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mustard_tiger posted:Yes that's true, but the aircraft was transmitting a friend-or-foe signal, and the the navy never once thought to broadcast on air traffic control frequencies? They had all the relevant information to make direct contact with the airliner instead of broadcasting to any plane in the area, while the plane was travelling the Tehran-Dubai route which is a pretty crowded corridor. Sorry for the derail. Debate about history is the most awesome derail. I don't know everything about that crash, so it's always good to learn more  I know altogether too much about air crashes though  E: Oh poo poo, new page. Well, if anyone wants to read about an awesome non-crash where a plane flew through volcanic ash to the point that the wings and engine were glowing blue and poo poo, have a look at Speedbird 9. Dudes landed the plane with a windscreen so hosed up by ash they couldn't see through it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_9
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Jul 15, 2011 04:42
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SoundMonkey posted:Debate about history is the most awesome derail. I don't know everything about that crash, so it's always good to learn more Mayday on discover channel has taught me that however morbid it may be, plane crashes will always be interesting. I'm honestly surprised at the amount of airliners that have been shot down throughout the years, including some last decade.
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Jul 15, 2011 04:45
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mustard_tiger posted:Mayday on discover channel has taught me that however morbid it may be, plane crashes will always be interesting. I'm honestly surprised at the amount of airliners that have been shot down throughout the years, including some last decade. There's a site where you can download cockpit voice recordings from a bunch of air crashes. You probably shouldn't find it, there's only so many times you can hear "PULL UP *crying* TERRAIN TERRAIN <nothing>" before you're a bit  The NTSB has all its accident reports online, as someone else mentioned, and those ARE some pretty awesome reading for people who are into that kind of thing.
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Jul 15, 2011 04:47
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Slo-Tek posted:Interesting that the Exocet has carved out such a huge mind share and market share, for being such an utterly marginal antishipping missile. I don't know anything about naval warfare, but I do remember seeing a show about the Falklands in which the great plague of Argentinian exocets was made to be a great bogeyman that would level the playing field. That's the extent of my knowledge. What makes it so marginal? Why do you think it got that reputation? I mean reputation as king swagger cock of missiles.
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Jul 15, 2011 04:50
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rockamiclikeavandal posted:I mean reputation as king swagger cock of missiles. More like it was the only viable option the Argentines had. Conventional bombing wasn't going to work - they had to come in fast and low to avoid British air defences and this cause problems with the bombs arming (even when they were able to hit their targets). Also even with these tactics they lost a considerable number of A-4s and Daggers. Edit: At least that was the perception at the time.
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Jul 15, 2011 05:07
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rockamiclikeavandal posted:I don't know anything about naval warfare, but I do remember seeing a show about the Falklands in which the great plague of Argentinian exocets was made to be a great bogeyman that would level the playing field. That's the extent of my knowledge. Think mostly that it got used at all. Plus, cool name. Exocet is French for Flying Fish, and it sounds great. Sure, sometimes the warheads didn't go off. Sure, they never actually send anything bigger than a fishing boat to the bottom, but drat if 200+ of them havn't been shot in anger at something over the last 40 years. A goodly percentage of those did hit a target.
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Jul 15, 2011 05:11
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Slo-Tek posted:Interesting that the Exocet has carved out such a huge mind share and market share, for being such an utterly marginal antishipping missile.
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Jul 15, 2011 05:19
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Slo-Tek posted:Interesting that the Exocet has carved out such a huge mind share and market share, for being such an utterly marginal antishipping missile. It was name checked in Top Gun.
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Jul 15, 2011 05:43
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The State of Nevada did not have enough people living in it to become a state when it joined the Union. Its October 31, 1864 admission was rammed through by Lincoln both to add electoral votes in his favor and keep the Congress shifted towards the North.
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Jul 15, 2011 05:50
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SoundMonkey posted:There's a site where you can download cockpit voice recordings from a bunch of air crashes. You probably shouldn't find it, there's only so many times you can hear "PULL UP *crying* TERRAIN TERRAIN <nothing>" before you're a bit CVR tapes are like crack to me. I know some may consider it ghoulish, but I find aircraft disasters fascinating. It's a shame that the FAA or whoever basically locked down release of CVR recordings at some point in the '80s or '90s.
