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bewbies posted:To be honest I didn't really like any of the 3 either. The third one in particular is pretty clumsy, it lacks the sort of thoughtful wit we're used to. But it did happen due to guns. If this guy had only a knife or sword only a couple of people at most would have gotten hurt. You aren't wrong about mental health treatment, but they aren't mutually exclusive problems.
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| # ? Jan 12, 2011 16:30 |
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| # ? May 19, 2013 23:31 |
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Nevvy Z posted:But it did happen due to guns. If this guy had only a knife or sword only a couple of people at most would have gotten hurt. Or he might have used a bomb, and hurt a lot more people.
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| # ? Jan 12, 2011 16:41 |
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Deep Hurting posted:Auditioning some ideas for cartoons responding to the AZ shooting: I have to agree with "gently caress that equivalence". Who on the left is calling for violence toward the right? It's all over the loving place on the right, but it's really not happening on the left. Deep Hurting posted:
Deep Hurting posted:
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| # ? Jan 12, 2011 17:03 |
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bewbies posted:Or he might have used a bomb, and hurt a lot more people. You are really going to argue that lack of gun control prevents bombings?
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| # ? Jan 12, 2011 17:51 |
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Nevvy Z posted:You are really going to argue that lack of gun control prevents bombings? I will as long as you're arguing that gun control can effectively mute the ability of crazy people to produce casualties. Also, "sword", lol.
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| # ? Jan 12, 2011 17:55 |
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I like the Suicide Liberty sketch for the powerful image, but it's a bit tepid as a political statement/metaphor. The first one is false equivalence, don't finish it. The second one has potential but would need a lot of that careful attention to detail you're noted for.
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| # ? Jan 12, 2011 17:56 |
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bewbies posted:I will as long as you're arguing that gun control can effectively mute the ability of crazy people to produce casualties. Also, "sword", lol. I'm arguing that it can help mute the ability of crazy people to shoot people. Australia, a country with strict gun control laws has also banned swords because of a problem with sword violence, so while it may be less likely in America, it's certainly not a thing that never happens. A crazy person might use any weapon he can get his hands on, but a simple unregulated bladed weapon of any variety is far more likely than a successfully put together homemade bomb.
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| # ? Jan 12, 2011 18:02 |
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I think the first one would be funnier if the right had an actual handgun and not just a finger gun, but keep the left using their fingers.
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| # ? Jan 12, 2011 18:37 |
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I'll say the same thing I said in the GBS thread. Which is that I think its a tragedy that you, and pretty much everyone else moves instantly to talking about gun control whenever these sort of awful things happen. My biggest problem with the gun control debate is that its an easy target that takes away from the bigger issue. Every time we have a large visible act of violence perpetuated with a firearm we instantly move to a debate about guns. We have massive gargantuan problems with gun violence in this country with roots that lie deeply in complex issues of race, class, poverty, and a joke of a social safety net. We're constantly having this pissing match about guns and ignoring the root causes of our problem with violent gun crime. Its incredibly frustrating. Nevvy Z posted:If this guy had only a knife or sword only a couple of people at most would have gotten hurt. This is exactly what I mean. We so quickly end up in these arguments of well if it was a knife it would have been less tragic, if only he couldn't buy a certain type of scary rifle, if only people we're only allowed to buy X bullets, if only guns didn't exist. They aren't the most pressing discussion we should be having. Yes guns are dangerous, yes we should regulate them, yes we need to have a discussion about what the details of that should mean but not because of this event. This tragedy should have us discussing a lot of things, most pressingly in my opinion the way we deal with the mentally ill. As I see it, using this as a springboard for a gun control debate is a cop-out. Its a simple way for us to go "well if only we banned guns" or "if only police had the only guns" and instantly put ourselves at ease with what happened instead of trying to answer the much more difficult and pressing question of why this happened and what we can do about it. Id much much rather you did a comic on either our countries poisonous political discourse without the false quivalence or the complete lack of care for the mentally ill. If I had to choose one, I would go with Numero Dos. Stinky Pit fucked around with this message at Jan 12, 2011 around 20:07 |
| # ? Jan 12, 2011 19:53 |
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:I think the first one would be funnier if the right had an actual handgun and not just a finger gun, but keep the left using their fingers. The problem with this is the message becomes "The right blames the left but the left never retaliates or defends themselves in this country". We can debate the validity of that but if he's trying to do a comic about the Tucson shooting it's completely irrelevant. The comics not a bad idea but it needs to focus on what we're missing. As someone said if you could have two sides arguing with each other that the other did it, and ignoring the third option that's unrelated, such as the state of mental health care, that might actually do it for me.
