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Doctor Shitfaced
Feb 13, 2012


OneThousandMonkeys posted:

So I have been using the Monster Mod, and uh. . . While I appreciate the spirit, and some of the new ideas are good, it mostly just turns the game into bullshit. The NCR station on the south end of the map, for instance, is now covered on all sides by epic level tarantulas that for some reason soak 40mm rounds. I am almost better off taking my chances in the Deathclaw zone.

Is there a better monster mod? Or a balanced one?

The fact that there were 100% invisible enemies (and I'm not talking Stealth Boy invisible, I mean it looks like thin air is attacking you) added by the mod didn't help. Or perhaps I installed the mod incorrectly on two separate occasions.

It was also strange seeing re-skinned Deathclaws as "Werewolves".

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Naky
May 30, 2001

Resident Crackhead

Nihilist Duck posted:

Huh.. I don't see that, maybe I'll re-install it.

If you're using the FOMOD, yeah, you probably will have to re-install. The manual install has all the esps in the 7z file so you could have just copied it over into your Data folder. Note though that the cabinet esp has a hilarious benefit of equipping the good folks of Goodsprings up very well when the Powder Gangers come calling. I can fix that but refuse to since I think it's frickin' hilarious.

Coughing Hobo
Jun 29, 2005

Why does he have two swords? Does he lose them often?


Naky posted:

If you're using the FOMOD, yeah, you probably will have to re-install. The manual install has all the esps in the 7z file so you could have just copied it over into your Data folder. Note though that the cabinet esp has a hilarious benefit of equipping the good folks of Goodsprings up very well when the Powder Gangers come calling. I can fix that but refuse to since I think it's frickin' hilarious.

Never fix it. Never ever for as long as you work on the Armory.

Whenever I do that quest, usually there's zero no-name Goodspringers left alive, and one or two named NPCs are usually dead because they grab the most explodey weapon they can and end up gibbing themselves trying to take out a Powder Ganger from four inches away with an explosive.

Akumos
Sep 10, 2006


Naky posted:

If you're using the FOMOD, yeah, you probably will have to re-install. The manual install has all the esps in the 7z file so you could have just copied it over into your Data folder. Note though that the cabinet esp has a hilarious benefit of equipping the good folks of Goodsprings up very well when the Powder Gangers come calling. I can fix that but refuse to since I think it's frickin' hilarious.

I wouldn't know, I murdered the whole town in about a minute this run.

MadPierrot
Nov 4, 2009

we are all dead men on leave


It was definitely interesting to see Easy Pete mow down Cobb and everyone else with one of the new miniguns before anyone else had any time to react.

FadedReality
Sep 5, 2007

So much time and so little to do.

Is there a mod that makes things really harsh like rope kid's does but doesn't require all the DLC?

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why?! Why?! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market ?!!!


Question about rope kid's mod --

I've never played NV before and am starting with just rope kid's mod because it seems to be aimed at the sort of gaming experience I'm looking for, i.e., a harder one where buying the "ultimate edition" DLC package doesn't meant I get showered with so much extra loot at the beginning of the game that my character can't even walk under the weight of it all.

I've been reading over the changelist though and some of the stuff on here I don't have enough experience with the game to evaluate -- for example, I can see that it changes around all the DR values for various armors, but I can't figure out what it's making better / worse and what that means in terms of gameplay -- is he making other armors viable alternatives to power armor, or nerfing power armor in the endgame, or ?

Could someone give me a brief rundown of the major changes in layman's terms? I can get the details from the change list, I'm just trying to figure out the "goals" of the mod so I know what to expect.

Smol
Jun 1, 2011

Yeah, yeah, yeah
Village...

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

Question about rope kid's mod --

I've never played NV before and am starting with just rope kid's mod because it seems to be aimed at the sort of gaming experience I'm looking for, i.e., a harder one where buying the "ultimate edition" DLC package doesn't meant I get showered with so much extra loot at the beginning of the game that my character can't even walk under the weight of it all.

I've been reading over the changelist though and some of the stuff on here I don't have enough experience with the game to evaluate -- for example, I can see that it changes around all the DR values for various armors, but I can't figure out what it's making better / worse and what that means in terms of gameplay -- is he making other armors viable alternatives to power armor, or nerfing power armor in the endgame, or ?