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Jul 15, 2011 06:55
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AgentF posted:Ah, but who was the first pedestrian spaceflight fatality? Well my take on it gives the award to 63-year-old Mrs. Ada Harrison, 3-year-old Rosemary Clarke, and Sapper Bernard Browning on leave from the Royal Engineers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-2 Researching that led me to the awesome ->http://londonist.com/2009/01/london_v2_rocket_sitesmapped.php But seriously: SoundMonkey posted:This is purely conjecture, and Iran did their standard dickwaving thing at the time, but I have a feeling that the reason this didn't become an actual war is that deep down both sides realized that nobody meant for this to happen. Not to say that there weren't consequences, but not as bad as you'd think.
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Jul 15, 2011 09:35
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Phanatic posted:Stockdale was brilliant. The man's got the Medal of Honor and *four* Silver Stars, and he has Masters degrees in International Relations and Marxism from loving Stanford. He was one of the first US combatants in the Vietnam war, flying a strike mission during the Gulf of Tonkin incident, and was shot down and taken prisoner in 1965; during capture, angry Vietnamese broke his legs and back. He didn't want them to parade him on television as an example of how good they treated prisoners, so he sliced his head up with a razor blade. When they put a hat on him to cover up the wounds, he beat himself in the face with a wooden chair. He wasn't released until 1973. He spent *four years* in solitary confinement. Woah, thanks for posting this, I knew he was a smart man and had won the Medal of Honor but I never realized the details. SoundMonkey posted:There's a site where you can download cockpit voice recordings from a bunch of air crashes. You probably shouldn't find it, there's only so many times you can hear "PULL UP *crying* TERRAIN TERRAIN <nothing>" before you're a bit The hijacking and crashing of Pacific Southwest Airlines Flight 1771 reads like a bad movie. David Burke had just been fired from his airline job for stealing $69.00 from the company. He asked his supervisor to please keep him on and give him a second chance but the man refused. Burke knew his supervisor took a flight home from LA to San Fransisco every day so he purcahseda ticket and boraded the plane with a hidden revolver. quote:Burke scrawled a note onto an air-sickness bag which read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Southwest_Airlines_Flight_1771 And then there was the Bojinka plot which is one of the most ambitious terror plots I've read about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bojinka_plot
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Jul 15, 2011 09:44
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Ugh, double post.
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Jul 15, 2011 10:00
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Nckdictator posted:Woah, thanks for posting this, I knew he was a smart man and had won the Medal of Honor but I never realized the details.
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Jul 15, 2011 10:50
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Darryl Lict posted:My cousin died on that flight. What a horrific way to die. Wow, I'm sorry.
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Jul 15, 2011 11:14
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Slo-Tek posted:Think mostly that it got used at all. The HMS Sheffield Destroyer would like a word with you. E: Or are we talking a big rear end fishing boat here?
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Jul 15, 2011 11:43
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E: Sorry, double post
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Jul 15, 2011 12:14
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For the PSA flight, how would anyone know what the note said if everyone died and the plane loving exploded? Did someone read the note's contents over the CVR or something??? EDIT: Checked the wiki cite apparently they found the note, thats kind of impressive.
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Jul 15, 2011 13:47
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Sylink posted:EDIT: Checked the wiki cite apparently they found the note, thats kind of impressive. Yeah, as noted previously in this thread (I think) they even found passports from the 9/11 hijackers in the WTC debris.
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Jul 15, 2011 13:58
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Sylink posted:For the PSA flight, how would anyone know what the note said if everyone died and the plane loving exploded? When aircraft, particularly those that are expensive or carrying a lot of people crash they tend to go over the wreckage with a fine-tooth comb to both discover the cause of the crash and to help separate remains for family members. Mostly to help the companies that owned and operated the aircraft in case of a class action lawsuit, I think, but they do it nonetheless.
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Jul 15, 2011 13:59
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Slo-Tek posted:Interesting that the Exocet has carved out such a huge mind share and market share, for being such an utterly marginal antishipping missile. What do you mean 'marginal'? As a subsonic sea-skimmer, it's easy meat for modern air-defense systems, but most of the ships it's been fired at don't have those. It sank the Sheffield, sank the Atlantic Conveyor, hit a number of other ships in the Falklands war, and the Iraqis hit a bunch of ships with them in the Iran/Iraq war. In other words, it's got a proven and demonstrated history of success in real combat. There are a number of competing missiles that don't have that, so it's not surprising that people in the market for blow-up-boats stuff buy one that does.
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Jul 15, 2011 14:31
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Tias posted:The HMS Sheffield Destroyer would like a word with you. Worth noting that of the two fired, one missed and the other didn't detonate. Wikipedia posted:After the ship was struck and her crew waiting to be rescued, S/LT Carrington-Wood led the crew in singing "Always Look on the Bright Side of Life" from Monty Python's Life of Brian. Can't help but feel we've reached peak-British 
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Jul 15, 2011 14:34
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As I read it, one detonated in a pretty critical hit, which lead to the eventual foundering of the Sheffield? I only have wikipedia to go to, though, I'd be happy to learn more.