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| # ? Jan 12, 2011 20:23 |
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When I first saw the Liberty cartoon I thought that she was merely disgusted at what she was reading. I thought it made a lot more sense and was pretty good. Adding in the suicide doesn't make much sense and seems extremely hyperbolic.
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| # ? Jan 12, 2011 20:23 |
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I thought the third was the best of the three. In the US we cling so bitterly to our "right" to live by the gun, its only natural that we die by the gun as well. It doesn't matter why she killed herself as much as the simple fact that she killed herself with her own gun.
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| # ? Jan 12, 2011 21:54 |
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How are u posted:I thought the third was the best of the three. In the US we cling so bitterly to our "right" to live by the gun, its only natural that we die by the gun as well. It doesn't matter why she killed herself as much as the simple fact that she killed herself with her own gun. If you use lady liberty you're asking for it to mean something though. If it was a generic redneck maybe yeah, but if you use well known symbols it needs to be more, well symbolic. It's like something made the US (as a philosophical, spiritual entity) commit suicide. At first glance I actually thought the piece of paper was a suicide note, but it doesn't make sense because why kill herself right after writing that they'd take the gun from her cold dead hands? If it's written for the sake of irony, or a last note of defiance, then I don't quite understand the point. It doesn't help it has little to do with the Tucson shooting outside of a gun being used (it's even a different kind of gun). It's just a bit of a clusterfuck and needs more focus than "gun bad". RagnarokAngel fucked around with this message at Jan 12, 2011 around 22:13 |
| # ? Jan 12, 2011 22:10 |
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It makes perfect sense. The US pays the price for being so free with its guns. We love guns so much that we end up hurting ourselves.
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| # ? Jan 12, 2011 22:41 |
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The point of the first seems to be the rush -- at least I've seen on the internet -- to 'prove' the shooter is one of them (on another thread someone posted a blog which pointed at his marijuana smoking as proof he must be a liberal). He's right it comes off as 'the truth is in the middle' though. I get where the suicide one is going, but the juxtaposition of images can only really be described as 'Banksy-like.' It's a sort of jumbled collage of America and popculture and violence that doesn't so much say something as assert aggressively that America is bad somehow.
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| # ? Jan 12, 2011 22:43 |
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I took Lady Liberty as representing the whole of the US populace, and her suicide as representing American citizens killing one another. I don't know, it really worked for me.
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| # ? Jan 12, 2011 22:44 |
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Wise Old Shitashi posted:I took Lady Liberty as representing the whole of the US populace, and her suicide as representing American citizens killing one another. I don't know, it really worked for me. Pretty much. Her suicide representing the violence that comes hand-in-hand with obsessive and unsafe gun policy.
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| # ? Jan 12, 2011 22:46 |
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bewbies posted:To be honest I didn't really like any of the 3 either. The third one in particular is pretty clumsy, it lacks the sort of thoughtful wit we're used to. I don't agree with this shooting having been caused by the shooter not getting proper mental care, though. I mean yes, he was insane and he would've benefitted from healthcare, and it maybe would have prevented the shooting as well, there is just one problem I see with this argument: He was able to function well in society and at least pretend he was a well-adjusted person, so mental help wouldn't have been pushed or forced on him from the outside - it had to come from himself. And from what I could tell he probably thought he was the only person who could see the truth in a world full of blind people. No way he would've gone and look for a shrink, the thought that maybe something was wrong with him probably never occured to him. Basically, saying it was a lack of him getting proper mental healthcare is blaming the system, which is in my opinion not at fault here. The system can be blamed for plenty of other things, anyway. A bit more on-topic: How about instead of Lady Liberty the nine-year old girl with a subtext reading "From her cold, dead fingers"? It may be a bit tasteless but at least it gets the message across in the direct way you were going for with the cartoon. It's also a bit more relevant because it doesn't illustrate anyone having committed suicide, instead it shows how the right to bear guns stripped away the right to live from a child.
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| # ? Jan 12, 2011 22:47 |
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Angry Avocado posted:A bit more on-topic: How about instead of Lady Liberty the nine-year old girl with a subtext reading "From her cold, dead fingers"? I like this idea as well, it would probably cause less confusion and also be much more striking.