Could someone give me a brief rundown of the major changes in layman's terms? I can get the details from the change list, I'm just trying to figure out the "goals" of the mod so I know what to expect.

  • Tons of bug fixes / restored content / balance changes
  • Your hitpoints and carrying capacity are halved
  • Slower leveling
  • Level cap is 35
  • Stimpaks aren't weightless

Galactic
Mar 25, 2009

Planetary


Coming to the PC version from the PS3 one. Bought the Ultimate Edition and am currently patching!

So I really liked OOO for Oblivion, would Project Nevada be what I am looking for? Basically I want something that adds a bunch of new content, leveled lists, weapons, monsters etc.

If not should I just pick and choose a bunch of different mods?

Cream-of-Plenty
Apr 21, 2010


S Danger K posted:

Coming to the PC version from the PS3 one. Bought the Ultimate Edition and am currently patching!

So I really liked OOO for Oblivion, would Project Nevada be what I am looking for? Basically I want something that adds a bunch of new content, leveled lists, weapons, monsters etc.

If not should I just pick and choose a bunch of different mods?

There's nothing for NV that is as comprehensive as Oblivion's OOO / Fran's. While PN can do things for balancing and equipment, it doesn't add new mutants or locations. FOOK does more with new equipment than PN, but it's not a great rebalancing mod. It's also not nearly as modular as PN.

If you couldn't give a poo poo less about tweaking variables, FOOK might be up your alley. Otherwise, check out mods like the Monster Mod and the NVInteriors Project.

RagnarokAngel
Oct 5, 2006

D:


Smol posted:

  • Tons of bug fixes / restored content / balance changes
  • Your hitpoints and carrying capacity are halved
  • Slower leveling
  • Level cap is 35
  • Stimpaks aren't weightless

Short version is it makes the game more difficult but not through making enemies bullet sponges. I'd say it makes it more "lethal" is the proper term.

Galactic
Mar 25, 2009

Planetary


Cream-of-Plenty posted:

There's nothing for NV that is as comprehensive as Oblivion's OOO / Fran's. While PN can do things for balancing and equipment, it doesn't add new mutants or locations. FOOK does more with new equipment than PN, but it's not a great rebalancing mod. It's also not nearly as modular as PN.

If you couldn't give a poo poo less about tweaking variables, FOOK might be up your alley. Otherwise, check out mods like the Monster Mod and the NVInteriors Project.

Ok thanks! I will download FOOK, NVInteriors and Monster Mod to start with.

Light Gun Man
Oct 17, 2009

toEjAM iS oN
vACAtioN


I tried doing my first texture mod last night and when I loaded up the game, the texture was on, but everything was in the wrong place.

I'm assuming that I saved the file incorrectly or something? I was making a new skin for the pimp boy, if that helps. The plugin's save output has a shitload of options and I am unaware of which buttons I should be leaving on and off, basically.

Also I have a couple of ideas for armor but not really any skill or drive to create them, is there a modding IRC or something I can float concepts by people?

Naky
May 30, 2001

Resident Crackhead

Light Gun Man posted:

I tried doing my first texture mod last night and when I loaded up the game, the texture was on, but everything was in the wrong place.

I'm assuming that I saved the file incorrectly or something? I was making a new skin for the pimp boy, if that helps. The plugin's save output has a shitload of options and I am unaware of which buttons I should be leaving on and off, basically.

Also I have a couple of ideas for armor but not really any skill or drive to create them, is there a modding IRC or something I can float concepts by people?

The only gamebryo modding thread I've ever seen posted in this thread is ours, #thearmory @ synirc.net. If you can stand hearing our gun related development chatter on it, there's a few of us who are pretty familiar with the engine and the game in there. Beyond that, there might be some public type ones found on Nexus or something but I'd be terrified to go in there.

OneThousandMonkeys
Oct 9, 2005

The Strangest Vengeance Ever Planned

Smol posted:

  • Your carrying capacity is halved
  • Stimpaks aren't weightless

This doesn't make anything harder, it just inconveniences you and makes things take longer.

AG3
Feb 4, 2004

Ask me about spending hundreds of dollars on Mass Effect 2 emoticons and avatars.


