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nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


volatile bowels posted:

So is the point of this program more for increasing strength/numbers instead of hypertrophy and to replace the bulk/cut cycle with slower, steadier progress?

Neither really. The point of the program is to prove that you can gain size without becoming a lard rear end.

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nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


Paulie posted:

I tried the leangains/IF thing a few months back. If this method of eating fits your lifestyle, it's great. I can drink coffee, water, etc during the day, then eat huge meals PWO. I had a lot of trouble doing fasted training, though, and I thought it was something that I had to do (wrong). I stopped doing it when it was clear that I wouldn't make the gains I needed to while trying to do fasted training. If you are going to do intense 2hr+ training sessions, then eat a meal pre-workout. I did drop weight/fat while I was doing IF though, even when sort of halfassing it.
Yeah Martin did state that most workouts should be kept to around 45minutes max. I could see why you did experience negative results working out for two hours. But then again, why are you lifting for two hours? I believe he specifically recommends 5 movements max per workout. I stick to these general guidelines and give myself up to 4 minutes rest on some compound movements and I've experienced great results.

Paulie posted:

I'm going to give it another shot, initially just to recomp/gain size and strength, and then to cut later on. A few months back I emailed Martin, asking about becoming a client, but haven't heard peep about waiting lists or anything, so I'm just going to try and keep up with this thread, his website, and Uziel's log for direction.
In one of his posts Martin stated that if you emailed him after Oct 1st you're on a waiting list and he'll email you as soon as a spot opens up.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


crazycello posted:

poo poo.

I'm seriously lacking in the BCAA department, so I'm just going to have a scoop of whey before and hope my muscles don't eat themselves.

10G of BCAAs is nothing. I bought a pound off TP for $15 which has lasted me a couple months now.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


Nocts posted:

Did you have the same issues with it being a mostly mental thing and not screwing with your physical stuff as much? And were the problems like I described? It just seems kind of different because its sounded like IF was giving you trouble from the very start with regards to digestion, etc, whereas it calmed most of those issues down for me and generally fixed some other issues I had.

If anyone else has any other suggestions I'd be glad to hear them. I guess I'd also add that I'm not doing anything terribly stupid re: diet. I was getting my vegetables in, eating all whole foods, etc.

Log your intake on fitday and post it

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


Paulie posted:

I'm not an expert or anything, but if you are trying to gain I wouldn't train fasted, I'd have one meal pre-wo and then have a huge meal post-wo and then another one once you are hungry again or before the feeding window closes. Lots of milk and protein powder, too.

Have you even read any IF articles or are you just stating your own personal theories? Check out this link.

In viewing the testimonials section you'll notice there's quite a few folks that have great results bulking with IF; including Martin.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


Liface posted:

The problem is that I train at work during lunch. It's tough to bring more than ~1200 calories to eat for lunch every day. I'm going to try training "fasted" at first, with two scoops of protein powder before training for the BCAAs. If I don't respond well to that I'll try eating more calories during the day.

You should eat a huge feast at night. It's probably the easiest way to get most of your calories in. I've had feasts that are 1500-200 calories and it lets me go to bed satisfied.

Speaking of that, does anyone here have ideas for good IF recipes? One of my favorites is fajitas. You'll need;

1LB Ground Beef
Whole wheat tortillas
Mexican cheese
Salsa
half fat sour cream
Fajita mix peppers and onions

1. Brown the beef, drain fat
2. Simmer in the salsa for about 10min on low heat
3. Heat a tortilla, put about 50g cheese, add meat, and fajita mix
4. Enjoy

This will make about 3-4 fajitas total and makes for a meal that ends up around 150g of protein.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


A pound of beef is like 900 calories. Throw that in some sauce and 5oz of pasta and that's nearly 1600 calories in just one meal.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


mobiusrage posted:

I seem to have the opposite problem of everyone in this thread (except Uziel). Eating -20% in a 8 hour window and I feel a little hungry, 4 hour window is much easier. In fact I did it last night and am considering making it a permanent change and just taking two doses of BCAA's throughout the day.

What's your diet like?

The best way to cure hunger is to eat a lot more vegetables. Not a huge amount of calories and fills you up pretty well.

nbzl fucked around with this message at Mar 1, 2011 around 22:02

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


baquerd posted:

Well those are largely foods you would expect to see on a cutting diet for exactly that reason. I bet you don't heap down the potatoes or bread either.