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| # ? Jan 12, 2011 22:54 |
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Wise Old Shitashi posted:I took Lady Liberty as representing the whole of the US populace, and her suicide as representing American citizens killing one another. I don't know, it really worked for me. I love the third one, and I read it this way, but I wondered if we have a better representation of Americans as a group. Liberty is definitely a concept; Uncle Sam might be a better substitute. I love the idea though. It's very chilling.
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| # ? Jan 12, 2011 23:06 |
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Angry Avocado posted:A bit more on-topic: How about instead of Lady Liberty the nine-year old girl with a subtext reading "From her cold, dead fingers"? While I didn't find any of Deep Hurting's sketches particularly on point, I'd be weary of so completely demonizing the right to bear arms. Especially in a way that will engender strong reaction by virtue of its visual content (a recently murdered girl). The issue, as I see it, is a lack of checks (mental health in particular). I'd rather see something like a mental health facility with a closed sign, a line of mentally unstable individuals, and then a gun show set up beside the facility. Or maybe a mental health facility converted into a gun show.
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| # ? Jan 13, 2011 01:56 |
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Deep Hurting posted:Auditioning some ideas for cartoons responding to the AZ shooting: I kind of like this one, as it is very apt for the situation and to help alleviate the south park bullshit you can have them pointing actual guns at each other and have the right guy holding a giant pimped out pistol with an extended mag (which the shooter used to double the amount of bullets he got off before he was stopped during the reload, which is probably the biggest "fault" the right has in this deal, that and the giant cuts to mental health care) and the left with a less flashy gun.
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| # ? Jan 13, 2011 02:10 |
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What's to misunderstand with the lady liberty cartoon? Liberty defends the right to bear arms, which ultimately takes away the liberty to even live. You don't have to agree with it, but it's poetic, powerful, and carries a clear message.
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| # ? Jan 13, 2011 03:19 |
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It might be better if liberty had shot Uncle Sam or something. Or maybe liberty handing out guns to crazy people?
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| # ? Jan 13, 2011 03:58 |
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It would be nice if someone did anything to cover the lack of understanding of mental health in North America. Everything else has already been covered. But I suppose that means if you did a cartoon on mental health no one would read it/care.
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| # ? Jan 13, 2011 07:48 |
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I don't want to interrupt the topic at hand, but I posted this in the LF cartoon thread and thought people here might also like to see and discuss it. A lot of modern editorial cartoonists think one of the ways they can become "relevant" again is to make animated, interactive, or othersuch "New Media" cartoons. Personally, I think their irrelevance is due to a general lack of cleverness on their part, as opposed to some failing of the medium. As proof, I cite the fact that "animated political cartoons" is not a new idea, as Chuck Jones and several other animators produced just such a cartoon for the re-elect FDR campaign, on behalf of the United Auto Workers, during WWII: Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhykCuN_BpY Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U3A...feature=related Your milage may vary, but my own opinion of this cartoon is that, while it's pretty slick-looking and technically well put-together, it still comes off as too preachy for its own good, and lacks the humor and timing for which Jones is known to the public, as well as the subtlety of expression and body language I imagine a lot of animators must take notice of. As I noted in LF, if not even Chuck Jones, directing a TEAM of animators, could make an animated editorial cartoon that was inarguably great, what makes these modern cartoonists think they could do better working alone? Deep Hurting fucked around with this message at Jan 13, 2011 around 09:48 |
| # ? Jan 13, 2011 09:42 |
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bewbies posted:About the AZ shooting, the most interesting dynamic (to me at least) is the fact that it really happened due to this individual not getting proper mental health treatment, not due to guns or targets or websites or left wing or right wing. Mabe there is something you could do that illustrates the entire loving country missing the forest for the trees? I got into an argument about this incident arguing that we shouldn't use this as a jumping off point for gun control for a variety of reasons one being that the intended victim wasn't exactly a strong proponent of gun control and I don't like the feel of that, but more importantly because it would be a great opportunity to raise awareness of mental health issues. Maybe even win some gun fans on the rights by pointing this out as a better way to prevent these crimes than more gun control. I am in favor of gun control, but this incident isn't really a good reason for calling for gun control. Very little gun control that would ever pass in this country would have prevented this.
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| # ? Jan 13, 2011 10:27 |
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nm posted:Agreed. Unfortunately, I do not have the understanding of mental health issues to make a good comment about it at this time. I want to finish something by tomorrow, at the latest, and barring some last-minute flash of insight, I'm afraid I don't see myself coming up with anything on this particular angle. HOWEVER, Nick Anderson and Clay Bennett have both done cartoons on it which you should seek out.