OneThousandMonkeys posted:

This doesn't make anything harder, it just inconveniences you and makes things take longer.

If you are an obsessive-compulsive hoarder who just can't leave anything behind (like me), then yes, that's probably all it will do. If not though, it means needing to make some tough choices regarding what (and how much) to take with you when you leave your designated storage area. You'll want enough to actually survive, but not so much that you can't pick up any fancy new loot you'll find.

Old World Blues took me ages to finish even without the JSawyer mod because I was trekking back and forth between the Sink and whatever area I was exploring, hoarding every single piece of scrap metal (and my god there's a lot of scrap metal in OWB) and other items I found. Since I was playing hardcore, ammo had weight as well, and even for weapons I never use I simply couldn't get myself to leave ammunition behind.

AG3 fucked around with this message at Feb 16, 2012 around 12:54

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why?! Why?! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market ?!!!


OneThousandMonkeys posted:

This doesn't make anything harder, it just inconveniences you and makes things take longer.

I'm finding I really enjoy it because it adds to immersion. I hate "weightless" items that aren't of obviously trivial weight (bubblegum). Ammo is heavy, I know that, I have a great big box of the stuff in my garage, and every time I saw my fallout 3 character effortlessly pick up a few thousand rounds of .308 it reminded me "this game is on easy mode."

So I like the hardcore option and so far I'm liking having to juggle item weight with this mod. I'm already having to think hard about what weapons to cut down to, etc. It feels like I'm playing in "realistic" mode, and I like that.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


Smol posted:

  • Tons of bug fixes / restored content / balance changes
  • Your hitpoints and carrying capacity are halved
  • Slower leveling
  • Level cap is 35
  • Stimpaks aren't weightless
Stimpaks are also much less common and are often the new "Expired" variety, healing less. DR has been added to Medium armor (in small quantities) and to Heavy armor (in larger quantities). This makes those armor types more appealing, especially against high DAM attacks (e.g. Deathclaws, Brush Guns, grenades, etc.).

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


Bros, I am thinking of making a supplemental mod as an experiment. The experiment would do the following things:

* Replace Guns and Energy Weapons with (temp names) Precise Firearms and Automatic Firearms.
* Move flamey things into Explosives.
* Re-balance what were previously Guns/EWs with EWs typically being superior versions of Guns. E.g. a Laser Rifle is better than a Hunting Rifle (Precise), a Gatling Laser is a better version of a Minigun (Automatics).

I'm not sure if it will produce good results, but I think it's worth trying out.

rope kid fucked around with this message at Feb 16, 2012 around 21:32

Beaumont
Dec 12, 2011


rope kid posted:

* Replace Guns and Energy Weapons with (temp names) Precise Firearms and Automatic Firearms.

This would be fantastic. Gameplay-wise, EWs have felt out of place in pretty much every Fallout game. They've never really had a solid niche, and Energy was never something you tagged on your first playthrough. Even their position in the game world is kind of odd - Weapons Of The Future! that are weaker than heavy calibre pistols and cowboy rifles. To make them endgame gear would just make a lot more sense to me, I guess.

Chronojam
Feb 20, 2006

This is me on vacation in Amsterdam
Never be afraid of being yourself!

It's a neat idea. Is it possible to let skill points impact how quickly a weapon goes bad? So early on it can let you bring some punch to the start of a fight if your drifter finds himself a zapper, but he's better off sticking to his guns (no pun intended) with a revolver for general shootouts. Somebody who actually knows how to calibrate and care for it would be able to rely on it as a primary weapon. So basically, useful early on but not gamebreaking since it'd be more a special circumstances thing until towards the end.

(Also, Precision Weapons vs Automatic Weapons sounds better)

Upmarket Mango
May 21, 2011

I've got a cure for bitch, Barbara, and you're begging for a taste of it.


rope kid posted:

Bros, I am thinking of making a supplemental mod as an experiment. The experiment would do the following things:

* Replace Guns and Energy Weapons with (temp names) Precise Firearms and Automatic Firearms.
* Move flamey things into Explosives.
* Re-balance what were previously Guns/EWs with EWs typically being superior versions of Guns. E.g. a Laser Rifle is better than a Hunting Rifle (Precise), a Gatling Laser is a better version of a Minigun (Automatics).

