.)

*i.e.
code:
 1   ...   10
             
 .
 .
 .

 91  ...  100 
If they do something like write("1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10") x10, that's probably not a good sign. If they're good/experienced, they'll ask whether it should be static or capable of coping with different grid sizes before they start writing anything.

Thel fucked around with this message at May 12, 2011 around 02:01

Melted_Igloo
Nov 26, 2007


I dread interviews for many many reasons

-Some companies only care if youre using .NET 4.00009 and absolutely dont accept if youre using .NET 4.00008 (I know i made those up)

-Some are just throwing random questions that have no purpose. Someone literally asked me "Do you do any web development?" When I explicitly have HTML/Javascript/AJAX all listed on my resume

-I cant tell if they are normal human beings, because I ask them questions like "Would you like to see some examples of my previous work?" and they shake their head and kind of say no

Fuck them
Jan 21, 2011

and their bullshit


Thel posted:


- Will they fit with your dev team's culture/style, and the wider company? (I've seen groups that wouldn't be out of place in a library, and different groups that sounded like a wharf on a busy day. Nuns and whorehouses etc.)


How does the interviewee drop that they're more of the wharf-dwelling sort without scaring off groups who want more clean-cut personalities, without blowing their chances at getting valuable experience for a few years in a place which would much prefer the quiet sort? I've worked in places ranging from shipyards to libraries, so neither would be out of place for me.

In all honesty, when interviewing I tend to read them and put on the "interview hat", making sure I touch all the buzzwords that show I either bothered to check up on the lingo, or actually buy into it.

While I'm asking - do you care either way if the guy really buys it, or just plays along with it, but is still capable either way, if you could tell or he later admits it? As grating as saying words you never use otherwise may seem, it seems to have evolved into a litmus test to weed out people who can't or don't want to fit in and play the business game.

Personally, I've never not done well in an interview, but it really feels like an act. I'm wondering if when you move up to technical work, the charade goes away, or just changes to more of a mutual kabuki play.

Aredna
Mar 17, 2007


Melted_Igloo posted:

-Some are just throwing random questions that have no purpose. Someone literally asked me "Do you do any web development?" When I explicitly have HTML/Javascript/AJAX all listed on my resume

You would be amazed how many people I've interviewed that put xyz skills on their resume and when you ask them about it say something like "Some coworkers used it a lot, but I didn't really."

Thel
Apr 28, 2010



2banks1swap.avi posted:

How does the interviewee drop that they're more of the wharf-dwelling sort without scaring off groups who want more clean-cut personalities, without blowing their chances at getting valuable experience for a few years in a place which would much prefer the quiet sort? I've worked in places ranging from shipyards to libraries, so neither would be out of place for me.

You can be delicate about it, just say you have a varied work history and feel you can fit in anywhere from a library to a factory (I actually had both of these on my CV for a while). Generally, unless they drop casual f-bombs, you want to keep it professional, sort of follow their lead.

As far as interviews go, if you're chasing the job then the interviews are generally going to be pretty similar (the kabuki dance as you put it). If you get headhunted for a job, then there's going to be less-to-no dancing around whether you can do the job, the short form will be "We've got a job doing <x> open, interested? Cool, when can you start?".

Winkle-Daddy
Mar 10, 2007


Aredna posted:

You would be amazed how many people I've interviewed that put xyz skills on their resume and when you ask them about it say something like "Some coworkers used it a lot, but I didn't really."

Heh, I was conducting interviews for a tech support job for web hosting support. We do ask that our reps understand basic HTML/PHP for the sole purpose of determining if a problem is server side or if the customer did something dumb.

I had one guy that wrote "Expert in HTML, JavaScript and PHP" on his resume. I threw him a dry erase marker figuring I'd give a super softball question first to make sure we're on the same page. I asked him to write an HTML image tag on the board. He looked at me with a blank stare for a second and said "oh, you caught me!"

What the gently caress does that even mean?

I then asked him if I asked him to write some PHP if I would also "catch him". He nodded his head yes and said "I'm not getting the job, am I?" I told him no and sent him on his way.

Seriously, what the gently caress do some people think the point of a resume is? Hint:It's not what you want to know.

Ithaqua
Jul 18, 2003

Only in Kenya.

Melted_Igloo posted:

I dread interviews for many many reasons

-Some companies only care if youre using .NET 4.00009 and absolutely dont accept if youre using .NET 4.00008 (I know i made those up)

Well, yes, if they're standardized on one version of a development platform and you haven't used it, then you might not be a good fit.