Here's a recipe for calorie bombs:

Whip a cup of heavy whipping cream and a scoop of protein powder together into firm peak stage, roll into small balls and coat with sugar and oats. Freeze 2 hours and roll in peanut butter mixed with protein powder. Coat again with oats, then with pancake batter. Deep fry until just golden brown, then roll in powdered sugar.

Eat one of those.


Do not do this.

quote:

Christ learning to eat a lot is really difficult when push comes to shove. I'm at maybe 1800 on my training day and I think I'll vomit if I eat anything else.

EDIT: And that's chicken, more chicken, potatoes, protein pancakes, protein shake and some bread.

Eating more than 1800 calories is not a difficult task. If it's difficult getting that amount of calories down you should get your leptin levels analyzed. More than likely though the culprit is you're not eating large enough portions or recording your intake correctly. Get a food scale and use fitday.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


This is mostly directed towards Uziel but has anyone been able to get Martin's protein fluff recipes to work with true protein? I tried tonight with 50/50 Casein/Whey custom blend with no luck. It's definitely fluffy like a soft marshmallow but nowhere near his results. Used the recommended portions of all the ingredients.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


if you're this concerned about it then why don't you just buy some BCAAs? seriously i've already stated in this thread that a 1LB($15) supply of BCAAs has lasted me over 2 months now.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.




Dinner last night. It was 2000~ calories or so.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


Lobster Wiggle posted:

I'm looking at starting this diet after spending a few months doing LC. LC was fairly effective as a fat loss tool for me, but I've really stalled in terms of gym progress (especially lately) and I want that to change.

I'm 6'1 and about 183 now, but my question is what kind of calorie consumption should I be after is my first goal is still fat loss before muscle gain? I want to eventually bulk, but getting rid of the last bits of stubborn stomach/back fat is my main priority right now. I'm thinking 3000/2000 sounds like a decent starting point, but I figured I'd ask.

This question will probably get asked a billion more times over the course of this thread but the answer is always the same: figure it out. Set a baseline of calories for 2 weeks and if it doesn't work then adjust. You have to understand there's no cookie cutter values for weight loss/weight gain. You'll have to toy with it to get it perfect.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


Liface posted:

That seems contradictory. Doesn't he also recommend only 10% carbohydrate calories on those days? That would be far less than 100g carbohydrates for most people.

I realize who I'm saying this to but don't read too far into it.

I'm of opinion that if you're hitting your macros, cycling calories, fasting, and eating clean 80% of the time then you should be fine. Don't over complicate the diet by over thinking it.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


Defiant Sally posted:

Has anyone in this thread had much success bulking off this? Considering I dont eat from 1 AM - 2 PM every day I figure I might look into giving this a try.

Also, I lift 4 days a week.

I bulked off this. Rather than doing the +20% calories on workout days I did it 7 days a week. From November until end of February I gained 15 pounds or so with likely 9 or 10 being lean. Staying decently lean was a nice plus but not the main reason why I did it. Eating enormous meals led to satiety, better sleep, and less cheating on my diet overall.

For those asking about working out early morning my suggestion would be 10G BCAA pre workout, then 10G BCAA immediatly following. For every 2 hours until you eat I'd sip on 10G BCAA. So let's say you work out at 6AM.. it'd end up something like this:

6AM 10G BCAA
6:15 lifting
8AM 10G BCAA
10AM 10G BCAA
12PM 10G BCAA
2PM you can break your fast here with food rather than eating BCAAs. This gave me an eating window that went until about 10PM.

That's the typical schedule I followed. Working out fasted is an entirely different world. Give it a shot for a couple weeks before you diss it.

Hot Dog Hotline posted:

I'm trying to bulk and having some difficulties doing it, but I was going to wait out a few months of trying before I started to whine on here. I'm not sure how much choco milk I should be drinking, but I'm trying 1/2 gallon three times a week right after a workout. Haven't gained much weight yet. Need to up calories in some other way or something. I feel/look great though and strength is shooting up.