I'm not sure if it will produce good results, but I think it's worth trying out.

This will be super awesome and might be the thing to finally push me into another playthrough of New Vegas.

Cream-of-Plenty
Apr 21, 2010


rope kid posted:

Bros, I am thinking of making a supplemental mod as an experiment. The experiment would do the following things:

* Replace Guns and Energy Weapons with (temp names) Precise Firearms and Automatic Firearms.
* Move flamey things into Explosives.
* Re-balance what were previously Guns/EWs with EWs typically being superior versions of Guns. E.g. a Laser Rifle is better than a Hunting Rifle (Precise), a Gatling Laser is a better version of a Minigun (Automatics).

I'm not sure if it will produce good results, but I think it's worth trying out.

I'd say it's an interesting concept. I'm curious where the line would be drawn between "Precise" and "Automatic" firearms--granted they're temporary names. Is the litmus test simply firing mode? So hunting rifles and repeaters would be paired up with pump-action shotguns and marksman carbines? And .22 SMGs would be in the same category as SMMGs and Gatling lasers? Flamers are going to be moved into "explosives", but does that extend to grenade launchers (which don't really feel like "precise" or "automatic" weapons.)

Anime Schoolgirl
Nov 28, 2002



Another workable configuration would be:
"Light Weapons" (handguns, handheld shotguns, throwables)
"Close Quarters" (shotguns, SMGs, carbines/scout rifles, grenade rifles)
"Heavy Assault" (sniper and assault rifles upwards to anything heavier like machine guns/rocket+mortar launchers)

...but that would require an incredible reworking of the perk system.

Naky
May 30, 2001

Resident Crackhead

rope kid posted:

Bros, I am thinking of making a supplemental mod as an experiment. The experiment would do the following things:

* Replace Guns and Energy Weapons with (temp names) Precise Firearms and Automatic Firearms.
* Move flamey things into Explosives.
* Re-balance what were previously Guns/EWs with EWs typically being superior versions of Guns. E.g. a Laser Rifle is better than a Hunting Rifle (Precise), a Gatling Laser is a better version of a Minigun (Automatics).

I'm not sure if it will produce good results, but I think it's worth trying out.

So energy weapons are just all around better than guns? If you go that route, I'd probably make ammo for energy weapons more scarce or have smaller capacities. Here's your powerful weapon but use it sparingly. Gives you a reason to loadout with one of each.

The Cheshire Cat
Jun 10, 2008



I always figured the appeal of energy weapons was meant to be the commonality of the ammo - there's only three ammo types at all, so it's very easy to find ammo for your weapon of choice rather than having to either rely on scrounging or crafting with bullet ammo (not that it's particularly hard to find ammo in New Vegas but that's more of a fundamental design issue inherited from Fallout 3). I think the idea someone had that they'd be more fragile (and also more difficult/expensive to repair) makes sense - they're high tech so the parts are going to be a lot more specialized than the older mechanical bits of the normal guns.

It would also be interesting if it was possible to script in some unique and potentially dangerous failures for low condition energy weapons - instead of a "jam", it might catastrophically overheat, instantly dropping durability to zero and dealing fire damage to you.

Cream-of-Plenty
Apr 21, 2010


The Cheshire Cat posted:

I always figured the appeal of energy weapons was meant to be the commonality of the ammo - there's only three ammo types at all, so it's very easy to find ammo for your weapon of choice rather than having to either rely on scrounging or crafting with bullet ammo (not that it's particularly hard to find ammo in New Vegas but that's more of a fundamental design issue inherited from Fallout 3). I think the idea someone had that they'd be more fragile (and also more difficult/expensive to repair) makes sense - they're high tech so the parts are going to be a lot more specialized than the older mechanical bits of the normal guns.

It would also be interesting if it was possible to script in some unique and potentially dangerous failures for low condition energy weapons - instead of a "jam", it might catastrophically overheat, instantly dropping durability to zero and dealing fire damage to you.

