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Noir desir
Jul 9, 2007

by Ozma


lean gains

eat deep fried whipped cream

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mobiusrage
Mar 26, 2007

Infinite loop of injuries

Been on LG for a month now. So far lost about 2lbs, and all lifts have gone up except Bench (due to an injury).

Only registered members can see post attachments!

Alfalfa
Apr 24, 2003

Superman Don't Need No Seat Belt

How important is keeping fat low on training days? I want to try and hit 4500-5k calories and would prefer to just slam a gallon of whole milk during that window to help out, but that's quite a bit of fat.

Uziel
Jun 28, 2004

Ask me about losing 200lbs, and becoming the Viking God of W&W.

That's one of the things that's debated. Since Martin hasn't said specifically other than fat should be the lowest macro on those days (and there is conflicting info about more protein than carbs and vice versa).

One group of people say that fat should be as low as possible similar to a refeed where you want under 50g of fat (like UD2.0 refeeds), and that this cycling of carbs as well as calories combined with the fasting is the "trick" of leangains.

Many of the people doing Leangains on bodybuilding.com practice that your fat intake should be .45/1g per lb of bodyweight, regardless of training/rest days, and that the cycling of carbs is just a byproduct of reducing calories on rest days. One of the biggest/leanest/strongest Leangains guys on there (PBateman2: http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/PBateman2b2w/) is a huge fan of 1% chocolate milk post workout and has very similar calorie needs to you.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


This is mostly directed towards Uziel but has anyone been able to get Martin's protein fluff recipes to work with true protein? I tried tonight with 50/50 Casein/Whey custom blend with no luck. It's definitely fluffy like a soft marshmallow but nowhere near his results. Used the recommended portions of all the ingredients.

Uziel
Jun 28, 2004

Ask me about losing 200lbs, and becoming the Viking God of W&W.

nbzl posted:

This is mostly directed towards Uziel but has anyone been able to get Martin's protein fluff recipes to work with true protein? I tried tonight with 50/50 Casein/Whey custom blend with no luck. It's definitely fluffy like a soft marshmallow but nowhere near his results. Used the recommended portions of all the ingredients.
I've had no luck using miscellar casein or regular whey or any combination. I gave up and just do greek yogurt + casein or whey and/or peanut butter.

crazycello
Jul 22, 2009


So are there any major differences between the leangains methods and other types of IF? It all seems pretty similar to me.

Uziel
Jun 28, 2004

Ask me about losing 200lbs, and becoming the Viking God of W&W.

crazycello posted:

So are there any major differences between the leangains methods and other types of IF? It all seems pretty similar to me.
"IF" is just periods of fasting beyond your normal between going to bed and waking up. It describes a ton of different approaches that people use.

"Leangains" is Martin Berkhan's specific approach to "IF" that is part training and part diet. The diet portion is based around calorie and carb cycling depending on lifting/resting, and getting the majority of your calories PWO. Martin's "selling" point is that his specific approach worked for him in maintaining a very low bodyfat year round without starving and being glycogen depleted and/or never being able to enjoy food.

Supersheep
Nov 11, 2009


I'm thinking about starting something like this, and I'm wondering how detrimental it would be to have a whey protein shake instead of BCAA if I train at noon. I've read a bit on the leangains site, and I remember Berkhan mentioning you could make due with it, if BCAA wasn't an economically viable option. Would my progress be substantially lessened, if my main concern is fat loss?

Hot Dog Hotline
Jul 24, 2004

Hello? Hello?

When would your feeding window be? Well, regardless, I wouldn't worry about it.

Supersheep
Nov 11, 2009


Hot Dog Hotline posted:

When would your feeding window be? Well, regardless, I wouldn't worry about it.

I guess between 2 pm and 9 pm.

Also, am I way off on my diet? I'm thinking something like:

12 am: Protein shake, followed by training
2 pm: High carb and calorie meal (oatmeal + eggs and cheese or something).
2nd meal: taco wraps or lasagna.
3rd meal: Air popped popcorn sounds good.

On off days:

1st meal: Scrambled eggs and chicken
2nd meal: Chicken and veggies
3rd meal: Chili

This would mean 1900 cal on off days, 58p/35f/7c - 2900 cal on training days, 27/22/51

Vonbrigšum
Feb 23, 2004
Ooh, fancy.

BCAA is recommended before fasted training because it provides sufficient protein without a huge calorie load. You can get enough BCAA from a couple scoops of whey, but whey (especially in some sort of shake) has a lot more calories and is slower to digest. You'd need to drink it 45minutes-1hour before your workout, and it would count as breaking your fast.

Supersheep
Nov 11, 2009


Is this not true, then?

From the leangains website:

quote:

* Ideally, ingest 10 g branched-chain amino acids (BCAA) or 10 g essential amino acids (EAA) 5-15 mins prior to training.

* Alternatively, ingest 30 g of whey protein 5-15 mins prior to training. This will yield similar amounts of BCAA as the above protocol.