Post what you've been eating. If you're not keeping track of this on fitday and weighing all your portions it's probably wrong.


mastershakeman posted:

How important is the workout schedule in this? I've been struggling to get leaner just by counting calories, and would like to give this a shot, but I'm intending on doing 3 heavy (2 upper body, 1 lower) & 2 light (jumping & gymnastics holds) workouts a week. I'm hoping to get by doing the +20% eating on the 3 heavy days , -20% on the 2 rest days, and maintenance on light days-think that would work?

I already addressed the first part of your question above but I'll address the gymnastics stuff here. For me personally I've found that if I don't intake a 250-500 calorie carb heavy meal(50% or so) preworkout i'll feel pretty weak during endurance related activities such as grappling, muay thai, etc. Lifting is really easy to pull off fasted and in fact I prefer it fasted but anything sport specific should be done with some food in your system one hour before you do it.


I'll say this again --- a food scale is the best investment you'll ever make. It's $25 for a fancy electronic one at Target. Nobody is good enough to eye food and get an accurate idea of the portions you're putting in your body.

nbzl fucked around with this message at Mar 27, 2011 around 19:10

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


Defiant Sally posted:

Another question: How is this diet for people who prefer a lot of volume in their workouts, like medium weight 8-10 reps, 16 sets? Thats what I do right now and really enjoy it so if I can leave that be Im on board with this.

I use 5 different exercises with 2-3 sets per exercise and it's worked well. Only way to really gauge it for yourself is to try it.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


Supersheep posted:

Is there any rule on how soon after a workout you have to eat? I typically spend 30 minutes getting home from the gym, and don't get to eat until 40-50 minutes after I've finished there. Does it matter?

It doesn't matter. I wouldn't go more than a couple hours without BCAAs at least though.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


nbzl posted:



Dinner last night. It was 2000~ calories or so.

Okay so I've gotten a couple PM's regarding what made this monstrosity so I figured I'd post my recipe.

The crust is a whole wheat one they sell at the local grocery store. The rest of the ingredients are as follows:

1lb 93/7 beef
3/4 cup sauce
200g~ low fat mozzarella cheese
150g of chopped bell peppers, onions, mushrooms

I think that's it. Preparation is:

1) brown the beef, then cook it in 3/8 of the sauce for about 5min on low heat.
2) put the rest of the sauce on the pizza
3) add half the cheese, add the beef, onions, etc. then the rest of the cheese
4) bake for 8-10min whatever the package recommends. I think it's around 400-450
5) enjoy

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


Desk Lamp posted:

Trial and error really. I had a few guesses using my BMR and I ate at what I thought my maintenance for a couple weeks. My weight seemed stable so I tried to bulk off that with a slight surplus. A month later I had lost two pounds so now I'm upping again.

I had gained weight too quick in the past at 3500/day so now I'm trying 3200/day (I was at 2900/day before) @ 6'1/170

This is the only way to know what your maintenance is. No online calculator will be able to give you a perfect answer.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


Numbnuts posted:

I'm just finishing up my first week as well, how do you guys eat so much PWO? I workout at noon fasted with just some BCAAs ingested beforehand, but after I had 1lb chicken breast, 1lb russet potatoes, 24oz low fat chocolate milk, 2 cups steamed broccoli, and 2 cups strawberries which ended up being 1500 calories. Finishing that was a struggle and I ended up taking a huge dump less than 5 minutes after finishing. It's now a few hours later and I'm supposed to have two more 500 calorie meals now and at 9PM and I don't even want to think about food.

Am I just eating too much PWO? Martin said to get around 60% PWO. I'm 6', 180lbs so I should be getting 2800 calories on lifting days I think. Am I off with my estimates there?

What macro nutrients are you missing? Do you have all that food in Fitday? Typically if I'm feeling full I'll use some more calorie dense foods to top off my day. For example whey/casein for protein, cereal for carbs, olive oil/pb for fat.

You get used to the larger meals though.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


Numbnuts posted:

I'm doing 50c/35p/15f on workout days (3 days a week) and 50p/40f/10c on everything else, think I should lower the carbs on workout days a bit?

After writing that post too I felt a little hungry so I ended up eating 1/2lb each of tilapia and pasta so I probably just need to get used to the meals.