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Jul 15, 2011 14:54
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Tias posted:As I read it, one detonated in a pretty critical hit, which lead to the eventual foundering of the Sheffield? I only have wikipedia to go to, though, I'd be happy to learn more. Sorry I'm just going by Wikipedia too Wikipedia posted:Ironically, the Exocet missile which hit Sheffield did not detonate, but the missile severed the high-pressure fire main onboard, and the resultant fire caused by burning propellant ignited diesel oil from the ready-use tanks in the Engine Room, and other inflammable materials used in the ship's construction. These fires burned unchecked for a number of days after the ship was abandoned. It looks like it hit the ship, tore a ruddy great hole in the side in a very inconvenient spot and a combination of bad luck, bad training and poor equipment meant the ship was lost.
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Jul 15, 2011 15:23
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Tias posted:As I read it, one detonated in a pretty critical hit, which lead to the eventual foundering of the Sheffield? I only have wikipedia to go to, though, I'd be happy to learn more. Judgement is that the one that struck Sheffield didn't detonate, but that that didn't matter because the impact took out the ship's fire-fighting capability and then all the burning rocket fuel started fires. It was pretty much the luckiest possible hit, severing the fire main and setting diesel fuel tanks in the engine room on fire. The fact that the crew was poorly trained in shipboard fire-fighting sure didn't help matters. The equipment they *did* have, emergency pumps and things of that nature, were poorly serviced and maintained. Shipboard fire fighting is something that the US Navy does *not* gently caress around with, details on why are earlier in the thread. I used to work for NAVSEA, on survivability (we set bombs off next to stuff), and I always thought it was illuminating that the Sheffield took one dud Exocet hit and sank under tow, and the Stark took two, one of which detonated, and made it home under her own power. Probably the best illustration of modern combat ship armor (Not 'armor worn,' but armor of form and mitigant armor), is the USS Princeton, a guided-missile cruiser. In Gulf War 1, she struck a mine in 16 meters of water, the explosion of which set off a second mine a few hundred meters away. Between the different shock components, the ship was twisted in all 3 axes; the bow, stern, and midships were basically all gyrating in circles but with no common axis. This does very bad things to ships, stuff like cracking 8"x10" steel I-beams, heaving the deck upward 20 degrees, separating 10% of the superstructure from the main deck, things like that. Her chill-water pipes were ruptured, so her combat systems overheated and shut down. Her hull wasn't holed, but she still started to flood through burst seams. Her port rudder was jammed. Damage control efforts got her weapons systems back online within 15 minutes, and she stayed on station for another 30 hours providing air cover for the minesweeping and recovery efforts before she was relieved and put under tow. Only three people were hurt. USS Samuel B. Roberts, a much smaller frigate, also struck a mine, which did this to her hull:  15-meter hole, engines knocked off their mounts, the keel was cracked. 10 injuries, 6 minor. Firefighting saved the ship, it was repaired and is still in service. They build these things tough, but more importantly the crews know just what to do when they get hit.
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Jul 15, 2011 15:23
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wdarkk posted:The captain was criticized for being "overly aggressive" by a few people so it might not be quite that much of an accident. In an interesting side note, it may have resulted in the first (foreign) terrorist bombing attack on US soil, at least since WWII: the car of the wife of the captain of the Vincennes was bombed. http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//ITN/1989/03/11/T11038903/?s=pipe+smoking I remember when this happened & it was a breathtaking moment. Until this event, it seemed that US soil was somehow magically off-limits to terrorism - there had been planes, ships, cars, assassinations, the Marine barracks in Beirut, etc but these were always elsewhere. This was the first time I could ever remember an attempt on someone here. It didn't make huge waves in the news at the time.