I'm getting confused. I understand whey protein is inferior in this regard, but Martin seems to view it as a viable option.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


if you're this concerned about it then why don't you just buy some BCAAs? seriously i've already stated in this thread that a 1LB($15) supply of BCAAs has lasted me over 2 months now.

Supersheep
Nov 11, 2009


nbzl posted:

if you're this concerned about it then why don't you just buy some BCAAs? seriously i've already stated in this thread that a 1LB($15) supply of BCAAs has lasted me over 2 months now.

Maybe in the US, but not here. A 500 g (1.1 lb) pack is ~$65

vv Thanks. Shipping and taxes would probably cost more than the product itself, but it's worth a shot.

Supersheep fucked around with this message at Mar 13, 2011 around 20:45

wils3005
Oct 27, 2007

Remind me again how "Starting Strength" goes?

http://www.trueprotein.com/service.aspx#Faq7

Uziel
Jun 28, 2004

Ask me about losing 200lbs, and becoming the Viking God of W&W.

Supersheep posted:

Maybe in the US, but not here. A 500 g (1.1 lb) pack is ~$65

vv Thanks. Shipping and taxes would probably cost more than the product itself, but it's worth a shot.
Don't pay with your credit card, they just had a breach with their payment processor.

IS IT THE SHOES
Feb 12, 2007
it probably is

Uziel posted:

Don't pay with your credit card, they just had a breach with their payment processor.

I read this in another thread literally 20 mins after making my order.

I just had to replace my debit card a month ago as a result of fraud.

mobn
May 23, 2005

by Ozmaugh


almost every CC company will provide you with free one-time-use temporary card numbers to use for online transactions. look around on your provider's website or call them up. when using online stores other than huge ones like amazon it's always worth the extra effort to stay safe.

ianfx
May 17, 2003



Uziel posted:

Don't pay with your credit card, they just had a breach with their payment processor.

Now I know why I had a bunch of fraudulent purchases last weekend...

Supersheep
Nov 11, 2009


Uziel posted:

Don't pay with your credit card, they just had a breach with their payment processor.

I don't think it would be an option regardless. I just checked shipping rates from the UK, and there's a shipping fee of £30, or nearly $50 . I'm assuming the shipping wouldn't be much cheaper from the US, unless it's some retarded EU law.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.




Dinner last night. It was 2000~ calories or so.

Anti-Hero
Feb 26, 2004
I was raised by a cup of coffee.

That's impressive.

Wamsutta
Sep 9, 2001

We go hard.


Oh man that looks amazing

BadLlama
Jan 13, 2006


nbzl posted:



Dinner last night. It was 2000~ calories or so.

What is this magnificent thing?

DJ Sizzle
Jul 24, 2002

we go (jump through) hoop


I'm on the bandwagon of drat that pizza/taco thing looks tasty.

I'm glad this type of diet is getting some good press, I've always did great with it by accident in my youth because of my work schedule.

I just pretty much had to do this because of my opportunities to eat. Glad to see I wasn't crazy. It works very well for me, I just kind of went on gut instinct and training knowledge and it works out to 90% of what leangains espouses.

it helped me maintain single digit bodyfat throughout the 90s. Too bad I'm 220 lbs and 30% goo now =(

Edit: Also, fasted training is the only way I can drop lbs at any effective rate and retain muscle.

DJ Sizzle fucked around with this message at Mar 23, 2011 around 17:17

pintxo
Oct 22, 2010

by Ozmaugh


new article: http://www.leangains.com/2011/03/in...eight-loss.html

quote:

it would appear as though a lower proportion of lean mass is lost in response to intermittent CR (90% weight lost as fat, 10% weight loss as fat free mass) (21–23) when compared to daily CR (75% weight lost as fat, 25% weight loss as fat free mass) (4,7–16).

mystes
May 31, 2006



With all these different studies doing things completely differently (including alternate day fasting rather than leangains style intermittent fasting) I wonder what it's really possible to conclude even if the difference in lean body mass is real. I suppose its promising, though.

mystes fucked around with this message at Mar 23, 2011 around 22:52

BadLlama
Jan 13, 2006


Does this program work if you only have say a 5 hour eating period?

mobiusrage
Mar 26, 2007

Infinite loop of injuries

BadLlama posted:

Does this program work if you only have say a 5 hour eating period?

I use a 5 hour eating period, has been working just fine for me.

BadLlama
Jan 13, 2006


mobiusrage posted:

I use a 5 hour eating period, has been working just fine for me.

Hmm think I will have to start planning out somethings and try this. What type of foods do you eat on high protein high fat day? Cheese covered meat with more cheese?

Uziel
Jun 28, 2004

Ask me about losing 200lbs, and becoming the Viking God of W&W.