Here's what today's totals will be after my last meal
code:
Cals	Fat	Cholesterol	Sodium	 Carbs	Fiber	Protein	Sugars
2764	49 g	395 mg	         2020 mg 342 g	43 g	245 g	113 g

I think you may be overdoing your macros to the extremes a bit. I think it was either Lyle or Martin who suggested staying above 100g of carbs on all days. I'd do something like:

40P/25C/35F non lifting
40P/35C/25F lifting

I'm doing something similar to this and it's working pretty well.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


Geno posted:

i started this last Monday and it's been going good so far. i'm curious about the carb-loading on the training days. his guide says


if i'm going for fat loss, should i still be ridiculous amount of carbs for my PWO meal?

define ridiculous please. post macronutrient ratios, etc.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


Geno posted:

http://doubleyourgains.com/musclebu...roach_Final.pdf


so for PWO, how does 65c/25p/10f sound?

Sorry to be blunt but that sounds retarded. On a 2000 calorie diet that comes out to 125g of protein with 325g of carbs. This diet isn't magic. If you eat excessive amounts of carbs you're still going to get fat. Please see the guidelines I posted above.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


Uziel posted:

Wait, what? Are you not familiar with refeeds? Assuming that the protein amount mentioned is equal to his LBM and he has minimal fat intake and that the calorie intake is slightly above maintenance then he wouldn't be storing much fat if any at all.

If those are the macros for ONLY his post work out meal, then sure. But I can't agree that those macros are efficient for a training day. It all just depends on his ending macros for the day.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


How about we stop arguing and post more food porn.

Dinner last night;




1lb 93/7 ground beef
2 slice cheddar cheese
olive oil mayo
60g bread
250g sweet potato

1400~ calories

nbzl fucked around with this message at May 3, 2011 around 15:56

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


BadLlama posted:

So the last food I ate was at 8pm last night, it is now 9am and I haven't had anything toe at except for drinking green tea but I am feeling very nauseous right now. Is this normal for someone starting out with IF? Can green tea be messing with me?

yeah the green tea makes me feel a bit nauseous fasting too. you get used to it over time if you drink it often enough.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


For anyone following this thread that hasn't been checking Martin site regularly, he posted a great article on Omega-3 fatty acids and how they encourage muscle growth. Good read.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


Desk Lamp posted:

BCAAs are pretty expensive too for what they do (esp. if you're hurting for money) so I probably wouldn't bother with them, mobn.

Huh? True protein sells BCAA's for $15/lb. If he's taking 10g pre workout that'll last him 50 work outs. Which if he's lifting 3x/week it should last 4 months

BCAA's are not expensive.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


Lost-Viking posted:

what if you're already at a BF% that you're ok with, but wish to add muscle. 3xweek gym + 2x jogging + 1 sprint training is what i'm doing currently.

your gains are going to be much more slow if you're running three times a week

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


Honestly, you guys are worrying about PWO meals vs pre workout meals way too much. Just eat whenever you can and just focus on hitting your macronutrients for the day.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


BadLlama posted:

Maybe a reduced insulin spike since your body will have a pretty continuous flow because of the constant carbs? I am just hypothesizing and don't really know anything : /


My question though, what do you gentlemen do if you break your fast very early? I was starving when I woke up today because I had a pretty weak dinner last night so I ate breakfast today. Do you guys try to limit your calories at lunch and dinner or just say gently caress it and eat normally for the remaining meals for the day?

just say gently caress it and return to normal tomorrow. there's no reason to worry about small poo poo like this

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


ShaneB posted:

I know Martin is pretty obviously against protein shakes, and especially recovery shakes, but is there anything objectively inferior to having a protein shake to get easy convenient protein vs. eating a stack of lean lunchmeat or cooking up some chicken? I am aware he states that there is satiating differences between liquid and solid foods, but I'm just imagining times when I'd want to drink a whey/casein blend shake, or god forbid, even something like Cytogainer (which I don't use now, to be honest, but if I'm needing to get a bunch of carbs and protein in the PWO eating phase that sure would come in handy now and then).

Thoughts? Experiences?

No, it doesn't matter. The only issue for some is satiety. If that's not a problem then don't worry about it.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


webcams for christ posted:

I've been struggling with my diet recently. 5'9" for reference.

I did the low-carb diet for about 8 months and lost 80 or so lbs, and then switched to an IF schedule that was modeled after Martin Berkhan's approach and the guide on Silver Hydra's website, which I've been doing since April or so. This took me down to around 160lbs.