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| # ? Jan 13, 2011 11:25 |
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On the mental health angle, it occurs to me that it might be a good place for bringing up UHC, and how if everybody had access to free mental help in the US, this sort of thing might be more easily curtailed. Just a thought... not sure how to connect the two topics succinctly, though. In the meantime, how about this:  ?
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| # ? Jan 13, 2011 12:18 |
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Deep Hurting posted:On the mental health angle, it occurs to me that it might be a good place for bringing up UHC, and how if everybody had access to free mental help in the US, this sort of thing might be more easily curtailed. Just a thought... not sure how to connect the two topics succinctly, though. YES, I love that one. I think it captures the idea of what people are trying to say perfectly. Even if his motivations don't end up being directly inspired, its still a good illustration of what happens when we get super nasty. I do really like this one.
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| # ? Jan 13, 2011 12:54 |
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Deep Hurting posted:On the mental health angle, it occurs to me that it might be a good place for bringing up UHC, and how if everybody had access to free mental help in the US, this sort of thing might be more easily curtailed. Just a thought... not sure how to connect the two topics succinctly, though. I think that one does the trick. The look of shock/surprise on their faces shows that they didn't intend to have anybody actually act on their rhetoric but at the same time suggests that they probably never even thought of the effect their words might have.
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| # ? Jan 13, 2011 13:01 |
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YES. Oh do that one its perfect. On the other 3, the first was South Park Politics (blech), the second I don't think the point was clear, and the third I would like to see done later, but right now it doesn't feel quite right. I think there is a good point to be made about gun violence (Maddow pointed out on her Monday show that the vast amount of US firearm deaths each year are suicides.) But suicide isn't part of what happened Saturday and so I think the point is lost. Worth coming back to, but not now. Really liked the sketch though.
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| # ? Jan 13, 2011 14:00 |
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Deep Hurting posted:
Okay yeah this will definitely stand out even amongst all the existing comics on the topic. Better finish it fast before people forget...
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| # ? Jan 13, 2011 14:12 |
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There's got to be some play in the medical safety net failing to catch him. Maybe something like a circus, with an empty tightrope, with the clowns dressed like doctors holding a tatty, patched up blanket to try and catch him as he falls to the ground/smacks into the cannon?
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| # ? Jan 13, 2011 14:12 |
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Deep Hurting posted:On the mental health angle, it occurs to me that it might be a good place for bringing up UHC, and how if everybody had access to free mental help in the US, this sort of thing might be more easily curtailed. Just a thought... not sure how to connect the two topics succinctly, though. Maybe I'm just partial because I just finished Batman: The Animated Series.
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| # ? Jan 13, 2011 14:25 |
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Deep Hurting posted:On the mental health angle, it occurs to me that it might be a good place for bringing up UHC, and how if everybody had access to free mental help in the US, this sort of thing might be more easily curtailed. Just a thought... not sure how to connect the two topics succinctly, though. I like it. I'd say make him a little less "obviously crazy", or at least elevate that to a comment/point.
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| # ? Jan 13, 2011 14:42 |
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Deep Hurting posted:On the mental health angle, it occurs to me that it might be a good place for bringing up UHC, and how if everybody had access to free mental help in the US, this sort of thing might be more easily curtailed. Just a thought... not sure how to connect the two topics succinctly, though. Yeah, this one is great. Accurate, to the point, no labels necessary, and anyone who's read the news in the past week will know exactly what its about. e: Add Cheney to the lineup behind Rush, but make his shotgun real too. zeek40 fucked around with this message at Jan 13, 2011 around 14:46 |
| # ? Jan 13, 2011 14:44 |
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Deep Hurting posted:On the mental health angle, it occurs to me that it might be a good place for bringing up UHC, and how if everybody had access to free mental help in the US, this sort of thing might be more easily curtailed. Just a thought... not sure how to connect the two topics succinctly, though. This was kind of what I was getting at, I don't really have any good ideas on how you could work it into a cartoon though. quote:In the meantime, how about this: I like this a lot.
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| # ? Jan 13, 2011 15:12 |
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Deep Hurting posted:On the mental health angle, it occurs to me that it might be a good place for bringing up UHC, and how if everybody had access to free mental help in the US, this sort of thing might be more easily curtailed. Just a thought... not sure how to connect the two topics succinctly, though. Most excellent.
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| # ? Jan 13, 2011 15:59 |
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| # ? May 19, 2013 23:31 |
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zeek40 posted:Add Cheney to the lineup behind Rush, but make his shotgun real too.
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| # ? Jan 13, 2011 17:11 |
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