I actually think that the combination of 1: Making energy weapons more powerful and rare and, 2: Giving them unique "tics", such as critical failures, would be something I'd be all over. The commonality of energy weapons reduces them to flavor: Do you want to shoot bullets or green balls? There's nothing particularly special about them.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


Naky posted:

So energy weapons are just all around better than guns? If you go that route, I'd probably make ammo for energy weapons more scarce or have smaller capacities. Here's your powerful weapon but use it sparingly. Gives you a reason to loadout with one of each.
Here is the way the conversations go:

SOME PLAYER: "Energy Weapons suck a laser pistol should disintegrate your whole body if the beam grazes your finger."

ME: "Hmm, I see, but then why would anyone tag Guns instead of Energy Weapons?"

SOME PLAYER: "Because Energy Weapons are rare and there's no ammo for them."

ME: "Then won't you spend a lot of the game walking around not using the skill you tagged, much like the original Fallout?"

SOME PLAYER: "JUST RETURN ENERGY WEAPONS TO THEIR FORMER HOLY GLORY, POINDEXTER."

If weapon skills were organized around different criteria (e.g. firing mode, combat style, whatever), EWs could just "be better" and it wouldn't really affect balance because there wouldn't be a skill dedicated to them from the get-go.

Cream-of-Plenty
Apr 21, 2010


rope kid posted:

Here is the way the conversations go:

SOME PLAYER: "Energy Weapons suck a laser pistol should disintegrate your whole body if the beam grazes your finger."

ME: "Hmm, I see, but then why would anyone tag Guns instead of Energy Weapons?"

SOME PLAYER: "Because Energy Weapons are rare and there's no ammo for them."

ME: "Then won't you spend a lot of the game walking around not using the skill you tagged, much like the original Fallout?"

SOME PLAYER: "JUST RETURN ENERGY WEAPONS TO THEIR FORMER HOLY GLORY, POINDEXTER."

If weapon skills were organized around different criteria (e.g. firing mode, combat style, whatever), EWs could just "be better" and it wouldn't really affect balance because there wouldn't be a skill dedicated to them from the get-go.

Ropekid, you've certainly opened a in my brain. Spergin' ahead:

Consider me one of the curmudgeons who didn't mind the relative rarity of energy weapons in prior installments. Big guns had the same issue in FO1/2. To me, this would only be a problem if the game had an "improve as you use" system, a la The Elder Scrolls.

The way the system is currently categorized makes a lot of sense, given Fallout's inherently eclectic mix of weapons. That is, everything is organized by the way it delivers "hurt" to a target. There's some gray area, yeah, but that's inevitable when weapons can only be in one category but are obviously a combination of categories (for example, a grenade machinegun.) It's inevitable that, no matter what titles you give those five categories (unarmed, melee, guns, energy, explosives), there are going to be guns that don't quite fit into a single one.

So gently caress it, let's abandon logic and go for gameplay. The engine doesn't allow weapons to ~*transcend*~ categories, so it's not a battle worth fighting. What we do know is that something isn't quite right, and there might be a way to fix it. So what should be the feature that separates this from that?

Currently, it's how weapons hurt people. That's very logical, but the abundance of every weapon type effectively reduces this to flavor: Do I want to shoot enemies with bullets or green balls? Effort has been made to distinguish each class (energy weapons can't be silenced; conventional ammo has a broader range of recipes) but at the end of the day, it's mostly flavor. This is exacerbated by the fact that energy weapons have been implemented to give the "Energy Weapons" skill usage from the beginning of the game until the end.

Now, knowing that energy weapons are going to be so prolific, we can't simply go ahead with FO1/2's approach, which was to make them techno-relics of mass destruction. I suppose that's about when we get to the point you're at: Energy weapons will be superior to their conventional counterparts, but only just. But still, how will the weapons be categorized? You've thrown "Precise" and "Automatic" out there, and while I feel like there's a better semantic choice, I can't think of anything.

EDIT: I keep coming back to different combat styles as category monikers, like "Defensive" and "Offensive." I imagine a person asking themselves, "What do I use a gun for? Am I looking for trouble? Or is trouble looking for me?" If I want to protect myself, I might prefer a shotgun, high caliber revolver, or Plasma Defender. If raping and pillaging is how I ply my trade, maybe I'm into assault rifles and ammo-hungry weapons. If I like shock and awe and salvage doesn't interest me, grenade launchers and explosives.