In July I worked at a summer camp, and wasn't at all in control of the foods available to me. I subsequently completely fell off the horse as far as diet is concerned and ballooned up to 174-ish.

Since returning from the camp I've had more difficulty than I ever have before maintaining good nutrition and hitting all my macros. So I think I might want to re-evaluate my current plan.

My biggest goal right now is to get down to at least 10% bodyfat.

Current Plan:

Lift Days:
9:00am Coffee, multivitamin
2:00pm ~300 calories of mostly protein and fat, usually a cut of chicken, beef, or pork that I've weighed out, and sometimes green vegetables
3:45pm 2 scoops ON Whey - 220 cals
4:00pm LIFTING
5:30pm ~1100-1300 calories. usually 450-600 calories of oats, and then meat and veggies


Rest Days:
No specific eating schedule- usually just a really light breakfast and trying not to eat more than 1600 calories and keeping it low-carb.


I've been having a really hard time with hunger and cravings though, and have been cheating on this plan this past week. Is there anything I should be re-thinking or just HTFU?

You're eating 1800 calories on lifting days? That's really low. I'd bump up calories on your lifting days. Are you tracking your daily intake on FitDay? If not, then start.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


ShaneB posted:

Thanks for the feedback. It's helpful. And I have craved french toast basically the past 5 years....

One thing I didn't notice in your original post was how much you weigh? 2K calories on lifting days seems pretty low.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


Just for the sake of discussion; my eating window is 4PM-12AM. Sometimes it's 3PM-11PM or 5PM-1AM. It's really just whatever works for you. If you're having trouble hitting your macros feel free to use protein shakes, dirty carbs, etc. As long as everything falls within your macros, it's all good.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


hog wizard posted:

Hmmm, I always thought I'd be ~15% so I guess I wasn't too far off if people are estimating me in the teens.

Anyway, I did that wacky formula and came up with a 1730 calories for rest days and 2500 for lifting days. That seems like a big jump.

I agree with Uziel in regards to not separating the calculation of your different days. How many days of lifting/rest do you have? Your overall caloric intake for the week should come out to below maintenance if you're cutting.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


hog wizard posted:

So if I shouldn't separate my calories (what's the reason for this?), how much am I suppose to be consuming a day?? Am I going by the 1730 BMR from that formula, or the 2500 cal?

Let me try and explain this the best I can... you're still going to use two seperate numbers for lifting and rest days. However your overall caloric intake for the week should be below maintenance if your goal is fat loss.

Example: Let's say your maintenance is 2300 calories.
code:
2300*7 = 16100
If you lift 3 days a week then you should have 4 rest days and 3 lifting days. A basic calculation gives us the following:
code:
1700 * 4 = 6800
2400 * 3 = 7500
6800 + 7500 = 14,300 
A deficit of nearly 2,000 calories for the week combined with 30-45minutes of walking on rest days should put you where you need to be.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


Geno posted:

i've been doing IF for awhile and i feel like my fat loss has plateaued the past month or so. i have some progress pics here.

i've been averaging around 1700 calories in lift days and around 1500ish on rest days. with all the talk of BMR and calorie counting, i realized that i'm eating waaay less calories than i should be. any thoughts?

You're not eating very much. Height/Weight?


For those of you who have been dieting for awhile with no results; please look into Lyle McDonald's diet break article. They're essential for successful dieting.

nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


Geno posted:

hmm, pretty good article. i'm getting a little burnt out with IF so i'll definitely look into taking a week or 2 off and then starting up again where i try and eat more along with IF.

If you're stopping IF because of the article then you may have misunderstood. The basic jist of the article is to eat at maintenance for 10-14 days then go back to dieting.

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nbzl
Apr 5, 2002

Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.


ShaneB posted:

My major issue with IF has been packing in enough calories, even on off days. I made some protein fluff last night and had to force it down before 9pm... and my total for the day was only 1,500 calories.

I know people say you can eat dirtier on IF, but when you are trying to keep carbs or fats below a certain threshold that becomes VERY DIFFICULT, IMO.

Eating protein fluff when you're trying to force down calories is a Bad Idea. Protein Fluff is what I would use on my cut to fill my stomach so I wasn't hungry when eating at a deficit. Stick to liquid calories.

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