My company is on .NET 4.0. We're not using many new .NET 4 features yet, but we definitely will be over time. That's why we ask interviewees what the latest version they've used both personally and professionally. We understand that larger companies are slower to adopt new technologies, so saying "I've been playing with .NET 4 at home!" and having a brief chat about the new stuff that they like is good enough. Someone who's like "Nah, I've been using .NET 2.0 for the past 5 years and I've made no effort to keep on top of recent developments in my field" is a huge red flag.

Mobius
Sep 26, 2000


Mobius posted:

I recently made a shift away from IT towards development. I was in a technical systems analyst/support/DBA/product guru sort of role for about five years and gradually took on more development responsibilities. I left that company to pursue development full time. My title right now is technically "programmer," but I think I'd eventually like to be in a "software engineer" or "architect" type of role.

Basically, I love the whole process of software development, but I REALLY like the bigger picture side of identifying business needs and/or deficiencies in current systems, then determining how to re-engineer them or build new features and products to fill gaps.

I consider myself a competent, but not amazing coder. I don't have a CS degree. I see my current role as a chance to improve those skills, but I'm never going to be the guy that eeks the most out of every single CPU cycle, or busts out a brilliant algorithm in no time. That's just not where my interests lie.

Am I right in thinking that an engineering or architect position is where I should be aiming? If so, what steps can I take next to move into that kind of role? My current position has opportunities to move into a tech lead or management position, but there's nobody in an architect sort of role that guides the long-term vision of the product.


I figured I would follow up on this from January... I think I may have been underestimating myself when I started this job. Seven months into my first full-time development job, using a language I hadn't touched in almost a decade (Java), my manager informed me yesterday they're making me a tech lead for a new customer. On top of development, I'll be responsible for system implementation over the next year. They're also going to bring in a couple other developers to help me. They won't report through me for HR purposes, but I'll be responsible for reviewing and approving their work.

I was hung up on the fact that I didn't have the CS background that a lot of people have and couldn't do things like immediately crank out a textbook example of an efficient search or sort algorithm. It turns out those things don't really matter that much in a lot of business apps. Here's what I've leared DOES matter:

1. Write code that works (and actually does what the customer needs).
2. Deliver on time.
3. Write code that's maintainable.
4. Write code that doesn't bring the system to its knees.
5. Build screens that are usable.
6. Document your code well.
7. Take on additional projects when things are slow.
8. Work well with others.
9. Learn new things without having your hand held.

A lot of people seem to struggle with #1 and #2, let alone the rest. I've managed to do these things, and I think that set me apart.

If you can manage to demonstrate through your resume and interview that you can accomplish these things, then a lot of people will be willing to take a chance on you, even if you don't have the exact technology background they're looking for.

Mobius fucked around with this message at May 14, 2011 around 18:10

Mike1o1
Sep 5, 2004
Tiluvas

Mobius posted:

If you can manage to demonstrate through your resume and interview that you can accomplish these things, then a lot of people will be willing to take a chance on you, even if you don't have the exact technology background they're looking for.

Thanks for the follow-up, it gives me some inspiration that I can make a similar transition from BA to Developer.

Based on your previous post, you were in a technical/business analyst type role, which is something I was in as well. I did coding about 15% of the time, but it was only in VBA and Access as those were the only "development" tools we were allowed to have.

Just curious, how exactly did you demonstrate on your resume that you were able to do #1 and #2? I'm a decent coder, and do programming as a hobby using C#, but I don't have any finished projects just yet to demonstrate to a prospective employer.

I'm having a hard time getting my foot in the door for interviews, though I have one interview next week doing Classic ASP...

Mobius
Sep 26, 2000


Mike1o1 posted:

Thanks for the follow-up, it gives me some inspiration that I can make a similar transition from BA to Developer.

Based on your previous post, you were in a technical/business analyst type role, which is something I was in as well. I did coding about 15% of the time, but it was only in VBA and Access as those were the only "development" tools we were allowed to have.

Just curious, how exactly did you demonstrate on your resume that you were able to do #1 and #2? I'm a decent coder, and do programming as a hobby using C#, but I don't have any finished projects just yet to demonstrate to a prospective employer.

I'm having a hard time getting my foot in the door for interviews, though I have one interview next week doing Classic ASP...

In my previous job, I worked with the team leads to become a part-time member of the development team. After a few years of that, I had several completed, released, projects that I could put on my resume and talk about during interviews. So yeah, just get some projects under your belt however you can.

Ithaqua
Jul 18, 2003

Only in Kenya.

Mobius posted:

So yeah, just get some projects under your belt however you can.

Contributing to open source projects isn't a bad idea, although this is a case where I definitely need to practice what I preach.