Cream-of-Plenty fucked around with this message at Feb 17, 2012 around 05:25

Endymion FRS MK1
Oct 28, 2011


rope kid posted:

Bros, I am thinking of making a supplemental mod as an experiment. The experiment would do the following things:

* Replace Guns and Energy Weapons with (temp names) Precise Firearms and Automatic Firearms.
* Move flamey things into Explosives.
* Re-balance what were previously Guns/EWs with EWs typically being superior versions of Guns. E.g. a Laser Rifle is better than a Hunting Rifle (Precise), a Gatling Laser is a better version of a Minigun (Automatics).

I'm not sure if it will produce good results, but I think it's worth trying out.

I like the idea. I only ever used energy weapons in late game anyway. First dumping all of my points into guns, then later panicking trying to improve energy weapons as EW ammo became more abundant and I hit level 30.

RagnarokAngel
Oct 5, 2006

D:


I'm down with the idea. In my playthrough I tended to only ever use the "precision" style weapons you're mentioning, for both energy and guns, so compressing the skill system down to only having to invest in one weapon skill sounds great to me

Chronojam
Feb 20, 2006

This is me on vacation in Amsterdam
Never be afraid of being yourself!

Precision versus Suppression might be a suitable distinguishing factor. Sometimes you're looking to drop That Guy with That Gun or have snuck up on something you'd like to carefully engage. Sometimes you want to just spray some bullets down the corridor, or hose those men running over the hill with your RCW. Flamethrowers and grenades could be wrapped up in, uh, Pyrotechnics?

Looks like there's definitely weight behind making lasers more finicky, critical failures that empty the remaining charge and burn you could be interesting and dissuade casual use of the high-end stuff. It'd be a "waste" of a mod slot, but being able to also <refurbish> an old energy weapon with appropriate skills at a workbench into a version that won't gently caress up or fall to pieces from use could help them be good late-game still.

Chronojam fucked around with this message at Feb 17, 2012 around 06:02

thrakkorzog
Nov 16, 2007


rope kid posted:

Here is the way the conversations go:

SOME PLAYER: "Energy Weapons suck a laser pistol should disintegrate your whole body if the beam grazes your finger."

ME: "Hmm, I see, but then why would anyone tag Guns instead of Energy Weapons?"

SOME PLAYER: "Because Energy Weapons are rare and there's no ammo for them."

ME: "Then won't you spend a lot of the game walking around not using the skill you tagged, much like the original Fallout?"

SOME PLAYER: "JUST RETURN ENERGY WEAPONS TO THEIR FORMER HOLY GLORY, POINDEXTER."

If weapon skills were organized around different criteria (e.g. firing mode, combat style, whatever), EWs could just "be better" and it wouldn't really affect balance because there wouldn't be a skill dedicated to them from the get-go.

I could see that working, organize weapons into categories like pistols, rifles, shotguns, snipers, etc. If somebody is a quick draw with the Big Iron on his hip, it makes sense that they'd also be just as quick on the draw with a laser pistol, only with with less recoil. Likewise, a cold as ice sniper doesn't forget how to pull a trigger just because it fires plasma instead of JHP.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


Cream-of-Plenty posted:

Ropekid, you've certainly opened a in my brain. Spergin' ahead:

Consider me one of the curmudgeons who didn't mind the relative rarity of energy weapons in prior installments. Big guns had the same issue in FO1/2. To me, this would only be a problem if the game had an "improve as you use" system, a la The Elder Scrolls.
I think the opposite is true: if the player makes an investment in something, they should be able to make use of it. In a learn-by-doing system, the player doesn't make an active investment, so that expectation doesn't really exist.

RE: the rest of your post: another approach (that I took for Van Buren) would be to have a single Firearms skill. At this point in time, I'd still probably keep Explosives separate because they feel very different to use (even if they included Flamers and such). I'd probably cut out a bunch of the weapons and ammo types overall (e.g. .22LR, 9mm, 20 ga., 12.7mm, .50MG and .45-70 Gov't), push some of the current conventional firearms lower and push the EW equivalents up.