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Jul 15, 2011 15:43
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Oh, while we're on the Falklands (again), I'd like to point out that British military operation names kick the poo poo out of most of ours, even when the missions themselves don't really accomplish jack. Operation Black Buck was one where the RAF got upset that the RN was going to sail all the way the hell down to the Falklands and have all the fun. Not wanting to look like it couldn't contribute, the RAF decided to try probably the single most longest-ranged, most ill-advised bombing campaign in post-war history. It did use probably the prettiest bomber of all time, though:  Real simple plan. We'll fly Vulcan bombers off of Ascension Island on an 8000-mile round trip to bomb the airfield at Stanley. Sure, that's longer than it can fly, but that's no problem, it can do aerial refueling from these converted Victor bombers we have. The tankers can't fly anywhere near as far as the bombers, but that's okay, because the tankers can also do aerial refueling, so we'll just use the tankers to refuel other tankers. So here's how it went down for a single bomber: Bomber leaves base Tanker A refuels Bomber Tanker B refuels Tanker C Tanker D refuels Tanker E Tanker F refuels Tanker G Tanker H refuels Tanker I Tankers B, D, F, H all RTB Tanker A refuels Bomber again Tanker A RTBs Tanker I refuels Bomber Tanker I refuels Bomber again Tanker I refuels Tanker G Tanker I RTBs Tanker G refuels Tanker E Tanker G RTBs Tanker E refuels Bomber Tanker E refuels Bomber again Tanker E refuels Tanker C Tanker E RTBs Tanker C refuels Bomber Tanker C RTBs Bomber does bomber stuff at Stanley airfield Tanker J refuels Tanker K Tanker L refuels Reserve Tanker M Tankers J and L RTB Tanker K refuels Bomber Tanker K RTBs Bomber, and Reserve Tankers M, N, O, P all RTB Obviously, that's not that practical. 16 tanker sorties for each strike sortie is a huge expenditure of tanker resources, and with 11 physical tanker aircraft they could only support two bombers on a raid. The first raid was a total surprise. There were 5 raids actually carried out. One bomb cratered a runway. It was repaired in a day, and rough-field capable aircraft continued to use it for the rest of the war. War's great at wasting money, but this single operation probably takes the cake.
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Jul 15, 2011 15:56
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Helena Handbasket posted:If we go with "killed by a rocket generally," then the answer is Max Valier, 1930, when a prototype rocket engine exploded on his test bench. He also drove rocket cars: On the topic of rocket cars my favorite that was actually street driven was the Hungerford Rocket which I think may have been one of the first hybrids. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=294058 posted:In 1929, Daniel, Floyd, and William Hungerford stripped a 1921 Chevrolet down to its frame and converted it into a "Hungerford," the world's first commercially made rocket car. The Hungerford was actually a hybrid: it kept the original Chevy engine for low-speed travel, but when the car hit 50 mph, the driver flipped a switch and the gasoline-powered, forced-air rocket engine roared to life. The Hungerford looked like a hot dog on wheels, except the rear end tapered to a point and had five rocket nozzles (four of which were fake). Safety was not an issue: the Hungerfords gave their cars sophisticated braking systems, and built the bodies out of linoleum and cardboard, so passengers could kick their way out of the wreckage in the event of an accident...The Hungerford Rocket was doomed from the start: it got only two miles per gallon, had a disappointing top speed of 70 mph, and left a 20-foot-long flame as it traveled... The Hungerford brothers went out of business in 1939. 
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Jul 15, 2011 16:06
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Phanatic posted:
Thanks man, most informative!
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Jul 15, 2011 17:43
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of tech ownage
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Phanatic posted:Judgement is that the one that struck Sheffield didn't detonate, but that that didn't matter because the impact took out the ship's fire-fighting capability and then all the burning rocket fuel started fires. It was pretty much the luckiest possible hit, severing the fire main and setting diesel fuel tanks in the engine room on fire. Wiki says the Ticonderoga class Princeton is 9800 tons and the Sheffield was 4800. 
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Jul 15, 2011 17:50
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Retarded Pimp posted:Wiki says the Ticonderoga class Princeton is 9800 tons and the Sheffield was 4800. The Princeton wore it well.