Belgarath
Feb 21, 2003


Ithaqua posted:

I've seen so many people fail to code FizzBuzz correctly that it almost makes me wonder if it's a valid test. What do you guys think?
I believe that it is a valid test. It requires that you have some basic knowledge of programming concepts such as if-else conditional logic, looping, basic maths skills and you can output poo poo to a terminal.

If you can't manage FizzBuzz, then you are wasting ours and your time. From our last round of hiring we had one person fail FizzBuzz, which probably just means the recruiter was doing their job right.

This is why we have a second test, which is more complicated, and we found this is were 90% of candidates fell down. It's not an impossible test, by any stretch, but we find it's a pretty decent indicator of how you approach solving a non-trivial problem.

Contra Duck
Nov 4, 2004

#1 DAD


Thel posted:

Interview stuff

Thanks for that, all very helpful. First interview was yesterday and it was pretty shocking to see someone with nearly a decade of experience fall down so badly on the grid problem you posted above. Hopefully the next ones go a bit better

Gallatin
Sep 20, 2004


Belgarath posted:

I believe that it is a valid test. It requires that you have some basic knowledge of programming concepts such as if-else conditional logic, looping, basic maths skills and you can output poo poo to a terminal.

If you can't manage FizzBuzz, then you are wasting ours and your time. From our last round of hiring we had one person fail FizzBuzz, which probably just means the recruiter was doing their job right.

This is why we have a second test, which is more complicated, and we found this is were 90% of candidates fell down. It's not an impossible test, by any stretch, but we find it's a pretty decent indicator of how you approach solving a non-trivial problem.

Can you tell us anything about the 2nd test?

tef
May 30, 2004

-> some l-system crap ->


Ithaqua posted:

I've seen so many people fail to code FizzBuzz correctly that it almost makes me wonder if it's a valid test. What do you guys think?

Many people who apply for programming jobs are unable to program. Many, many people.
If you interview people and find out the basics are missing, it means your phone screening needs work.

I have heard of a simple interviewing process:

Ask them for their github/bitbucket repo, with example code in it.
If it looks ok, ask them to pair in the interview and write some code together.

csammis
Aug 26, 2003

Mental Institution

tef posted:

Ask them for their github/bitbucket repo, with example code in it.
If it looks ok, ask them to pair in the interview and write some code together.

I could see this being a good gauge for college grads but not for developers with families and full-time jobs already under their belt. I put in eight hours at work, get my fill of fulfilling work, and then want nothing to do with the computer machine when I come home (save for some volunteer work for my wife's library).

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him


I've heard the argument that people who love to code will have code project hobbies on the side, and that is something you should look for. I don't know how widely that view is held by recruiting people or programmers in general, but I don't agree with it.

I like to code, I love to solve problems, but I put almost all of that effort into my job. Sometimes I work weekends because I think of a possibly better way to code something and I can't let it sit. But at the same time, I'd wish I wasn't completely consumed by it. I wouldn't fault anyone who didn't have outside projects, as long as they had demonstrable aptitude for coding and getting things done.

Orzo
Sep 3, 2004

IT! IT is confusing! Say your goddamn pronouns!


tef posted:

Ask them for their github/bitbucket repo, with example code in it.
This is a terrible idea because it filters out lots of really good developers. Why not just ask some basic programming questions on the phone? Works for us.

tef
May 30, 2004

-> some l-system crap ->


csammis posted:

I could see this being a good gauge for college grads but not for developers with families and full-time jobs already under their belt. I put in eight hours at work, get my fill of fulfilling work, and then want nothing to do with the computer machine when I come home (save for some volunteer work for my wife's library).

Orzo posted:

This is a terrible idea because it filters out lots of really good developers. Why not just ask some basic programming questions on the phone? Works for us.

Things that filter out lots of good developers aren't necessarily that bad, if they filter out a significant chunk of bad developers. Really, If you've ever had to write a sample bit of code, you can stick it on github.

I *rarely* hack stuff on the side, but you can get one or two tiny hacks in the years you've been sitting infront of the computer. The last time I was asked to write some code for an interview, I put it on github. So can you.


Then again I guess if you're hiring people to write enterprise middleware, github isn't a good indicator. However i'm one of these people who ends up working in a startup, and people with more enthusiasm than sense tend to congregate in these jobs


What about the other suggestion, pairing in the interview ?

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tef
May 30, 2004

-> some l-system crap ->


csammis posted:

I put in eight hours at work, get my fill of fulfilling work, and then want nothing to do with the computer machine when I come home (save for some volunteer work for my wife's library).

that's a real shaim.

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