The main consequence would likely be that dreams of playing through and ending the game as a cowboy or post-apocalyptic grunt would evaporate due to the clustering of EWs at the top of the food chain. There's no place for AMRs, Brush Guns, Riot Shotguns, or Marksman Carbines when there are Gauss Rifles, Tesla Cannons, Multiplas Rifles, and Laser Rifles taking over.

Firearms:

Tier 1:
* .357 Magnum Revolver
* Varmint Rifle
* Single Shotgun (12 Ga.)

Tier 2:
* Cowboy Repeater
* Service Rifle
* 10mm Pistol
* Sawed-Off Shotgun

Tier 3:
* 10mm SMG
* Hunting Rifle
* .44 Magnum Revolver
* Hunting Shotgun

Tier 4:
* Sniper Rifle
* Trail Carbine
* Laser Pistol
* Assault Rifle (5mm)
* Riot/Combat Shotgun

Tier 5:
* Laser Rifle
* Minigun
* Plasma Pistol
* Laser RCW

Tier 6:
* Gauss Rifle
* Plasma Rifle (similar to F1/2)
* Gatling Laser
* Tesla Cannon

Something like that. It worked for JA2.

thrakkorzog posted:

I could see that working, organize weapons into categories like pistols, rifles, shotguns, snipers, etc. If somebody is a quick draw with the Big Iron on his hip, it makes sense that they'd also be just as quick on the draw with a laser pistol, only with with less recoil. Likewise, a cold as ice sniper doesn't forget how to pull a trigger just because it fires plasma instead of JHP.
As long as you can make late-game pistols competitive with late-game rifles, shotguns, and sniper weapons, sure. That said, four skills is a lot just to cover guns, essentially.

rope kid fucked around with this message at Feb 17, 2012 around 08:25

-Troika-
May 2, 2009

I started caring deeply
about guns since I saw
an anime where wizards
have sex with King Arthur.


If a player wants to protect themselves they're still going to want to use the best gun possible. I have never even touched a plasma pistol or a laser pistol or any other 'weak' weapon except early on in a game where I can't find/afford anything better.

Deleuzionist
Jul 19, 2010

we respect the antelope; for the antelope is not a mere antelope


rope kid posted:

There's no place for AMRs, Brush Guns, Riot Shotguns, or Marksman Carbines when there are Gauss Rifles, Tesla Cannons, Multiplas Rifles, and Laser Rifles taking over.

The schema you posted could actually have some use for an AMR-like weapon in tier 5 or 6 since a flash-suppressed, silenced or semi-silenced long range weapon seems to be missing.


If there's weapons for hunting and a survival skill, then there simply must be tools for hunting Yao Guai, Cazadors, and other beasts of unusual size like a ghost. The weapon could even be made unusually clumsy, forbidding jumping or running while in use, or having to be set up on some mount or some other handicap, forcing the player to crouch, if it turns out that a quiet and powerful sniping weapon is just too useful for many other things.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


Deleuzionist posted:

The schema you posted could actually have some use for an AMR-like weapon in tier 5 or 6 since a flash-suppressed, silenced or semi-silenced long range weapon seems to be missing.
The Laser Rifle is already as "suppressed" as the AMR previously was since the Laser Rifle starts off having a Normal noise rating (instead of Loud), but the problem is less conceptual and more about the number of things that fill a specific role/number of tiers. Let's just look at rifle-type weapons: high-accuracy, long-range.

Tier 1:
* Varmint Rifle

Tier 2:
* Cowboy Repeater

Tier 3:
* Hunting Rifle

Tier 4:
* Sniper Rifle
* Trail Carbine

Tier 5:
* Laser Rifle

Tier 6:
* Gauss Rifle

The EWs have been excluded from lower tiers because that's the exercise: if EWs are inherently more powerful, they should occupy positions above conventional weapons of similar types. If you wanted to re-insert the high-level rifles here (AMR/Brush Gun/Marksman Carbine), you'd get a buildup of role-redundant weapons in the upper tiers. You can shift around the power focus of some of the weapons, but essentially it still becomes a problem of finding "room" for them all to be distinct and have a stepped progression.

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why?! Why?! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market ?!!!


I hesitate to stick my toe into this conversation since I'm new to the system, but it's too interesting to resist.