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Jul 15, 2011 18:08
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Number_6 posted:CVR tapes are like crack to me. I know some may consider it ghoulish, but I find aircraft disasters fascinating. It's a shame that the FAA or whoever basically locked down release of CVR recordings at some point in the '80s or '90s. It's not nearly as ghoulish, but the appendices of most NTSB incident reports include CVR transcripts. The ENTIRE transcript, not just the few seconds of interest, so sometimes if a plane had issues just after takeoff, you get to see what pilots chat about while sitting around on the ramp. Some of it is a pretty amusing reminder that pilots are in fact still humans. Tower: Hurfledurf 420, please line up behind the JetBlue approaching to your right. Captain: Huh, does JetBlue even fly out of here? What route is it? First Officer: Yeah, I think I heard JetBlue flies out of here now. Captain: Oh, there it is. Okay, following him. Cartoon posted:Now I do get that this is kind of your point but bejeebus what an appallingly poor choice of words. You're entirely right, 'sabre-rattling' probably would have been a better choice of words. And of course not without cause, because christ, a lot of civilians died. Nckdictator posted:The hijacking and crashing of Pacific Southwest Airlines Flight 1771 reads like a bad movie. I hadn't actually heard about this one before. Sorry to the poster whose cousin was on that flight One that hasn't been publicized as much, although is a bit similar, is FedEx 705. Soon-to-be-fired employee boards the flight to hitch a ride to where the hell ever, brings with him a bunch of hammers and a speargun. Once they're in the air, he comes into the cockpit (which makes sense, I mean it's not a passenger jet and they're all buddies), and proceeds to hit all the crew in the head with a hammer. More than once. The first officer and the flight engineer got the worst of it. (Simplified version): The captain and flight engineer went out of the cockpit to go kick his rear end (despite being hit in the head with hammers), and proceeded to wrestle around with him while the first officer did all kinds of crazy stunt flying to try to help them out as best he could (and succeeded, to some extent). They eventually overpowered him while the plane was flying inverted and near-transonic, bear in mind this is a DC-10. Despite the first officer no longer having use of the right side of his body, and the fact that they were way the hell too heavy to safely land (since they'd only burned ~30 minutes of fuel), they landed safely at Memphis. They all lived, but due to the injuries they sustained, none of them could fly commercial aircraft again (the first officer continued to fly small craft for recreation). The aircraft involved is still in use. EDIT: The hijacker's plan was to crash the plane into FedEx's headquarters, while simultaneously making it look like kind of an accident, so his family would get his insurance policy. I seem to recall that he attempted to disable the cockpit voice recorder a couple times, for this reason.
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Jul 15, 2011 18:16
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Retarded Pimp posted:Wiki says the Ticonderoga class Princeton is 9800 tons and the Sheffield was 4800. Type-fart on my part. The "much smaller" one is the USS Samuel B. Roberts, FFG-58, a guided missile frigate displacing ~4000 tons. I meant to say that the Roberts is much smaller than the Princeton, not that the Princeton is much smaller than the Sheffield.
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Jul 15, 2011 18:23
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SoundMonkey posted:It's not nearly as ghoulish, but the appendices of most NTSB incident reports include CVR transcripts. The ENTIRE transcript, not just the few seconds of interest, so sometimes if a plane had issues just after takeoff, you get to see what pilots chat about while sitting around on the ramp. Some of it is a pretty amusing reminder that pilots are in fact still humans. I currently work in flight testing, and the lady who loads our collected data into the database for processing is the archetypal little old lady, but a LOL who's worked in flight test for decades and will casually drop phrases like "tits up." Which is good, because the pilots can say some wonderful things on the ICS. The airplane's up one day, and the pilot, a guy from the 160th SOAR, sees they're overflying this scenic little lake. He says "That lake looks like a great place to dump a dead hooker."
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Jul 15, 2011 18:27
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Darryl Lict posted:My cousin died on that flight. What a horrific way to die. Jeez, that's horrible. My condolences, man.
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Jul 15, 2011 23:28
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SoundMonkey posted:They all lived, but due to the injuries they sustained, none of them could fly commercial aircraft again (the first officer continued to fly small craft for recreation). The aircraft involved is still in use. I used to know one of the guys who had to disassemble that cockpit and clean up all the blood. He told me it was the most difficult thing he did in his entire career.
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Jul 16, 2011 01:12
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Random Stranger posted:I used to know one of the guys who had to disassemble that cockpit afterwords and clean up all the blood. He told me it was the most difficult thing he did in his entire career. Yeah, I saw on the wiki page that the cockpit was 'covered in blood', but wasn't quite sure exactly how true it was, but if it's like you say... god drat. That's some good flying on the part of the first officer though.
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Jul 16, 2011 01:14
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I'm surprised they're still using that plane, wouldn't those manuevers have stressed the gently caress out of the frame?
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Jul 16, 2011 03:15
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2ndclasscitizen posted:I'm surprised they're still using that plane, wouldn't those manuevers have stressed the gently caress out of the frame? Yeah I would have thought so too, I guess they can do enough testing to make sure it's safe or something? In other news you'd be surprised how many currently circulating airplane parts are recovered parts from crashes. Admittedly not like "plane is spread over 2 miles" crashes, but still "plane is a write-off" crashes.
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Jul 16, 2011 03:22
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SoundMonkey posted:Yeah I would have thought so too, I guess they can do enough testing to make sure it's safe or something? That's the stuff that's not counterfeit, right?
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