BadLlama posted:

Hmm think I will have to start planning out somethings and try this. What type of foods do you eat on high protein high fat day? Cheese covered meat with more cheese?
Today is a rest day for me and I'll be eating:
Meal 1, 8oz chicken, 2oz ff cheese, one serving BBQ sauce
Meal 2, 10oz 90/10 ground beef, 1/2 cup feta with spices, casein shake
Meal 3, 2 cups greek yogurt, 1 scoop casein, 1 serving fiber one
1850 calories, 274g protein, 58g fat, 63g carbs, 16g fiber

However, Martin has said (I'm currently looking for the source of this quote) that one shouldn't go below 100g of carbs even on high fat days. Until I find the exact quote, the reason given was that most people get bad headaches and feel bad when hitting the extremes.

I ate 350g carbs yesterday, but will only get 50g today. If headaches are the only reason, this is easier for me to stick with for satiety reasons but I'll update the OP once I get a specific quote and reasoning.

Uziel fucked around with this message at Mar 24, 2011 around 12:47

mobiusrage
Mar 26, 2007

Infinite loop of injuries

BadLlama posted:

Hmm think I will have to start planning out somethings and try this. What type of foods do you eat on high protein high fat day? Cheese covered meat with more cheese?

It varies, don't have to be super strict on carbs on rest day, so long as you are hitting somewhere close to your calorie mark and getting high protein. I shoot for around 20% calories from carbs.

Yesterday dinner was:
-20oz of tri-tip steak
-2 servings of mixed frozen veggies with butter
-Sauteed mushrooms
-5 strawberries
-6 oz red wine

Evening snack:
-5 servings of light whipped cream
-20 frozen raspberries
-1/2 cup full fat cottage cheese
-2 servings of whey protein isolate

Also had some almonds, a carrot, some hummus, and some crackers earlier in the day. Macros came out to be:

Fat(g) Carbs(g) Net C(g) Prot(g) KCals
95.61 79.87 48.42 202.91 2118

Often times I do find myself eating leaner meats even on rest days, because it's really quite easy for me to consume excess fat and have my calories shoot up.

Lobster Wiggle
Sep 21, 2004



I'm looking at starting this diet after spending a few months doing LC. LC was fairly effective as a fat loss tool for me, but I've really stalled in terms of gym progress (especially lately) and I want that to change.

I'm 6'1 and about 183 now, but my question is what kind of calorie consumption should I be after is my first goal is still fat loss before muscle gain? I want to eventually bulk, but getting rid of the last bits of stubborn stomach/back fat is my main priority right now. I'm thinking 3000/2000 sounds like a decent starting point, but I figured I'd ask.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


Lobster Wiggle posted:

I'm looking at starting this diet after spending a few months doing LC. LC was fairly effective as a fat loss tool for me, but I've really stalled in terms of gym progress (especially lately) and I want that to change.

I'm 6'1 and about 183 now, but my question is what kind of calorie consumption should I be after is my first goal is still fat loss before muscle gain? I want to eventually bulk, but getting rid of the last bits of stubborn stomach/back fat is my main priority right now. I'm thinking 3000/2000 sounds like a decent starting point, but I figured I'd ask.

This question will probably get asked a billion more times over the course of this thread but the answer is always the same: figure it out. Set a baseline of calories for 2 weeks and if it doesn't work then adjust. You have to understand there's no cookie cutter values for weight loss/weight gain. You'll have to toy with it to get it perfect.

Liface
Jun 17, 2001

by T. Finn


Uziel posted:

However, Martin has said (I'm currently looking for the source of this quote) that one shouldn't go below 100g of carbs even on high fat days. Until I find the exact quote, the reason given was that most people get bad headaches and feel bad when hitting the extremes.

That seems contradictory. Doesn't he also recommend only 10% carbohydrate calories on those days? That would be far less than 100g carbohydrates for most people.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


Liface posted:

That seems contradictory. Doesn't he also recommend only 10% carbohydrate calories on those days? That would be far less than 100g carbohydrates for most people.

I realize who I'm saying this to but don't read too far into it.

I'm of opinion that if you're hitting your macros, cycling calories, fasting, and eating clean 80% of the time then you should be fine. Don't over complicate the diet by over thinking it.

Uziel
Jun 28, 2004

Ask me about losing 200lbs, and becoming the Viking God of W&W.

Liface posted:

That seems contradictory. Doesn't he also recommend only 10% carbohydrate calories on those days? That would be far less than 100g carbohydrates for most people.
Yeah, just guess it depends on if its fat loss, bulking or recomp.

Doc_Uzuki
Jun 27, 2007


I don't really know what Martin prescribes but on my rest days I get around 30-50g of carbs.

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TheFace
Oct 4, 2004

Mom, it's just chicken breast and hard work, I swear!


Once I get this whole contest thing out of the way I'm gonna try leangaining... just had a question. For those of you who work 8-5 (or at least start work relatively early), how are you handling working out in the morning (fasted)? The few times I've done any lifting in the morning before work (waking up at 5:30 to get to gym by 6) I've been way too drained from not really being awake yet. I do cardio in the morning but even then I can't really push myself as hard as I can later in the day.

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