It seems like energy weapons should have a different "feel" to them than powder weapons -- a different set of tradeoffs. That seems like the problem, the player never really has wortwhile criteria for making the choice for energy weapons.

In f3/new vegas, I can't really figure out what the tradeoff between energy weapons and powder weapons is supposed to be, what the player is supposed to be getting by choosing one over the other. I do *like* that I have to make a choice, but I can't figure out what choice I'm making for energy weapons vs. powder weapons. For me, that's what a real RPG is about -- getting forced to make long-term choices that impact the game.*

In the first couple games, the tradeoff was power early vs. power later, but this doesn't really work because what happens is players just spend an hour grinding respawning deathclaws in Bonetown until they've ground out enough levels for energy weapons skill equal to their old Small Guns skill, then they switch over to the laser blaster and pop everything into ash. More recent games tried item scarcity as a mechanic, but that's also kindof annoying.



So looking at the Fallout universe, what do energy weapons do? Well, they seem to come from alien technology, which seems pretty powerful but also pretty unreliable, since those saucers keep crashing. So I like the idea of energy weapons being prone to critical failures -- jamming, ammo cartridges shorting out, so forth (perhaps something that could be impacted by Luck score?). They also don't seem like weapons that are really concerned with critical hits/precision -- they don't take the head out, they just reduce the whole body to ash.

So my suggestion would be this: make energy weapons have a higher overall base damage, but instead of doing critical hits, have them be prone to critical failures, which can be minimized with Luck in the same way that critical hit chance is increased with Luck. A failure should probably be something fairly minor but still mildly annoying, like the energy cell shorting out and you have to reload.

I'd also suggest making energy weapons have consistent "reduce damage threshold" bonuses, for a few reasons -- it would compensate for the lack of ammo variety, to make them a slightly more endgame-oriented weapon since that's when more baddies have higher damage thresholds, and it would simulate the idea of an energy weapon transmitting its energy through whatever armor rather than just the kinetic wallop of a .223 rifle round.

The net result (ideally) would be that energy weapons would be a better choice for a player that just wanted to spam laser blasts at everything, whereas a player that wanted to go the aimed shot / criticals route would want to stick with powder weapons.

----
*example: My character started with 4 str because I wanted high luck, agility, and endurance because most of the SPECIAL stats are worth having in New Vegas. I'm playing with RK's mod, though, so I can barely carry anything. So I keep drinking whiskey to boost my strength. So I had to recruit Rose Cassidy as a companion . . . making long term choices is what the game's about, so I want to have to at some point make a choice between energy weapons and standard ones.

I just want to have what that choice means (at least in basic game terms) clearly spelled out in a balanced and fair way. RIght now in NV I'm basically staying away from energy weapons because I cant' figure out what the tradeoff is. If energy weapons are just "better" then there's no tradeoff and part of the game's gone away.



rope kid posted:

Stimpaks are also much less common and are often the new "Expired" variety, healing less. DR has been added to Medium armor (in small quantities) and to Heavy armor (in larger quantities). This makes those armor types more appealing, especially against high DAM attacks (e.g. Deathclaws, Brush Guns, grenades, etc.).


And thank you for this mod! It's. . yeah, exactly what I was looking for. It's not post apocalyptia if I'm not drunk, half-starved, and scrambling to hoard food. The level progression feels "right" rather than the ridiculously overfast advancement of F3 (where I'd level up two-three times inside one sidequest). I have to make real choices about what gear to carry or leave behind.

You might want to consider adding carry weight to ammo components (cases, powder, lead). Or I dunno. Seems I can carry around vast amounts of ammo so long as I use the robot to break it all down.

Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at Feb 17, 2012 around 16:21

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


Lead has weight, but cases and powder don't. The conversion process is inefficient, so you lose a portion of powder and lead every time you convert (unlike EW ammo, where conversions are 100% efficient).

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Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why?! Why?! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market ?!!!


rope kid posted:

Lead has weight, but cases and powder don't. The conversion process is inefficient, so you lose a portion of powder and lead every time you convert (unlike EW ammo, where conversions are 100% efficient).

The More You Know! Thanks! I think I was just finding enough ammunition and breaking down enough ammunition that the lossy nature of the process was negligible, at least so far.

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